Any advice on a bad first reading

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 03 Nov 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Bean Feasa	03 Nov 2003
I debated whether to post this in the readings section but it's more of a general question about reading for someone for the first time than an in-depth look at a specific reading, so I thought here was more appropriate, but, moderator, feel free to move this if you wish. I'm pretty new at Tarot, just 6 months or so but have been reading avidly and reading for myself a lot, and getting a great deal out of it, I'm absolutely entranced. I attempted a Celtic Cross reading for an intrigued friend about 2 weeks ago, but unfortunately ended up regretting the fact. I used the Tarot of Prague, and the question my friend asked was whether there's a fulfilling relationship down the line for her. In the interests of brevity I won't go into all the cards, but the Queen of Swords turned up in the Recent past position - very apt as this woman has had a lot of pain in her life. In the near future position was the 5 of Cups. My friend got completely spooked by this - it's a severe image in the ToP - a faceless statue of the Golem looks down at the 3 spilt cups. I tried to stress to her the fact that 2 full cups still stood behind the statue, and that she needed to remember the positive aspect of that, but she asked to look in the book, and found 'bereavement' as one of the keywords. Most of the pain she has suffered in her life has come from the deaths of people close to her - and when she read the entry her eyes filled with tears. I was horrified. The 9 of cups and the Wheel of Fortune appeared in the possible outcome, and more likely outcome positions respectively, and I tried to stress the positive elements of these cards, but to no avail. I feel really bad about this, I think I misjudged my own reading abilities and tried too much too soon. I felt I didn't handle the reading skilfully, and I both disappointed my friend and did the Tarot a disservice, as I think she now sees it as something dark and frightening. As I mentioned earlier, I find reading for myself very rewarding, but I don't know if I'll venture to read for someone else again. I was wondering if anyone else had an early experience like this, and if you have any advice on the subject. Would a 'softer' deck have helped, do you think? Blessings, Kate

Alissa	03 Nov 2003
((((((Kate))))))) Reading for people is hard ... totally. But when I was reading your story, the feeling I got from your querent was that although she may have openly expressed dismay at what she saw in the cards, the cards' meanings spoke to her condition. Sometimes people cry when their pain is "validated" (hate that pop-psycho. word, but it's true). It can be powerfully good, even when provoking tears for some, to have an impersonal thing like a set of cards say, "You've had it rough ... things have been hard, a lot of people have up and died on you, and that's really really hard to deal with." On the 5 Cups.... Bereavement may indeed be part of her near future ... but not because she should expect another death. It may be that her willingness to focus on what she's lost (literally lost, through death, and internally still grieving) will interfere with her ability to form a new relationship. She may feel she is incapable of connecting again when all she can focus on is what she has lost in life. Queen of Swords is sometimes seen as a widower too, just like you mentioned, a card often indicating a person who has suffered hardship and significant loss. I can see how the 2 cards are talking to each other. But as for getting another deck, my opinion is that it isn't necessary. I think most decks, except the most benign, will still have a few cards that some people will find disturbing. The Devil, death, and some others, will continually freak people out upon first sight (chalk that up to popular media). What matters more is that you tried to get out the reading that your querent most needed to hear. How querents absorb the information they're given is individual. It sounds to me like your approach was tactful and informative while reading, the mark of a good reader. Lastly, I would offer a caveat : don't sugarcoat things when you read. Call it like you see it. Most folks appreciate a reader who doesn't beat around the bush when their lives' problems arise in a reading. And, again, many find it very confirming to have an outsider recognize the problems they've been through.

Alissa	03 Nov 2003
And instead of editing my last post, I'll just tag in one last word of my own advice : you may wish to use smaller spreads in the future, especially if you're a new reader. The Celtic cross uses 10 cards. Three cards will often suffice. I'm fond of a lotta spreads that use 5-7 cards. But 10 cards is a WHOLE lot to try to read, and a lot for a new querent to absorb, as well.

