Tarot during pregnancy

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 14 Nov 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Jenny-Li	14 Nov 2003
Hi folks - looooong time no see... :) I haven't been around much lately, which is rather logical - since i haven't been doing much tarot-work either in a long time, for various reasons. I'm longing to get started again, cuz whenever I don't do tarot stuff, I clearly feel something is missing... But that's another story, not what I meant to ask about. The other day I heard someone say "You can't do tarot work during pregnancy, cuz it could be bad for the baby". Along with tarot one should also stay away from doing any "spiritual stuff". This came from someone who is not into tarot (or other "spiritual stuff"), but who had heard it from someone who does work with it and has recently had her 3rd child. That woman said she hadn't touched a deck all her pregnancy (I don't know about her previous pregnancies, but I would assume she is consequent with her teachings.) Personally I wrote this off as a load of balony the first thing I did, cuz I believe it's like telling a Christian person "you can't pray if you're pregnant, cuz it could be bad for the baby" - or to tell someone they can't meditate, for the same reason. I'm not sure what that woman meant could be bad for the baby, and the person from whom I heard it said something about the psychic powers being passed to the child... I don't buy it, and even if I did - why would that be a bad thing? To me tarot-work isn't so much about mumbo-jumbo fortunetelling (which is what I think that woman is all about - I read her website, and I didn't like it) as a means to reach inside and from there touch upon very natural spiritual sources, which are inside all of us, and most of all in a child, because it is as we grow up that we lose contact with those Sources and need to work hard on re-establishing the connection when we get older. That's the way I see it and that's why I can't see it being harmful for an unborn child, who would be more spiritual than any of us, because the child is still not separated from the Source, that doesn't happen until after the birth. But even though I am sceptic about it, I was wondering what other people think, and wanted to hear you people's opinion in the matter. Do we need to shelter unborn babies from "spirituality" so they are not harmed or what is it we need to shelter them from? Bonus question (cuz I'm curious of what you folks belive): when does the soul connect with the fetus - I mean when does the unborn child start having a spirit of it's own? Does that happen from the start, or by birth - or when? Light and love for all of you! Jenny :)

jmd	14 Nov 2003
The bonus question first - by another question: Why assume the process of incarnation is instantaneous? Perhaps there is a long arduous process by which the individual incarnates - and perhaps this is over many years... As the body of the featus is prepared, part of the changes occuring, I would have thought, is the important change occuring in the to-be mother - including certain changes in her diet, her interests, maybe the music she prefers, certain annoyances, certain details she may never have much cared about before. For some, part of this seems to be a whole new focus on the physical home - but not so much in terms of its physicality, but in terms of its warmth, its beauty, its cleanliness, its colours, etc. In other words, allowing herself to be open to the expressions of the spiritual as it manifests in various ways in one's immediate surroundings. In such circumstances, it may very well be that someone may sense that reading Tarot, or attending Mass, or in other ways participating in spiritual endeavours she otherwise would may in some ways make her, and her future child, ill-at-ease. For others, the reverse may very well happen, and the discovery of Tarot may suddenly become a passion... To read or not to read - to engage in various forms of spirituality or not to do so... this is where the individual mother-to-be, in response to her own opening to the specific impulses and the unstated needs of the incarnating child, needs to be carefully responsive - it is undoubtedly something which varies from woman to woman, and indeed may vary from pregnancy to pregnancy. At which stage does incarnation take place? again, it may very well be not a specific time. For some, the whole invisible web of presence may take place prior even to conception. Usually, however, there seems to be this web of preparation for the process of incarnation slowly emerging as the featus slowly takes human form. A young child, and indeed an infant, in my (and others') view, has not yet fully incarnated. Nor has the older child. This should not, as in the pre-birth period, prevent the mother who is drawn to read, or to meditate, or to practice other forms of spirituality from doing so...

