100th Post: Why is Tarot Evil?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 31 Oct 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

augursWell	31 Oct 2003
I hoped the title of this post would get everyone's attention. It seems a fitting post for Halloween. }) There is a similar thread on this at: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8252 but I wanted to try and go a little further with it... For my 100th posting on the forum I decided to go with a pretty serious question, even though some more entertaining prospects were there(Like how to scrye the bubbles on a glass of ale). I would appreciate feedback on this from any and all interested as it concerns me greatly right now. Also, I would particularly like to hear from any of those on this forum who consider themselves to be more or less a Christian(my background and upbringing)... I have my own reasons for my interest in Tarot which are quite plain to myself. However, I am still a "closet" Tarot user. I have had a Tarot deck around throughout my life, as well as I Ching, but it has never been an overt or important aspect of my life or personality, no one ever took notice. If my friends or family knew of my current use of Tarot cards I fear what they might think. I frankly don't care what others think but I do care what my family might think. I could explain Tarot away in all sorts of ways that many on this forum are probably familiar with. We all have our publicly stated reasons for using Tarot cards. But I find it necessary to physically hide my Tarot decks whenever someone might be coming to visit. Some people say that they are not psychic, do not wish to be, and they are simply getting in touch with their inner being through reading Tarot cards. Others might say it is a form of group therapy for the reader and querent. Others see themselves as simply providing advice, a form of empowerment for the querent. On the flip side, Tarot(tarocchi) cards were historically often used for games and gambling and so were condemned by early Christian churches as evil due to their connection with gambling. Again, Tarot cards are often used by con artists and charlatans as a way of obfuscating their true goal of bilking people out of their money. There are probably as many attitudes about Tarot as there are people on this Forum. There may even be some who feel that yes, Tarot is "evil" and that is why they use it. Some might say that Good and Evil is a dualistic concept that is not valid outside of the Christian faith. To that I would say that it is quite obvious that there is evil in the world that is not dependent upon which faith you subscribe to and that it is not simply a dualistic concept. I don't mean to paint such a bleak picture of all of this. But here is my question: Why is divination, and Tarot in particular, considered to be such a fringe practice? Some of you may live in communities where Tarot is accepted but for the majority of modern society it is regarded as sheer quackery and one's sanity and beliefs are immediately called into question. So here it is... Do you think that Christianity in particular regards Tarot cards as Evil, with a capital E? Is this because only God should know the future? Does the Bible ever say "fortune telling" is Evil? Is the concept of trying to see the future simply bunk and Tarot users are simply delusional? What do you think is the real reason that Tarot cards in particular are treated with such derision?

Star Spirit	01 Nov 2003
It's all about belief. Some people are open-minded, some aren't. Some may feel strongly about one thing and against another. But I also believe the misconceptions have a large part in it. People these days are far too influenced by what they see on TV or hear from friends and skeptics. It's just like thinking witches don't exist, or thinking people who are witches are automatically evil due to the halloween stereotype and watching too many movies, when really, Wicca is a religion just like any other and most witches practice good magick (and don't ride broomsticks or wear pointy hats or cackle). We could just as easily find something "evil" about Christianity. I think it's the same for tarot. People see fake TV psychics and assume that the cards are fake too? It may also be because when these psychics are exposed as fraudulent and their tactics not necessarily accurate, they assume that tarot cards can't read into people's lives, when really it is the reader, not the cards. I mean for heaven's sake, they're just cards. Although in some ways it's like they have minds of their own :) I think in the end, the only people who can believe in the tarot are those who have seen its workings, and the only way the tarot can 'work' is if you believe it can in the first place. Congrats on your 100th post, by the way.

