Sadness about Today's 'Tarot World'

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 22 Dec 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Kiama	22 Dec 2003
It happened to the New Age movement. Even today we hear 'I'm an old soul' used as an unsult to somebody who is perceived to be a 'young soul'. It happened in Wicca. 'I'm an initiated Third Degree Priestess. You're not initiated. Therefore you're not a real Wiccan.' It happened in Witchcraft. 'My lineage can be traced back to Lord Hoobledoober of Gregard, who was initiated by the Grand Master Zingelbert Bembledack...' It has happened in today's society. 'I've got a PhD. You've only got a few A-levels.' Or, 'You study Philosophy. I, in the other hand, study a proper subject.' And now, I see it is happening in the ever-expanding Tarot world aswell. It is a shame, because I thought that the Tarot world was free to social politics and people trying to get one-up on the next person. But is appears not. Guys, please hear me out before throwing tomatoes at me! }) Everybody is different. Me, as you all probably know and are tired of hearing, I don't use unillustrated Minors. I can't read them. I'm not psychic. I don't use the Celtic Cross. I'm only 19 years old. I haven't had as much experience as many of the wonderful people on this site. And yes, I use that sugary-sweet, puerile excuse of a Tarot deck, the Robin Wood. My good friend Diana loves using unillustrated Pips. She can read very well with them, and has had alot more years experience with Tarot that I have. (I think?) She is an old soul. I also believe her to be quite psychic. I have other friends who are 'young souls'. Some care not a jot for spirituality and the 'deep things' in life. Some do not get involved in Politics, religion, philosophy, and indeed anything that many consider to be important for today's society. My friend Umbrae likes to throw Toothpicks around and do readings with them. He doesn't care for a structure with Tarot. He likes dark decks: The darker the better. I do believe he'd try and burn my Robin Wood Tarot if he could get anywhere near it! Oh, and he also despises the 25th Blank Rune and considers it to be heresy, whilst around the world others use it to great effect in their readings. Different strokes for different folks I do not believe it does the Tarot world any good to make value judgements based on somebody's preference of deck. I do not believe it will do us any good to look at a Tarot beginner and consider their insights to be worthless. I do not believe we should look at somebody's age and judge their competance based on that. I do not believe that using a certain spread should be a basis for judging the competance of a Tarot reader. I do not believe that needing illustrated Minors to read should be judged as better or worse than any other way of reading. Yet I see it happening. People making seemingly throw-away comments about those who use certain methods or decks, and how this is obviously a sign that they aren't good readers. It isn't that they aren't good readers. It isn't that they are doing it wrong. It is simply that the Tarot appeals to so many different people from so many different backgrounds and cultures, that so many of us think differently and want to approach the Tarot from a different angle. This diversity is what makes Tarot and the Tarot world so wonderful to be a part of. But please please please let us not go the same route as the other mini-worlds given above did. Let us not attach value judgements. We are who we are: no amount of value judgement will change how old I am, nor what deck I use, nor how I read. We should not be judging somebody because they read Tarot in a different way to others. We should be opening our arms to them and welcoming their diverse opinions. Diversity is beauty, and the Tarot world is very beautiful indeed. Blessings, Kiama

Alissa	22 Dec 2003
Kiama, I'm curious if an event sparked this post? To me, value judgments are part and parcel of being human. We quantify, we judge ... and then we take those judgments and hold them up and say, "Look! This is what I believe! So this must be who I am!" Sometimes those judgments help us a lot ... I've made moral decisions not to rob banks in order to support myself, others have disagreed with me. I don't know what I'm trying to say... I guess I just think that most of the Aeclectians are less interested in saying, "Do it my way, or it's the highway," and more interested in saying, "I've always done it like this ... you mean you do yours like that? WOW!" When beliefs are challenged, our ego is challenged. We can learn from it and expand ourselves, or constrict into our set beliefs and hole up inside them. But ultimately it's an individual's decision ... and we can only control our own decisions and reactions. Let the chips fall where they may with the others ... they're on their path.

Lee	22 Dec 2003
I don't have time to respond to Kiama's post fully (I have two minutes left on a public terminal), but I just want to say I agree with every word she's written. I'll have more to say later! -- Lee

mercenary30	22 Dec 2003
I am right there with you. I have been having struggles of my own with the illustrated/pip scenario, as you can see by looking back at some of my more recent questions/statements. I am trying to take a more numerological approach to pip cards, but in the process of learning them, I find that the illustrations in other decks fit the bill in many ways. But still, I want to be able to see pips the same way that tradition says. But my preference is illustrations.

Moonbow*	22 Dec 2003
Hi Kiama I don't see any reason why we can't 'have it all'. I love my illustrated minors decks and I have recently been getting into the marseilles types. I don't intend to ditch one for the other as I want both! Having said that I think some of the non-illustrated pip decks have alot to offer that alot of people don't realise. I like to keep an open mind, ask alot of questions, listen to all the responses, gather all the information and then make my own mind up. But I know what you mean, it would be dreadful if it became and 'us and them' site. I don't think it will, I have found most people here very opinionated but open minded and willing to listen. Moonbow* :)

Mystic Zyl	22 Dec 2003
Kiama....I feel the so called "throw away remarks" you say people are so careless with is what make us all individuals. We all have preferences and please forgives anyone of us for expressing it! Get over it, frustration is a part of life. Better turn that Judgement card right side up. Life is not always fair, it took me a fews years to learn that one. Kiama you need to keep an open mind, for the discernment of others. Yes, I have even mentioned I do not buy unillustrated minors, I seldom do, only if it is oop. That is my right. Do I care if someone reads with them? No. I thought this was a forum to discuss things like this, not in the end to be blasted by you.

anjocoxo	22 Dec 2003
Hi Kiama About what you said, I just want to give you one example; as some people know, a few months ago, I did my own web site, a site about tarot (of course). On the site, I also have a forum; now, this forum works exactly the same way as AT (except that, obviously, it has less members), but it's in portuguese. When I started and finally got it all together, I sent various invitations to several tarot reading people (portuguese and brasilian). One of those was the most famous tarot reader here in Portugal. You know what she said... that she wouldn't participate because she had read my card meanings and, since the didn't agree with the meanings, she wouldn't participate in the forum... I thought it to be extremely arrogant, and told her that the forum worked as an independent part of the site... but even so, I learned that not all people are friendly... some of them are actually quite egocentric. Thank Goddess, God, whatever for having aecletic, because here I really see what tarot is about: friendship, exchanging ideas and learning new things... even if we don't agree about some things, we are all on the same boat. Blessings to all Anjo

Imagemaker	22 Dec 2003
As someone new to the tarot discussions, I didn't know there was a judgmental (vs teasing) attitude toward those who use illustrated or unillustrated cards. Strikes me as just another way to get into a power struggle, which we humans LOVE to do. As a writer, I know how amazingly hurt or hostile a reader's reaction to words can be, far different than what the writer intended or imagined--and this unexpected reaction is especially true of email postings. When commenting on our practices or decks, we may not realize some readers are taking the words as a personal attack. "Thowaway remarks" are often just that, something written in a rush with no hurtful intent. Besides, as Umbrae demonstrated, why don't we just read toothpicks or oil drops? But I see it now: My canola is MUCH more profound than your olive! Wood toothpicks are more spiritual than plastic, everyone knows that! :D Yikes, humans are so trapped in their wars! Somehow we haven't figured out that they're pointless . . .

Maan	22 Dec 2003
Ofcourse i agree with Kiama BUT i don't see the things she is affraid for. Maybe i haven't read the right posts but did not see nasty remarks about how people should read or what are the right or wrong decks to read with. All i see are exchanges of idears. You don't have to agree to respect. just my two eurocent's Maan

miss_apples	22 Dec 2003
ok I have a question...what are illistrated and unillistrated cards? Kiama...I hear what your saying. I think that sometimes people simply word things wrong though and it makes it seem like they are saying that their way is better than yours when maybe they dont mean it like that. Also people get "opinions" and "facts" mixed up. I see it in the music chat rooms all the time...someone will say that a certain band sucks and when you kindly remind them that that is their opinion, they get all huffy puffy and claim its a fact and that everyone should think that band sucks. People should understand that if everyone agreed with everything...this world would not only be boring...but would make the human race weak and it would be very easy for someone to rise up and do worse than what hitler did!

lunalafey	22 Dec 2003
tarot is like spaghetti sauce- everyone has thier own way of making it, but in the end- it all tastes good {hopefully} you can have a paid chef cook you a batch- and the kid in home ec. class, who's just starting- both can be equally good....or perhaps the chef got side tracked and burned to bottom of the pan, tainting the whole batch- my point being- there is NO reason to judge..... kiama- I agree with you fully! it's a sad state indeed- so why? why does it go on? becuase humans are competitive....... old souls/new souls.....take a look at the "whowhatwhere...why of humans" thread......star-seeds......they are probably 'better' than the old souls......but really not- for we are all equal. we have our ups & downs & we all make mistakes and we are all always learning- I'm curious too, as to what event sparked this? was it the artical you submitted? and then go questioned about your age???

rota	22 Dec 2003
Hi, Kiama -- That sort of one-up-manship you're talking about sure does happen. I've seen it before, but I have to also say that I don't see it enough for it to be a big issue... at least in my tarot life. (Maybe I'm not hanging out with high enough poobahs?) Anyway, I'm sure sorry that it's a big issue for you. It's the way the world works, in most of its arenas: big business believability requires an MBA or a seat on the stock exchange, politics require you to have held an office or been to the right schools, churches require divinity schools and the right hat, violin-playing requires Juillard. You know what I mean. Maybe wicca or tarot is getting to be a big enough deal that it has to work out what qualifies as actual credentials? But what makes people get snotty about their qualifications? I dunno. (ps: Umbrae's a nice guy! I'm sure he'd just *threaten* to burn your deck, but he'd never really *do* it...!)