Marion	14 Nov 2003
Hi Jenny-Li, I had seen you posting recently, and welcome back! I know that the issue of the relation of a mother to her unborn child is far more complex than we realized at first. That mothers now routinely do things like expose the child to classical music and other things that they value, and certainly proper nutrition and exercise, and avoidance of harmful chemicals is important. But you are talking about soul experiences including any practice that involves a spiritual way of being such as tarot. To me, to state that practicing tarot while pregnant implies that it is a toxic practice in some way. And I find that idea, as you yourself suggest, would then have to extend to all spiritual practices and would preclude so much as praying. That seems the opposite of what I would think, which is that to live in a spiritual prayerful way calms the mother and makes the birth environment feel safer and calmer. Surely good for the developing child. I have read that hearing the sound of the mothers voice is one of the first thing the child becomes aware of and it is one of the things that makes it feel safe after birth. The bond is strong, and as jmd comments, nothing should be embarked upon that would influence the spirit growing within in a harmful way. To me spiritual practices, not directed at the child, but for the spiritual health of the mother, should be beneficial.

Alissa	14 Nov 2003
... When I was pregnant, I was constantly berating myself for *not* doing more Tarot reading/meditating/inner work.... The body and mind's relaxed state (alpha waves going in the brain, healthy chemicals oozing through one's body from their nerotransmitters) was one I was trying to invoke as often as I could - for the benefit of both myself and my unborn baby. I believed such mindfulness might raise both my awareness, any the baby's, if that were possible. But I do understand your concern. My own concern centered around if the other mental things I had to do would "hurt" the baby -- I performed in a Passion Play at 7 mos. pregnant that required weeping, keening and throwing myself prostrate before a cross. To work myself to this extreme emotional point wasn't easy, and I was more worried about the unhealthy chemicals that stress (even when induced, "pretend," like I was doing for acting) would do to the baby. In the end, I think that our child is still a soul, and has more soul-knowledge than we give them credit for. By attending to our own soul, and our own spirituality (through Tarot or what have you), I believe we create an even more positive space for a new soul to be in. I say, use your cards, and rest easy.

Thirteen	14 Nov 2003
I like JMD's comment about developing reincarnation. A friend of mine, parent to a 3 year old, said "children are little drunk people." :D Funny as that may seem, there's a great deal of truth to it. The brain chemistry gets created, then starts sorting itself out as the child develops. And the child sees things in weird ways (ever hear a kid demanding that a sandwich be cut a certain way or else it's "ruined"?). The more adult, the more "sober" the child becomes--or perhaps just recognizable. So we might very well say that the reincarnation of a soul/spirit is an ongoing process at least through childhood. I don't think anyone hits sobriety before the age of 30 ;) Another friend, while raising two kids, said that the kids were like those experiements in elementry school, you plant a potato in a jar and watch it grow--and you don't know quite how it's going to grow even though you try to make it grow right. Which is to say that there's only so much power and control you have over a child's development. Don't get me wrong--parents have the most power and control, studies have shown that. But life is life. Everything MIGHT have an effect--or not. If you think back, you'll come across things you remember; some things will be obvious as to why they made an impression on you--like the day you first rode a two-wheel bike or won an award or saw kittens being born. But other things you won't know why you remember them, why they made an impression, like a day your mom baked cookies or seeing a spider in a window. All of which goes to say: we want to believe or fear that everything will have an effect on our children--from the womb on. But we can't ever be sure what will have an effect and what won't--outside of big, obvious things like harmful chemicals, outright abuse, or parents who scream at each other day and night. Each child is a unique genetic cocktail--and among the billions of little things that happen in a life, there's no predicting what will bring out certain flavors. What little thing in that jar will make the potato grow one way or another? So, I won't say doing the tarot will have no effect on the unborn child--though I suspect that's the most likely outcome--but I will say it's ridiculous for anyone to pretend they know that it will have an effect, and what that effect will be. The comment, as you so rightly point out, says more about the speaker than about the effect of a pregnant woman's spiritual/psychic nature on a fetus.

