Surfing on the Wave of Chaos

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 21 Dec 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Umbrae	21 Dec 2003
So many posts are about structure, procedure, and style. “How do we shuffle, how do we cut, how do we word the question, do we use music, do we interpret this way or that way?” It’s the western tradition…here are the directions, follow them well, and make no mistakes. So we pick up a Tarot deck and attempt to apply the same procedures as we do to learning to drive. But it has nothing to do with reality. See that table your computer monitor is sitting on? Take a really good look. It’s solid. That’s why your monitor can sit on it. But there are huge spaces between the atoms…the table is more empty space than solid matter. And you know that Tarot card in front of you? You think it’s four and three quarters inch long. But if we examine it in a fractal universe – its length is damn near infinite. We once thought we knew about matter – made of the elements, and we all had a periodic table of the elements in school growing up. Now we find there is a sub-atomic world. We find that the very structure we were taught as true is fallacious. There is the quantum world. In the quantum universe – everything we know is wrong. Things can arrive before they leave, things can be in two places at once…in the quantum world, chaos reigns. I’ve always believed in the validity of an ‘outside’ view of reading, an extremist view. I have also noted that it is not for everybody, but it’s a fun pool to swim in once in a while. You should join me, the water is fine. Some folks are comfortable with the structured reading approach. Where everything has a meaning you can count on. One guy once noted about assigning meanings to the colors of jellybeans and likened it to the reading of toothpicks – he missed the point; he did not read the post, which was about capturing chaos. Structure…. Someone once said, “We take no notice of the blackness of space and give our awareness to the stars, chiefly when a small number of them make shapes – seeming to be order amidst chaos.” Some folks need order. Ages back when I wrote about Toothpick Readings, it was about lack of structure and form. It was about having no meanings. It was about chaos. There is a point in randomness where patterns can be discerned, a point at which statistics go beyond mean-variance and standard deviations. Where chaos breaks down. This is a point that some call magic, others – God. And that was my approach recently when I undertook 7 (turned out to be 10) readings in the reading exchange. It was my personal revolt against the status quo of structure, procedure, and style. I’d like to invite you to examine them. The first reading was for Jewel-ry. That reading used Soul Cards. The deck was tossed onto the floor, I looked at three face up cards and that that ‘was’ the reading. The second reading for Yves came to me by watching raindrops on my windshield. The third reading was for Mimers. I used the Giger, also known as the Baphomet deck. The cards were kept face down for the reading. After I posted the reading, I turned the cards face up. Somewhere in the background ‘Twilight Zone’ music played. The cards were the V – IV – VII. The fourth reading was for miss_apples. It came from seeing a license plate and the I said, “That’s it!” It made zero sense to me but I posted it anyway. Reading five was for She_Who_Watches. Uh…nothing was used. I sat down, kinda zero’d in – or ‘plugged in’ as I call it…looked at her, and posted the result. Agathe’s reading was horrid for me. Once again I used nothing, except a candle flame. The reading for Nevada was staring at oil on a mud puddle. Scorpion’s was done by looking at the shell casings when I went to the range on Friday morning. It was a combination of .45 and .380 shells. Dead Star actually got a Tarot Reading, 18 cards in a spread that I will never share. And Cricket got the reading with bones. It’s just a bag with yeah, about ¾ of a skeleton of a cat (that I knew when she was alive) and some stuff, old coins, subway tokens, rings, pieces of gold. I attempted to stay away from form, or structure. That was the whole point of the readings. The scary thing was posting blind, with nothing to go on. I mean really, look at rain drops and open your mind. Then SAY IT. WRITE IT DOWN! Send it out into the world…you never know… What – you’re afraid you may be wrong? By golly you might be. You may also be correct. You know it’s all about having faith. In something. Myself – I have faith in chaos… What does this have to do with Tarot? Everything. Were the readings good? Not in my opinion, some of them were downright awful...imo. But it all begins with the one question I always come back to…Why do you read…?

Cerulean	21 Dec 2003
Even though you might have minutes or milleniums of experience to draw upon, there is something you do have access to in a very personal way--you have access to yourself and your internal structure of explaining experience. In one post, I remember reading you had given presentations at one point. The readings done here might not have been presentations--but there was an echo of your experience within you of doing presentations and communicating. Perhaps you knew that you would be doing all readings without structure, but builit into your experiment was the expectation that you would 'present' or explain your experiment. My own thought this experiment isn't actually that chaotic if you know there is an endpoint of communicating the process. The sharing of each of these stunning, creative and wonderful way of reading is well-ordered, well-done and well-presented in an orderly fashion. Your experience shows a tidiness in chaotic creativity that I consider quite wonderful. The reason I look and check into reading and tarot structures as much as I do is because I experiment with different cards, patterns and reading styles quite a bit. I usually do not have a framework or ability to explain my experiments as well as you, because I don't picture an endpoint. When I am fortunate, I know an experiment has reached a good conclusion. But it takes a long time for me to know if it my personal experiment is worthwhile to organize and communicate I do not know if there is a truly a beginning or end to chaos, I only know my filters attempt to recognize patterns and structures when I try make my experiences known to others. But I don't think I do half as well as you. I also think I rambled in my reply to you. Thank you for your well-thought out post and experiment. Mari Hoshizaki P.S. I also remember in my untidy associations a surfing reference brought up recently--the child who was but recently a promising two-armed champion-to-be who some weeks later was shown on the surf again---one-armed but balancing and still strong. What a beautiful and brave example, relearning her balances to continue what she loves to do! I continue to learn to read tarot in different ways because it balances me in the different things that I love to do in creative ways.

Mimers	21 Dec 2003
The word chaos alone evokes a feeling of fear in me. It is a very hard concept to embrase. My life has been very chaotic very often. Perhaps when we embrase it, the chaos will not seem so scary. It is getting past the hump. It is true, at least for myself, that I crave order. The more things make sense, the safer I feel. There are times though, that I have rebelled against order and really created my own chaos. How very interesting. How much simpler could life be if we embrase the chaos? I am sure I am not alone. Every time I read that word, chaos, in Umbrae's post, I felt my heart constrict. When I looked at the cabinet that my computer stands on and imagined it breaking down into atoms and space, my mind was screaming, 'stop thinking like that!' I have been reading in coffee shops here and there and purposefully leave any books at home so that I can not refer to them. These have been my best readings. What do I mean by best readings? They are the ones where the message just pours out of me without any thought or contemplation and my querant expresses heartfelt thanks for my help. Thank you for your bravery and your encouragement Umbrae. Mimi

cricket	22 Dec 2003
I saw this thread (or, actually, was directed to it ;) ) and the first thing I did on reading Umbrae's post was go "whoa... that's deep". I read Mari_Hoshizaki's post and thought, 'Yep. That makes a lot of sense'. Then I read Mimers' post and started laughing. (Tip of the day: don't do that when you have a sinus infection. It hurts.) It wasn't a funny post. It actually made a lot of sense. What made me laugh was that at the time I was reading it I was thinking about how great it would be if a person were able to just shrink down to subatomic size and go zooming around through the desk, having all sorts of little adventures, hopping from atom to atom like some people go from island to island or country to country while on vacation. Then again, I am the reigning queen of 'organized' chaos. If you doubt me, come visit sometime. You may not be able to get in the door at times, but ask me where something is, and it will take a very short time to locate. Nobody knows how it works, either. What's interesting is that somebody somewhere along the line (don't ask me who or when) stated that our immediate surroundings reflect our minds and the way our minds work. Maybe that means that some of us are simply more capable of being able to embrace the idea that, really, we are nothing but chaos. The chaos just happened to un-muddle itself enough to make these odd-looking structures that think they're alive, think they rule their world (which is nothing more than another blob of chaotic mass that formed), and that call themselves human. Some of us just aren't wired the right way to be able to wrap our minds around the idea. Now, because this has turned into a ramble and because these meds kicked in and are making me something less than fully functional, I'll call this a post and hopes it makes sense to somebody. Oh! Did I forget to mention that I knew Umbrae would read the bones for me? ;)