Diana	22 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by rota (ps: Umbrae's a nice guy! I'm sure he'd just *threaten* to burn your deck, but he'd never really *do* it...!) Decks maybe not, but don't ever let him get hold of your Little White Books. It's winter now and he needs fuel for the fireplace.

Marion	22 Dec 2003
Kiama, you make some excellent points and I have seen some of that. Derogatory remarks are part of having public discussions, and yes, folks will always think their way is better. I am perfectly happy to see, to use your example, the Marseille decks discussed and even see it argued that it is 'better' for beginner to learn on them. But, clearly this is just an opinion. As soon as it veers into Holy Writ, then that's a problem, in my eyes. It is hard enough to feel that someone is expressing not just that they prefer their way, their deck and that frankly they don't think much of your way or your deck, but when it feels like a personal attack it gets dicey. I do not think it is. Diana warbles on about Marseille being the one, true deck, which it is isn't, and umbrae goes all seditious and announces that anyone who can't read with toothpicks can't read, which is fun but not to be taken as bedrock fact. It isn't you. "You are not your shoes". Or your deck. Or your reading style.

Diana	22 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Marion Diana warbles on about Marseille being the one, true deck, LOL! I take this opportunity to present the whole group of Warbles. We practice every day for your delight: http://www.songroom.org.au/warbles.pdf Please do not confuse us with the warblers that are the larval stage of the botfly, which infect rodents and rabbits. (I will not show you a picture of these however, it is extremely gross and not for the fainthearted.)

lark	22 Dec 2003
Hi Kiama Being new here I have felt what you have been brave enough to say. I thought I was just being to sensitive. Taking words to much to heart. I have read posts where the idea is expressed that a person has to somehow graduate to unillustrated pips in order to be considered a good reader. This makes me feel inferior. I will probably never read with them. So I am forever doomed to be a fluffy bunny, crutch carrying, illustrated pip reader. Clutching her fluffy bunny Robin Wood deck ( it is my favorite deck too.) Limping through life giving bad readings. :) Diana has a thread up right now about why decks go out of style and no one talks about them any more. I think some of us are scared and intimidated. There are decks I would love to talk about, but I have gotten the impression that my tastes in decks are not up to snuff. So I don't post about them. Call me chicken, because that's what I am. With that said (and it gave me a nervous stomach ache to write all this) I have adopted the attitude of "If I can't take the heat I'd better get out of the forum." People will have opinions, it makes life interesting. The thing that disappointed me the most when I came to Aeclectic was this two camp idea about tarot. illustated/non illustrated cool decks/fluffy bunny decks intuition/ straight meanings I hoped this wouldn't be like the rest of the world. That everything would be met with interest and wonder. That I wouldn't have to prove myself. That there wouldn't be a cool/geek mentality. But sadly there is. I have met some truly wonderful people here. That have been helpful, loving, kind and very talented readers. I will continue to enjoy my every minute here. But I have observed what Kiama is saying. And I may have even contributed to it in some of my many posts. This thread will make me more aware of what I write from now on. I will not sensor my thoughts But I will be more sensitive to all of you, and see things from a wider perspective. Namaste. lark

Diana	22 Dec 2003
I think it is important in life to have the courage of one's own convictions. And to stand up for one's beliefs and ideals. Which doesn't mean that one needs to stick by them for the rest of one's life. Keeping quiet when one believes in something is not a solution. No-one is right and no-one is wrong and everyone is right and everyone is wrong. No-one will be thrown out into the cold snowy and icy winter wind with no shoes on, just because they hold an original and possibly unique belief. Anyone want to see my much loved fluffy-bunny Majors only Tarot deck? (This post began with the words "I think.......")

tabbycat	22 Dec 2003
Praise the Goddess that we aren't all the same! Wouldn't it be a sad, old world if we were? All of us have decks that we like and decks that we don't, but disliking a deck doesn't lessen its value or make it bad, and the joy of frequenting a place like AT means that other folks' opinions make you take a second look and even change your mind. I've always loathed decks with naive art, then I got the Shining Woman deck and, to my surprise, in the flesh it's a wonderful deck with an amazing power and warmth - I'd never have discovered that without the diversity of this forum. Sadly, the world is judgemental and seems to be moving towards cold, restrictive order. You practically need a degree to shift garbage these days! I hope that tarot in general and AT in particular don't go down that path. Jilly

Diana	22 Dec 2003
We used to debate an awful lot about reversals and non-reversals. Now we debate frequently about illustrated pips and so-called unillustrated pips. Tomorrow we will debate about some other important aspect. The wheel turns..........

Umbrae	22 Dec 2003
That's why I always ask folks the "Why do you read?" There's nothing wrong with using a Robin Wood, or using a Celtic Cross, or whatever. I personally love Kiama FOR the way she reads, and who she is, and what she is. And I also understand the issue she raises. I was once dismissed as being an extremist. So I may be. But don’t dismiss me. Whenever we dismiss another - for whatever reason - we lose a bit of our own stature. Reading is reading – it makes no difference whether you use pips or pops – we read…ultimately it makes little difference if we use a sunny bunny deck, a heavy or dark deck, or freaking toothpicks…we read… And yes, each of us should stand by our convictions – but never discount the value of others, or their path. Quote: Originally posted by Kiama My friend Umbrae…likes dark decks: The darker the better. I do believe he'd try and burn my Robin Wood Tarot if he could get anywhere near it! Just to set the record straight. I would never ever try to burn your Robin Wood deck. I even own a couple ‘cute’ decks. They have a purpose. Your style of reading works for you. And that's what I like - you don't attempt to change styles every week. You read your way. I applaud that, and will defend your right to read that way. …Love ya babe…

Imagemaker	22 Dec 2003
Through all this, I'm getting strangely attached to acquiring an authentic Fluffy Bunny deck--card creators? Remember the "Pat the Bunny" book?

jmd	22 Dec 2003
There are certainly various views as to which deck may be suggested for those newer to Tarot, and I myself have at times, in addition to mentioning that a deck needs to 'speak' to the person, tried to balance the great imbalances in the numerous posts, as well as the books and decks which have come out over the past century, mainly from US publishing houses, which seem to predominantly suggest that scenically illustrated pips are either the way forward, or the better deck for beginners. Marseille style decks also have great merit for beginners. I also realise that at times my style of writing makes some feel a little intimidated - and another regular contributor to the Historic and Iconographic section of the Forums and I have privately bemoaned that we may 'put people off' due simply to our written style. Even our - or I'll revert to just talking of myself again - my humour has at times been taken with a force of conviction rather than in jest (even those little smilies do not seem to have helped much). There are, of course, other aspects to all this. One is what has already been mentioned: the 'force of conviction'. Many do not hesitate to write as though either the RWCS or the Crowley-Harris deck - or their 'clones' or derivatives, are somehow fuller or superior in iconography than very early decks. I personally disagree. In my posts, that so important middle word of the immediately preceding sentence is, however, usually incorporated within my expressed views, to show that this is just what it is. Of course, however, I have my personal views. As well as one's 'force of conviction', there is another subtle, very charged word which comes to mind: discernment. In addition to the absolute beauty and celebration of the diversity of decks, there are important questions which need to also be asked of decks: how does one determine them to be Tarot. Not just pretty, beautiful, or very readable decks (there are many wonderful and beautiful non-Tarot decks too), but 'accurate', as to their iconography, Tarot decks. I personally have read professionally with (amongst others) the Arcus Arcanum, the Wirth (including its added minor Arcana), the Schaffhouse, and a number of others. In various teaching course, I could extend this list to one longer than the decks of Tarot I personally own. Reading is one thing - to open oneself to the wondrous tales, to the insights into situations, to the small voice within. Discussing Tarot somewhat another. Many have read for numerous years. Of course the types of deck they use will, for many, tend to remain within similar styles. I personally know, and count amongst some of my closest friends, some who swear by the RWCS, especially for the minutia of details which can emerge from the scenes depicted. If you also consider the ways in which I encouraged, for example, AmourA's deck, one 'advice' I kept on mentioning is that his deck needs to be his - ie, I personally never even attempted to move its images towards Marseille renderings. I write this not because Kiama may have felt some of her reaction comes from my posts (I trust they do not), but because, if not her, undoubtedly others may. If nothing else, clear views which provide a balance to the ways in which, until quite recently, it seemed that only RWCS-inspired views were somehow alright is, in my view, healthy - and will hopefully rectify the single dominant view. The emergence of LoScarabeo as a publisher which also does not follow what appears to be US Games's bias for RWCS numbering will also, I trust, shift the balance. It is interesting that, whereas Kiama feels some sadness about today's Tarot world, I sense greater hope and diversity of views to, for example, the currents... or rather, what felt like a single current, of merely twenty years ago.