Star Spirit	14 Nov 2003
I don't see how tarot during pregnancy would be harmful, unless of course you were afraid of passing it on to your child for some reason. Psychic and spiritual energies are often strong in babies or very young children but most of the time go un-nourished and thus undeveloped. If they are encouraged and developed at a young age when the energies are still in their strongest presence, they may have extraordinary abilities at an older age. At least I have read some books on the subject and I believe it is true :> So frankly, if something like that could be inherited through pregnancy, I would have said bring it on. I was thinking, as far as the energies not developing and disappearing, a lot of it could be because children are shielded from supposed truths with illusions, and therefore led to believe things that might not necessarily be true, and it is not realized until they are much older. For example; Santa Claus is real, there's no such thing as ghosts, etc. When in fact as far as we know there is no Santa Claus and ghosts may very well be real. But the fact that we shield them from their fears by deceiving them or telling them things that we can't prove are true, could be causing them to not believe in the spiritual or eventually believe that the monsters in their closet are all in their head, and although they probably are, this could rule out a lot of things that a child might perceive at a young age but later on say to themselves "there's no such thing". Perhaps this contributes to the dissipation of their natural psychic/spiritual abilities? Then again, if you told your children there were such things as ghosts and the like, they might be more likely to be very frightened children who have a lot of nightmares ;) But, as for tarot...I see no harm in introducing a child to some 'spiritual cards'. It might increase their intelligence.

Jenny-Li	14 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen I like JMD's comment about developing reincarnation. A friend of mine, parent to a 3 year old, said "children are little drunk people." :D Funny as that may seem, there's a great deal of truth to it. The brain chemistry gets created, then starts sorting itself out as the child develops. And the child sees things in weird ways (ever hear a kid demanding that a sandwich be cut a certain way or else it's "ruined"?). The more adult, the more "sober" the child becomes--or perhaps just recognizable. So we might very well say that the reincarnation of a soul/spirit is an ongoing process at least through childhood. I don't think anyone hits sobriety before the age of 30 ;) This is interesting, cuz I think of it the other way around - as I briefly touched upon in my post. I have a feeling that spiritually it's the kids who are sober, and the grown-ups who are drunk. What happens as we grow up is that we grow into the expectations, norms etc of SOCIETY, the man-made structures according to which we guide our lives, while kids are naturals - at least before we start expecting them to behave in a predictable way. Don't misunderstand me, it's not the upbringing and rules-setting as such that is the "problem", of course there needs to be rules, but... some rules and expectations and norms are really just a matter of limiting our own elbow-room, you know - how we "rule out" the Fool, because he "disturbs our circles", or rocks our world in a non-pleasant way. Kids don't have that stuff in them, WE plant that there. So - I'm not critizising your opinion here, this is just the way I think about it. :) To me, a lot of spiritual work is directed at finding the way OUT of this socialized grid that we, the grown-up people have locked ourselves into. Which of course is another reason why I can't see how spiritual work of practically any kind (I could probably find some exceptions) would be harmful for the unborn... I really appreciate your input though, it helped me put some depth to my own perspective as well. And I like the memory-exercise too, you're right, there are many completely "illogical" memories in there, I've no idea why they got stuck while others haven't... It's rather comforting though, knowing that things can't be controlled - that one can only do one's best and have some faith in the Universe to do the rest...! :) Jenny :)

Jenny-Li	14 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Dead Star For example; Santa Claus is real, there's no such thing as ghosts, etc. When in fact as far as we know there is no Santa Claus and ghosts may very well be real. But the fact that we shield them from their fears by deceiving them or telling them things that we can't prove are true, could be causing them to not believe in the spiritual or eventually believe that the monsters in their closet are all in their head, and although they probably are, this could rule out a lot of things that a child might perceive at a young age but later on say to themselves "there's no such thing". Yea, I don't hold this to be impossible at all - we serve our little ones lies that we think more suitable for them than the truth, and in some cases it's probably a good thing - but sometimes I believe we're just narrowing their minds... But as long as the night-mare scenario is the possible outcome, most people will continue to do what they can to shield the kids from things that can seem scary...! :laugh: //Jenny :)

Star Spirit	14 Nov 2003
Quote: But as long as the night-mare scenario is the possible outcome, most people will continue to do what they can to shield the kids from things that can seem scary...! Yes, I agree. But then again, most kids don't have spiritual parents. Thinking about it I think that when I have kids, I'm going to try to introduce them to the spiritual side of life, at least through something gentle like the tarot :>

Jenny-Li	14 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Dead Star I'm going to try to introduce them to the spiritual side of life, at least through something gentle like the tarot :> :) I'm thinking storytelling by tarot will be a great way to start...