Inana	01 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by augursWell Do you think that Christianity in particular regards Tarot cards as Evil, with a capital E? No. At least not nowadays or not where i live. In fact, most of the readers here are christians. Quote: Does the Bible ever say "fortune telling" is Evil? I dont think the Bible says fortune telling is Evil, dont know much the Bible, havent had enough patience for reading it but i think in it appear different systems of divination and are not condemned. Anyway, its not the religion itself what says divination is evil, its on a more political level where we find so. Its the freedom to belief wathever you want what scaries them cause when more freedom exists, the power has a more difficult time to control us. Just think about Inquisition, the real reasons for it where not of a spiritual or religious kind, where political ones. For science and rationalism they just think its an stupid thing, not evil. And there isnt any period on History more oriented to rationalisate everything that the one we live in. Those is of course in detriment of some human values. When we all are stadistical ents theres no room for poetry, if you know what i mean. A number in a list doesnt give the same feelings that a name. And i stop here cause this has nothing to do with your questions and thoughts... Congratulations on your 100th post, and write many more!! :)

HudsonGray	01 Nov 2003
People are always afraid of what they don't understand, and a lot just don't want to find out about divination systems. The bible is FULL of divination (Joseph's prophetic interpretation of the Pharaoh's dreams, scrying in birds flying over, etc.) all through the old testament, so you can't say it frowns on tarot--especially since tarot is only physically traceable to the 1400's (WAY after the bible was written). It can't mention tarot cards, but it sure didn't frown on other ways of seeing the future. Many holy men and prophets used it to their advantage. My world view doesn't make it 'evil' for me. My folks don't know a thing about the cards, are heavily Catholic & tried to give me static "Oh, you don't BELIEVE in that!??!!' but their eyes glazed over when I tried to explain how it works, so they didn't want to hear... oh well. That's ok. The labels only work if everyone agrees on them. I know people who think role playing games are evil. They live in their world, I live in mine, and make my own mind up. Try not to let relatives form too much influence in your life. It's your life, not theirs.

lark	01 Nov 2003
This in biblical terms seems to be where all the hoop de do starts. As the Isrelites entered the land of Canaan they were told by Moses that they would confront many divinations practiced by the Canaanites. That they were not to practice these things and if they did they would be found detestable before God. Deuteronomy 18:10-13 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist, or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. you must be blameless before the Lord your God. N.I.V. God wanted the Isrelites to only count on him for any guidence. And that seems to be where it all started. There are alot of other references if you care to look (sorry I can't do it, it was very painful for me just to look this one up.) I can't believe in a God that would find me detestable because he gave me the gift of second sight. Namaste

augursWell	01 Nov 2003
Quote: People see fake TV psychics and assume that the cards are fake too? Dead Star, I think this is a major factor in the way the general public sees this. Along with the traveling Carnival and the County Fair crystal ball/tarot card gypsy, which I actually like the idea of. Quote: When we all are stadistical ents theres no room for poetry Inana, I think that's quite on topic. It also gave me a laugh. :D It makes sense to me that there is a major conflict between rationality and spirituality in today's world. Quote: Try not to let relatives form too much influence in your life. It's your life, not theirs. HudsonGray, I may have lost sight of this but luckily my family is not very intrusive in this way so I think there is hope for us in this regard. Quote: Deuteronomy 18:10-13 Lark, thanks very much for the direct reference, I was hoping for one or two. It seems to me that this passage had more to do with the "One God" concept that was unique and unheard of during this time in Jewish history. I'd like to think that it meant "don't use the Caananite way of doing things, use mine(God)". Perhaps it doesn't mean those things are wrong, just done without the guidance of God. I may have to dust off my Bible and take a look. I know that John Edward, who "consults the dead", has stated that he is Christian and says prayers before a reading. That's assuming that he truly is what he says he is and truly does what he seems able to do. The above biblical passage would seem to frown upon his skills as well.