WolfyJames	22 Dec 2003
I think one of the most fascinating thing about chaos and emptyness, is that everything in the universe is made in majority of dark matter, or I should say emptyness. And if that emptyness didn't exist, all matter would crush on itself and cease to exist. Actually, the reason why we're not dead right now is because our body is empty, EMPTY! The sun is throwing at us some matters, I don't remember the name, along with solar flare (winds?), a very small matter, and technically, at the speed it's going, the damages done to our bodies would be so important that we would be dead right now and no life could exists on Earth. And yet, life flourishes and we're alive because our bodies are empty and the matter in question is litterally passing through us. Isn't that amazing? Why do I read? I read because I'm curious, because I want to know. Because I love it and can't help it. Because I don't like surprises, because I like to prepare myself ahead, because I think we can alter some of what is to be. I read because I want to be and to do better. I'm still learning, so I still need ropes. I have a poor memory too, so I keep looking at my notes. Once I'll be good enough, I'll probably get rid of them. My mother at some point, got so good, she didn't need her book anymore and she could say stuff right away. I do think study is good, but not too much though. I thought like that years ago about my writting. I thought that study wasn't important, I should just get on the horses, but the results were terrible. But after two years of studying litterature, my writing got better, got deeper, I was even amazed of my style and of what I could write, like if I had in mind an ideal of writind style and suddenly I could achieve it. What I had in mind got clearer and deeper as well. I never studied litterature further though, for I didn't want to change what I had achieved, and I had noticed that university people were too intellectual, they complicated things and were some group who could only understand each other, speaking their own language, close on themselves. I do study tarot, but I don't want to overstudy, and I won't.

Cerulean	22 Dec 2003
Cricket and WolfyJames made some pretty zippy metaphors--lovely, how these kind of posts make us explore imaginative concepts. Both of the above posts made me think of the spaces in-between, or negative space (known sometimes as 'notan') in design that allows our eyes to rest, our minds to define 'shape' or 'form'. Tarot definitions do provide some shape and characterization to 'begin' the reading story. Knowing the 78 meanings of certain decks are delightful beginnings to me, especially if the images are beautiful free enough to surf through, allowing me to imagine more. So I want to add that I find sometimes reading some new tarots can become restful and inspirational as well--a new book or art form. Some of the best tarots though come more alive when I can relate them to readings--and they might not always be the most detailed or rich decks, some of them are mass market titles with rather simple tarot pictures. (Neoclassical or Dotti Tarocco or my newer favorite, 78 card Lovers Tarot). They all have humanlike shapes in the majors and courts, though. By the way, I found the "Chaos Tarot" which is all patterns and no humanlike shapes---I'm not talented in shaping readings from abstract forms. Hope it fits in with the theme of this thread. http://www.chaosdancer.com/deck-n/major01.shtml

lark	22 Dec 2003
I read because I like to be a part of the chaos. To experience the gathering of pieces of information from the past, present, and future. To see the form this chaos takes in the cards in front of me. To be there when the chaos breaks down That is the rush for me. That is why I read.

miss_apples	22 Dec 2003
See now when I see this experiment, I dont see chaos. just because you arent following a systematic method of doing things, doesnt mean that there is not structure involved. I think what one person sees as chaos, another may see as structure and vice versa. Think of a child who likes to keep their room messy, whose parents are constantly nagging them to clean it. For the child, he may actually find that when his room is messy, he has an easier time manuvering through it and finding his stuff in it, yet his parents see it as completly "chaotic" and wonder how in the world their child can stand it in such a mess. I think behind the "chaotic" methods in which you did those readings, you were still getting the messages and the outcomes of those readings from the same higher power...whatever that higher power may be. And that doesnt seem chaotic at all to me...it makes perfect sense!

Imagemaker	22 Dec 2003
I loved Umbrae's post--my tarot teacher said in the first class: beginners use the images. Once you're intermediates, you don't need the pictures. The word reading implies we need a text, something to look at, to answer a querent. Some people don't.

firemaiden	22 Dec 2003
freaking awesome! I especially loved hearing about the oil in a puddle of water one, and the raindrops...

Alissa	22 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae What does this have to do with Tarot? Everything. But it all begins with the one question I always come back to…Why do you read…? I've heard Umbrae post this question in the past and it started me thinking along these lines for myself earlier this year. That process of philosophical introspection brought forth ideas I wouldn't have otherwise come to. I've come to agree with this completely; knowing *why* you read is essential to becoming a good reader - of Tarot, of palms, of bones, of nothing and everything there is in the world. When we know *why* we read, it gives you your "motivation" (to get all Method acting on you). If you read to impress people, if you read because you like the attention you get for it ... the chaos method above would scare the sh!t outta you too much to even try. The "What If I Look Stupids...?" would likely shut one down from even trying it for anyone else either. If one reads because they like to counsel people, and believe that there are many paths to Wisdom, then they may be more adventurous. They may be willing to step outside Tarot's "rules" and learn how to play the game with a new set of rules -- none ... but the ones they decide on for themselves. Thanks for this post Umbrae....

Agathe	22 Dec 2003
I sat for quite a long time thinking what to write and if I should write anything. But then I thought that Umbrae's sooo right. I believe that one is able to focus so much to see things they won't find in the pictures on the cards. I know I will get to that point, as if this means that I can help someone by understanding what is beyond what I can see in the cards, then I think it's worth it. I remember once I did this reaing, when I was learning, and my teacher said...Put your hand on the card (one of the Kings) and tell me who you see. And I described the person to her. But I also believe that it can go with the structure, procedure, and style Umbrae talked about. I guess we can get to any point, it only depends how far we want to get, right? Blessings, Agathe

Marion	22 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae The second reading for Yves came to me by watching raindrops on my windshield. I really hope you were the passenger at the time. Intuition can only carry you so far, sometimes you have to pay attention to that harsh Newtonian world.