Diana	22 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Reading is reading – it makes no difference whether you use pips or pops – we read…ultimately it makes little difference if we use a sunny bunny deck, a heavy or dark deck, or freaking toothpicks…we read… Umbrae: I have thought a lot on this. And I have come to the conclusion that I do not agree with you. I think that there is a huge difference between reading Tarot, Oracles, Toothpicks, Raindrops, or Tea leaves. To start with, Tarot has a structure - 22 Majors and 56 Minors. 78 cards. This immediately points to a mathematical structure - defined from the outset. The minors are divided into four different elements or suits. These suits are divided into two parts - 10 numbered cards, and four court cards. All very structured. Toothpicks and Tea leaves are not Tarot. I'm not saying they are inferior (although they lack the intellectual stimulus which is one of the aspects of Tarot that I find so exciting.) (Okay, I'll admit it, I mean I did say that one should have the courage of one's convictions - I do think they are inferior.) "Why do we read?" is not the same as "Why do we read Tarot?" In my mind, the answers to these two questions can at times meet and overlap, but they are distinctly different. (P.S. Edited to add: when I say "inferior", this doesn't mean that I do not think they those other systems are not valid.)

Moongold	22 Dec 2003
Perhaps we could start a limerick thread in Tarot Games and Fun? The debate up there at Aeclectic To be fluffy or deep and aesthetic? Gnomes and bunnies agree Virtue lies equally In the modern and the historic. There was a young reader named Fool Who was ever, Darling , so c-o-o-l. She scorned doomsayers and Fate - Used both Marseilles AND Rider Waite - Leaving the purists to drool. :D :D :( Edited to make the comment that I didn't intitially read Kiama's comments to be about the Marseilles and post Marseilles decks but really about difference and we how we regard it - and how we treat each other. Moongold

firestorm	22 Dec 2003
Unfortunately, it's not the Tarot World, it's any world that humans inhabit. Since the beginning of time people have "needed" a different race, opinion, belief, nationality, country, car....etc. to feel superior to. It's the human condition. Which doesn't make it right...but there it is. I've seen the posts you speak of. It's been many years since I've given a darn about what anyone thinks of me so I generally just have a good laugh (my family has appeared to see what was so funny at times :D)

RedWood	22 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana To start with, Tarot has a structure - 22 Majors and 56 Minors. 78 cards. This immediately points to a mathematical structure - defined from the outset. The minors are divided into four different elements or suits. These suits are divided into two parts - 10 numbered cards, and four court cards. All very structured. Toothpicks and Tea leaves are not Tarot. I'm not saying they are inferior (although they lack the intellectual stimulus which is one of the aspects of Tarot that I find so exciting.) (Okay, I'll admit it, I mean I did say that one should have the courage of one's convictions - I do think they are inferior.) When I first read this. I admit I was taken aback a bit. I have to agree with Diana as a point. Intellectual stimuli I would agree tarot has it. As for the others. If it is distincly for intuitution. Everything from Tarot--Oil puddles work. I believe it really depends on what you prefer. I do not like to study tarot. I like just whipping out the cards. Reading them as is. Illustrated/non-illustrated. I do not read the numbers and most of the time I don't even bother with the suit. Then you get where you don't read at all. Your life is in shambles and the fear is there. Some people will read on a day/weekly/month/year basis. THen you read a thread such as this. Seeing all the people and say. There are a lot of people dealing with their lives and we are all here for a reason. So face it. I think it comes down to what we can deal with best and by challenging that. It helps bring us back to what we got there with first. Like I believe everyone has. Words are words and sometimes it is hard to deal with how people come across. WHen someone comes up with a thread such as this. It opens us all back up. Reminding us why we are here and where we are going. Gosh I hope i have not gone off topic. My thoughts get lost in my own head.

firemaiden	22 Dec 2003
I think it needs to be said that the Anglo-saxon Rider-waite-smith-illustrated-pips tradition does not need defending. It is a tradition that has imposed itself as commercially dominant, and which has also long been the dominant tradition on this site. Apparent tension, and the sense of being under attack may have evolved from the efforts of those in the minority opinion to bring their views to the forefront. Proponents of the Marseilles tradition have long felt beleagured and embattled on this site, and through long and brave efforts are now heralding a new era of interest in Marseilles, a kind of miracle if you ask me. Another sparring pair are fixed meanings people vs. versus chaos theory people. Again, the fixed-meaning school has long been the majority view, and as far as I can see, was the dominant view on this site in the earlier days. If a continuing polemic by proponents of chaos theory, (Ooolatekticians?) have caused some to feel embattled, they needn't take it personally. Radical new ideas push and challenge the status quo, they help everyone to grow. The world order is not in reality, threatened. (I also think those who carry the Anglo-Saxon flag and those who champion the Franco-albigensian tradition will have to simply agree to disagree. A thousand years of war have not settled the issue). Let me ask you a question: would the world really be a better place if we all went around saying everyone else is right and wonderful, and never challenged any one else's ideas? *Firemaiden goes off humming the Marseillaise*

MeeWah	23 Dec 2003
I have seen what Kiama refers to also. Some of the attitude or view is inevitable since folks tend to feel strongly about anything of personal significance. That they feel comfortable enough to voice their opinions (& that is all they are--opinions), means that the medium of communication is working, albeit subject to variances. With the diversity that these forums attract, the main focus is the common thread that unites us all--the abiding interest in Tarot. Sharing ideas & listening to what others have to impart are part of the individual learning process. Each has the right & the means to either reject or entertain what is expressed. Personally, I do not see from where nor why a deck such as the Robin Wood would be seen as a fluff or frivolous deck. That it speaks & works for the reader is what counts. That goes for any deck that has those qualities for anyone.

Moongold	23 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Umbrae: I have thought a lot on this. And I have come to the conclusion that I do not agree with you. I think that there is a huge difference between reading Tarot, Oracles, Toothpicks, Raindrops, or Tea leaves. I agree with Diana. I think Umbrae is simply speaking about intuition which many of us have to some degree or other. Those people attentive to their intuitive skills could probably have similar results if they attempted to do what Umbrae is doing. He has been doing this for more than 30 years, however, and is probably a little more advanced than most of us. His insights do not seem dissimilar from the poetic or other spiritual insights one might have watching a storm or the luminous beauty of grass after rain. The Tarot is a collection of archetypal images with deep spiritual and artistic foundations and associations. I think these guide the intuition in specific ways which toothpicks and bones do not - in our culture anyway. Stones and other natural phenomena do have particular significance in aboriginal communities for example I think that people will find their own way. We have to start somewhere and people do that in their own ways On another matter, I deleted my earlier posts because the whole thing about acceptance, cliques and belonging are sensitive issues for me, and for most of us here I think. It seems that this old pot gets stirred again and again, and will ad infinitum in a community like this. Hold fast everyone and proceed in your own way, taking the learning opportunities that present. The spiritual path is really about discovering and using the power within, not wanting that which others have. Moongold

Shade	23 Dec 2003
Ok... I really think it is all about appropriate intent. Here's what I mean. I am often very critical of the Doreen Virtue Healing With the Angels/Fairies/Mermaids and Dolphins decks because I feel that they are often used rather carelessly. One gentleman I know always seems to be in a predicament, this are always a mess and he gets out his Healing with the Angels cards, does a reading and says "Oh good, I just have to believe in myself and remember my connection with spirit and manifest my miracles." And I want to bang my head against a wall. But then my friend Stan has his well worn, well loved angel deck that he uses with a very high degree of success when he does his readings/counseling. It's not that I find the decks to be inferior to Tarot but I believe they are often used in a way that allows people to pass the buck to spirit. Most often people tell me they love the decks because they don't have any negative imagery. That just gets to me. These decks, if you rally look at them are supposed to encourage personal responsibility. I would never refer to a deck or book as "fluffy bunny" and I think it's unfair to judge a person based on their deck. I would also say we should never do anything to stifle anyone who is a new seeker, I might hear something that makes me roll my eyes til they hurt but I tend to hold my tounge and let trial and error take its course.

firemaiden	23 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Imagemaker My canola is MUCH more profound than your olive! Wood toothpicks are more spiritual than plastic, everyone knows that! No waaaay! Pumpkin seed oil is WAY better than your dumb canola oil! And as for toothpicks-- wood, sheesh! Didn't anyone ever tell you, they have to be ivory!!!