jmd	02 Nov 2003
It may be difficult to believe, but I remember before reaching my 100th post that I just didn't see how people could have so many posts :) With regards to the title of the thread, I must admit that I see it as a loaded question - of the same form as 'why do you beat your loved ones?'. If it were the case, then of course the question would be appropriate. So to the question in the title, I will just be as strong-voiced: The Tarot is benign! (with no offence taken by your question, by the way:)). Now to move on to your specific questions, and I but partly understand the context of the question. 'Do you think that Christianity in particular regards Tarot cards as Evil, with a capital E?' There are undoubtedly particular Christian sects which have quite strong views in opposition to numerous things, including the Tarot. Also, even the Roman Catholic Church, though seemingly more than tolerant of it in some countries (eg, France & Italy), priests and other representatives in regions which have a lack of cultural ties with Tarot (such as even Australia) seem to have more malefic views towards it. Tarot, per se, has probably more Christian adepts or adherents than of any other religious orientation. Numerous authors on Tarot, of course, are also strong Christians. 'Is this because only God should know the future?' If only God, or indeed spiritual beings, 'should' know the future, than divination would be clearly and without equivocation painted and tainted as evil in the Bible. It isn't. 'Does the Bible ever say "fortune telling" is Evil?' There are particular rules given to certain individuals or groups of individuals who have been given specific duties and instructed to forsake divination. In other words, some have been told that, in order to accept their tasks, have to abandon others. In this vain, the tasks given to Kind David prevented him from engaging in other tasks (the building of the Temple); or the tasks given to Moses also meant that he forsook others... This isn't a general 'ban' on divination, even less on 'fortune-telling' (whatever this is meant to mean). 'Is the concept of trying to see the future simply bunk and Tarot users are simply delusional?' This is undoubtedly the standard view in western society at large, which has a physicalist non-spiritual view of things. The way which it becomes 'acceptable', for this same portion of the population, is by seeing it as a useful psychological tool. The cards, according to this view, cannot assist in divination proper, but allows one to open oneself to certain dispositions which are claimed to be explainable by neural firings alone. Of course, not all who have a psychological preference for the use of Tarot adopt the physicalist constructs. 'What do you think is the real reason that Tarot cards in particular are treated with such derision?' I personally do not know anyone who seriously has derisory views of Tarot. At most, they express what I consider healthy scepticism. If any deride strongly Tarot, it is, in the end, to their own detriment and close-mindedness. In such cases, I would probably not even bother mentioning it, prefering to maintain my own inner integrity. In our environment, and whether we like it or not, Tarot is reflected and viewed by the way those who hold it dear and use it conduct themselves - not by what the images present. In the long run, of course, this may not be the case (fortunately!), and Tarot will continue to exhert its intrinsic merits - spiritual and temporal.

punchinella	02 Nov 2003
Augurswell, I know where you're coming from: I live 4000 miles away from my closest living family member, but if I did not I too would have to keep my deck collection well hidden. My family are 'bretheryn'--if you have any notion what that means--& tarot is . . . well, it's JUST NOT OKAY with them. Not okay at all. Thanks, Lark, for the citation . . . I would've gone looking for it if you hadn't, since I knew it was in there. Isn't there also something about a specific witch--of 'Endor'? (or is that in Shakespeare?) --Anyway, I seem to recall that she practises divination, & communicates with the dead, & is therefore condemned in no uncertain terms . . . Funny that divination is so evil, & prophecy is not (what's the difference anyway??!! --Could it be--a--gasp--*gender issue*--perchance??) I think it was only by dint of having used I Ching for years, & having experienced it as a thing so unswervingly & incontestibly benign, that I was able to get beyond the fundamentalist upbringing & purchase my first tarot deck . . . So, yes, I do know where you're coming from, & you have all my sympathy! (Oh--& congratulations on the 100th post. I reached 100 a couple of days ago. When it comes to picking avatars--I see we both have good taste.) P. P.S. I'm having another thought on this. --In regards to the way that divination, in the bible, seems to be linked with calling up the dead: the two practices are not the same at all, as I see them, but perhaps confusion in the mind of the general public about this accounts for much of divination's 'spooky' rap. &, in response to JMD's words: "I personally do not know anyone who seriously has derisory views of Tarot." --I do! But they're not Christians, they're rationalists/positivists/empiricists . . . good healthy modern skeptics, in other words. Most of the Christians I know are anything but derisive, about this sort of thing. They believe that divination works because demonic forces make it work. Well . . . fine. Whatever. --But, seriously, that's what most of the people in my family believe, & they're dead-earnest about it too. Scaaaaarey!