Umbrae	03 Nov 2003
My advice. Begin at the beginning. Go Slow! Unless you strive for mediocrity. Begin with three card spreads. Begin doing three card readings (for others). Do them for-ever. Do a lot of them. Three card readings are versatile, and accurate. More cards do not always mean better readings (but they look good on TV). A Celtic Cross? 30 years of reading and I have never used a celtic cross...ever. There is no need to advance to a five card spread until you have at least six months of reading under your belt. Buy a spiral notebook. Use it as a Journal (very important). Write down every reading (both cards and your interpretation). Hunt down a beast (using search on this forum) called Umbrae's Relationship Spread if you are going to do relationships. The old Celtic Cross may be lovely for a static general look-see of a persons life, but relationships are far more dynamic. But really...back way up on the reading for a while...three cards... Only read for yourself no more than once a week. Read old threads in the Archives. Read the text sections.

Bean Feasa	03 Nov 2003
Alissa and Umbrae thank you for your replies. Alissa, your comment on the 5 of cups possibly meaning that bereavement may be part of her future but not in the context of actual bereavement, more of leaving a mark on her ability to form a new relationship, makes a lot of sense, and, I think, from knowing her, is probably very true. I think I'll certainly leave the Celtic Cross aside for a bit, as both of you advise, but could I ask you what the designations generally are in a 3-card spread. Past, present and future, I would guess - is that it? Umbrae, the relationship spread looks interesting, though as I say I think I'll take a bit of a break (4 of Swords-ville? :)), before I read for someone else again.

Umbrae	03 Nov 2003
The standard position labels are Past-Present-Future (or probable outcome) also known as the ‘PPF’. Some folks insert other meanings to the positions, Body-Mind-Spirit, Option one-Situation-Option two. The handy thing is that this is an extremely fluid spread – just about any three reasonable labels can be used in the three positions. I usually use: 1. The Present, or how it is 2. The Shroud, or that which obscures reality 3. Guidance. I must urge you though...read for others - it's the key to learing.

Astraea	03 Nov 2003
My take on this is very similar to Alissa's. I think that your reading was highly accurate, and this -- combined with your own uncertainty as a new reader -- made for an unpleasant experience. But unpleasantness does not preclude healing and help! Have you heard of the "healing crisis," a phenomenon most often referred-to in homeopathy? It happens when the correct remedy is found for a person's condition, thus "bulls-eye'ing" both the cause, and the symptoms. The result can be an initial worsening of the symptoms, followed in its own time by resolution. The same sort of thing can occur with readings which touch on the most profound issues of life. Your friend was already upset about her circumstances, and the tarot faithfully mirrored that fact -- she was probably not expecting so much truth to flow across that particular bridge! That said, I believe that Umbrae and Alissa are correct when they say that smaller spreads are a better way to go in the initial stages of learning to read tarot. My first reading was dreadful -- I, too, used a Celtic Cross because the books all said how great it was. Well, I drew a total blank and was excruciatingly embarrassed. I got "back on the horse," and eventually discovered that less is more -- fewer cards in a spread can really concentrate the message. The Celtic Cross is a fine spread, but to this day I don't think it's necessarily better than three-, four- or five-card spreads. Consider this: your client/friend's issue would have been revealed just as plainly, if not moreso, in a smaller thread. Truth has a way of presenting itself, even through one card, when a question is asked in sincerity and when the reader truly desires to be of service. The Tarot of Prague, in my experience, is very resonant with all levels of truth and is thus a marvelous deck -- be glad that you have it. My sense is that your experience with this reading was a jolt to both of you, but not necessarily negative.

Inana	03 Nov 2003
Bean, A reading is no bad if it gets the real problems to the surface. So keep on. The issue is in how to comunicate what you see. Sounds like you tried to make the reading encouraging, so i agree with the others here. Anyway... I also need some advice here. I read for myself often and sometimes through the net or with the person not being present and it seems it works. My problem comes when the querent is with me. Then i dont know how to put the thing into words in a way it sounds consistant. The four or five times i tried to read for family or friends have been a disaster... Lots of "eeeeers" and "mmmhh". Any good advice on how to manage this?

