What makes the "correct" cards show to us?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 01 Sep 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Inana	01 Sep 2003
Im not shure if this has been discussed before, but seems im not finding it now. This question has come to my mind while answering this thread: "Dealing cards for a reading" http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17156 We read tarot. We all have different beliefs, different ways to understand tarot. But we all agree it works. If a reading is working good, is not only because the qualities of the reader. Lots of people arent psychics but can give good readings. So, the selected cards for the reading have an important place in the process. We all have different ways to shuffle, mix, cut and pick the cards. But still... if the readings are working is because we are picking up the "correct" cards. So... im wondering what makes we choose those cards and not another ones? Do you think is something totally random and doesnt matter wich cards we take? Are those cards calling us? Is our subconscient who picks? Is predetermined somehow? I need to think about it now....

fairyhedgehog	01 Sep 2003
I have two theories. The one I really believe is that the fall of the cards is random. Readings work due to the complexity of the archetypes and the awesome ability of the human brain to create stories which explain and make sense of things. The other theory is that the cards know how you are going to shuffle and pick them, so it doesn't matter how you choose the cards, it will have been meant to be. While I don't believe this at a deep level, I find it useful to act 'as if' I believe this while I'm using the cards. Otherwise I can't create stories that make sense. I also believe that human beings find that too much reality is bad for us. But this is all just my view.

Elle	01 Sep 2003
Very enlightening and succinct, fairyhedgehog. I agree wholeheartedly. I also like the theory of the subconscious at least involved in the reading of the cards, if not in the choosing of them. Warmest, Elle

firemaiden	01 Sep 2003
Well, question for you: is there such a thing as '' the wrong cards"?

Maan	01 Sep 2003
Good question one that i have answered for myself in hunderds and hundreds of ways. lately i keep thinking that since i believe everything is connected and since i live in this connection thats why the right cards keep appearing. Its like a "trick" to cheat the universe to tell us what happening. Everything is connected and in a way everything has its purpose. So i see the cards as a way to get is insight in the lessons and opportunities that the universe keeps giving us. I hope i explained it well..its a difficult subject and what i try to tell is more of a feeling than something else...i would not even get it right in my own language. Love Maan

Scarletpeaches	01 Sep 2003
Yay! A question prompted by one of my threads. I feel so proud! *Wipes tear from her eye* As for being 'fated' to pick cards, I think all of the cards would be relevent to a querent in some way, so it doesn't matter which ones we pick. The ones we end up with merely give us PART of our life to focus on. I think it's true what was said, there ARE no wrong cards. However, how does that explain getting the same card two or three readings in a row? This has happened to me even though I only got my Mythic deck a week or so ago! Perhaps if there is something we REALLY need to work on, for the sake of our souls, spirit, or even sanity, fate does then step in and say, you'll pick that card again because I'm going to guide your hand. If the issue is that important and we need a wake up call, maybe fate gets sick of waiting for us to notice and takes over momentarily!

Astra	02 Sep 2003
I've always figured that at some level you "know", if not what cards are going to come up as the result of any given shuffle, at least that THIS is a good place to stop, and you quit shuffling at that point. This works even with computer generated shuffles - programs which don't offer multiple shuffles tend to ask you to concentrate on timing and click when it "feels" right. I've always felt that people whose reading ritual includes a specific number of shuffles must have a much harder time with readings (although I may be wholly wrong on that one).

matfav	02 Sep 2003
synchronicity of action, the cards mirror our energy trust the cards

fairyhedgehog	02 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Scarletpeaches I think all of the cards would be relevent to a querent in some way, so it doesn't matter which ones we pick. I think that too. I think that is why I like Tarot over oracle cards - it has such a weight and depth of meaning that any card at any time can have something to say to us.

jog1118	02 Sep 2003
"but here's my side of the coin: i do not believe in chance nor destiny...what we reap, we sow. its the same with the cards, no matter who shuffles / cuts / deal the cards it will always portray the current situation and probable outcomes for the querent. its as if the whole universe prepares for every single tarot reading done everyday in order to present an accurate picture." - from my post in this thread: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&postid=176525#post176525 :smoker:

jmd	02 Sep 2003
Here is another wonderful thread, started by AmounrA many moons ago, which also touches on similar questions: What makes Tarot work? Enjoy...