Star Spirit	02 Nov 2003
I really hate it when people judge something before the know what it is. It just doesn't seem like you can be a truly religious person unless you can be open minded and also respect other religions and cultures and take the time to understand them before you judge them.

punchinella	02 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Dead Star I really hate it when people judge something before the know what it is. But Dead Star, in this case, what exactly is it? --The problem with your argument is that in order for it to work, everyone in the world has to agree on what, say, tarot divination is . . . The Christians in my family judging it negatively think that they know what it is . . . as do I, although our definitions disagree radically. What makes me right about it, & them wrong? To assert that they don't know what divination is seems to me just as presumptuous as premature judging. From their viewpoint, they do know exactly what it is . . . & they don't like it. P.

augursWell	02 Nov 2003
Quote: With regards to the title of the thread, I must admit that I see it as a loaded question jmd, you noticed that huh? :D Most of my questions at the end of the original post were an attempt to convey what I thought other's views were on the subject(not those on this forum of course). Quote: I personally do not know anyone who seriously has derisory views of Tarot. At most, they express what I consider healthy scepticism. I'd say you are lucky in this regard.

Star Spirit	02 Nov 2003
Quote: But Dead Star, in this case, what exactly is it? --The problem with your argument is that in order for it to work, everyone in the world has to agree on what, say, tarot divination is . . . The Christians in my family judging it negatively think that they know what it is . . . as do I, although our definitions disagree radically. What makes me right about it, & them wrong? To assert that they don't know what divination is seems to me just as presumptuous as premature judging. From their viewpoint, they do know exactly what it is . . . & they don't like it. I agree, you do have a point that Tarot is a hard thing to fully explain or comprehend. But basically the tarot is just a simple deck of cards with pictures on them that can help one gain insight and predict events that may or may not come true. But that doesn't mean they are possessed. The reason the cards read the way they do is because the reader shuffled and laid them out that way based on their own intuition. It's not like they're "tools of the Devil" or anything like that. They hardly have anything to do with witchcraft or anything evil (not that witchcraft is evil, just some see it that way). I hardly see how intuitive gazes into life can be something to frown upon. But that's me. I understand that some people know the basics of what Tarot is and does and they don't like the idea of 'predictions' or 'fortune telling' because they think it's associated with the black arts or whatever they may think. But that's their opinion and they are entitled to that. I have no problem with someone not liking tarot if they understand what it is and is used for, as long as they don't constantly speak their hatred for it out loud in an 'I'm right and you're wrong' fashion. It's not like I'd judge them for their religion or beliefs just because they weren't the same as my own. I just think we have to respect that in people and focus on what we believe in rather than what we don't. I mean, Satanism for example. To tell you the truth, I don't really even know fully what Satanism is. I'll admit that to me it doesn't sound good, but I'm not going to go and say something like "You're a Devil worshiper and that's just wrong because the Devil is evil". I mean for all I know that could have nothing to do with being Satanist. Basically I don't mind if people simply dislike tarot or don't believe in it, as long as they have taken the time to understand it as best they can and are respectful that others are entitled to disagree with them.

augursWell	02 Nov 2003
Gee punchinella, nice avatar. I should get myself one of those! :) My feeling on divination is that if you have personally experienced an "event" of some sort in your life that seems to be of a "divine" nature than you cannot but be effected by it. It is an experience not just a concept so it is not easily dismissed. Those people which do not have something like this in their lives can easily dismiss it in whatever way they as a person think, since it is nothing more than a concept for them. They fall back in line with whatever their particular faith or belief system says. I also believe God/Goddess/Allah/Buddha/Ein Soph/etc. put us in/on this world to live out our lives as best we can. Why would such experiences happen if we weren't meant to resolve the questions that they present? To me divination should be a way to communicate with something of a higher nature. It seems to me that the answers one gets will tell you whether that is a higher nature, or not. The problem is that many people seem to zero in on the idea of asking God a question directly(i.e through the Tarot) as somehow inately wrong/misguided/evil. Perhaps because it is not sanctioned by their particular faith. It's okay to pray to God for an answer but using Tarot cards for that! Uh Uh no way. I guess that is the fundamental question I am wrestling with.