Indigo Rose	23 Dec 2003
This is not new Kiama, you're just growing up and going through the disilluisionment that comes with maturity. What you have described is EGOCENTRISM and it can be seen in every religion, every race, and every group of people. To borrow a common quote, "Opinions are like noses, everybody has one." Part of maturity is learning how to define who we are in relation to one another. Ideally we should learn to stand strong in our convicitions, but be willing to accept the value of those with different beliefs. Judgement is part of life...we all do it. This is how we weed out what works for us and what doesn't. In the process however, we need to remember that whatever we choose is OUR personal choice....our neighbor has the RIGHT to their personal choice. This is called FREEWILL, and it is a GOD-GIVEN gift. I have said all this to help you see that YOU are on the right track. You are searching and trying to evolve as a person. There are many young people, as you said, who aren't even concerned about that. Continue on your journey. Be open to learning from those with more experience, but be true to your heart. Ultimately, seek to strike a balance between openness and conviction. This was a good way to speak your mind and you are indeed brave to share what bothers you in this open forum. Hang in there Kiama, you have a great spirit. Blessings! Indigo Rose

Imagemaker	23 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden No waaaay! Pumpkin seed oil is WAY better than your dumb canola oil! And as for toothpicks-- wood, sheesh! Didn't anyone ever tell you, they have to be ivory!!! Ooo, the bad karma from killing all those elephants--I can't even think of going there . . . but you may be right about pumpkin seed. As canola is from rapeseed--rape--bad connotations there for sure! Ok, I concede the pumpkin seed oil but deny the ivory :D

Umbrae	23 Dec 2003
I prefer motor oil. None of that hippy-dippy cutesy folkey-dokey seed oil...no siree bob...I want dead dinosaurs floating on a puddle of water... And anybody who reads with a cutesy kind of oil... Divination is divination....you can justify a legitimacy of a mathematical structure for whatever reason you want - toothpicks or tarot - it's divination - best go hunt down the meaning of the word...want some help? To commune with the divine - to talk to God(dess)...you can misapply mathematics all you want - to can attempt to take God out of the Divine - you can try all you want to… You can then stand on the top of your mountain and point – at all of us who perhaps are different…and you will be alone and godless on the top of that mountain… Structure assumes legitimacy – or you could move a couple of threads over and ride the waves of chaos with me – or you could become ‘special’ and stand-offish cuz I don’t read like you… It’s your choice… Choose wisely…and watch where you step. That could be a dead dinosaur, you shoes could become slick…

Diana	23 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae .Structure assumes legitimacy Does it? :confused:

Dark_angel	23 Dec 2003
I love Aeclectic because of its diversity, and although people are bound to have disagreements and differences of opinion, I hope I have in no way offended anyone. I read with all kinds of decks - I have traditional ones, dark ones, modern stylised ones, illustrated and non-illustrated pip cards - and don't feel that any one is better than the other. I also have an oracle deck, and use playing cards. I appreciate the mathematical theories of tarot, and sometimes use traditional meanings and sometimes let chaos guide me. I have no religion but believe in a Divine somewhere out there. I suppose I'm pretty messed up. I wish I could do what Umbrae does and read with other things, but I'm very new to all of this, and need my cards still. I don't think that reading with tea-leaves is superior or inferior to tarot or oracles, or that unillustrated or illustrated pips are crucial to the working nature of a deck; everybody is individual, and finds their own methods of divination. These may be varied, but in no way does this make them less valid, just different. Bother! Now I want a deck where all the characters are fluffy bunnies! (And personally, chocolate sauce is best!). lol.

Diana	23 Dec 2003
Before anyone accuses me of being a Tarot snob - I use oracles often. I use Lenormand cards for fortune telling (something that a lot of people put their noses up to - but I just LOVE fortune-telling - "you will be meeting a dark handsome stranger" - that is so cool!!!!). I also have some other type of non-tarot decks which I find absolutely fascinating and they give me tons of insight in my life.

Major Tom	23 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae To commune with the divine - to talk to God(dess)...you can misapply mathematics all you want - to can attempt to take God out of the Divine - you can try all you want to… You can then stand on the top of your mountain and point – at all of us who perhaps are different…and you will be alone and godless on the top of that mountain… Structure assumes legitimacy – or you could move a couple of threads over and ride the waves of chaos with me – or you could become ‘special’ and stand-offish cuz I don’t read like you… I agree with most of this or at least that part that defines divination as communication with the divine. And yes, you can talk to God in any fashion you wish. ;) I use tarot for divination and much more. This remains a community dedicated to tarot. Where I have a problem with what you say Umbrae is when you say if I'm not with you I'm against you. :laugh: No one is ever alone. We're all in this together. God is everything. }) When I run into someone who doesn't accept me for who I am I imagine a mirror in front of their face and imagine it's me saying those words. Then I proceed to set myself straight. :laugh:

isthmus nekoi	23 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Does it? :confused: Structures in and of themselves do not, I think. But pour power into it, and they do. The thing that exaggerates the inherent flaws and omissions within a structure is that which makes a structure less flexible: overspecialization (think: inbreeding) and power (which attempts to maintain the current system to benefit a power imbalance). Tarot has a structure, but it is incredibly flexible. Unbelievably flexible. Any structure that crosses space and time (eg different cultures) have proven both their flexibility and stability and I believe are very important.

miss_apples	23 Dec 2003
could someone please tell me ever so kindly what the difference between illistrated and unillistrated pips is...and what is a pip anyways? I guess I have never thought so deeply about tarot...i just read them.

Diana	23 Dec 2003
miss apples: Sorry! I saw your previous post, meant to reply, and then things got on top of me. We talk of pips when we speak of the pictures on the minors, i.e., the Aces up to the 10s. When Mr. Waite decided to work on his own Tarot deck, he decided to get scenes drawn on these minors. Like the 2 of Cups has the two ladies; the 4 of Cups, that guy sitting with his eyes closed kind of refusing to see the fourth cup that is handed to him. But these scenes were unknown before that on the minor arcana. Before that, the Tarot cards didn't have scenes on them. They would just have 2 Cups, or three Cups, or Four cups. Or three Batons, four Batons....... For instance, the Marseilles decks do not have scenic pictures on the minors. So we say the pips are unillustrated. The RWS decks and their clones, for instance, have scenic pictures on the minors and we say the pips are illustrated. Do you understand, or have I confused you even more? Let me know if you want me to give you some links to some unillustrated pips..... I will find some threads for you so you can see what I'm talking about.

Nevada	23 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama Guys, please hear me out before throwing tomatoes at me! }) On the contrary, I'm looking for a nice firm, red one to slice up and share with you, perhaps with a little salt or mayo. ;) You're right. All the value judgements you've listed are simply artificial barriers that have been raised to protect some pour insecure souls' egos. I detest them, even though I have at times mistakenly used them myself. My advice, if I may, is to let your passionate response to these judgements be the energy that carries you forward to prove them wrong. (In many ways you already have!) Nevada

Nevada	23 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae I prefer motor oil. None of that hippy-dippy cutesy folkey-dokey seed oil...no siree bob...I want dead dinosaurs floating on a puddle of water... Ahh, the wisdom of the Ancients. :joke: Nevada

Little Baron	23 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by MeeWah Personally, I do not see from where nor why a deck such as the Robin Wood would be seen as a fluff or frivolous deck. That it speaks & works for the reader is what counts. That goes for any deck that has those qualities for anyone. That quote says it all for me!!! Also loved the one about spaghetti sauce! When I started contributing on this sight, I always took a deep breath before I typed a single word; I thought that everyone on here knew so much more than I did and wondered what wisdom I could ever add. In my experience, everyone has been very kind, supportive and appreciative of the things that I have written - even though occasionally, people have misread something that I have written and become offended when I never intended to be offensive. I have been reading for a number of years but always consider myself the beginner. There is something really special about viewing things with 'beginners eyes' and that is a way I try to read the cards; find new angles and perspectives. I have many different kinds of decks and flit between passionate affairs with all of them. I hope that the responses from everyone here makes you feel warm Kiama. I have always appreciated and admired your posts and reading style. Differenet horses for different courses. As Mee-wah says, its what you get from the deck that is important. Best wishes yaboot

