ruling planets in the major arcana.

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 05 Dec 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

HOLMES	05 Dec 2003
i am studying the associtons of seven old planets, mercuary, magican, moon high priestress venus emperess jupiter wheel of fortune, mars tower, sun sun saturn , world (saturn doubles as the earth element in the world as well ) uranus air fool neptune hanged man water pluto judgement fire, signs, aries emperor taurus heiorpant, gemini lovers, cancer chariot leo strenght virgo hermit libra justice, scoriio death sagititus temperance capicorn devil aquarius star, pisces moon. working on the assumption of planets ruling signs knowledge it could be possible that aries, the emperor is ruled by mars the tower taurus the heirophant is ruled by venus the emperess gemini the lovers is ruled by merucary the magican cancer the chariot is ruled by the moon high priestress leo the strenght is ruled by the sun who is the sun virgo is the hermit ruled by mercaury the magican libra is the justice card and is ruled by venus the emperess scorpio the death card ruled by pluto the judgment card sagittirus the temperance card ruled by jupiter the wheel of fortune card, capricorn the devil card ruled by saturn the world card, aquarius is the star ruled by uranus the fool element of air pisces is the moon ruled by hanged an the neptune card. what would this mean to you ? it would take me a while to think of that myself

skytwig	05 Dec 2003
Are you working with the Thoth cards, Holmes?

Marion	05 Dec 2003
In Thoth the corresponences are to three elements, Air: The Fool Water: Aeon (or Judgement) Fire: The Hanged Man the seven old planets Sun: The Sun Mars: The Tower Jupiter: Wheel of Fortune Saturn: The Universe (The World) Moon: The High Prietess Venus: The Empress Mercury: The Magnus (Magician) and the zodiaical houses Aries: The Emperor Taurus: The Hierophant Gemini: The Lovers Cancer: The Chariot Leo: Lust (Strength) Virgo: The Hermit Kibra: Adjustment (Justice) Scorpio: Death Sagitarius: Art (Temperance) Capricorn: The Devil Aquarius: The Star Pisces: The Moon So almost the same, but HOLMES has added Neptune, Uranus and Pluto into the mix for the 'elements'.

Marion	05 Dec 2003
I se what you are getting at HOLMES. Astrology does it that way, taking the House and then locating the 'true' ruler of the House and seeing where it is. That is a more temporal way of looking at things, presumably what you are suggesting would not change over time. Also, I am not sure what it mean that, for example, The Chariot was 'ruled' by the High Priestess.

jog1118	05 Dec 2003
i'll pick one and hope others will answer the rest: aries, the emperor is ruled by mars the tower - in my opinion, this means that no matter how firm a person or organization is with an established way of life, a situation may come wherein the said way of life will not be applicable. the person or organization involved must adapt or everything will crumble down. the downfall will happen for the sake of bringing revelation to the person/organization re their wrong ways. next... :smoker:

jog1118	05 Dec 2003
i've also found this site useful when trying to understand astrological rulerships vis-a-vis tarot http://www.tryskelion.com/preface.htm although the above site concentrates on thoth, i believe concepts discussed are also applicable to non-thoth decks :smoker:

Marion	05 Dec 2003
That there are really only 8 of the Majors that are important and all the rest come from them. The Fool, The Magnus, The High Priestess, The Empress, The Emperor, The Heirophant, The Hermit and The Star. That all the rest show as aspect of these 8. As they combine; as they function; as they manifest. Crowley and Thoth can really give the old cards a spin! btw, the Emperor and The Tower. You should look at the Emperor in the Fey deck. Now there is an image of the Emperor after the Tower.

jog1118	05 Dec 2003
marion: now you got me curious about the fey emperor...do you have a scan or link? :smoker:

Marion	05 Dec 2003
um, no, sorry. I looked at the 'sites that show the whole deck' list, but it isn't there. I don't have a scanner.

Rusty Neon	05 Dec 2003
I can see that there can be a special connection between the Major Arcanum of a sign and the Major Arcanum of the planet that rules the sign. But it can also be interesting to look at the Major Arcana of signs as signs and the Major Arcana of planets as planets (separate of focussing just on a sign and its respective ruling planet), and then see how, in a spread (such as a horary astrology spread or a astrological house spread), those signs and planets interact depending on which Major Arcana cards come up in the spread and spread positions.

HOLMES	05 Dec 2003
associating the cards with all 7 planets (for old school astrology ) or ten planets for major arcana, then going back and doing it with the signs ? so example the sign of said card is this but the planet is this,, and if they are in conflict kapow that is why this comes about but if the planets and signs are friends then there is no conflict but a harmony event ?

Rusty Neon	05 Dec 2003
holmes ... What I had in mind was more along the lines of a GD system(with such tweaking as you see fit): 12 zodiac major arcana plus the appropriate number of planetary major arcana (depending on whether you use old vs. new planets) plus elemental major arcana (for any of the 22 major arcana not so assigned to a sign or planet).