destinyawaitsme	03 Nov 2003
I just wanted to add a few things to the plethora of good comments already made. I've been in your shoes many of times. It's especially hard to read for someone you care about, because if you see that they may be on an unhealthy path it can be hurtful to you also. Keep in mind that cards represent energies not necessarily events. For example, if I get a 5 of cups in my near future. It doesn't necessarily mean someone is going to die, or something horrible is going to happen to throw me into a deep dark depression. A lot of times I find (more times than not actually) cards refer to a feeling or emotional state. If the Queen of Swords is in her recent past, and the 5 of Cups was in her near future I would think it would have more to do with her struggling to let go of the pain in the past. Sometimes we just need to take time to greive. And her outcome cards did indicate that she would overcome this. Also, like someone mentioned earlier, it's up to you to explain the visual images to the readee. I read for my friends with the Buckland Romani deck which if you haven't seen it the Death card has a big grim reaper on top of a wagon engulfed in flames. Not a pretty picture for someone who doesn't know the background of the Death card. You don't have to go into a lecture on tarot symbolism, but explaining the big important symbols help a great deal. Mentioning the two cups left was a good move on your part. A big part of her grieving process is realizing that all is not lost. She still has many things to be grateful for in her life. All in all, I think you did a good job. It was just a touchy subject and still being new with the cards might have made you feel a bit insecure. I've been reading for 3 years and I still have trouble reading with friends. It's almost easier to read for strangers. Don't let this discourage you from reading. It's just a learning experience along the way. Good Luck! Destiny

dolphinprincess	03 Nov 2003
Bean Feasa- I can understand how you must feel right now... I read tarot all the time for myself, but I am still so nervous reading for others... However, based on the information, I think you did the best job you could... I have always said "don't ask questions you don't want answers to"..... Your friend asked a question that she wasn't fully prepared to deal with the answer to - this is not your fault... I think if I read for someone that was unfamiliar with tarot, I'd be sure to give them a little pep talk before the reading - and tell them not to freak if they see an image that frightens them.. that every card has negative and positive spins and the reading needs to be looked at as a whole.. That said, i also agree that smaller readings are a lot easier to get a grasp on.. every time I have ever attempted a CC, I wind up much more confused! Also, don't give up reading for others.. why not offer readings on the reading exchange board.. its much easier to practice on people that understand tarot and won't freak on you :o)

bunnyhop	03 Nov 2003
i understand what you're talking about, Bean Feasa. i feel horrible as well when i'm reading for someone, and they get upset when i touch a sensitive area of their life. and to mirror what everyone else is saying: you were just being a good reader. i'm sorry the querent got your book with the meanings. it's her bust because she should have let you do your thing. she already made up her mind when she read about bereavement. i would definitely keep the book away from the querents next time. :)

Adele	03 Nov 2003
hi Bean Feasa, in response to your post... try a different way of interpreting the cards where you would say "this and this MAY happen but there are still 2 cups standing and full so there is hope in the situation, although the person may not be aware of it at the moment due to their own emotional suffering" b/c that is really what the 5cups is all about... focusing on the 3 spilled cups and not seeing the 2 cups full. so there is still hope for the situation once the person gets past their mourning. also, the Qswords is a very tough lady! yes, she has been hurt before and is wiser for it. so, I would say focusing on the positives more... sometimes you can get the person to view it differently.... and the sad news is easier to take. further, as long as we have a heart w/ good intentions that is the energy that will go out... so you did your best... and perhaps needing to disconnect yourself from the outcome... we CANNOT control how someone is going to react to a reading... that is their choice. some people are just very emotional. I always aim to end the reading on a positive note.. remember, things are always subject to change and it is up to us! hope this helps.