Diana	14 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Jenny-Li :) I'm thinking storytelling by tarot will be a great way to start... Hi Jenny!!!!! Nice to see you're back with us. :) I wrote a Tarot story for children once. If anyone is interested, they can read it here: http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/articles/bateleurs_tale.html

Jenny-Li	14 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Hi Jenny!!!!! Nice to see you're back with us. :) [/url] Hi back!! :D It's good to be 'home'! ;) I've missed it here! I think I did read your story, but it's well worth a re-read! :) Jenny :)

Thirteen	15 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Jenny-Li This is interesting, cuz I think of it the other way around - as I briefly touched upon in my post. I have a feeling that spiritually it's the kids who are sober, and the grown-ups who are drunk. Have you got kids? While at a restaurant, my friend's kid asked for katchup with his fries. When his mother, as demanded by the kid, dipped a fry in his katchup, he started screaming at the top of his lungs "You messed it up, Mommy! Youmesseditup!" and was inconsolable. Drunk? I think so. Another kid, while we were talking with her parents, suddenly came up to us and shouted, "You're not real!" Hm...very familiar. In fact, an old man who was liquored up said the same thing to us the other day. Kids do that. They often act just as if they were drunk on something. What did that mom do when she dunked that fry that messed it all up? Only the kid, in his drunken state knew. Frankly, since hearing that little observation, I've observed it to be incredibly accurate--up to and including teenagers. They're all just a little bit drunk--and by that I mean that they can also be "natural"--which I take to mean, awed by what they see. Or haven't you ever been drunk/high and suddenly fascinated with your fingernail or the petals on a flower...just like a little kid? Not saying kids aren't innocent, pure, spiritual or "natural"--but let's remember, the fool falls off cliffs. And let's remember that natural includes being selfish ("it's mine! It's MINE!"), kicking and biting (I remember one natural child, brought to the bank by his mother, kicking her repeatedly in the shin because he was bored), and often a complete lack of empathy ("she's fat and ugly, I don't wanna play with her!"). The id rules, and it's not alway pretty.

Umbrae	15 Nov 2003
I remember seeing the ‘Tarot of Oz’ one time. I thought at the time it was a real waste. I find as I read this thread that I was so wrong. What a wonderful idea for story telling (pre and post natal). JMD once told me that Tarot was "A book of seventy-eight unattached pages which may be read in any order or style one wishes, to which any system of philosophy may be applied, no matter how contrived". Well now by-golly, we can shuffle them up and have a different story at bed time each day forever and ever… And we can live happily ever after…