Star Spirit	02 Nov 2003
Tsk tsk. Too much judgement in this world :>

punchinella	03 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by augursWell It's okay to pray to God for an answer but using Tarot cards for that! Uh Uh no way. I guess that is the fundamental question I am wrestling with. --You know augurswell, that's a great point. I've always sort of secretly wondered, when people go on & on about asking God for an answer, & then about 'getting' their answer, HOW they got it??? &, for that matter, how they knew it came from God? --& not from some inner region of their own psyche, as seems to me far more likely . . . !! --Bearing in mind, of course, that the folk in question tend to insist that God is someone else, a separate being altogether, NOT a 'higher self' or force within . . . P.

Star Spirit	03 Nov 2003
That's why I like Tarot....it makes you question a lot of things :D

Bean Feasa	03 Nov 2003
Hi Augurswell and congrats on your hundredth post. I feel very far away from that moment myself, but who knows - I'm enjoying this site so much at the moment, I might even get there someday. If you're very preoccupied with the question you've raised, there's a book I think you might like. It's called 'Tarot, Talisman or Taboo: Reading the World as Symbol' by Mark Patrick Hederman, who is a monk in Glenstal Abbey here in Ireland. I haven't read the book but have leafed through it in bookshops (it's available from Amazon.com as well, I notice) and he seems to be defending Tarot from a Christian viewpoint - highlighting how much of the symbolism and iconography is actually in keeping with the Christian tradition. I'm more inclined towards the older path myself, but I do have one or two other books of his, and he's a very stimulating writer on philosophical and religious topics. It can be a little lonely following a 'fringe' type pursuit, I agree, but when I feel like that I remind myself that 'mass' acceptance of something can change with the times and the fashion - yoga, something I was deeply interested in (still am) when it was regarded as the preserve of weirdos, is now practically chic, and perfectly normal. Certainly, I think the depth of wisdom and helpful advice available from the Tarot way outweighs any qualms I might have about what other people or institutions think about it, and my own gut instinct is that there is nothing remotely evil about Tarot - it simply neutrally reflects the various energies of life. Blessings, Kate

catlin	03 Nov 2003
In tarot or general palying card history the clerics had sometimes a very biased point of view. Sometimes, tarot and playing cards was tolerated, sometimes it was forbidden, it really depended on the general mood (and maybe on the fact how much many the churches and abbeys got from the ppl). In Germany playing cards were called the "Gebetsbuch des Teufels" (the devil's catechism). Ok, there are ppl who love to quote stuff like the passage of the Deuteronomy to me but then I can well answer: "What was Moses doing when he diveded the Red Sea or when his staff turned into a snake or when he draw water out of the rock? Wasn't that also sorcery?"