Alex	03 Nov 2003
It's a good idea to have positions for "conscious" and "unconscious" hopes and fears, because you can link cards in these positions to the outcomes, as factors that help determine them. In the CC, for example, I like to read position 5, "below", as the "root of the problem", something the person isn't completely aware of, and position 4 as "crown", or what is apparent in the problem (what she can see). Then, position 8 I read as "hopes and fears", generally subconscious. These cards will give you room to pinpoint the person's role in the problem, envision a solution, and/or give counsel. For example, it may be that this person is just unlucky; but it may also be that this person is particularly attracted to people who are sick, self-destructive or otherwise prone to abandon her through death. It may be that she was abandoned by either one of her parents, or both, through death, separation, or even that she was a victim of some “imagined” abandonment as a child. So she consistently finds people to "re-enact" the same movie, play it over and over again. The only way to have some room with people who're scared of their fates is to find a way to tell them how they help their fates come through. Other advices on how to handle certain strong reactions: · For people who are very traumatized, terminally ill, or in great pain and can’t see a way out, read with unillustrated pips. Give them your interpretation the way you feel is appropriate, but avoid letting them take the reigns of the reading after panicking at the sight of the 10 of Swords. · Don’t let them look at your books. · Avoid cards with keywords. Ex. Troth, Golden Dawn Tarot etc. It’s hard to calm down someone in despair, after they’ve read words such as “ruin”, “loss”, “failure” etc. Good cards will let YOU choose the words. · With some people you have to be a bit dictatorial. Be in control. Assure them if necessary. They have to trust you. I have limited experience reading for others but these points have been true for me, as of today. Your reading wasn’t inaccurate, it just seems like you let the wrong person take the reigns. Bests Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Bean Feasa I the Queen of Swords turned up in the Recent past position - very apt as this woman has had a lot of pain in her life. In the near future position was the 5 of Cups. My friend got completely spooked by this - it's a severe image in the ToP - a faceless statue of the Golem looks down at the 3 spilt cups. I tried to stress to her the fact that 2 full cups still stood behind the statue, and that she needed to remember the positive aspect of that, but she asked to look in the book, and found 'bereavement' as one of the keywords. Most of the pain she has suffered in her life has come from the deaths of people close to her - and when she read the entry her eyes filled with tears. I was horrified. The 9 of cups and the Wheel of Fortune appeared in the possible outcome, and more likely outcome positions respectively, and I tried to stress the positive elements of these cards, but to no avail. Kate

TemperanceAngel	03 Nov 2003
Hi Bean You took me back to my first Celtic Cross reading for a friend, which at the time I thought was dreadful. As others' have mentioned 3 card spreads are great, but if you wanted to try the Celtic Cross then WELL DONE! It really is my favorite spread, so much insight! The Five of Cups really can be difficult for some people, but five's are a challenge and we all have challenges in life. Also challenges can be Karmic Tests, if you want to take it a little further? Remember that after 5 comes 6 and, to me, sixes are turning points. The challenge is conquered and movement abounds. No longer feeling abandoned or restricted. With the Nine of Cups and the Wheel of Fortune in possible outcome what FANTASTIC change. WOF being so Karmic (and links with the Five of Cups superbly). I really think the Nine of Cups brings such a beautiful element into this combination. I do think (and quite often is) relationships are so Karmic. There is so much more to them than meets the eye. Quite like the Tarot, you never know everything about them, you just move into them deeper and deeper. I think the reading was a breakthrough for you and your friend, I am sure you will get great feedback from them! XTAX

Adele	04 Nov 2003
hi, everyone makes mistakes in the beginning of reading and that is how we learn... so now you know what not to do the next time around... I believe that we also learn from our clients (and/or people we may read for)... we learn what works and what doesn't work... like my older son says and lives by: "it's time to regroup." ... know the mistake and move forward and avoid it the next time around. we are forever learning ... when we stop learning is when we stop growing... and if something doesn't work, try something else the next time around... there is always another way. and yes, I agree with Alex, the reader should always be in control, and in turn the querent will trust in the reader... when we read for someone and we are strong in our convictions/beliefs... they will naturally trust our insight/advice, etc. it is the energy we are putting forth that matters and they will be able to read this. good luck with your future readings.

Diana	04 Nov 2003
Wonderful advice in all the posts above. I don't think your reading was bad at all. And in time you will learn how to deal with these "bad" cards and your counselling skills will improve. You have to start somewhere! Of course, your problem you had with the 5 of Cups would have been averted if you used a deck with so-called unillustrated minors. I've never seen someone burst into tears when they see a 5 of Cups on a Marseilles deck. Of course, on Marseilles decks, you have pictures on the Majors, but they are not scary at all. The Devil is quite hilarious, and Death is so caricatural that it's easy to explain to someone quickly that it has nothing to do with actual Death. (Of course, it can sometimes mean Death, but that is rare.) So my advice is: try and learn to read with the Marseilles deck.