Jewel-ry	22 Dec 2003
Umbrae, I love chaos! There is a degree of chaos in many predictable systems. The weather is predictable from weather maps, to a point, but it still has an element of variation within that roughly ordered structure. This is chaos. We are told there will be a storm but within that storm there are areas of variation. Tarot readings are the same, we deal the cards and there is a starting point, each card has its own broad meaning but there are blurred edges and these are the variation, the chaos. What you have done Umbrae is extend those 'blurred edges' to make chaos the bigger picture. You have taken away the starting conditions and you have done that by reading oil in puddles and raindrops. Does that make any sense? This all stems from intuition, from gut feeling. Its like learning to walk. Once we take that first step, we walk around the furniture and then we toddle, then we run and sometimes if we are good enough we race along. Many of us are still taking those first steps. I still think that you had some order, your thoughts were ordered. You were able to make these readings from nothing more than patterns, but you had a wealth of experience to draw on. I read because I believe in what I am doing. If I believe then there is a fair chance the querent will too. Once you have their confidence they will take what they want from the reading. I remember saying when I first started posting here that if there was a wrong way and a right way, I wanted to do it right. Some of you must have laughed and thought 'she'll learn'. I am. I am learning that there is no right and wrong. I am learning that I do get it wrong, but I also hit on some pretty good things too. The querent will take what they want. I did, in this reading. You said 'something about vision, or sight, a piercing gaze.. take long looks now. Meant nothing to me at the time, but now I am doing jmd's 78 cards thread and I have decided to use the Haindl. I just realised about 2 hours ago that there is a big yellow eye on the back of the card! Now, because I believe I'm thinking Wow, Umbrae saw this, but I have made it fit my life. I'm going to stop now cos I'm starting to think I havn't a clue what I'm talking about!! But hopefully someone will get the jist of what I am trying to say. BELIEF - a very important factor, for both the reader and the querent. J :)

firestorm	22 Dec 2003
Thank God my chaotic ways are good for SOMETHING.

Aoife	22 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae There is a point in randomness where patterns can be discerned, a point at which statistics go beyond mean-variance and standard deviations. Where chaos breaks down. This is a point that some call magic, others – God. As I attempt to capture feelings, thoughts..... they slip through my fingers. I don't have the language or concepts to express this, but here's my crude attempt. I learned long ago that linear thinking...cause and effect...just didn't answer my questions. I've always liked systemic analysis, particularly how the individual components strive for homeostasis of the whole, even if it spells doom for them individually. More recently I've been looking for....noticing patterns in apparently random things, events, situations. But that's as far as I've got......an awareness of pattern, of cycles, of spirals. But magic? God? That would require me to trust what I'm 'seeing'.

MattDouglas	22 Dec 2003
Why Do I Read???? Well, Umbrae, I've seen you post this a few times recently, and I don't bother to read every post, so you may be asking this even more than I see. That's a question that has certainly changed over time. At first I studied tarot, becaue I want to be a therapist one day. I have been reading self-help books for years and tend to find my sef in positions among friends and peers (mostly folks of my religion, Baha'i' Faith) where someone need me (or someone) as someone to talk to and confide in. While those stories are sometimes pretty sad ones, I felt a sense of purpose from it. Whilke there is usually a strong bond among people in a given religion, there is often a perfectionistic implies norm in its social scene; though I don't think this was purpose God or any religious founder has in mind, people are human. I found many people coming to me, usually just slightly younger, usually talking to me about how they feel they had "sinned." Or they had been through some sort of hardship, and didn't feel others would listen. on some occasions such survivors needed more than I could provide, but I did what I could to be there and encourage them to seek further help (which, sadly, they rarely did). Nonetheless, i felt they probably wouldn't have talked to anybody anyway, if they hadn't talked to me. Most say they want help and don't really do, but the one who you see make some changes, however small, make it all worth it to me. Finding myself in the position of amateur lay-shrink, I felt called you might say. I wanted to do something to let others know they could talk to me. And so I taught myself tarot. At first, I didn't see it as anything more than a smokescreen for counseling when I made a decision to look into it. If anyone asked why I was studying it, I would say it was to give myself an excuse to develop some counselling skills, without it officially being something that could be considered therapy, counselling-lite I guess. I wanted practice for when I would be a therapist; I sure as hell wasn't getting any practice in school. However, as I started studying tarot, I realized the archetypes involved being pretty familiar with Jung and his works, and said to myself, "Hey, there's something to this!" Then i started doing readings for friends at parties and social events, and realized, "S__T, this really works" and "Hot dang, I'm pretty good at it!" Reading gives me the chance to develop rapport with people who might otherwise just bs with me, perhaps never even interact with me at all. And it feels good. I find many of our day to day social interactions rather shallow, but when I am doing readings people open up. I love that sense of rapport. There's an intensity, genuineness, and sincerity to it, that is hard to find elsewhere, except with those I'm really close to. It's fascinating to realize how deep all lives are, how everyone has a story to tell. Somehow readings help bring out that honesty. Sure, it would be great if we we're this way with each other all the time, but that doesn't seem to be happening at this point in humanity's development. When you really have rapport with someone, it's a great feeling. Even when what you see is extremely sad, even traumatic; it's always genuine when achieved. While I don't want anyone in pain, I realized it's best for pain to be felt, and only then can it truly be healed. There's something powerful about knowing that somebody could open up enough to cry in your presence about something they had been concealing. It doesn't even have to go to that, sometimes it's good just to hear someone say, "yeah, most don't notice that about me, thanks!" Sometimes it's opened up the doorway to conversation with those who might otherwise never have talked to me, who I had seen many times heretofore at a social event and were busy with their personal clique. Sure, sometimes you develop a great rapport doing a reading, and then the person goes right back into shallow social mode, and then ignores you from then on, but many don't. Now when I read professionally in the park, I know I'm reading for people I may never see again. But I like the idea that for at least a little while I get to see something of their life, other than just a non-descript person walking by. And when I'm sitting in the park, with no clients, I remember all the readings I've done and relize that everyone I see has a story to tell, even if they don't want to share it with anybody. Umbrae, I wonder if perhaps you get the same joy out of personal rapport, and that is why you are pressing everyone on the board with this question. I'm glad you did, at least for me. I read because I love it. I love what can develop when reading for someone, whether it be short lived or long. Love, understanding, and compassion, Matt

Nevada	22 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae The reading for Nevada was staring at oil on a mud puddle. :laugh: Cool! Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Were the readings good? Not in my opinion, some of them were downright awful...imo. Umbrae, I'm curious, do you think it's easier to use cards? Also, do you think your frame of mind, the individual method, or anything else affected how well the readings came out? I've been meaning to try a toothpick reading, after reading that thread a few days ago. BTW, thanks for sharing this and for allowing me to be part of the experiment. :) Nevada

jmd	22 Dec 2003
Wonderful post, Umbrae... It again shows the importance in allowing the spiritual world to have a chance to speak through us, whether by imagery or by narrative permitted to unfold. In reading Tarot, there is undoubtedly also a similar process which, when permitted to, unfolds. Tarot has something else, however, which non-Tarot does not have: its peculiar internal structure. In another post, Diana makes a point I totally agree with - though I entirely agree once your question has been answered. 'Why do we read?' may need to be followed by 'Why do we read Tarot?'. In this second question, already it may be that one of the first comments in your post - aligning oneself with the Occidental Esoteric tradition(s) - becomes legitimate. 'Why do I read?' may have myriad self-development or gifting aspects to its answer. 'Why do I read Tarot?', if one is serious about that last word, involves aligning oneself in not only peculiar ways in which the spiritual world unveils itself, but also invites peculiar and specific hindrances - hurdles, lessons or tasks to be mastered or overcome. Not only the reading, but also the paths one walks become part of, maybe, a broader question: 'Why do I use Tarot?'. Here then are two broad question - 'Why do I read?' (which may or may not imply using the Tarot) - and 'Why do I use Tarot?' (which may or may not imply that one uses it for readings). Above, without being spelled out, is also part of the reason I personally do not favour a Jungian/psychological nor physicalist (even though this too may 'work') approach to the cards: they hold, and guide, particular ways, peculiar paths, and connect us to the spiritual in specific ways. This, of course, has implications for decks one may deem or not deem acceptable - but that is another thread :).