Jenny-Li	15 Nov 2003
Thirteen: I'm really surprised that you see it that way. Drunk - well, only in your eyes because you don't see the child's logic. I'm not saying I do, I'm just saying that kids have a logic that isn't as limited as grown people's logic is. Grown people dope ourselves daily with our preconceptions of how the world is "supposed to be", but still we take the liberty of judging anything and everything that doesn't fit that preconception. I can see a logic to both examples that you pose, meaning they show how "drunk" kids are (gosh, that is a really gross metaphor when it comes to kids, isn't it...) in your world. I don't know if it's the logic of these particular kids, there could be a limitless number of varieties. All valid to a person who isn't yet limited by shallow preconceptions of what the world should be like. A kid who doesn't know the grown-up world doesn't appreciate fat people will never say someone is too fat and ugly to play with. I grew up with an overweight mother, I didn't even realise until I started school and heard what the kids called the fat kids. I just didn't know. I have, on the other hand heard many mothers whining about how fat they are (not!) in front of their kids, and kids aren't stupid, of course they understand that "OK, being fat is is an un-desirable thing". And as to why they call names at all - that has to do with very complex mechanisms that are NOT limited to children. On the contrary it's very much similar to the way grown-ups behave - just look at world politics for crying out loud. It's all a matter of blaming someone else and getting even and calling names. No, kids don't know that, but most of them get to hear their parents arguing, people in the streets arguing, perhaps even fighting. As I said in my previous post: I'm not turning against all forms of rules and up-bringing. But the rules that are exclusively about making all people after the same pattern, so that they will 'fit in', the rules that are just there, without having a particular reason except for socialising and leashing the Fool-tendencies, those rules limit the kids, just as they hav limited ourselves, and most of us can't see the difference. They say if a kid want it's ketchup put on it's food in a particular way that doesn't make sense to its mother, then there's something wrong with the kid - "it must be drunk" or something. The rules should be there to teach the little Fools ;) to stay on the cliff, not make them afraid to ever walk up to the steep slope and look at the view. They shouldn't make the kids afraid to demand their ketchup to be applied in any patter they would like - even when they grow up! That's the aspect of Foolishness I miss in today's grown-ups, because we're all sooooooo worried about 'what people will think' - and people WILL think loads of things that are none of their business, guess they've nothing more important to do than to critisize or laugh at other people's ketchup-patterns or whatever it might be. We're soooo worried about soming out strange to other people's preconception of "normality", we don't even see how narrow that preconception is, and especially we don't see how it limits us. And how we do the same thing to our kids. There needs to be rules, of course. There needs to be limitations to the freedom of action - kids need to learn that violence is wrong and doesn't solve anything etc. But many rules are ridiculous, and serve only the purpose of homogenizing people, make us leashed mass-produced puppets unable to think outside the box. Man, this is a great debate! :laugh: Jenny :)

Jenny-Li	15 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Well now by-golly, we can shuffle them up and have a different story at bed time each day forever and ever… And we can live happily ever after… Beautifully put, Umbrae. And it IS great! :) Jenny

wavebreaker	15 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Jenny-Li The rules should be there to teach the little Fools ;) to stay on the cliff, not make them afraid to ever walk up to the steep slope and look at the view. They shouldn't make the kids afraid to demand their ketchup to be applied in any patter they would like - even when they grow up! That's the aspect of Foolishness I miss in today's grown-ups, because we're all sooooooo worried about 'what people will think' - and people WILL think loads of things that are none of their business, guess they've nothing more important to do than to critisize or laugh at other people's ketchup-patterns or whatever it might be. We're soooo worried about soming out strange to other people's preconception of "normality", we don't even see how narrow that preconception is, and especially we don't see how it limits us. And how we do the same thing to our kids. There needs to be rules, of course. There needs to be limitations to the freedom of action - kids need to learn that violence is wrong and doesn't solve anything etc. But many rules are ridiculous, and serve only the purpose of homogenizing people, make us leashed mass-produced puppets unable to think outside the box. Beautifully said... :) I think the world would be a better place if more adults had the courage to be like kids in these aspects, to be more natural, without being afraid of being ridiculed or of what others might think of them. Some rules are needed, but it seems that society today is being ruled by the wrong rules...

jmd	15 Nov 2003
With regards to the truth of Santa Claus, it may be worth reflecting that there are different forms of truth. Santa Claus may very well express what at times referred to as Mythic Truth - a truth which, robed in a saga or story, is able to express the otherwise ineffable. Here is the importance and poignancy of the truth of Santa Claus. Is it not true that, in so many ways, the children are gifted to at Christmas time? That those who a caring and 'good' are deeply rewarded (whether or not a physical gift is present)? These are part of the story-cycle which value and teach deep spiritual lessons to the child. It is also this aspect of the child as living in a realm which is akin to this mythic realm which I sense Thirteen has given wonderful examples of, and which the adult drunk may inappropriately only partially re-enter. _____ We are so taken by the pervading scientism (rather than science), that so many of the important tales are even told as though they lacked truth - 'it's only a story'. Why not encourage, rather, the development of the imagination with the truth as embodied in our cultural myths, sagas and important stories? This does move away from the original thread topic - so allow me to re-connect it in ways which incorporates elements mentioned above. For some women in the grace of pregnancy, it may not be the reading of Tarot in ways which may have been previously undertaken. It may be the means to unveil and discover stories which enrich both mother and child...

firemaiden	15 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae JMD once told me that Tarot was "A book of seventy-eight unattached pages which may be read in any order or style one wishes, to which any system of philosophy may be applied, no matter how contrived". Well now by-golly, we can shuffle them up and have a different story at bed time each day forever and ever… ...euh, excusez-moi does someone here inaccurately remember the author of that brilliant sentence, perhaps? Perhaps a jump through this ACME hole might refresh your memory? o

Alissa	15 Nov 2003
(Alissa high fives the hotchick) ~Good one, fire ...~!