HOLMES	05 Dec 2003
i mentioned this in an other thread in talking tarot, but the reasons why i went with the changes to the major arcana of the planet pluto and uranus, and neptune is well. they are the planets that affect mass consciousness on earth for great lengths of time. so elemental wise they are more fixed and stronger neptune being the name of the water god , fits in with the hanged man of the tarot who element is water. uranus they put into the fool due to the meanins associated with uranus , strong desire to be rebellious , unconventional, the planet of seperation (why else is the fool taking a leap of faith , for he is seperated from his creator )desire for great power on the part of the person involved. pluto , being judgement is called the great transformer, and to me judgement means spiritually awakening, it breaks down the old and replaces it with the new. besides that , the other meanings does come from qabbalah of the chicken, which is followed by lon milo duquette, which is based on crowley order,, which meanings came from the golden dawn,, who influenced the rider, bota, and every other tarot in some way or another (example people who copy the rider images but don't know the deeper meaning ) besides the change of strenght with justice of the toth vs rider, which is the qabbalistic change .. the astrology for the tarot meanings , to my understanding came from applying the major arcana to the qabbalah paths , which had astrology meanings before hand ?(i think that is why the question mark ) . one can see in my latest reading exchange thread that i used the tarot to read a person natal chart (without aspects for i dont' understand that ) with the aspects i would venture that it would make a more complete picture between cards. and i was thinking of the planet in the sign was the one that ruled it in the natal chart .. AND KAPOW i said HEYYYY eheh

Mystic Zyl	05 Dec 2003
Holmes you are so RIGHT about the assignment of the zodiac to the Majors. I get so upset when I buy tarot decks and they have it different. Holmes you are a brilliant!

Minderwiz	06 Dec 2003
This is an area where there are no right answers - its more a question of what 'feels' right. It's also an area of considerable confusion about terminology, especially the word 'ruler'. As I see it, there are two issues or threads to this. The first is Astrological Rulership and the second is Tarot Correspondences. Dealing with Astrological Rulership first: There is considerable confusion amongst Astrologers as to the meaning of the word 'ruler'. Broadly speaking there are two approaches - the first is one of 'association', 'correspondence', 'similarity'. Thus Pluto was the god of the underworld and therefore the planet Pluto can be seen as ruler of underground places, such as mineshafts and deep caverns. Mercury was the messenger of the gods, so Mercury rules communication devices such as telephones, transportation systems and the central nervous system. All Astrologers will used the word 'ruler' in this way at some time or other. The second broad meaning lies in the rulership of the signs of the Zodiac. These rulerships were allocated more than two thousand years ago at a time when the outer planets were unknown. The rulership was based on a system relating to distance from the Sun and the natural year. Thus the Sun rules high summer (Leo in the Northern hemisphere) and Saturn (the furthest visible planet from the Sun) rules the 'depths' of Winter (Aquarius in the Northern hemisphere). These rulerships are not allocated on a base of similarity or association - indeed Mars was accorded the rulership of the Water sign, Scorpio, which is the opposite of hot and firey (but calms Mars' energy down and enables it to be expressed in a more sympathetic and caring way). Unfortunately this basis of rulership was lost when Astrology was driven out of the universities and then out of 'acceptable practise' by scientists. Thus when the outer planets were discovered it was felt that they should be awarded sign rulership and this was done on the basis of association (though there was much debate about whether Pluto should really rule Aries). Those of us who keep to the original system point out that if Mars doesn't rule Scorpio, then it can't continue to rule Aries because the system no longer applies and we might as well abandon sign rulership or put it all on the basis of association. Turning more briefly to Tarot correspondences, on the basis of traditional rulerships, Venus rules Taurus, so as Holmes implies it might then be possible to say does the card corresponding to Venus rule the card corresponding to Taurus (Empress and Hierophant respectively). And if it does in what sense does it 'rule'? Astrologically Venus in Taurus is strong and more able to act but does this make sense in a Tarot context - what would the Empress in the Hierophant mean if anything? I think therefore we are back to associations and correspondences - to what extent, if at all, does the Empress correspond to or associate with the Hierophant? and for Tarot purposes does Saturn or Uranus 'rule' Aquarius? I think we need to exercise great care. Association is helpful, stimulates thinking and indeed lateral thinking but the Tarot is not a development of Astrology nor is it a development of the Qabbala. It is possible to draw on those to illuminate our thoughts about Tarot and they may well produce insights into the variety of meanings that a card can reflect. But if we become too rigid and set up a 'correct' system of correspondences this actually closes down possible thought patterns and possible areas of meaning that can be explored.