PurpleSal	04 Nov 2003
You've had some wonderful advice Bean - not much more I can add...if when I'm laying out the cards (and I have always done celtic crosses - my fave spread) I often say "that doesn't mean what you think it means" - especially when Death or Devil comes up. I also remind them that as far as I'm concerned all cards showing the future can be changed - often when the tarot shows something sad or frightening it is an early warning system - sometimes it says "if you don't change things, this bad thing will happen" or "be prepared as a big change is coming" - but it is ALWAYS hard when you see sadness in someone's future. As you get more experienced you'll find ways of explaining this gently but as the others have said - you don't usually tell someone something they don't already know - and sometimes you have to be blunt. I had someone last week who was very emotional - I saw the end of her relationship and was talking to her, trying to guage whether she knew about it - and she did. She told me it made her want to go away and really think about what SHE wanted from the situation and clarified her thinking. You are sometimes part therapist, part agony aunt, part mystic with the cards. It can be wonderful, it can be difficult, especially when it's someone you love that you're reading for. But in the long run, I think the clarification and advice you get from readings is worth it. Don't let this stop you - keep practising and learning and growing. Sal x

Bean Feasa	04 Nov 2003
Folks, thanks a million for your replies - it's great to get some listening ears and the benefit of all your experience. Several of you made the point about control and I think that's very true because one of the main feelings I had was that I had let the reading get out of control. Also the book is definitely staying in my bag next time too. D'you know, the irony of the situation is that Death turned up in the spread in the position of self at the bottom of the staff (Card 7 I think) Luckily it flashed through my mind that I'd read somewhere it can mean how you're contributing to your own situation and I asked her if she felt she was choking something off, knocking it on the head before it got started at all. She said she thought that was definitely the case, and seemed perfectly at ease with that. So the card that freaks most people out passed almost without comment, while the 5 of Cups caused such a stir! Strange, isn't it. Diana, I've never even seen a Marseilles-style deck, I felt being a beginner I'd need to stick with pictures to remind me of what the card might mean, but I'll certainly have a little browse now. I do have Tarot of the Spirit which I intend to study at a later date, it has more abstract art and I don't think there are keywords, so that might be good for potentially sensitive querents. Astraea, I do love the Tarot of Prague and totally agree it is a marvellous deck - so crisp and elegant and deep. Don't worry I have no intention of abandoning it.! Kate, X

Diana	04 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Bean Feasa I've never even seen a Marseilles-style deck, I felt being a beginner I'd need to stick with pictures to remind me of what the card might mean, but I'll certainly have a little browse now Kate: Of course, I would always advise people to go about it the opposite way. Because once you have those pictures in your mind, you will never get them out of your head. And most of those pictures only show ONE ASPECT of the card. Either the reversed or the upright postion and it is helluva hard then to remember that in every single thing in this world, the opposite is already a part of it. Yin and Yang. In that ridiculous melodrama of the 10 of Swords on the Rider Waite, where is the Glory of having reached the End of the Cycle? Where is the Victory and the Joy? In the 5 of Cups in the Rider Waite, where are the Blessings of the Hierophant to Heal your Heart (I speak of the Hierophant, because all fives are related to this card)? That's the trouble with starting to read with pictures. It seems an easy way out... but it is also a trap that is hard to climb out of. Oh gosh! I sound like I'm talking of doom and destruction here! Don't worry, there'll be plenty of people coming after me to contradict me :) and tell me I'm wrong!

Dark_angel	04 Nov 2003
Just a humourous aside about the Death card - previous posts made me remember this. A good friend of mine has had tarot readings done before, and apparently the Death card always comes up and so he thinks it's a fix (you know, lots of Death cards in the deck, readers trying to scare poor innocent people). So, when I was at a Halloween party (dressed as a Victorian tarot reader) I read for him, and... Death came up again! We both started laughing, but I thought it was quite significant that the cards keep telling him CHANGE! Especially when it came up in a relationship spread. Fortunately he could see the funny side and begin to appreciate the actual meaning of the card, and the reading went very well after that. Conversely, when reading for another friend (on the same night, using the same deck - Vargo's Gothic), the Nine of Coins appeared as the outcome in a career reading. This card has a gravestone on it, which I felt meant that she would develop a lasting reputation in her field which would have impact after she moved on to new endeavours (she's scarily clever and a vet student). She, however, saw the gravestone as representing death, and sat in terrified silence before running downstairs to the club. How the client perceives cards has a great impact on what they take from the reading, and she saw the negativity of what, in the context of the spread especially, was a positive card. I suppose this shows how we as readers can't be responsible for how another person sees the cards; if they have a strong response to an image, it can be difficult to change their minds. Personally I think your reading was really good - you addressed issues that arose, and tried your best to reassure your querent that even highly negative cards have positive aspects. It is not your fault that she responded as she did, and in fact she may have found the reading immensely helpful, after having time to process it. I think Diana's right about illustrated minors being a trap in a way, as I learned with illustrations and can have trouble with pip cards (especially certain numbers). It's all about personal preference though. I actually prefer decks with illustrated minors, because of the depth of the imagery in the decks I like. Strangely, though, my all-time favourite deck, the Adrian, has pip minors and I can read with it easily! I suppose it's about finding a deck and a system of reading that suits you, and you seem to have pretty much done that, so don't give up! xxx