Nevada	23 Dec 2003
I read for personal insight and growth. Tarot has helped me to look more honestly at myself, my actions and reactions, and where I need to work, learn or focus. Daily cards have proven to be a wonderful tool for getting a heads up on the "flavor" of the coming day. I'm a slow thinker, and slow to adapt, so I need all the help I can get preparing for what's to come. ;) Recently I've begun to see that Tarot may be a way for me to help others do the same things. One thing I love about the language of Tarot is that it can cross cultural, international and belief system barriers and still be a viable tool for communication and growth. Nevada

13thFaeChylde	26 Dec 2003
"Reading five was for She_Who_Watches. Uh…nothing was used. I sat down, kinda zero’d in – or ‘plugged in’ as I call it…looked at her, and posted the result." I wish I could do that, and make sense of it! Parts of the reading rang true for me, and others still have me scratching my head. The part about being in danger of doing the same thing over and over again is very true about my life right now. The part about the lawn - ??? Maybe it has something to do with getting my garden ready...literally and figuratively. I am a newbie at tarot, and wanted to share that I did a reading in exchange for an astrological reading a few weeks ago. I never heard anything back from the woman I read for, until a few days ago. Turns out when she read the reading I sent, nothing made sense. But over the next week or so, the ppl I mentioned in her reading showed up! Bright Blessings~*~ SWW

Alex	27 Dec 2003
I don't know whether the readings were good or not because I haven't read them, but I tend to agree with one point here: all too often I see people so affraid of making mistakes when they read. Obviously, we ought to take the reading seriously, but if it turns out wrong, then it's wrong and so what? I have made many mistakes in readings (not all of them have been acknowledged by the sitter but I know) to know that it's not a big deal at all. And, the more affraid we are of making mistakes, the more we will make mistakes. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae What does this have to do with Tarot? Everything. Were the readings good? Not in my opinion, some of them were downright awful...imo. But it all begins with the one question I always come back to…Why do you read…?

Moongold	28 Dec 2003
Well, I have a few chaotic thoughts. And a little bit of scepticism about content and expression. I liked Ms Apples’ reflections about chaos. It does mean different things to different people. I don’t really know what it means to you Umbrae, despite your words. In terms of connection with Tarot and Divination, I think your word “chaos” for me simply means letting go – having faith that you are so connected to the Source, or whatever you call it, that you just know that the reading is going to be OK. You have faith that the insights will come. Sometimes that could be so, sometimes not, and sometimes it could be delusional. Did someone suggest that you may have quite a rich and well structured internal world, Umbrae, and that insights and wisdom can just bubble up from there? That’s a possibility. And sometimes you can say pretty universal things that have application to everyone. But because you are an exceptional reader, with tons of experience, people may want to believe there is something profound in what you say, even thought there may not be. I went to see Billy Graham once and got caught up in the mass effect but knew deep down it wasn’t real – not for me anyway. Yet I read stuff about him later which indicated that he was a pretty OK guy. And the last bit of scepticism – You’re a great reader, Umbrae and when I’ve seen you read tarot conventionally I’ve seen some sizzling insights. I’ve mostly seen those insights from you when you’ve been using conventional things like Tarot, runes or oracles that do have some structure. I just don’t know about toothpicks and oil in puddles et cetera. Or is it just that looking at something beautiful or exceptional can trigger off associations in sensitive people that may or may not be connected to the question in hand? I enjoy your readings more when you ask questions. That is opening the door for the querent to tap into her own wisdom and personal sub-conscious. At least she the goes away with a question not an answer that may not be real. If I can do the same in readings with people I would be really happy, or if I can make help Querents make connections between ideas and perspectives then I feel as though I’ve done a reasonable job. I have been thinking a lot about the discussion in fairyhedgehog’s thread where someone said the reading Tarot cards is like using the cards to weave stories. I really like that. Like real art, these are word paintings that can trigger all sorts of associations and insights. This sounds personal because it is a response to you – things that you said personally – but it’s not an attack. Hope you don’t see it that way. Real chaos – formless primordial matter, utter confusion - is pretty damn frightening. I sense you’ve experienced it from parts of your life story that you’ve shared. I have also and without faith it is horrible, deadly stuff. If you are going dip into that kind of water you need to have some vision and strong internal boundaries to survive. It’s not for social swimming. Why do I read? To understand the confusion - to reframe and redirect the narrative - to have some way of connecting with God/ Goddess and to give something to others. I think Tarot give us a fantastic way to understand and make sense of apparent chaos and go forward from there. Moongold

Moonbow*	28 Dec 2003
Hi Umbrae These are my ramblings - they probably make no sense to anyone but myself, but here they are anyway. When I was little I used to 'read' many objects without even realising til now what I was doing. We would be in the car and I would say 'I'm going to count three cars between lamposts' and it would be three. Am I the only person would would walk along the pavement not treading on the grouting between the slabs? I would say the next car I see will be red. 'If so and so rings me before 5pm then I'll say yes'. I can't even remember most of the objects/occassions where I did it but it seems that my whole life I've been doing this. What I realise now is that this was me using my intuition/imagination/spirit - whatever you may call it - and I didn't use Tarot cards! My view is that, some of us need a tool to spark off this intuition. (some of us don't need a tool, but want one!). Intuition is there, but not used because life is right there in our face instead! My tool is tarot cards because I like the art, history the collecting. But I can also use this intuition when looking at a painting, hearing music, listening to rain and many other things. To me the cards make me sit down quietly, forget the everyday mundane life and just think! Otherwise, I wouldn't find the time to think. Moonbow*

firemaiden	28 Dec 2003
A few more thoughts... Since reading Umbrae's wonderfully heretical, revolutionary post, I have had the experience of reading "into" a card, and hearing the seemingly absurd manifesting thought-stream, and giving it voice. (forgive the germanic syntaxe... alas, it penetrates). It was quite an adventure. It occurs to me that this wave of chaos which surges up, inviting us to surf in the face of tarot cards or dinosaur remains... is a kind of magic, which has at once everything and nothing to do with tarot; we can heed the magical voice through the cards or though raindrops... the cards themselves are peripheral to the process. In the 22 Major Arcana, guardians each of a stage in the quest for wholeness of soul (I dare not say enlightenment, for I know not yet what it is), an entirely separate function may also be found. We can lay out these 22 cards, pose our question, and find out what stage of the process needs focussing on. With this in mind, I suggest there is a difference, (as I discussed with Diana) between reading "in" the cards, (as one reads "in" a puddle of water), and reading the cards. Here are two entirely different, yet equally important gestures -- one reaches for contact with a magical inner (or perhaps outer?) voice using the cards as a "support" or "medium" -- The other gesture reaches for the tarot itself, as a guide for life, or perhaps a divine book, whose answers are already written, waiting to be unfurled. In this case, maintaining the integrity of the Ur-tarot as passed down through centuries, will be of utmost importance. However, whether we read the cards as eternal truths from the past emblazoned on eternal memory by way of cards, or... or read "in" the cards, as reading in mud puddles, in each case, we are reaching for something magical, transcending our own time, and place.