Lee	23 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Marion It is hard enough to feel that someone is expressing not just that they prefer their way, their deck and that frankly they don't think much of your way or your deck, but when it feels like a personal attack it gets dicey. I do not think it is. Diana warbles on about Marseille being the one, true deck, which it is isn't, and umbrae goes all seditious and announces that anyone who can't read with toothpicks can't read, which is fun but not to be taken as bedrock fact. It isn't you. "You are not your shoes". Or your deck. Or your reading style. I absolutely agree with this. The problem is that depending on how the post is phrased, sometimes it's very difficult not to take it as a personal attack. The problem is when someone goes beyond "this is how I do it" and starts veering off into "this is how I do it and it's inherently better than how you do it." For example, there was a member a while ago who expressed with great authority the opinion that anyone who read only-uprights, i.e. with no reversals, had a psychological problem because it meant they didn't want to look at the negative sides of life. It was a real struggle for me not to take this personally. I think the key is when Marion says "which is fun but not to be taken as bedrock fact." Many years ago I found that I had an anger management problem (I reached this conclusion after I had picked up a dot-matrix printer [remember those?] and smashed it on the floor, whereupon it very satisfyingly burst into a million tiny pieces). I read a book that helped me a lot, entitled "When Anger Hurts." The wonderful lesson I learned from this book was, no matter how much you want to, you never, never, ever will succeed in changing others' behavior. So, you basically have two choices in life when it comes to dealing with others. You can either accept their behavior and learn to live with it, or you can leave. This is a difficult but ultimately a liberating doctrine. It goes along with the idea that you can't control others, you can only control your own reactions to them. So, while I often feel offended at things I read on the Aeclectic forums, I try to take what I need from the forums and leave the rest (I admit I sometimes don't succeed!). Interestingly, the people whose posts irritate me the most also happen to be extremely intelligent, articulate, and kind people who I am glad to know. So while it's difficult sometimes, I think the solution is to, as I say, take what you need and leave the rest. I think it also needs to be pointed out that we're not seeing or hearing each other in the flesh, and it's very easy to take things the wrong way or other than in the way they were intended, which is another reason not to get too upset about anything we read here. All that said, I do agree with Kiama that there are posters on Aeclectic (I hope I've never been one of them!) whose posts seem sometimes to promote their own preferences while at the same time denigrating others', and I wish they wouldn't. But here again, I can't expect them to only post in the way I would want them to. The responsibility really lies with me to not let myself get tangled up in knots about it. And now I feel as if I've let this post get tangled up in knots, so I'll stop now. :) -- Lee

skytwig	23 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama Yet I see it happening. People making seemingly throw-away comments about those who use certain methods or decks, and how this is obviously a sign that they aren't good readers. ... This diversity is what makes Tarot and the Tarot world so wonderful to be a part of. This last statement says it all, Kiama!! Diversity.... thank Whatever Is for it!!!! I would hate to not have it on this funny planet!! Narrowmindedness/ judgement/ opinions are safe. That is why there are so many of them on this planet.... we live by order and security. We create safety with structure.... To "wing it" is frightening ....... This planet does not have systems in place to support much more than Structure.... so, yes, we tend to like it on this planet...... And it can be incredibly subtle...... For instance, do we judge when we say, "Stop judging!"???? Are we making a comparison... are we trying to get everyone to fit into OUR system of how things SHOULD BE ... (In other words how WE think things should be???) Acceptance and tolerance are marvelous principles.... utilizing them enables us to listen and learn.... If we approach a discussion or experience with ideas of how people SHOULD conduct themselves, we may loose out on learning something wonderful!!! Acceptance means no judgement; it means just allowing people to be as they are, whether that be judgemental or not..... Sometimes, when we react to the attitudes of others, we are finding those attitudes within ourselves... we are discovering that we too have opinions and standards by which we judge the world around us. Beginners Mind is difficult to attain, but not impossible.... It means being childlike in our thinking, it means being open to receiving Grand Lessons from ANYWHERE and ANYONE, even the arrogant and ignorant!!!! I find when I react to others who are being what I think is snobby, I am struggling with self acceptance. I am judging myself; I do not have confidence in something within me..... Just some thoughts. ;) PS: I tend to read everything.... clouds, animals, rocks, occurrences, the wind, the weather, dreams, water, fire, sunsets, sunrises, the interior of my Self..... :D

Majecot	23 Dec 2003
Kiama, Please don't say "I am only 19 yeards old. And to be honest, I did not know that untill today. I wish I knew what you do at the age of 19. I love to get everybodys opinions, and while I may not agree with something someone says, I try to be open to their suggestions, because, well lets face it .. if something is not working for me, and I post a thread to ask for help.. what kind of person would I be to dismiss them simply because of age or difference in experience or opinion... because well... hello... I asked for it in the first place. I can honestly say that I have never been offended by something someone said to me. ( that's not to say it could never happen). Maybe I have not been here long enough to see what you see. I do feel that it is a lack of self confidence when we say "I have only been reading for .... " or "I am very inexperienced" or " I am new..." And I have been guilty of making those types of comments. But the type of feedback that I have received and have seen here make me more confidant. Sometimes, at least in my case, I may have to think about an idea for a time before the light goes off ;) I love the diversity here! And people like to debate.. that is what makes the world and interesting place. I hope that you will not feel sad about this anymore. We are all just human after all.:cool:

firestorm	23 Dec 2003
I don't know if I'm misunderstanding a few of the posts in this thread or not, but I'd just like to say that it didn't appear to me that Kiama had a problem with diversity OR debate. I understood her issue to be with the haughtiness that accompanies it at times. Heck, I've even seen it in posts with no debate involved at all. There's a difference between someone simply stating a strong opinion that means a lot to them and stating one with an air of superiority.

skytwig	24 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firestorm There's a difference between someone simply stating a strong opinion that means a lot to them and stating one with an air of superiority. Well said!!! Thanks! :)

miss_apples	24 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana miss apples: Sorry! I saw your previous post, meant to reply, and then things got on top of me. We talk of pips when we speak of the pictures on the minors, i.e., the Aces up to the 10s. When Mr. Waite decided to work on his own Tarot deck, he decided to get scenes drawn on these minors. Like the 2 of Cups has the two ladies; the 4 of Cups, that guy sitting with his eyes closed kind of refusing to see the fourth cup that is handed to him. But these scenes were unknown before that on the minor arcana. Before that, the Tarot cards didn't have scenes on them. They would just have 2 Cups, or three Cups, or Four cups. Or three Batons, four Batons....... For instance, the Marseilles decks do not have scenic pictures on the minors. So we say the pips are unillustrated. The RWS decks and their clones, for instance, have scenic pictures on the minors and we say the pips are illustrated. Do you understand, or have I confused you even more? Let me know if you want me to give you some links to some unillustrated pips..... I will find some threads for you so you can see what I'm talking about. Thanks...yes I understand what your talking about. Personally...I thought the pictures on the cards were just there to look pretty. Learn something new everyday!

Jimilyn	24 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by firestorm I don't know if I'm misunderstanding a few of the posts in this thread or not, but I'd just like to say that it didn't appear to me that Kiama had a problem with diversity OR debate. I understood her issue to be with the haughtiness that accompanies it at times. Heck, I've even seen it in posts with no debate involved at all. There's a difference between someone simply stating a strong opinion that means a lot to them and stating one with an air of superiority. Like firestorm, what I read in Kiama's message was that it wasn't *what* people said but *how* they said it. Sad to say, that when you get a forum this large there will be quite a number of folks who will have a haughty attitude for one reason or another. And some of those will not care one whit whether or not they are uncivil, rude, abrasive, or even cruel. Unfortunately, some people seem to need to behave in this manner to keep up their self esteem. Kiama, it's been quite a long time since you and I have "talked"; however, I remember so well what a lovely soul you are. I can assure you that I understand all too well the topic you have brought up here. It's difficult, yes. Yet it is a human behavior that we will encounter in every area of our lives if we stick with that hobby/interest/job/etc. long enough and become involved enough with it. Certain activities have more of this type of thing happening than others. Hang in there and continue to spread your warmth and light. Don't overly invest energy or worry in those who would zap those lovely qualities with their words and attitudes. I certainly have not mastered the art of not ever letting it get to me, but I continue to work on getting better and better. Thanks for bringing up the topic. It's not a bad idea for all of us to be reminded that respect and kindness are appreciated whereas disrespect and rudeness are not. Here's a couple of hugs because it's been soooo long since I talked with you. (((((Kiama))))) (((((Kiama))))) Jimilyn