Logiatrix	03 Nov 2003
augursWell, Congrats on post #100... :D Just as jmd states, "I personally do not know anyone who has has derisory views of tarot." I've been fortunate enough to have not experienced derision... However, the word EVIL, and those who use it freely and with strong judgement behind it, frightens me. Especially in the world we now live in. I understand your use of the word in your question, and I welcome your approach of this subject, because I DON"T understand people who think that way. EVIL is a word that is so divisive and polarizing that powerful people have used it to destroy whole nations in the name of religion. It is strange to me to include it in the context of tarot, but I have heard other tarotists, such as yourself, who have heard it said as such. Quite frankly, I think something like tarot is too small to be evil, if I truly believe evil exists. When I reflect on those things, people, incidents, etc. that have demonstrated evil in this world, I know it's real and it's big. But that just makes it all the more difficult for me to throw the word around in a smaller arena, such as tarot or other such practices. It strikes me as a very heavy and powerful accusation, requiring a belief of two distinct Universal polarities. Ironically, it's tools such as tarot that help me to see the Universe as much more unified, and not so extremely polarized. One who would choose to micromanage another's spiritual practice and label it as *evil* should recalibrate that judgement meter, before we have yet ANOTHER war, witch trial, lynching, mass execution or ethnic cleansing on our hands. :eek: PEACE, Tauni EDITED: to remove derisory statements against religous people. My apologies. Some of my best friends are religous people. :D

augursWell	04 Nov 2003
Quote: However, the word EVIL, and those who use it freely and with strong judgement behind it, frightens me. Tauni, I was suddenly reminded of how I used to wince everytime I heard George Bush use the term "Evil". I had the same opinion, and still do, that it is a divisive term that only serves to cause a schism between the two sides being refered to. Thanks for reminding me of that. Gee, does that mean I'm channeling George Bush. :D I hope not!

augursWell	04 Nov 2003
Quote: 'Tarot, Talisman or Taboo: Reading the World as Symbol' by Mark Patrick Hederman Thanks, Bean Feasa, it sounds like a book I would be quite interested in. I would especially value the view of an Irish Monk, I hope that doesn't sound too racist. :)

Nevada	04 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Bean Feasa Hi Augurswell and congrats on your hundredth post. I feel very far away from that moment myself, but who knows - I'm enjoying this site so much at the moment, I might even get there someday. Bean Feasa, That 100th post will come much sooner than you think! :D Nevada

augursWell	04 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by catlin I can well answer: "What was Moses doing when he diveded the Red Sea or when his staff turned into a snake or when he draw water out of the rock? Wasn't that also sorcery?" catlin, I've been learning a lot of Kabbalah lately from books and such but, despite the fact that a lot of it makes real sense to me right now, I've been struck by some of the assumptions that are made. For example, there is a method of assigning Moses, Isaac, and others to each of the Sephirot since they have characteristics which are similar to a particular Sephira. But I thought, hey, where are all the women in all of this? Why not map 10 Jewish women to the 10 Sephirot also(perhaps there is such a thing and I have simply not come across it yet). I don't want to start an argument about the representation of women in the Torah or the Bible. My point is that there are some major assumptions taken for granted in the Bible. And I agree, the Bible is full of all sorts of "otherwordly" events, for lack of a better term. How and when those things were decided to be "Good" as opposed to "Evil"(using the context of this discussion) is a big question. We only have to look at the Inquisition to see how judgement of others' spirituality can go awry. If Tarot had existed in the 2nd Century and later, it would be interesting to see what would have been said about it.

Bean Feasa	05 Nov 2003
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 'Tarot, Talisman or Taboo: Reading the World as Symbol' by Mark Patrick Hederman -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You'll all think I have shares in the publishing company (haven't, honestly!) but I wanted to give a little example of the kind of thing he discusses in the book. He brings up the subject of W.B. Yeats who as I'm sure you all know is a huge Irish literary figure, and was also very much an elder statesman, founder of our national theatre, and in his latter years a Senator of our Parliament. I knew Yeats was interested in the occult, but what I didn't know is that he had a huge interest specifically in Tarot. Hederman says that Yeats stated openly that his passion for Tarot was second only to his passion for poetry! Yet in any study of Yeats' work or life this gets conveniently disregarded, dismissed, ignored, as simply being too 'flaky' to deal with, and has never been given any serious consideration as a factor in his development as a poet. Make me mad :mad: to think of it. Btw Augurswell, didn't find your comment on the Irish monk thing racist at all at all :) And Nevada... thanks for the encouragement about the 100 posts! :)

The 100th Post: Why is Tarot Evil? thread was originally posted on 31 Oct 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.