Athara	02 Sep 2003
But maybe the cards are just a guideline to what we already know... Maybe every tarot-reader has a psychic ability, however small, and can answer the querents questions, no matter what cards they draw. They just need something to focus on... Did that make sense? Disclaimer: I'm not saying that that's what I believe, but it is something I've been wondering about for some time now...

Alissa	02 Sep 2003
This question has bothered me a lot in my own Tarot practice. I used to shuffle until it felt "right". Had great results. Then, I started second guessing that inclination. "Was it right yet?" ... maybe one more shuffle. But what if I should have stopped on the shuffle before, because those were "right?" The doubts mounted. Lately, before reading I shuffle a few times, then stop and draw from anywhere in the deck for each card to be laid. I still don't know if what I'm doing is "right," but it's made me happy. I inwardly rebel against the idea that it doesn't matter what cards are laid down, that we will find meaning in anything slapped on the table. Something about that feels like "gratutious" reading to me, for lack of a better word ... that the sacred geometry of chance is negated because every card would be correct.

jmd	02 Sep 2003
Given a particular reading, it may very well be that each and every card informs the situation, and that the Magician, if drawn, would allow us to gain insight into that specific area (how the querent is, of needs to, focus on the elements of the situation, or work with them, or isn't paying attention to them - these, in other words, are the possibilities, amongst others, the specific card may indicate). The range each card may point towards, however, will be different. Here is where the 'right' card is where the shuffle and selection occurs: the card which will permit the reader to focus on aspects which will be of greatest benefit for the querent. In this sense, it may matter which cards we select - though each card may give insights into the situation at hand.

Inana	03 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Well, question for you: is there such a thing as '' the wrong cards"? To be honest, Im very confused about this. My rational side needs to know the "why" and "how" of everything, and is always ready to point with her finger saying "Come on, thats ridiculous, you dont live in a fairytale". But if i believe every card in the deck would be suited for a specific reading, that makes me feel like if tarot was a big lie. Dont know how to explain it, is like when skeptics say: "But everyone has problems, changes and decisions to take!!" they say that defending that any reading could stand for anyone (or is it everyone? well hope you understand what i want to say). And then... wheres the point in doing readings? Trying to put the thoughts in order? Look for some confort or having things to think about?

Inana	03 Sep 2003
Well... like said above, is hard to choose an explanation here. So thanks all for your answers, is valuable to have more points of view to think about. Athara: Using the cards as something to focus on is what a tarotist said once to me when she saw the expression on my face looking te amounth of reversed cards on the table. After she said: "I dont really read the cards" and i was like"uh?". JMD: I see your view is a bit like the middle path. Interesting. So, we mainly have two explanations, as Fairyedgehod points: a) Dont matter wich cards one pick. All are valuable and relevant enough to make sense of them in any reading. This sounds plausible and somehow sad. b)The cards are chosen because our subconscious, entwined energies, synchronicity... This is more hard to believe if your system of beliefs is as chaotic & unstable as mine is. I still cant decide one or the other way. Why is always so difficult find answers that fit to us completely? Quote: Originally posted by fairyhedgehog I also believe that human beings find that too much reality is bad for us. But this is all just my view. This reminds me of a sentence in a novel i was reading yesterday, when talking about the way science explain the universe, one of the characters says: " From all the possible paths, mankind has chosen the more sad of all".