Kiama	24 Dec 2003
Hi folks, Apologies for not responding to this thread sooner: I've been visiting parents for Christmas and have only just managed to log on. Thankyou for all your replies: they ahve all given me alot of food for thought, and I am glad to see we have lots of ideas being thrown around. (I particularly enjoyed the discussion Umbrae and Diana had about what is divination and why (if?) Tarot is differen to other kinds. Very interesting indeed, and something maybe meriting its own thread?) Before I go any further I wish to repsond to what Mystic Zyl said: Quote: Mystic Zyl, I think you have misunderstood me. My intention with this thread was not to 'blast' anybody for choosing differently to me. I am sorry if it came across that way, but in fact my intention was entirely didfferent: to simply point out that what happened in the New Age movement may be happening in the Tarot world. (NOT just on Aeclectic either: I did not write that thread simply to air my frustration about a few posts writtenm by folks on here. I have seen it in books, amongst other Tarot lovers here at home, and on other websites. This is not just me complaining about Aeclectic!) Mystiz Zyl, I have no problem with anybody choosing differently to me: if you want to use Marseilles style decks, go do it. What I had a problem with however is anyboy who does so and then says things such as "Anybody reading with an RWS deck is totally ignoring the historical truth of the Tarot, and is therefore wrong." or "Anybody reading with illustrated Minors is only a beginner and will always remain that way." And yes, I do consider them to be throw-away comments, simply because I do not think much thought is put into them when they are said. It is great for people to express their opinions, but the question I am raising is that maybe those opinions about other kinds of readers that are different to that person might be a little too badly judgemental. Now, on the subject of judgement... Judgement is a good thing in most respects. It allows us to assess the safety of a situation. It allows us to assess whether or not we can fit into that parking space. Judging nother person also allows us to asses whether or not we would be safe walking home with them. However, I see a big different bewteen this kind of judgement and the addition of what I, for want of a better word, term 'value jdgement'. It is okay to say 'I judge that person to be somebody I would not get along with', but is it okay o then add 'so therefore they are inferior to me?' This is analogous in the Tarot world to saying: "I judge that I do not like using non-illustrated Minors." and saying: "Therefore, all those who use illustrated Minors are inferior Tarot readers." I hope I explained that well, though I'm not sure. I think Firemaiden asks an excellent question here: Quote: I agree that this world would be very boring and nobody would ever grow and evolve if we didn't challenge each other's ideas. But once again, I think there is a difference between challenging each others' ideas and ataching value judgements to all of that. (see above.) Quote: No event sparked this off, just a growing observation from many people in many different places saying things. I must add that I don't actually feel personally attacked by anything anybody has said recently on Aeclectic: I was just worried that I would see the Tarot version of B*tchcraft and Bicca. I was afraid for the Tarot world in general. My initial post was not asking everybody to agree: that would be boring. Disagreements help us grow, challeneges make us think, other's opinions make us test our own beliefs to see if they stand up. But doing all this with added value judgements (see above) I do not perceive to be a good thing: I see it as a dangerous path for the Tarot world to be taking right now. History should teach us valuable lessons, so please let's learn from them. It is one thing to say to somebody: "I disagree that using unillustrated Pips is the best way for a beginner, and here's why..." and another entirely to say "I disagree that using unillustrated Pips is the best way for a beginner, and I think that anybody who uses illustrate Pips i obviouly a rubbih Tarot reader." The latter is probably not true, it is a sweeping statement that cannot be held in the light of evidence, and it enters into the territory of the aforementioned B*tchcraft and Bicca. (Anybody who has had to put up with this, will know what I'm talking about...) So, I guess that's my conclusion thus far... I hope I have expressed what I wanted to say eloquently enough not to cause any misunderstandings, and I hope I have cleared up a few that previously occurred. Jimilyn: Great to see you back on the boards! It's beenfar too long. :D Blessings, Kiama

Diana	24 Dec 2003
I have a strong suspicion that some of this thread is about stuff I have said. (I have seen my name mentioned and quoted as well.) I can see quite a number of eyes on me. That's okay - I don't mind. I think this is probably because I am one of the most vocal when it comes to illustrated and unillustrated pips - always have been and always will be (there is the option not to read me when I start warbling/cheeping/tweeting/trilling and twittering.) And also I'm not the most politically correct person alive. I will probably never win a Mickey Mouse Pope chocolate medal for political correctness. (sob..... I do so like those medals). If anyone thinks I have implied that they are inferior, then I would like to be pointed out the posts where this was implied and I will make public and humble apologies on the threads concerned if I agree that they have been humiliating accusations. However, I will continue standing up with great passion for the advantages of reading Tarot with unillustrated pips. With passion comes fire. With fire comes heat. If the heat gets too strong for some people, perhaps a Coke with lots of ice cubes will help them feel cooler. (Or gin on the rocks.) And please don't take anything I say personally when it comes to Tarot. I'm not attacking you personally - just telling you that I can't go along with some of your ideas. (There are not many people who go along with mine, and I don't feel upset about that!!!!) (Jimilyn: I also want to take this opportunity to welcome you back! Wonderful to see you again. :) ).

Moonbow*	24 Dec 2003
Re Diana's last post....... When I joined AT I was very nervous as there did seem to be alot of knowledge here, I felt a little inferior because alot of people knew so much and I felt that I didn't. ( no 'one' person made me feel like this - it was me). I am one of these people that isn't afraid to say 'I don't know' or 'can you help me' as well as 'I don't agree' - at times. BUT, I have always found Diana very honest, helpful and encouraging. You may know that I am trying to learn more about the marseilles decks and of course she's right there giving advice - great that's what I want. I joined AT to learn - that's why I'm here. Never once has Diana tried to pursuade me to change my style, decks or anything else - except to believe in me. As I said before, alot of people here are opinionated - that's good - I wouldn't like to think anyone here set out to hurt anyone else though. We're all here because we have something in common, even if we do have different opproaches/views. We all have something to learn from others. Moonbow*

Dark_angel	24 Dec 2003
I'd just like to give Diana a big hug. I think she's one of the most knowledgeable people I've ever encountered, and I deeply respect her. Through reading her posts, I feel I have learned a lot about tarot. Anyone of us is probably guilty of making someone feel inferior at some time or another, whether it is due to difficulties expressing what we want to say, or simply appearing superior in the reader's eyes, or through overwhelming passion for a topic. When I joined, I felt vastly inferior to all of you; you are all remarkably talented people who do things with tarot cards and other divination systems that I had never heard of. I couldn't even tell you the difference between RWS and Marseilles decks! I still feel exactly the same way (except now I've seen those decks and know the difference), and I don't feel this because people "put me down", rather because I read posts and am amazed by the wisdom and insights shown.

Major Tom	24 Dec 2003
Mum used to say, "the best response to the devil is laughter". I remember a story from some time ago about someone who was going to a psychic school and the teacher who said, "ah well, if you need a crutch like tarot...you are not really receiving the truth, your results are untrustworthy." :laugh: Sometimes it really helps to see the humour in attitudes of superiority. I've attended a number of body, mind & spirit festivals over the year and run into my share of those who adopt both negative and superior attitudes. It can get you down if you let it.

Major Tom	24 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Jimilyn Here's a couple of hugs because it's been soooo long since I talked with you. Jimilyn! It's so great to see you! :D How ya been?

isthmus nekoi	24 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama Now, on the subject of judgement... Judgement is a good thing in most respects. It allows us to assess the safety of a situation [snip] However, I see a big different bewteen this kind of judgement and the addition of what I, for want of a better word, term 'value jdgement'. I like that distinction. Being judgmental has such negative connotations, but really it's when you throw value hierarchies in the mix and try to impose those values on others. p.s. Diana, Mickey Mouse is overrated. You get a medal for honesty!!

skytwig	24 Dec 2003
One thing i've learned in Group Therapy (a scary, but extremely fruitful endeavor!!!!!) is HOW to better communicate with others..... I have learned to not point at others.... I have learned to talk about me, not you.... I have learned to talk about my feelings, rather than lash out when i am hurt. I have learned to say, "When you say this......, I feel this..... " I have learned to identify my feelings in a reaction to what another says.... Am I hurt? Am I scared? Am I angry? Surprisingly enough, when one responds in such a manor, the foundation for a 'growth' conversation is established! It doesn't become an argument, it becomes a search for improvement..... The other thing I have learned is to be picky about what I invest my energy in. I am far from masterfull in this respect, (or in the above practice), but I work at it...... I'm tired of wasting my energy on non productive, not growth endeavors!! You know? So, before diving into something, even here at Aeclectic, I ask myself... do I have the time and energy for this?? What do I hope to achieve here? Is there the potential for losing energy here? When I was 19, I had a baby and a husband. I looked like I was 15. In many ways, I had been through a personal war.... my experience with my birth family made me very old in many ways. I did not question whether I could raise that baby, I just raised her. Respect is an internal thing..... eventually, we are no longer 19. Eventually we are like everyone else, same age, maybe older...... I am still learning self respect.... I think for some of us, it is a life long lesson. But, if we work at it, it gets better. :)