Thirteen	15 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Jenny-Li "drunk" kids are (gosh, that is a really gross metaphor when it comes to kids, isn't it...) in your world. I don't see why you consider it gross at all. I consider it humorously apt--as was intended. I watch kids, and it seems a wonderful way of understanding them. You don't try to make sense of what they're telling you, and you don't try to force YOUR logic on them. That's how we handle someone who's drunk--you nod, go along, and say, "makes sense to them." Why gross? As JMD pointed out, their logic appears "drunk"--and that's all the metaphor means. As for my example of the "i won't play with them they're ugly..." I'm afraid I've seen many a kid say that about other kids and NOT been taught it at all by a parent who, instead, tries their best to say, "don't say that, it's hurtful, there's nothing wrong with him/her." One example: A little girl (age 2 or 3) who, on seeing a black child for the first time, said, "I don't like her color. I'm not playing with her." The parents were appalled, and swore up and down that they'd never mentioned anything in their house or child's hearing that might have created that idea in her head--and I have reason to believe this to be true. It was all the little girl's "natural" logic. She'd never seen a child that color before, and it wasn' to her taste--so that's what came out of her mouth. She might as well have been telling her mother she didn't like a certain food or doll. That didn't keep the poor little black girl from being deeply hurt. Once again, I'm not trying to pop your pretty balloon--but I teach children's literature to preschooll teachers. I've talked a lot with them about their charges and studied child development in depth. And my point is simply this: It's as WRONG to put a halo over the head of a child simply because they're a child as it is to put devil's horns on the child simply because it is a child. Children are individuals, they have their own logic, they have their own feelings, and these are different than that of an adult. They are neither naturally angelic/innocent/good, nor naturally devilish/evil/bad. Sometimes their way of viewing the world is far better than that of an adult, yes...and sometimes it's just drunk. And as many times as we might sigh and wish we were kids again, with those fresh eyes, I think, as well, we can be glad we don't have to endure that strange logic, or get "drunkingly" hysterical about a french fry dipped in katchup.

jmd	15 Nov 2003
Regarding firemaiden's quote, I didn't think it was quite mine (the language is more pleasantly constructed, for one). I did seem to recall it, but did not do an accurate enough search to find its rightful owner... Thanks for the correction to Umbrae's attribution of your quote to me :) Quote: ----->0<----- For what it's worth, here is one of Steiner's talk pertinent to the main question at hand...

Jenny-Li	16 Nov 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Thirteen Why gross? Simple: I can't think kids and alcohol in the same sentence. 'Gross' might be the wrong word, if so I apologise for my non-native English. But my reason is still valid. Kids and alcohol don't go together - even metaphorically. I'm also not saying the parents necessarily tells them to call other kids names - what I mean is that it's fully sufficient if there is ONE kid in their school whoose parents are insecure about themselves, or use that kind of language towards other people, and are not able to teach their kids better means of communication. From that kid, who is taught no better, it spreads like a virus. And I maintain: this is not specific kid's behaviour, this is exactly the same pattern that grown-up people use on one-another, and it is my belief that it is from the world of grown-ups that the kids learn that behaviour - it does NOT come by birth. Now: we're getting awful far from the main issue here, could we please let this thread be about 'Tarot during pregnancy'? I wouldn't want this thread moved into a forum-board I can't read because the focus has been skewed, cuz then I'd loose people's thoughts on the main (tarot-related) question. I truely appreciate learning about your opinion the matter, but as I won't change my opinion any more than you'll change yours... Let's call it a day shall we? :) Jenny :)

The Tarot during pregnancy thread was originally posted on 14 Nov 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.