M-Press	03 Sep 2003
Thank you all for this thread... I find it incredibly valuable... To tell you the truth, I have many times second-guessed the cards, and I'm not sure i always believe them? many times they are right (some specific cards are ALWAYS right, some not...) But nevertheless, i'm well deep in it! An other issue I'm constablty searching, is when something is a sign, an omen, or i find meaning in it because i'm looking for it. Sounds familiar? What I make of it though is, that whether something is there to tell me this or the other way, I experience a process when i come to this point. I walk a certain path, the path of a seeker... And this is what counts... In tthis case, i would then agree, that there can be NO wrong cards, since everycard will make us do that 'work". why some cards do come up all the time? (I had 6 of pntacles this week threee time s in my daily card reading!). Well, I do believe that we have some sort of power...we know how to be atracted to the things we should be aware off.. In a way, i know it sounds conflicting... But what beauty!!!!!! :-)

Macavity	04 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by fairyhedgehog I have two theories. The one I really believe is that the fall of the cards is random.... The other theory is that the cards know how you are going to shuffle and pick them... Excellent points, hopefully not destroyed by creative snipping! ;) I've noticed that "truly" random cards seem to give more "meaningful" readings e.g. even when (particularly when?) chosen by computer. Part of this might reflect my poor shuffling technique! But I do suspect one can make useful connections to/from... anything. Also e.g., if one uses (as I do) a keyword system (Crowley-Thoth) it seems to be invariably possible to make some sort of memorable connection between keywords and card image. The more "random" the image (Haindl, M.Petersen, ink blots, blank cards* etc.) the more fun, and indeed relevant perhaps? }) Perhaps the key to a divination system is to have sufficient archetypes (e.g. in a Tarot deck) to cover the possibilities. I suspect history and human nature had a hand in ensuring this? Or, as one magician said, "Look hard enough at anything and you will see... everything". I see no conflict between the two notions (above). I dare say one could come up with some sort of fancy explanation for shuffling, involving notions like "catastrophe theory", "spontaneous symmetry breaking" to explain (2) above? Who knows? :D Macavity P.S. *I suspect completely blank cards aren't really random enough? ;)

Umbrae	04 Sep 2003
There is a point in randomness where you can detect patterns, a point at which statistics go beyond mean-variance and standard deviations. Where chaos breaks down. This is a point that some call magic, others – God. Quote: Originally posted by Inana My rational side needs to know the "why" and "how" of everything, and is always ready to point with her finger saying "Come on, thats ridiculous, you dont live in a fairytale". Why does your rational side need to know? That’s the biggest question asked…not why the cards…that’s easy. Why the need to rationalize, justify, intellectualize? Why. And what you do you mean, ‘you don’t live in a fairytale?’ Why not? Are you absolutely sure? As for choosing the ‘saddest path of all’, do you know how this story ends? Without misfortune, danger and distress, there would be no story. Step out of your front door – even if you live in downtown Moscow – you just stepped into the dark forest (where all stories begin)… Remember – reading tarot for others is Heteroscedascity in action. Heteroscedascity is when the uncertainty (variance of the residuals) at each x-value is not the same. They come to us because of it, and we read because of it, and readings work because of it…and yet… statistics and data have nothing to do with the reading. :smoker: Quote: Originally posted by Alissa …that it doesn't matter what cards are laid down, that we will find meaning in anything slapped on the table. Something about that feels like "gratutious" reading to me, for lack of a better word ... that the sacred geometry of chance is negated because every card would be correct. I was thinking of making a deck that had 7 cards. For doing 7 card spreads, and you just glue them to your spread cloth…you’d never have to shuffle (roflmao).

Shoshin	04 Sep 2003
My $.02 :) I tend to agree with the theory that our subconcious is aware of the positions of the cards in the deck at all times no matter how many times we shuffle. It will then lead us to the "right" cards. Of course our concious mind will filter out such nonsense as card positions in a pack. It's got more important things to do. Like typing messages to forums for example :) The subconsious never forgets.