Kiama	28 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae There is the quantum world. In the quantum universe – everything we know is wrong. Things can arrive before they leave, things can be in two places at once…in the quantum world, chaos reigns. But isn't the quantum world just another part of the universe we are already in? The 'Newtonian' one. As far as I know, quantum physics and its ilk only work on a quantum level, and not on any other: and there do exist other 'levels'. One such 'other level' is the level upon which we exist. Uh-oh... Hang on, I've derailed my train of thought and killed all the passengers. Forget what I just said, I know it was going somewhere, but I don't know where now... *Confused Kiama* On the subject of 'chaotic divination', I held a Divination workshop a few weeks ago, where I encouraged it. By the end of the evening, we'd divined the future by throwing coloured pencils around the room, flicking paint randomly at paper, and simply observing trickles of water... It worked. Though one thing I observed that makes me realise why I prefer Tarot to all this 'chaotic divination'.... is that... *Tries to put it into words* With Tarot there's the added bonus of tradition, history, other peoples' views, esoteric 'bonuses', spiritual structure, the knowledge of thousands of people all plugged into 78 images. There isn't that in 'chaotic divination'. So, with Tarot I find that I can get deeper, I can go to a level where I can begin to grasp something, even the smallest thing, about what on earth this Universe is, what makes it tick, and where mankind is in relation to everything else. I just don't get that with 'chaotic divination'. Throwing toothpicks is great if I want to simply give advice to somebody about something in their life, but when I want to find out where I am spiritually... If I want to gain a glimpse of the infinite and if where Goddess needs me to go next... I can't get that in toothpicks, nor raindrops. Tarot speaks the same language as I do, and whats more it also speaks the Universe's language (follow the metaphor with me!) so in turn I can catch a glimpse of what the Universe is saying. Let's take the metaphor one step further and say Tarot is the Universe's translator, which allows it to communicate with mankind. Uh, I think I have a point in there somewhere... *Sigh* I really am being thick today... Kiama

skytwig	28 Dec 2003
Chaos does not mean disorder..... it is a marvelous dance of life that demonstrates, continually, that all is miraculous and incredibly accurate!!! Chaos is the language of potential throbbing through every iota of life....... and ALL is alive. Chaos is incredible, considering that we never stumble over each other......

Macavity	28 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama But isn't the quantum world just another part of the universe we are already in? Yup, I think it's called the correspondence principle? And Nooooo... I didn't remember that! It's probably one of those things that appears on the first page of the textbook or in the first lecture of PC101 and is then promptly (and wisely?) forgotten by generations of students thereafter? I think the moral is (as ever) Don't get TOO excited? :D Macavity

Umbrae	28 Dec 2003
Umbrae giggles… Quote: Originally posted by Kiama With Tarot there's the added bonus of tradition , history, other peoples' views, esoteric 'bonuses', spiritual structure, the knowledge of thousands of people all plugged into 78 images. … but when I want to find out where I am spiritually... I can't get that in toothpicks, nor raindrops. But Kiama…what about divination prior to tarot. Divination with Tarot only dates back a couple hundred years… What about the Native Americans who read bones and stones for thousands of years…or the Africans who read their 13 nuts from Eshu…what about… Tarot is about the structure and the form. Start taking that away and folks get squirrely. Remember back when folks were buying Soul Cards and then complaining cuz there was no LWB? “But how do I know what they mean? What if I’m wrong?” When you begin to look at how Tarot works, you are looking at how a structured system reacts when subjected to chaos (shuffling) and interpretation of the results. Umbrae giggles…

jmd	28 Dec 2003
...but again, Umbrae, your comment that 'when you begin to look at how Tarot works, you are looking at how a structured system reacts when subjected to chaos (shuffling) and interpretation of the results', this applies only to one of the many uses and purposes or functions of Tarot. If Tarot was solely a divinatory instrument, then I would agree... or at least, I agree with Umbrae with regards to its usage as a divinatory instrument. Tarot, however, has other effects on its user. To give an analogy, the Bible may be used solely as a bibliomantic tool - but its words will also begin to affect the user in various ways. And as the bibliomancer begins, and continues, to deepen his or her study into the tool, other awakenings result. This may also be the case for reading cloud patterns - but Tarot has its specific way of providing - of signposting a path - for transformations.

skytwig	28 Dec 2003
I will be so bold as to say that Chaos is not as random as you suppose, Umbrae..... Chaos is really a system that has not been figured out by the human mind! skytwig giggles...............

Moongold	28 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae But Kiama…what about divination prior to tarot. Divination with Tarot only dates back a couple hundred years… What about the Native Americans who read bones and stones for thousands of years…or the Africans who read their 13 nuts from Eshu…what about… [/b] And the Australian aboriginal with country There is an entirely unique cultural background, mythology and custom here which gives a context to this kind of reading that in the west we often don't have any idea about. I think this makes for a very different situation. And a person raised in their own unique culture has a psyche and consciousness and unconsdciousness fashioned by their upbringing. A lot of what they *see* might come from this internal consciousness and wisdom. In the West we have a very different upbringing and consciousness. I am not being categoric about this or saying that it can't be done. I am simply saying that these are ideas which are worth considering. Our capacity to divine almost certainly is influenced who we are and the things that fashion what we are and how we think - how we use the skills that we have. I think we are psychically connected to the collective unconsciousness of our particular culture too. I have lost track of what your main idea is ...........but if you are saying that we should trust ourselves, take risks, practice different ways of seeing .............that is fine ............there are many ways of doing this.and I agree with you absolutely. I still think that Tarot is the most perfect tool for us to use here though - for a person with my cultural background. With change, this may be different but it is so at the moment. These other strategies are good for creativity and different ways of thinking and one learns them in school and vocational training But also..............each to his own preference. Namaste ~ Moongold

WolfyJames	28 Dec 2003
It's exactly what I think, it has a structure, but we're not advanced enough to know. Just as I mentionned in my post about emptyness. We thought our body was full, and we discover that not only it's empty, but particles pass through us. We thought that emptyness, dark matter, was probably decorative, and now we know it's the structure that holds the universe together, the glue. Scientists don't know yet, what exactly is that dark matter, its unknown and strange, but one day they will know. Same thing with matter at subatomic level, right now it's wild and unpredictable, but with patience and perseverance they will find the laws the matter follows. The scientists used to view nature that way, until someone discovered that leaves and shapes in nature were mathematically perfect. Now, it is some sort of geometry in science. Chaos is not chaotic, it does has a structure and laws of its own, and the reason we don't know any of it is because we are still ignorant in this matter, like on many others. In a few decades, chaos will be described, known in every angles, its structure studied. Kids will be teached about chaos at school, along with biology and history. It's just a matter of time before we know everything about it.

jmd	28 Dec 2003
... will that mean that reading Tarot and toothpicks will also be taught ? :D:D:D

cricket	28 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Umbrae giggles… *cracks up laughing cause I just can't see it for some reason* OK, so, yeah... Chaos really does have an awful lot to do with tarot in all it's forms, IMO. Not everybody will relate to each card in the exact same way each time they meditate on it/read it/whatever. All the chaotic happenings in a person's life will have an effect on who and what that person sees each and every time another card is drawn for whatever purpose.