WolfyJames	24 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama (NOT just on Aeclectic either: I did not write that thread simply to air my frustration about a few posts writtenm by folks on here. I have seen it in books, amongst other Tarot lovers here at home, and on other websites. This is not just me complaining about Aeclectic!) I have to admit that this is true. Where I'm from, we have a french heritage, heritage I'm proud of. And Le Tarot de Marseilles is French. In most books I've read about tarot, most books written by French people from France, the only tarot they talk and study is Le Tarot de Marseilles, and to the authors the others don't exist. They are simply not mentionned, therefore, Waite and Crowley never existed to them. And many of these books talked about the history of tarot, but no mention of anything else beside Le Tarot de Marseilles. No other kind exists. I've mentionned many times I was traumatised, as a child, by an average hideous and repulsive Marseilles deck. I'm sorry if I offend Tarot de Marseilles lovers, because I'm sure you can't imagine the horror I felt when I first saw one, and that I keep feeling nowadays (but now I do find some relatively pretty like the Fournier). I was interested in tarot, but it was so repulsive that I decided to forget about it. And here, especially then (20 years ago), the only tarot available was Le Tarot de Marseilles. I tried later, as a teenager, to read books on tarot (I didn't speak English then), but these only mentionned Le Tarot de Marseilles. And these books were so boring, dry and intellectual (typical french books). Let's just say I didn't go very far. A few years after that, I fell in love with a tarot (which I thought could never happened), The Enchanted Tarot (Zerner-Farber). I was amazed by it and loved it (still do). There were parts though that I didn't understand about it, so I decided to take my study of tarot more seriously and to read books on tarot. I read books as boring, dry and intellectual as the first one I read, didn't understand much, and mostly, nothing fit with my deck. Because again, the only tarot, whose existence was acknowledged, was Le Tarot de Marseilles. Beside that... nada. And it is still like that nowadays. All books written in french by francophone authors only mention Le Tarot de Marseilles. We can though find plenty of differents decks now, even translated in French, in bookstores and New Age boutiques, like The Enchanted Tarot that I bought ten years ago. But if you want to understand these colorful decks, you must read books in english. And I know many persons who don't speak a word of English. What do they do? What do they do if french authors simply deny the other tarot's existence? What do they do if good books on tarot in English are not translated and published?

purplelady	24 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama And now, I see it is happening in the ever-expanding Tarot world aswell. It is a shame, because I thought that the Tarot world was free to social politics and people trying to get one-up on the next person. But is appears not. Guys, please hear me out before throwing tomatoes at me! }) Blessings, Kiama Here I am to stick my big foot in my Mouth. Years ago I believed this same thing, that this site in particular was free of such annoying lowly problums such as social politics , and "one-upmanship", and social manipulations etc. We're all so enlightened after all! And on a spiritual path, and we're old souls! I found out , unfortunately that these social issues are not only in the workplace, but right here online in the tarot community. I think tarot should be for anybody and everybody who feels so inclined, beginner and advanced alike. However, I learned that some are allowed to proclaim themselves "experts". I am far from being an "expert " reader. However I like both illustrated and unillustrated minors and read with both. peace

purplelady	24 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold Hold fast everyone and proceed in your own way, taking the learning opportunities that present. The spiritual path is really about discovering and using the power within, not wanting that which others have. Moongold This is so true.

Lee	24 Dec 2003
I'd like to add something to my previous post. Even though I'm making a resolution (a New Year's resolution, I suppose) to not get upset with the posts of my dogmatic friends, that doesn't mean I'm going to keep my mouth shut (difficult for a loudmouth like me! :)). When I see posts like that, I'll continue (calmly, I hope) to respond to them by reminding everyone that other viewpoints are always possible. Which is something I'm dogmatic about. :joke: And this I think really is the way to proceed. We can't stop others from posting the way they do. All we can do is to continue to state the things we believe (hopefully in a friendly manner). -- Lee

WolfyJames	24 Dec 2003
I hope people have understood that I was not talking about Aeclectic, but about a situation that I live where I live. I love this place because people here are different with different tastes. If I would have not been here, I would have not read interesting threads about Le Tarot de Marseilles, and I would have never put le Fournier in my wishlist. But I have, and now I'm curious, and I'm ready to buy a Le Tarot de Marseilles and study it. It's already a lot for me. It is the situation that I live at home that hurts me. Let's imagine that I bought The Gothic Tarot by Vargo as my first deck, and not The Enchanted Tarot, and that I don't know anything about tarot, like it was indeed the case when I bought The Enchanted. All I have is the cards and a tiny booklet that doesn't say much. What do I do? Read books you tell me, yes, but they only talk about Le Tarot de Marseilles and they don't match at all with mine. Ask people around, you tell me, well I don't know anyone in tarot. Get a course you tell me, yes, but the course is based on Le Tarot du Marseilles. You ask around and the only tarot that exists is Le Tarot de Marseilles. Anything, books, magazines, courses, all exclusively on Le Tarot de Marseilles, and not one minute do they mention that something else might exist, like Waite and Crowley. What do you think I do with my deck? I'll probably toss it in the garbage, burn it in rage, give it away or sell it, or try to use it, but badly. This is the situation here. Lucky me, I bought The Enchanted first, and I got with it a neat thick hard cover book explaining in details the cards, I got in general the deck; but this situation is rare because most of the decks only come with a tiny booklet. The only way to get the right informations is to read books, written in English. Already, there is a language barrier, that many never cross. There is no book in English at the public library, the only way to get one is to buy one. Here's another barrier: money. Thankfully, there's also Internet and this website, but then again, it takes a lot of money (computer, Internet connection), all that to be able to read with your deck. There are great books that have been written on tarot, how come none of them got translated and published? Why? Here's the question, why??? Decks get translated and published, why not books on tarot? How come it's not happening? And I'm not the one with issues, the french writers and publishers have issues, they're the one who are sick and in complete denial. They're fussy enough on their language to have decks translated and published, but when it's time to talk about another kind of tarot beside Le Tarot de Marseilles, they're suddenly not there? I'm sorry for my frustration, but this is what hurts me the most.

lark	24 Dec 2003
How frustrating for you! I never thought about that. English books not being translated into French. And when you want to learn so badly and you run into a brick wall like that what do you do? Do you think it is done on purpose because they don't want new tarot ideas to creep in? Or just because they think there would be no interest? Well, I'm glad you found Aeclectic and can get a lot of information here. But I can't imagine reading all the great descriptions of books on this site and then knowing I will never be able to read them in my native language. That is a shame. I hope it changes soon.

WolfyJames	24 Dec 2003
My English is good enough to read a book in English, but I've worked and studied very hard to be at that level. And even there, as long as it's not too technical or too litterature. It's not the case of everyone though. I'm planning on buying 78 degrees of wisdom at some point, in English of course, and I'm sure I'll be capable to understand what is in the book. I don't want to think too much on the whys these books are not translated and published, I'm frustrated and, in these moments, we never say the right things, I don't want to say things I will regret and, who knows, I might be wrong.

Moongold	24 Dec 2003
Hey Wolfy James ~ I grew up in the back blocks of Australia and 30 years on can still read a book in French. For some bizarre reason French was the only language they taught in the little country secondary schools that I attended. I always thought French to be the most beautiful language but it has never been one smidgeon of use to me :). I can read Baudelaire in French, and some other poets and that is a nice experience. However Tarot began, I think it is just wonderful that it has evolved to be available to so many different people. Being restricted to the Marseilles alone would be like having spiritual constipation for some of us, as beautiful as versions of the Marseilles might be. Some of us have lots of mutable signs in our astrological charts and if difference was not available you would find us compelled to invent it. :D. I have 14 decks now. They all quite different and I really need that in the work with Tarot. My decks are my Tarot kaleidoscope. Many blessings, Moongold

firemaiden	25 Dec 2003
Ah that was very interesting, Wolfy James. Very interesting to see there is such a huge difference in the norms of tarot, depending on what country you live in!! So, in French speaking lands *all* you can find is Marseilles. Let us all remember that! And not forget that our perceptions are often influenced by the norms which surround us. Music might be an example. Many people find me an obnoxious elitist because I have little interest in popular forms of music. People may tell me I am "sheltered" and feel I am rejecting them. It has long been a source of pain. One day I was walking along my street in New York, which is home to German Jewish and Russian-Jewish imigrants, a majority of whom are either classical musicians, or classical music lovers. As you walk along Bennet Avenue, you hear the music of Beethoven, Brahms and Chopin pouring out of the open windows as pianists are practicing. You hear singers practising opera, violinists, cellists, or people with the radio tuned to opera or symphony.... When I arrived at 181st street, I hit the "Salsa Frontier" the music changed, thumping out of boomboxes and car radios, all around was uniformly Salsa and Merengue. The faces and languages changed. I was in the territory of a new tribe. AT that moment, I suddenly understood, that music is tribal. That my taste in music reflects my tribe, - eastern european jewish. The norms surrounding me since birth have always been classical music. It is was the music of my family, their friends, my social sphere at school, (I played in violin in the school orchestra and studied ballet), etc. Ideally as we grow spiritually, we transcend our tribe to embrace all of humanity. That is a noble aim. Yet, if we understand that our tastes are indeed at least partly formed by our tribe, and that there are some bonds of identity, and loyalty to what one belongs to... maybe we can forgive ourselves our narrow-mindedness and that of others. Some people travel, and visit other tribes, learn to identify with them and embrace their norms. But just think about it, if everyone were as flexible and open-minded as that, there would be no interesting other cultures to visit. If we were all one tribe, there would be no different and unique places to visit on earth. What would be the fun of traveling? I would be seriously bummed if I went to visit my friends in France, and instead of croissants and café au lait in a bowl for breakfast, I were offered donuts and coffee in a mug... it wouldn't be an adventure any more... So, what does this all have to do with Tarot? Our tastes and perceptions in tarot are partly tribal. Rejoice in these differences.