Dark_angel	04 Sep 2003
Maybe chaos theory applies to tarot and other forms of divination? You know, a butterfly flaps its wings in Central Park and there's a thunderstorm in Hong Kong? Small random acts (eg. shuffling, thinking of things while you shuffle, stopping at a particular point) create a seemingly unrelated result (a meaningful reading)? If you think about it, when people (you, me, the querent) are shuffling the cards, thoughts go through your head, your hands place the cards in different places, maybe dropping a card, you stop shuffling at a particular point, you select the cards in a certain way, you choose a particular spread. All of these seemingly unrelated things (unless you have a prescribed pattern) are controlled (not necessarily consciously) by your mind. This is where the issues about the question asked originate, so the question is affecting which cards are drawn. This may seem dumb, but its how I see it and explain it.

Little Baron	04 Sep 2003
I think that all cards are an equal possibility and if you are reading from a deck that has some depth and that you get a long with, there will always be a detail within each card that may ring true and therefore, be the right card. What is nice is that these details change with each querant we read for; we notice things we have never noticed before. Yaboot

Umbrae	04 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Yaboot001 …there will always be a detail within each card that may ring true and therefore, be the right card. What is nice is that these details change with each querant we read for; we notice things we have never noticed before. But what about reading with playing cards, runes ogham, entrails or bones…there are no details, no generalized statements to use for an ‘out’. Truly the question is not “What makes the correct cards show?”, but how does divination work? Dark_angel nailed it (IMO)…

Little Baron	04 Sep 2003
Yes, I think that she probably did. I was thinking purely about the decks I use. Interesting to read everyones points. Thanks Yaboot

Dark_angel	04 Sep 2003
Thanks for the votes of confidence! I'm a total beginner (maybe 3 months experience) so to get support from people who know what they're talking about is such a boost! xxx

full deck	05 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Truly the question is not “What makes the correct cards show?”, but how does divination work? That's a good question. I'm not sure myself but I consider that in divination we have: -The known -the unknown and the difference between the two can be described as a function of time (assuming we ever *really* know something). We could quantify known and unknown with something simple, i.e., the winning lottery ticket for tomorrow but this whole process makes me wonder greatly as to the true nature of time. Since time seems to be a perceptual experience, perhaps we are not really experiencing time as it really is or maybe what we consider "the passage of time" is something a bit different than what a clock shows us. I know Einstein considered the speed of light an absolute limiting factor in his famous relativity theory but later, when confronted with demonstrations of quantum events, he found them quite disturbing, "spooky", since they seemed to be beyond such limitations as the speed of light. Perhaps Tarot and other various tools help enable us to do certain things that are beyond conventional time, much like the bizarre quantum events that Einstein encountered. Mind you, it's just a thought.

lawguy51	05 Sep 2003
Computer glich....somehow posted twice, sorry, see original message below.

lawguy51	05 Sep 2003
Oooh, good thread. I stay away for a few days and miss all the action. It took me a while but I got past this question a while ago. I shuffle until I hear a little 'enough'. A card drops out, I stick back in. Sometimes I fan, other times I flip. I use different decks. I use different spreads. I use different interpretations. And none of this bothers me because I believe that no matter what I do or try not to do, the right cards come up. I just may be up to the challenge of coherently reading them. And they are the right cards because they are the ones that were turned over at that time in that room from my hand or the hand of the querent. When I look at a spread I have full confidence that these are the right cards. And if i can't figure out what they are trying to tell me, well, too bad for me. I asked Mary Greer at the very end of the 3 day workshop I took this summer, "So Mary, how does this all work?". She said, "I don't know, it just does." That was good enough for me. Lawguy51