Alex	28 Dec 2003
I like the example my physics teacher used to give. From close, the passing of cars on the streets of a bit city seem caotic, but if you look at all the cars passing in all the big cities, at a given moment, you can devise a pattern... The pattern can't be seen from close, only from a distance, from another perspective, from "above"... Yet it seems to be always there. Alex. Quote: Originally posted by skytwig I will be so bold as to say that Chaos is not as random as you suppose, Umbrae..... Chaos is really a system that has not been figured out by the human mind! skytwig giggles...............

Moongold	29 Dec 2003
We are never going to agree on what CHAOS is are we? And does it really matter? If I am calm, where ever I am, then there is no chaos (for me anyway).

lark	29 Dec 2003
All this talk of chaos reminds me of the movie Jurassic Park. Chaos reigned untill the balance of nature was restored. Balance as the flip side of chaos? A part of the puzzle we might be missing. If we go to the cards out of balance in mind, body or spirit, maybe balance can only be restored through chaos.

Alex	29 Dec 2003
there's a A Brief Introduction to Chaos Theory at: http://www.imho.com/grae/chaos/chaos.html Alex Retired student

jmd	29 Dec 2003
Maybe my interest in things more mythical and traditional mean that I read certain posts in particular ways. Until more recent posts, and despite my interest in contemporary mathematics, I had understood Umbrae's usage of the word 'Chaos' in its more ancient Greek progenetor of its pantheon. There, to go to that space - that vast gapeing void - from which the reading, as did the God/desses, emanantes, is certainly learning to trust not only the process, but preparing oneself internally for the dangers which lay traps to one's psychological makeup - in more ancient parlance, seeks to devour the Soul. Some may be naturally gifted and have the inner resources to ride such wave. For others, playing in the ripples and seeing what others before them have done in interpreting them may be more than sufficient. This is quite different to considering Chaos as wonderful mathematical problems and manifested equations...

Diana	29 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by jmd Maybe my interest in things more mythical and traditional mean that I read certain posts in particular ways. Until more recent posts, and despite my interest in contemporary mathematics, I had understood Umbrae's usage of the word ' Chaos ' in its more ancient Greek progenetor of its pantheon. Which shows once again that it is can be most useful to define what exactly we are talking about when we use words..... such as Chaos, or, to take an example randomly out of a hat.... Tarot.

jmd	29 Dec 2003
...Wow... See how Chaos works? Randomly out of a hat, you withdraw 'Tarot'!!! :):):)

Alissa	29 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by WolfyJames In a few decades, chaos will be described, known in every angles, its structure studied. ... It's just a matter of time before we know everything about it. ... I hope not. My own opinion is ... no it won't. Besides, if our reach doesn't always exceed our grasp, then what's left for us to wonder? To reach for? To aspire to? I'm happy to leave Chaos a Mystery where I think it belongs.

Umbrae	29 Dec 2003
Thank heavens this is not school. Some folks would get a failing grade in reading comprehension. Quote: Originally posted by jmd Maybe my interest in things more mythical and traditional mean that I read certain posts in particular ways. Until more recent posts, and despite my interest in contemporary mathematics, I had understood Umbrae's usage of the word ' Chaos ' in its more ancient Greek progenetor of its pantheon. JMD receives a passing grade…this is a thread about divination. This is a thread about structured divination systems versus non-structured divination systems. It’s about our behaviour and willingness to utilize a non-structured divination system, and two – our willingness to speak aloud our findings, risking our very precious egos in the process of doing so. Quote: Originally posted by jmd This is quite different to considering Chaos as wonderful mathematical problems and manifested equations... JMD gets more than a passing grade. The introduction of physics is and was a metaphor. Now if you go back through the thread and read each post carefully, you will notice that there are those who chose not to see the metaphor and introduce chaos into the thread by veering it away from it’s thesis points. This I find hilarious. So anxious to be correct, they prove themselves wrong. Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae It’s the western tradition…here are the directions, follow them well, and make no mistakes…. What – you’re afraid you may be wrong? By golly you might be. You may also be correct. There is a point in randomness where patterns can be discerned, a point at which statistics go beyond mean-variance and standard deviations. Where chaos breaks down. This is a point that some call magic, others – God. We ain’t talkin’ string theory here… ROFL

rota	29 Dec 2003
I'm probably checking into this thread a bit late, but I thought I'd mention a bunch of people I met a few years back who referred to their group as Discordians. They said they 'worshipped' Chaos, under the name of Eris, the Greek goddess of Discord. They were a loose group, as you'd expect, and were constantly going on about the benefits of anarchy. Well, I lost track of them in time, and perhaps that's just as well, but I kept thinking about the notion of Chaos. Most of us think of chaos in terms of instability and lack of order, as in "my life is in chaos; please help me!". But the more I think about it, I think the word Chaos really refers to the Unmanifest. There's the universe around us everywhere, lots of things to see and be, and that's the Manifest, the 'Ten Thousand Things' of the Chinese. It's infinite, but there is also the Unmanifest. The Unmanifest is the universal substrate, the thing from which everything that is Manifest comes. The word refers to the things that can be, the things that exist when you call them into being. I think that's how Umbrae and jmd are using the word Chaos.

Moongold	29 Dec 2003
Umbrae, I think what has thrown me in your commencing post was the reference to chaos. It is such a loaded term for me that I could not see beyond it. This has bothered me a great deal because I have felt that you have an important message but I just couldn't get it and I know that I am not stupid. I understand now that you are merely coming from one particular angle and it won't suit everyone, which is all right. There are other ways of looking at this, and I found one today in Daniel d’Quincy’s One Hand Clapping: the Tao of Music. This book is about creativity and sensitivity. He speaks about the Ego and the Self. The Ego defines us in opposition to our surroundings while the Self incorporates the totality of things. The Ego judges, divides and repels while the Self looks at everything with recognition and acceptance. The Ego requires form and structure while the Self simply flows. MeeWah often mentions the Self, and I think I understand now exactly what she is talking about - looking at everything with love, recognition and acceptance. There is an immense amount in this book but it begins with the awareness of Self through meditation and other spiritual practices, including absolute respect for the body. The body is our Chariot through life. People speak about the form and beauty in nature but nature is at the same time constantly renewing itself. I prefer to see it as renewal rather than chaos. The Self, again, accepts and loves this in totality, as I as Self accepts and loves who and what I am in totality – or would if I was a more advanced soul :D. D’Quincy goes on to speak about to describe the Artist as Ego and the Artist as Self. In the folllowing paragraph the Ego deliberates with intention and the Self cogitates and moves the brush without intention. He who deliberates and moves the brush intent upon making a picture, misses to a still greater extent the art of painting, while he who cogitates and moves the brush without such intentions, reaches the art of painting. His hands will not get stiff; his heart will not grow cold; without knowing how, he accomplishes it. This statement seem to me to come most close to what you are saying but arrives there by a completely different route. I understand this alternate route. I think the same principles apply to Tarot reading, and any kind of reading. Also, chaos, whatever it is may be just one part of the whole picture. To get to the stage of reading puddles and raindrops, perhaps certain things need to come first in unenlightened souls. I think these things are awareness and acceptance of Self through meditation and what ever other means works for the individual. I mean this somewhat in the sense described earlier - others might call it something else - individuation, acceptance - whatever. I have a sense that you are aware of these things and if so, why not incorporate them in your comments for those of us who are still quite a way from being enlightened? Moongold

