Phoenix symbolising water

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 29 Oct 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

TemperanceAngel	29 Oct 2003
Hello! Does anyone know why the phoenis symbolises water and not fire?? I thought that the phoenix rose out of the ashes, hence fire. I would love to hear people's thoughts on this or any websites or books where I could find information! Thanks everyone X

cjtarot	29 Oct 2003
TemperanceAngel I'm no great study of symbols, but where did you hear pheonix was water??? The symbol has to mean something to you when your read. If the pheonix means fire to you, your guides will send that symbol to you when they want you to think fire... Book meanings don't always apply to everyone.. Good reading CJ

TemperanceAngel	29 Oct 2003
cjtarot Mary K Greers' book, Tarot For Yourself, in the elements section. I don't think fire, my students do! I thought it would be interesting to put it into the forum and see what other people thought or felt about it. Personally I find it very interesting and it raised a great discussion in my workshop. Thanks so much for your reply, this is the first time I have used the forum. Temperancengel

Inana	30 Oct 2003
Hi Temperance Angel and welcome!! I think about fire too when thinking of a Phoenix, after all, its a fire bird. Its the first time i hear about it related to water, and it doesnt feel right to me. If it was air, still can have a chance, but water? Is there any explanation for this clasification?

Diana	30 Oct 2003
I have searched through everything I could find on the Phoenix. There is never any mention of water. It is the God of the South - represents Fire - in Chinese mythology. In Feng Shui, you are advised very strongly against putting any water element in the South placement which is the Red Phoenix placement (fire) as the water will put out the fire. There must be a misprint in Mary Greer's book - she would surely not have made such an important error. Her editors would have picked it up.

Indigo_lady	30 Oct 2003
It's certainly the one missing ashes is earth but to create the fire you need the oxygen in the air fire obviously equals fire I don't see the water there, unless the water stands for life, when the pheonix becomes the mythological bird again, since there cannot be life without water Only thing I can think off ;)

sagitarian	30 Oct 2003
the only think here that I can think of at all is with the Temperance card, usually it's a angelic figure mixing fire and water together. It's a card of Alchemy. I know the wings that the angel have in the Universal Waite (Rider Waite) is symbolic to the phoenix (wings of the phoenix). Since Temperance is usually associated with water upon first glance, but her wings are of the phoenix, someone may have made a connection here. But i'm in agreeance with everyone else, that the Phoenix is a representation of fire, and it's properties. We all have our own internal symbology and truths, if the Phoenix means water to this person, so be it, and if it means fire to another, so be it, there is no "wrong" answer, only many views on one subject. Perhaps there is something here to learn from your student of how water is a part of the Phoenix.

TemperanceAngel	02 Nov 2003
Hi everyone, It's great to hear everyone's thoughts on this topic. I checked Mary K Greer again just in case I got it wrong, but no, so I may have to e-mail her myself. I have been looking into Greek Mythology of the Phoenix and there are a few myths associated with this creature, most significantly to do with reproduction, death and birth. A thought was that birth could quite possibly be the water link? I will keep researching!!!

TemperanceAngel	04 Nov 2003
P.S. To add to the brief part I wrote about Greek Mythology... "The Phoenix did not reproduce normally. When it felt its death impending it collected aromatic plants, incense and amomum and made a nest. In one tradition it set fire to the nest and a new Phoenix rose from the ashes; in the other it settled upon its nest and impregnated it as it died. The new Phenix was then born, wrapped up its progenitor's body in a hollow log, and took it to Heliopolis in Egypt. It was then burned by priests........." OK so there is more but I think I got the gist of it down. So although there was a lot of burning going on, it is still to do with birth. Maybe I am clutching at straws, but to me birth and the water element go together?? This is the first thread I have ever posted on here, so am not sure if it is in the right section? Please move it if you think it isn't, thanks! I am still puzzled by the Phoenix issue, so if anyone has any thoughts PLEASE do join in this thread. XTAX

TemperanceAngel	11 Nov 2003
How exciting, Mary Greer e-mailed me *gasp* "That's a very good question. Obviously, since the bird is born out of fire, it could be related to the element fire. However, in esoteric astrology, the phoenix is seen as the esoteric ruler of Scorpio, a water sign, (replacing the eagle and the scorpian). Scorpio is the astrological sign of transformation, although we tend to associate the element of fire with transformation. I'm sure that this is the reason I put the phoenix in the water category since I have a chart that is heavy with Scorpio/Pluto influences and I chose the phoenix as the overall spirit/image of my chart (around the same time as I wrote Tarot for Yourself)." Makes more sense now! XTAX

Nevada	11 Nov 2003
TemperanceAngel, Quote: Originally posted by TemperanceAngel How exciting, Mary Greer e-mailed me *gasp* That's so great that Mary Greer answered you, and so soon! Mars is also considered a fiery planet and yet has been associated with Scorpio, a water sign. And how did anyone come up with the Eagle or Scorpion as symbols of a water sign? It does get confusing. I would say that while the Phoenix may be associated with the *sign* Scorpio as a symbol of death and rebirth or transformation, it really doesn't fit as a symbol of the basic *element* water. OTOH, I've never been convinced that the traits of Scorpio completely fit a water sign, unless you're thinking of the water around a volcanic vent, or a geiser, something like that, LOL, where fire transforms the usual qualities of water. :D Nevada, who has Scorpio rising

TemperanceAngel	11 Nov 2003
Scorpio can be the 'black sheep' of the Water family. XTAX who is a Cancer cusp Leo with Pisces Rising and the Sun and Moon on the cusp of Cancer/Leo in my birth chart YISRES!!

Inana	12 Nov 2003
This is the first time i hear of the Phoenix associated to Scorpio. Its interesting to know it. About the symbols of Scorpio... well i remember in a book i read the salamander was another symbol of Scorpio and is more related to fire too (at least for me). So... maybe all this associations were made before, when mars was considered our ruler planet instead of Pluto? But still is strange. Temperance, is nice she answered soon to your mail. :)

Diana	12 Nov 2003
Odd.... Oh well, I suppose symbols are confusing things. A very unconvinced Diana......

TemperanceAngel	12 Nov 2003
"A symbol that can be defined is no longer a true symbol-which must always transcend categories and explanations." Mary Greer also said this as well, which really fits in with your thinking, Diana. Tarot For Yourself was written in the 80's, 20 years later thoughts change, it is interesting to hear Mary's thinking from the time when the book was written. (well, it is for me anyways) XTAX

The Phoenix symbolising water thread was originally posted on 29 Oct 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.