Macavity	05 Sep 2003
Perhaps advocates of ideas that quantum physics "proves things" might find this article interesting: I'm sure it includes a bias (notleast in the language used) but suspect no worse than some of the statements the author is criticising? ;) I think the difficulties in understanding many things (even for those who deal with them on a daily basis) e.g. "simple" wave-particle duality should not be underestimated. The article, though "colourful" in presentation, might help with (at least) some suggestions for further reading? I have no idea how Divination works... but simply, I don't think it is down to (long-suffering?) "quantum physics". }) And perhaps an experimentally reproducible theory might prove even more interesting? Macavity

full deck	05 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Macavity . . . And perhaps an experimentally reproducible theory might prove even more interesting? Hehe, yes, however I'd much rather have someone figure out how to make a practical hydrogen engine or discover cold fusion first so that we could finally stop burning oil. :-) I read science-related sites off the internet so I read about people trying to make computers that use a "quantum circuits" and other such things, however, until I read that article that Macavity mentioned, I had no idea that the mention of quantum theory was "frequently in New Age and modern mystical literature" since I don't read that crap. Despite that, I don't consider that synchronicity so much as my bad luck!

Inana	06 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Why does your rational side need to know? That’s the biggest question asked…not why the cards…that’s easy. Why the need to rationalize, justify, intellectualize? Why. Isnt it a human need? We grow in a world where since kids we learn to ask about everything to find the properly explanations, to understand why and how the things work. Of course, that makes faith or believing more difficult when talking about subjects like tarot cause one comes with more doubts across. Im finding very interesting this stuff about chaos theory... but im not sure about what is it. Is random conections between things in the universe? Totally no logic at all? And whats heteroscedascity? Macavity, that article seems interesting to give a look at. Ive heard about quantum on some ocasions like the point that explains the connections that make tarot and other divination systems to work, but i dont think physicists agree much on this. Full Deck: Are you suggesting that time is not lineal at all? Its really interesting and usefull to see all this different points of view and theories... Many different options and thoughts.

full deck	07 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Inana Full Deck: Are you suggesting that time is not lineal at all? I'm suggesting that one important consideration as to why some of the aforementioned phenomena work seems to envolve time and what I've experienced and read about seems to suggest that time may not be as linear as we perceive it to be. This is simply a thought that has occurred to me and I intuitively suspect that this is so. What I've read about experiments in quantum theory naturally leads me to wonder about it's use in attempting to explain why certain things occur. That does not mean that I'm convinced that it explains everything or *why* things happen. How is it that I can pull cards that are downright uncanny in terms of meaning and context? I know that many in the forum have had the same experience so I don't need to explain that remark. So far there is no real theory or idea that can explain such. That's one reason I keep working with Tarot since it seems to point to *something else* but I can not rightly say what.