Umbrae	29 Dec 2003
Ahh Moongold – you begin to see… Quote: Originally posted by Moongold …He speaks about the Ego and the Self. The Ego defines us in opposition to our surroundings while the Self incorporates the totality of things. The Ego judges, divides and repels while the Self looks at everything with recognition and acceptance. The Ego requires form and structure while the Self simply flows. MeeWah often mentions the Self, and I think I understand now exactly what she is talking about - looking at everything with love, recognition and acceptance… In d’Quincy’s milieu as it meets mine; Ego = The Magician Self = The HP The Magician seeks order, the HP ‘lets it be’ and simply allows. Non-structure for most Magician guided souls is chaos. Quote: Originally posted by Moongold …I have a sense that you are aware of these things and if so, why not incorporate them in your comments for those of us who are still quite a way from being enlightened? Because the person who is not ready, will not see. Often I have introduced and incorporated the concept – and am usually met with contempt from the Magician guided intellects. They fight the very concept…but you are beginning to see… Umbrae chuckles…

Moongold	29 Dec 2003
Umbrae ~ I think there are different routes to Source - or whatever -different understanding and ways to see and read. For me, there is a different understanding of chaos. Notice how almost everyone has picked up on chaos, whereas now I think it is just a small part of the picture. Also, you clearly have vision and so much experience. It would be good if you could be more comprehensive in your explanations......include a few more steps, whatever. There would be less angst perhaps :). Many blessings and thanks ~ Moongold

Umbrae	30 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold It would be good if you could be more comprehensive in your explanations...include a few more steps, whatever. There would be less angst perhaps. Too much explanation creates too much structure. Each must travel their own path. ...NOT follow in MY footsteps. I have always said that my path is not for everybody. I offer my ruminations so that one may take what they need, or take what they want; and leave the rest for others who may desire to speculate…. Supply a few more steps? Some things cannot be talked about. But may be experienced. Sometimes one must decide to do an ‘eight of chalices’ to their Magician guided world, and simply accept, and not think the world to death. Angst: a feeling of anxiety, apprehension, or insecurity. Why should my musings create such a feeling? Do my words cause the ground to become insubstantial? Does the sun cease to move in the heavens? Do my writings fill the heart with darkness? Or does one’s sense of order become clouded? I began this thread with the statement, “So many posts are about structure, procedure, and style.” That causes anxiety? My offerings cause trepidation? I find that a very sad thought…

Moongold	30 Dec 2003
Quote: originally posted by Umbrae Angst: a feeling of anxiety, apprehension, or insecurity. Why should my musings create such a feeling? Do my words cause the ground to become insubstantial? Does the sun cease to move in the heavens? Do my writings fill the heart with darkness? Or does one’s sense of order become clouded? Speaking for myself only, I seek to discover my own path, and I am. There are a number of layers to the lotus and yours is one, but one which I value. There are others here also – MeeWah and Marion for example – whom I also deeply value for their insights and example, and others too. For whatever reason, and this is simply my opinion, it sometimes sounds as if you speak from the mountain top but I would prefer to be walking alongside you with others. I would hear you more clearly then and the sun would not get in my eyes. For what it is worth, this is generally an Australian preference. And sometimes you sound a little impatient with those who do not or cannot see the same things. However, that may simply say something about me, and others may not experience the same thing. On another level. I was certainly lost as to what you meant be chaos. And I think for some new to the path, it does not hurt to have some context about the spiritual work that underlies reading or divining. Ah………I don’t wish to start another debate….. Maybe they don’t need that. There are so many threads at Aeclectic. Sometimes they seem like ticker tape and only confuse until one learns to pick one's way though them. And this is only my opinion, conveyed with respect. No need for you to feel sad. I do not and don't wish that for you either. I learned a great deal today, because of the challenge you provided, and I thank you for that. You give a great deal. Moongold

Kiama	30 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Umbrae giggles… But Kiama…what about divination prior to tarot. Divination with Tarot only dates back a couple hundred years… What about the Native Americans who read bones and stones for thousands of years…or the Africans who read their 13 nuts from Eshu…what about… What kind of esoteric, spiritual knowledge was plugged into the 13 Nust that somebody like me could access easily and in a comprehensible way? In Kazakhstan they divine with sheep droppings... But where is the depth? Me, when I divine, I don't just want answers to my questions. I want depth. (For want of a better word.) The 'choatic divination' you speak of does not give that to me. Also, it is interesting to hear your takes on the Magician and Hierophant: I see them the other way round to you - to me, the HP represents tradition and structure, whilst the Magician is simply the Chaos beginning to form into something useable. (Like the Tarot.) I also don't think you should be placing one as better than the other: the Magician mind, and the Hierophant mind, both have their places, their value and uses. And I find it sad that you laugh at those who don't see the same way as you. Maybe if you spoke a little clearer (yes, I Know, explanation is structure, but hey: it means people understand you better!) and used less metaphors, more of us would see what you're trying to say? Kiama

skytwig	30 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Too much explanation creates too much structure. Each must travel their own path. ...NOT follow in MY footsteps. I have always said that my path is not for everybody. I offer my ruminations so that one may take what they need, or take what they want; and leave the rest for others who may desire to speculate…. Supply a few more steps? Some things cannot be talked about. But may be experienced. "Too much explaination" means too much visibility..... if we explain clearly then others will see who we really are and what we really believe..... To be vague is to create mystery.... and separation.

Umbrae	30 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama Also, it is interesting to hear your takes on the Magician and Hierophant: I see them the other way round to you - to me, the HP represents tradition and structure, whilst the Magician is simply the Chaos beginning to form into something useable . (Like the Tarot.) Sorry, HP = High Priestess not Hierophant. Quote: Originally posted by Kiama And I find it sad that you laugh at those who don't see the same way as you. NEVER did I or have I laughed at others who don’t see the same. To accuse such is out of line. Just plain wrong. I am appalled that as well as we know each other that you could accuse me of such, strike out so. Quote: Originally posted by skytwig To be vague is to create mystery.... and separation. So what do we do Skytwig? Take one thread and attack the poster? After over 2,500 posts you think I am vague? If you must attack the poster… I am sorry I began this thread. I am sorry I read for others. Why must you be mean…? What is the point? Why destroy a thread and blame me? What is up with you people? Form and structure…that is what is wrong.

skytwig	30 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae So what do we do Skytwig? .... Why must you be mean…? I'm sorry that I sounded mean to you, Umbrae. I was pointing out the importance of communication... being clear... explaining as much as is needed..... Dialogue is dynamic stuff that can enable any of us to see more clearly or even change our minds.... We grow through discourse with each other. To stay stuck in an opinion is very limiting, confining. To believe that we know better than others is, quite simply, isolating. If that is what we want to do, then there is no problem..... but there is no dialogue either..... Dialogue, for me, is not fencing..... it is sharing. :)

Alissa	30 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Diana What do people want? A six-step programme? "How to...... in six easy steps." How to Capture Chaos and Use for Your Personal Advantage. Course packet includes a wave and light particle, Heidegger's cat in a box, and your very own Tarot deck for personal practice. Course lectures will cover : ~ How to Define Chaos ~ How to Contain Chaos ~ How to Utilize Chaos, and ~ How to Divine with Chaos Please send your check or money order to me. I'll send you the syullabus ... or maybe I won't. That's chaos for ya.