Bean Feasa	04 Nov 2003
So Diana, I gather that unillustrated pips are interpreted on a kind of numerology basis then, well I'm not sure if numerology is the exact term, but combining a knowledge of the attributes of the number with the attributes of the suit. And linking them also to the major arcana figure of that number. Is that how it's done? What about the major arcana from no. 10 up then. Do they never get to have an influence on the minors? I'm on a major (no pun intended) learning curve here :) Kate P.S. Would you class the Medieval Scapini as a Marseilles-style deck? I bought it on impulse, but shelved it to work with more RWS style decks.

Sulis	04 Nov 2003
Kate , I'm no expert with unillustrated minors - I don't own a marseilles deck although The Crystals tarot has caught my eye and it has unillustrated pips. I think that you can reduce the numbers of the Majors from 10 onwards by adding the numbers together eg. Temperance IX would reduce down to 5 and so relate to the Heirophant. I,m sure that there are lots of different systems to use. Daina or jmd are the Marseilles experts though. Love and light Sulis xx

Alex	04 Nov 2003
Is on the face of the person who punched all those 10 swords on the back of the weeded-out fella. The person insn't portrayed but is implicit. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Diana In that ridiculous melodrama of the 10 of Swords on the Rider Waite, where is the Glory of having reached the End of the Cycle? Where is the Victory and the Joy?

Mystic Zyl	04 Nov 2003
Oh my, please do not get discouraged! I have read for countless people and lets just say not all readings have positive cards. Lets face it, people when they have problems seek advice and we are less expensive than a psychologist. First, I would get a deck that has more friendly picture cards, like Universal Waite to read with. I noticed when I used certain cards with my customers, like Templar, they freaked at the images. Second, I would tell the person I am reading for that this is an reading of energies around them. If something that is not positive comes up in the future they need to shift energy to change the outcome. This reading is usually good for six months, as energies and life's variables change. Third, her reading is not bleak. Nine of Cups shows her wishing to make a positive change. Wheel of Fortune says to cast off the negitive, which I would hope she would do during the the 9 of cups time. I believe that in six months her reading may look more positive. Also, even though there was one major arcana card, The Wheel, the rest were minors meaning everyday problems, nothing serious. I would have more concern if a lot of major arcana came up, but it did not.

Majecot	11 Nov 2003
Bean, I can completely sympathize with you. Years ago, when I was brandy spanking new at Tarot, I struggled with the CC. A good friend of mine found out that I had just bought a deck, and was immediately at my door. "You have to read my cards". I tried to say no, I am too new.. yada yada.. but she would have none of that, she did not care, had complete faith. Well my friends reading did not turn out well. I tried to gloss over things for her. ( she was recovering from a masectomy, and had the worst possible marriage on top of that). I don't remember the details of the reading but it certianly left me feeling like I should not read other people. I still don't like to read for others. I gave up the cc because I did not feel I understood enough, and would get too confused. I still do. I prefer the 3 to 5 card spread. Much easier for me to understand.

mzmystic	23 Nov 2003
Bean, I think that possibly your friend had a preconceived notion that what the tarot would tell her would be something negative. In that case, she was just pre-determined that she'd have a negative experience with it. I don't think you did a bad reading at all. The problem was with her, not with you or your reading.

The Any advice on a bad first reading thread was originally posted on 03 Nov 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.