M-Press	07 Sep 2003
Regarding our very interesting conversation here, i would like to point out a series of articles by Gerald Schueler, Ph.D. © 1997 (a bit long, but readable...),One of them, #7 is titled: "Chaos and the Psychological Symbolism of the Tarot". How appropriate! here are the abstracts and links of 3 of those articles (if you change the single digit number in the addreess, you get to the rest... Well, not exactly "leisure time reading", but, then why not??? :) http://www.schuelers.com/chaos/chaos1.htm 1)Abstract. One of the important findings of modern chaos theory is that seeds of order seem to be embedded in chaos, while seeds of chaos are apparently embedded in order. Systems that are stable in relation to their environment can become unstable. Systems that are unstable can return to stability. Another important finding is that the behavior of a system in stability and its behavior after becoming unstable are acausal. These findings can be transposed to Jungian psychology by assuming the psyche to be a dynamic dissipative system as defined in chaos theory. The psyche functions in our causal space-time continuum via the conscious ego, but also functions in a psychic continuum which is wholly unconscious to the ego. Events that intercept both continuums are acausal and are said to be synchronistic. This paper investigates the relationship between the conscious ego (order) and the personal and collective unconscious (chaos). It proposes that Jung's personal unconscious is a psychological 'edge of chaos,' a psychic region of complexity bridging the acausal gap between the collective unconscious and the conscious ego. http://www.schuelers.com/chaos/chaos5.htm 5)Abstract The concept of symbiosis is extended to Jungian psychology, where the ego and Self are considered as two living symbiotic systems. The ego and Self appear to form a symbiotic relationship of continuous and obligate mutualism. The ego and psyche are both considered to be dissipative systems as defined in modern chaos theory. Dreams are shown to be feedback loops from the Self to the ego. Phase locking or entrainment is one possible outcome of the symbiotic relationship between the ego and the Self. During the first half of life, the ego develops relative independence. The primary feedback loop operating is the dream and the ego is drawn back to the Self during the second half of life through entrainment. Mental health, during the second half of life, can only be maintained by the ego becoming conscious of this relationship, and deliberately encouraging and enhancing it. An optimum level of conscious awareness is required because too much can result in inflation, while too little can result in alienation, and both of these extremes can easily become pathological. The ultimate goal of this symbiotic relationship is individuation. http://www.schuelers.com/chaos/chaos7.htm 7)Abstract. The Tarot deck contains archetypal symbols that can be related to the analytical psychology of the Swiss psychologist, Carl Jung. The Tarot deck, especially the major arcana or trump cards, can be used effectively in therapy. The client, with the assistance of the therapist, conducts a reading or uses several cards to tell a story and then discusses possible meanings of the symbols in his or her own words. The therapist then relates the symbolic meanings given by the client to the client's problem in much the same manner as in Jungian dream analysis. This therapeutic process can be explained by using a chaos model. Using a chaos model of therapy, a period of psychic instability is deliberately induced by the therapist through stimulation of the imagination via the Tarot symbols. Concentration on the Tarot symbols induces bifurcation points that the therapist then uses to direct change toward desired attractors. This is similar to the well-known techniques of paradoxical communication, paradoxical intervention, and prescribing the symptom, all of which induce a temporary condition of psychic instability that is required for a bifurcation.

full deck	07 Sep 2003
Wow, thanks M-Press for the links. It will take me a while to peruse these but I will. It looks really fascinating! I just hope the author is not some new age crack-pot . . .

M-Press	07 Sep 2003
Ha...ha... i doubt it! He is a first rate professor of Psychology... I thought that would make a complementary reading to your science articles...! Kali dinami!

M-Press	07 Sep 2003
- ouuups! computer glitches, it's called?????

Inana	08 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by full deck I'm suggesting that one important consideration as to why some of the aforementioned phenomena work seems to envolve time and what I've experienced and read about seems to suggest that time may not be as linear as we perceive it to be. This is simply a thought that has occurred to me and I intuitively suspect that this is so. This is a very interesting thought. Im thinking... maybe... time is more like a web, but we only walk through it in one direction, limiting our perception or knowledge to the area where we are, to say it someway. Then divination systems allow us to give a glance to the other areas... but still the conection... mmmmmh babling. M-Press, thanks thanks thanks for those abstracts. Interesting articles. Will read thorugh the links when having more free time. Is not easy to read about those subects in a foreign language.

M-Press	08 Sep 2003
Some times, i feel that something in me (i mostly read for myself), has the power to bring up the right cards, especially regarding issues that I know "I already know". Those "right cards" were never out of the blue, or like a huge surprize. It's like I have been expecting them. so, what comes first, the egg or the chicken? I would agree about the time issue, that it might not be so linear, but then again, i am into astrology, and time there is very linear. I did have readings given to me though, and i feel that they were right for times to come. As if the time issue there was not as central... and i know thet there is "a lot" here, but do you think there is one "option" for the future, or many? All tarotists will say that the cards will show the outcome, if one follows a certain way, but how are the cards related to the "other" possible paths? yea, yea....I have to look again at those articles, as well... ;)

full deck	08 Sep 2003
Here is a nice link to a more practical discussion of quantum theory and it's history. http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/quantum/inthebeginning.jsp Mind you, Max Plank did not shuffle cards but he did come upon something interesting . . .