anjocoxo	25 Dec 2003
Well, funny to think about it, here in Portugal there aren't also many books about tarot in portuguese. I'm saying that it's funny because I've never given a thought about it, since english is my second language and I can read and write almost as good as portuguese, so I've never noticed the difficulty of finding books about tarot in portuguese (I don't even look for book about tarot in portuguese, it's not worth it). However, it's true that here it's difficult to find anything trustworthy about tarot in portuguese. You find some books, yes, but most are writen by portuguese, and very few are translations. The last one I bought was "The qabalistic tarot" by Wang, and I have to admit I was totally surprised to find that there was a translation to portuguese of that book. However, books by Janina Renee or Rachel Pollack are not translated (not that they are better than others, just giving an example). So, as Wolfyjames said, you end up with a deck and the LWB... and that's it. And worse thing is, most portuguese tarot books are not that good (some are very confusing and others lack information, even for beginners). It seems that here there are no "middle-learners" of tarot, if I may call it. Either you don't know a thing and for that you have plenty of small books (that only cover majors), or you already have a good background and you can move on to qabalah... now, where is the learning in the middle, that is almost everything - the minors, the simbols, Waite and Crowley, the Golden Dawn.... Hope I made some sense... and didn't offend anyone :D Anjo

mzmystic	25 Dec 2003
OK I didn't get all the way through all the posts, but for what it's worth, here's what I think: I totally agree with Umbrae and I know exactly what he means, but I didn't know it till I started looking up his old posts and paying attention to what he has to say, then putting it into practice. I think what he means by "we read", is that we either hit the "channel" that's flowing out of the Universe and we get in the flow, or else we develop "analysis paralysis" and stultify ourselves because we differentiate and give credit to tarot, runes, or whatever rather than giving credit where the credit lies----to the Universal Consciousness that we can tune into by any one of a multitude of tools including toothpicks if we allow ourselves that awesome privilege. By the way, I do agree with Kiama that it can sound "us vs. them" here, but what it reminds me of is the fundamentalist Christians who get stuck in the rut of thinking the King James is THE Bible and nothing else has merit that's more modern and, for some, easier to understand. Then we have those who want to take it to a scholarly level and I don't usually manage to follow those posts through to their ends. I get sleepy. I haven't been here long enough to associate anyone with any particular posts except Umbrae. His posts just totally ring true and I absolutely respect his viewpoint. Other than that, though, I hope nobody here will think I'm pointing fingers at them in particular because I'm not. I have a long way to go before I know who writes or approaches tarot with a particular style. I'd even have to scroll back out of this post to find examples of anything I've mentioned.

jmd	25 Dec 2003
... and so we are still in the early years of the 21st century... What will emerge in the ensuing years - what will become Tarot's strengths, iconography, and acceptance? What of its international cross-cultural influences? What of the personal and individual variations also needed to make it one's own? And what of its academic, its esoteric, its divinatory uses and interests? Compared to a century ago, where are we? what direction(s) are we taking? These I write as questions... but it is the reflections, not necessarily the answers, which I consider of greater importance. :):):)

Destiny	26 Dec 2003
[quote][i]Originally posted by Kiama And now, I see it is happening in the ever-expanding Tarot world aswell. It is a shame, because I thought that the Tarot world was free to social politics and people trying to get one-up on the next person......... Guys, please hear me out before throwing tomatoes at me! }) Blessings, Kiama ******************************************************** No I will just throw roses :* Kiama it's quite crystal clear that you feel that a few people in your circle have hit a nerve and you feel let down by it ALL. I too had the same experience but i had to think long and hard and move on with my life = If i felt like a job, relationship, friends....... that was working at cross purposes. I would find the right people/situation to bring that in that new change. At the end of the day you can't stop people from making a judgement but you can move away from them. As re: to the "Tarot World" sometime others don't like to see you grow but I see it as the real world. But I don't like the way tarot has become today. Yes social politics and people trying to get one-up on the next person in tarot exists. I always try and find a positive. Why not start your own tarot tomatoe group for people who have the same concerns as yourself :D or check out another part of aeclectic, it's big enough and has plenty to explore. Anyway I hope knowone here has in for you }) :joke: :* Good luck

Cocobird55	26 Dec 2003
Thank you, Kiama, for bringing this up. It brings up some old issues for me, and perhaps my experience will be useful to someone. Because of a lot of things that happened in my life, it is very easy for me to feel judged. Sometimes these feelings reflect reality, and sometimes they don't, but when I'm in the middle of it I have trouble telling the difference. In the rubber stamp world, there is a distinction between 'real stampers' who always have something they are working on, and the others, who perhaps, only take their stamps out for holidays. In the quilting world, there is a distinction between people who hand-quilt and those who machine quilt. In the parrot world, there is a distinction between those who have large parrots and small ones. It is easy, at least for me, to get caught up in this and question my authenticity. Is what I am doing good enough? I am a person who always has an art project going, quilts by machine, and has medium sized parrots. The truth is, it is okay to be who I am. I try very hard to remember that everyone is different, and that is okay too. I have noticed some of this when talking about tarot. However, I have somehow gotten past the point where it bothers me. So some people think that unillustrated pips are better? Okay, but I don't. I think both are fine, and it's a matter of preference or interest. I am okay with not being interested in everything. I have a friend who is getting into Kabbalah. That is fine for her, but I'm just not interested. Maybe I will be in the future, and maybe I won't. But I refuse to feel like there is something wrong with me for not being interested right now. Life is too short to feel judged. No one is perfect, no one knows everything, and people have the right to think what they think. Whew! I guess you can tell that this whole discussion has pushed some buttons. Peace -- Sue

Red Emma	27 Dec 2003
The thing is, Kiama, the world is full of people, who, because they feel empty and unworthy, belittle others so they can feel, "Well, at least I'm better than that person." It's sad and heartbreaking that we raise our youngsters so they have such a negative self image, but at this point in our society's development, I suspect there's not much to be done about it. The only thing which might help is to build up the self confidence of those in your own circle. I know they're irritating as hell, but they need acceptance and recognition more than almost anything. Goddess Bless all of us!

Kiama	27 Dec 2003
AGH NO NO NO! Before I say anything else, I want to make it quite clear once again that I am not referring in this thread to any member of Aeclectic, nor to just Aeclectic itself... I am referring to the Tarot world in general. Diana, it was nothing you said. Everybody, this is not about Aeclectic. It's about the Tarot world. I did not write the original post to complain about Aeclectic, to air my frustrations about a few members. My real and simple intention was to comment on something I've observed recently in the Tarot world in general: books, decks, and many different Tarot groups. It is simply that as the world of Tarot grows ever-popular each day, the same problems that the New Age movement and Witchcraft and Wicca went through will occur to the Tarot world. But I don't want to see the Tarot world make the same mistakes, so I thought I'd post about it. I apologise if it came across as anything else. But please guys, take your minds away from just Aeclectic when looking at this thread and see it in the context of the wider Tarot world. Thanks, Kiama

fairyhedgehog	27 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama But please guys, take your minds away from just Aeclectic when looking at this thread and see it in the context of the wider Tarot world. The problem is that, for me, aeclectic is the Tarot world :D

Diana	27 Dec 2003
Kiama: I re-read your first post. I see references to Aeclectic, to me, to Umbrae, to unillustrated pips and stuff.... all things that are very Aeclectic-oriented. You talk about all the wonderful people "on this site". I don't see much mentioned about the wider Tarot world. Which wider Tarot world? US-Games? Lo Scarabeo? Publishing houses? Self-proclaimed Tarot Associations and creditations? Authors? Deck creators? So I think people can be forgiven for having misunderstood your intentions because most of the stuff you referred to was about Aeclectic. But honestly, even if it was about Aeclectic, you were quite entitled to bring up your worries.... I mean, if you have something that's upsetting you, you have to talk about it somewhere. Positive criticism is not a crime. Negative criticism is not a crime either. The best place to talk about Aeclectic is on Aeclectic itself.

Kiama	27 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana Kiama: I re-read your first post. I see references to Aeclectic, to me, to Umbrae, to unillustrated pips and stuff.... all things that are very Aeclectic-oriented. You talk about all the wonderful people "on this site". I don't see much mentioned about the wider Tarot world. Which wider Tarot world? US-Games? Lo Scarabeo? Publishing houses? Self-proclaimed Tarot Associations and creditations? Authors? Deck creators? My references to you and Umbrae were to show the diversity of opinion, nothing else. I was simply illustrating that one person reads one way, another the other way. Listen, if this thread is going to continue like this, I'd rather it was just deleted and have done with it. As stated before, my original intentions were to simply say that I did not want to see the Tarot world to go down the drain and make the same mistakes as other movements, previously mentioned, did. Everything else is superfluous to this thread in my view, and I see no point in continuing to discuss it. I have given you my honest intentions. I tried to state something that I felt would be useful to state. I cannot explain any further, and I apologise if those intentions were not good enough. Moderator, if you feel this thread is causing un-necessary posts and bad feelings, or if you feel it is out of place, please feel free to move it or delete it. Blessings, Kiama

Agathe	27 Dec 2003