Myrrha	06 Dec 2003
I agree with what Minderwiz said, and I have no interest in subscribing to a rigid set of "correct" correspondences. Still Holmes' idea is very interesting! It could be that: Venus (Empress) rules the Heirophant because he is a spiritual leader who shares his wisdom and knowledge out of love for the people he teaches, to nurture them and help them in their growth. Jupiter (wheel of fortune) rules the temperance card because temperance is partly about learning to temper your reaction to the world around you, your desires and aversions. Learning to see that there is both good and bad in situations and in the things that fortune has brought us. Thank you for posting this, Holmes! I just got the Visconti re-creation and am thinking that looking at astrological correspondences could be a fun and appropriate way to add depth to readings with this deck, especially if only the classical planets were used. Hmmm, this could also be interesting with the Minchiate deck... --Myrrha edited to add: I suppose you could also use the ideas of detriment, fall, and exaltation. For example if the Empress card falls in a spread with the cards representing the signs in which the planet venus has her detriment and fall it could indicate a more "negative" reading of the card.

HOLMES	06 Dec 2003
aye , no right or wrong answers, for me it was a matter of looking at what the information behind the formation of the toth and rider. certainly there are differnt assocaitons astrologicaly according to the person who views it differn. . ah so the context of ruler meant correspondance. ? for me it meant that the one planet ruled the sign and dictate how the sign expressed itself. thanks for the clarification :O) readign the next two paragraphs about rulership is fascinating stuff. i was thinking more of trying to understand how the two cards relate, then seeing if they turn up in a spread together or in one own natal chart. (venus in taurus in the natal chart would be a power assocation no ?) of course that is going past the context of the thread. well according to my astrology for beginners book by william h hewitt it is uranus (as you can see i am just a beginner astrologer , who is full of ideas eheh) the part about the rigidity of a system. it depends entirely on how much an extremist one is, one might say it is all good and dandy but what does it mean ? (refering to the systemic exploration of tarot ) it means nothing , to some and everything to others. lol for me it means seeing depth into a card ,, and with that deep understanding i could read better for my client. of course there are some questions raised 1. how true are the astrology of the gd, crowley and waite assoctions to the tarot ? for me i would of made the moon the moon card, like they made the sun card , the sun card, i want to know why they made the moon the high priestress. 2. perhaps with the new outer rings planets applied to the majors ,, it would change every associton somehow. example sun would become the element of fire , and the sun is fire . ? i just want to reliterate that i am just a base beginner novice astrologer who is trying to understand both by applying them together (it worked for qabbalah eheh, and i think it would work here as well ) i am still trying to think of the ramifications of the rulership in major arcana. so i can't answer what it means as applied.. but it is still an great idea in my mind, and i feel i will explore it soon further

HOLMES	09 Dec 2003
[/b][/quote] aries, the emperor is ruled by mars the tower taurus the heirophant is ruled by venus the emperess gemini the lovers is ruled by merucary the magican cancer the chariot is ruled by the moon high priestress leo the strenght is ruled by the sun who is the sun virgo is the hermit ruled by mercaury the magican libra is the justice card and is ruled by venus the emperess scorpio the death card ruled by pluto the judgment card sagittirus the temperance card ruled by jupiter the wheel of fortune card, capricorn the devil card ruled by saturn the world card, aquarius is the star ruled by uranus the fool element of air pisces is the moon ruled by hanged an the neptune card. [/b][/quote] i wanted to share that there are double house rulerships and so that should be taken into consideration into the possiblities of understanding the tarot deeper. according to the ultimate astrologer 2002 version . sun rules leo moon rules cancer mercuary rules gemini and virgo venus rules taurus and libra mars rules aries and scorpio jupiter rules of sagitturus, and pisces saturn ruler of aquarius, and capicorn, uranus co rules aquarius with saturn neptune co rules pisces with jupiter pluto co rules scorpio with mars that would mean. aries the emperor is ruled by mars the tower taurus the heiorphant is ruled byvenus the emperor gemini the lovers is ruled by the magican, cancer the chariot is ruled by the high priestress leo the strength card is ruled by the sun card. virgo the hermit is ruled by mercuary the magican. libra the justice card is ruled by venus the emperess. scorpio the deatch card is ruled by pluto the judgment card and mars the tower sagitturus the temperance is ruled by wheel of fortune capricorn the devil is ruled by saturn the world card. aquarius the star is ruled by both urnaus the fool card and saturn the world card. pisces the moon card is ruled by neptune the hanged man card and jupiter the wheel of fortune card. so with co rulership , the energies stays true to what was before the discovery of the outer planets while taking in the energies of what is in the discovery of the outher planets. i think i will read a bit and post in a few weeks or days about this correlation would mean tarot wish (like what i did with my numbers extensions system)

The ruling planets in the major arcana. thread was originally posted on 05 Dec 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.