Alissa	08 Sep 2003
What fascinates me, in correlation to the subject of time being nonlinear, is how the concept of karma is effected. Karma presupposes a linear sequencing of events. But, I also have this sneaking suspiscion that time is nonlinear. And, that it's only because our human perception must see it as linear, in order to move through it that way in life by the organic (Universal) laws of this reality, that makes it seem so. But, when you follow the structure of nonlinear time ... that means Karma is playing out simulataneously, in every lifetime you can ever achieve, synchronistically. Which baffles me! :D (Does this mean that every day, in every moment, you can chose to fix anything and everything you ever felt the need to about yourself???)

M-Press	11 Sep 2003
From the link provided by Full-deck (thanks!): "Quantum theory says that what happens to any individual photon is genuinely and inescapably unpredictable. It has a 95 per cent chance of being reflected, and a 5 per cent chance of being transmitted or absorbed, and that's all there is to it. There's nothing about any photon, no secret property or hidden clue, that can tell you any more precisely than that what it will do. The unpredictability is innate." From the link provided by me: "One of the important findings of modern chaos theory is that seeds of order seem to be embedded in chaos, while seeds of chaos are apparently embedded in order. . . . . "Modern science has discovered that chaos and cosmos exist together even at the quantum level. The quantum foam of science is comparable to the chaos of alchemy. Translating an alchemical work, Jung describes chaos as an "assortment of crude disordered matter .... [which nevertheless contains the] divine seeds of life" (Jung, 1953, pp. 144-145). " So, as we're trying to figure things out, what do we get from that????? and regarding the karma and time being non-linear... Well, doesn't this point out at our ability to "change" events? maybe something like the movie MATRIX? and also the movie FREQUENCY (2000, with Dennis Quaid), that you can go back and change the past in order to affect the future differently? Doesn't that make sense with karma? I guess then, that yes, we can all change things, everyday, the question is whether we will choose to do that... It has to be a part of our 'potential", no????? Ooooooo!

full deck	11 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by M-Press "One of the important findings of modern chaos theory is that seeds of order seem to be embedded in chaos, while seeds of chaos are apparently embedded in order. . . . . From what I remember, mathematical experiments performed on non-linear systems show that after a certain large number of iterations (which were graphically displayed) patterns that were not chaotic came into being. This implied that certain non-linear systems that were considered chaotic actually become ordered under certain conditions, thus the notion of order and chaos existing within certain systems at the same time. It was a matter of which condition was expressed and at what time. Economists that have developed their own equations that make use of non-linear systems modeling demonstrate that, even in the most chaotic systems, there are brief moments when trends become predictable, even if for a short period of time. Normally when one take calculus in college, they will study nice, easy linear systems that are easy to model and thus solve. It is those more difficult, "unsolvable" non-linear equations that professors (in the past) would stay away from, labeling them as "unsolvable". Anyway, there are quite a few interesting books on Chaos Theory nowadays to read.

nexyjo	22 Sep 2003
the chaos theory and all that other stuff is beyond me. i'm a simple woman, though i guess i've had my share of philosophical musings. it seems there's two opposing camps - the cards are totally random, or the cards are somehow patterned correctly. i'm wondering why these two must be mutually exclusive. i'm wondering if the cards can be both random *and* ordered "correctly" at the same time. we tend to think in terms of dualities. someone is either a man or a woman. it's either light outside or dark. it's either hot or cold. yet, we all have elements of the masculine and feminine (not to mention transsexuals and intersexed people), sometimes it's twilight, and this time of year, there are days that are neither hot nor cold. i've come to the conclusion that black and white don't exist - it's all shades of gray. so maybe, just maybe, the tarot works the same way. the cards are randomly ordered, yet they are ordered as they should be. it reminds me of the "nature verses nuture" debate - are we (or any living creature for that matter) products of our biology, or our environment? it turns out there's mounting evidence that these two facets work in concert - they cannot be isolated, and each influences the other. trying to glean definitive outcomes based on either simply doesn't work. they are not, in fact, mutually exclusive, but quite the opposite - they cannot exist but as one. so maybe the tarot is part of this connectiveness - they are in fact random, but that's how it must be in order to function, in order to properly sequence into the "correct" order. well, like i said, i guess i've had my share of philosophical musings...

full deck	23 Sep 2003
Quote: Originally posted by nexyjo it seems there's two opposing camps - the cards are totally random, or the cards are somehow patterned correctly. i'm wondering why these two must be mutually exclusive. i'm wondering if the cards can be both random *and* ordered "correctly" at the same time. Quote: I believe that the existence of the classical "path" can be pregnantly formulated as follows: The "path" comes into existence only when we observe it. --Heisenberg, in uncertainty principle paper, 1927 Yes, this is the same idea that has been suggested by Schrödinger's thought experiment involving a cat (poor cat!) and the probability of the cat being alive or dead after an hour: http://www.mtnmath.com/cat.html Quite a few scientists do not consider this "experiment" to be really valid since it can not be tested thus is unprovable but still it does illustrate a state where there are no real events but just changing probabilities, concurring with the passage of time.

M-Press	20 Jan 2004
Hello there! We've been on that great thread a while ago, and i remembered it , and looked at it thoroughly today... The reason is that I started writing my book which will accompany my deck, that will be published this year... I'm trying to put in it the things that I would like to find in such a book, but to also make it different... One of the things I'll be focusing is the creative process of the tarot artist, an issue i'm very concerned about... But I would like to also offer some insights on how the cards work, escpecially since I will dedicate the book to my brother, who is an eternal skeptic and non-believer! I would like to use some of the things discussed here, like the questions and our dilemmas, and I felt I needed your permission or at least awareness for that... and I promise, PROMISE, not to sound like a "new age crack-pot"! ;)

TemperanceAngel	20 Jan 2004
There was a great man called Pythagorus, who discovered that sound omits an energy we can't see, called waves. So does color and so do we. (Actually everything does. Our energy resonates to a cards energy (colors etc.) So the and you chooses each other... *ho-hum TA tiptoes away, before anyone starts chasing her...* :DXTAX:D

Imagemaker	20 Jan 2004
Quote: sound omits an energy we can't see, called waves. So does color and so do we. (Actually everything does. What, Temperance Angel?! Sound omits waves, and we omit waves, and color omits waves? EEeekk. :D I think, with a stroke of a key, you have revolutionized the whole theory of physics :-). (Just had to kid you on that one. I'll slink off into the shadows again.)

~X~	20 Jan 2004
This is an excellent thread! Thanks to those who contributed. I think about the questions brought up here many times. I also think the "randomness" and "orderedness" of the cards is why I generally don't even use spreads at all. I feel that the cards will present themselves as they want regardless of how I arrange them.

TemperanceAngel	20 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Imagemaker :D I think, with a stroke of a key, you have revolutionized the whole theory of physics :-). (Just had to kid you on that one. I'll slink off into the shadows again.) Revolutionised physics :laugh::laugh::laugh: I think that is physics :D:D:D XTAX

Inana	21 Jan 2004
M-Press good luck with your book!! I think it can be very interesting to include questions of this kind, or some ideas about the process, how does tarot work, etc... Wish you the best. Let us know when its finished. Im adding something more to this thread. If when doing a reading we dont have some kind of faith about the cards we have chosen are the good ones, theres no way to believe the reading itself has something important to say. I noticed sometimes i just know the cards are the right ones. When i dont get that feeling, something is missing... but again this is on the side of faith. This doesnt mean im not wondering anymore about what are the mechanics behind the tarot!!

firemaiden	21 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae I was thinking of making a deck that had 7 cards. For doing 7 card spreads, and you just glue them to your spread cloth…you’d never have to shuffle (roflmao). *Firemaiden looks for duct tape to repair splitting sides* I would say that for Umbrae, with those seven pasted-down cards for seven card readings, the reading would still be different everytime. :D })

The What makes the "correct" cards show to us? thread was originally posted on 01 Sep 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.