Kiama	30 Dec 2003
Umbrae, nobody's trying to destroy your thread or attack you. I don't see where you got that idea from. We're just asking questions, and discussing this idea in a way we can understand. Skytwig expressed her opinion that she would like you to explain further instead of not doing so. In fact, I'd like you to explain further, because I'm not as clever as many of the other posters here: I'm not too familiar with the concept of Chaos, nor with what you are trying to express. So, for me, the metaphors you use are pretty, but I don't always understand them. Further explanation is all Skytwig asked for. There is no destruction in that idea, surely? And the thing about you laughing... I think I counted 3 times in this thread where you 'giggle' or 'chuckle' at what seems like others' ideas and how they do not understand what you're saying, or how others do not 'see'. (The post to Moongold for instance.) At one point you even say that if this were a reading comprehension exam, many of the posters would get a failing grade. To me, that's quite patronizing and upsetting, and forgive me for those feelings but they're there. Anyway, this is my last post in this thread since obviously I am not meant to be taking part in it. I can't understand it, and when I say so you think I'm being mean. Ah well, my loss I guess. Kiama

miss_apples	30 Dec 2003
Im gonna try and say this in the nicest way possible. Umbre, i think this post is very interesting and the way you do readings is very clever and amazing. However I must agree with Kiama when she says it seems like you laugh a bit at others way of doing things and even preach a little bit how things should be done. And I dont see whats wrong with a little bit of structure, some people prefer form and structure and some people prefer chaos....just as some people prefer apples and some people prefer oranges. I dont think either way is right or wrong. Its all personal preference.

Umbrae	30 Dec 2003
I have not laughed AT people. I have laughed at attempts to redefine the thread. I have never said that structure and form were not good – or bad. I have attempted to explain that there are OTHER approaches. As I have said before – if you meet me in person, you will find that I often express my ideas by telling stories – and use metaphors. Now…this thread has moved. It is no longer following the thesis statement. I am no longer discussing my concepts. I am defending me…this ain’t right folks. As I said, once again – I am sorry to have posted this at all.

miss_apples	30 Dec 2003
Awww...dont be sorry for making the post...it was wonderful. But you know that when you post an alternative idea like this, people are going to ask a lot of questions and challenge your belief, and its all a part of learning. You cant learn about something until you challenge it.

Nevada	30 Dec 2003
I didn't get the impression that Umbrae was laughing AT anyone. Not at all. If he finds delight in the process by which we examine another's ideas, how is that laughing at individuals? I too delight in observing how people (including myself) learn and examine everything new that we encounter. It's a process, a very human one, but also quite natural. Even the hostile approach is natural, to a degree. Everytime I bring something new into my house, my dog and cat, by turns, look it over with suspicion at first, and then, as they grow accustomed, sometimes with actual affection. This is how children learn, it's how adults learn. Let's not make this personal, please. I'm getting so much out of this thread, out of turning over Umbrae's ideas and examining them from each of our perspectives, reading others' opinions. I hate to see it breakdown into a fight. Nevada

firemaiden	30 Dec 2003
Okay, everbody, STOOOOOOOOOP. Hold the phone! Now listen!!!! Listen all of you!!! Are some people uncomfortable with Umbrae's first post? Good! you should be! It is full of ideas that explode the whole mythos of tarot. It is heretical and revolutionary. It is not supposed to be comforting. Umbrae is challenging all of our long-held beliefs and assumptions about tarot, in fact, he is tearing down the entire house of cards. Is it upsetting? You bet it is! But is also very exciting. My suggestion: everyone, take a deep deep breath. Clear the slate of the mind. Erase the blackboard. Calm the space. Allow the space for new thoughts and ideas to come in. Now... Go back and read the first post. I think you will find, as Diana said, it is all crystal clear. It doesn't need any further questioning or even comments. It is a gift to us. Offered in the spirit of sharing something amazing. Amazing new things need to be handled like newborn butterflies. Don't tear it apart. Just look at it. Admire its wings. Let it fly off. Wonder.

HudsonGray	30 Dec 2003
I agree, sometimes we all start thinking too much 'inside the box' and have to be reminded forceably that the box is ONLY there because we put it there. Most of the world is outside the box, which is a pretty heady concept.

jmd	30 Dec 2003
In Umbrae's first post, mention is made that he 'attempted to stay away from form, or structure'... Yet it is from this apparent chaotic randomness that structure did emerge in the readings. It is from either the toothpicks in their - at first - meaningless jumble, or the raindrops upon the windscreen, or the oil floating upon the surface of water, that what was at first incoherent somehow became, through the dissolution of the self into the spaces provided, coagulated into structured forms... the thread on 'Blank cards' also touches on this. There is a particular spread I mentioned many moons ago, and which I use to use a lot more than I do these days - I also make a passing reference to it in the thread 'Last Card'. The spread - mentioned here - is one in which the cards are simply flicked into the air and land in any pattern, face up or down, on a largish table. The number of cards is indeterminate - though of course restricted to a maximun of 78 (unless one uses more than one deck) - and the patterns made become as important in the reading as any of the cards which are face up... In reading, and though I agree that one best not focus on the structure, it may be the case that through studying the structure deeply, one is able to transcend it. In the thread titled 'Too much information for Tarot' I gave the example of an engineer which, though much study and effort has gone into the learning phase, is able to later effortlessly seem to 'enter' the space where the engine may 'speak' to him or her and reveal what needs attention. There certainly is a sense in which many may be too fixated on the specified (by whomever) meanings of individual cards. Maybe it is, too, that the Western method, or investigating structure in ever more minute details, needs to also be balanced by, for example, the Japanese art of casting a pot or a vase - in which the same design is cast again and again - not until it is mastered, but until it is transcended. This reminds me also of an Englishman (but whose name I again forget), responding to the travel experiences of another, who said that he would prefer to see one place with a thousand eyes, than a thousand places with one eye... To enter that one place, and open oneself to it in its thousand manifolded aspects, undoubtedly unveils more than travelling the pages of a thousand books, reading without deeper reflection as to why or how it may - and only may - be so...

Alex	01 Jan 2004
I really don't see any reason for so much fuss about the original thread, neitheir any of the replies that followed. I tend to believe that, when someone advances an argument, that person should be willing to expain it further, try to make himself understood. Conversely, if it's not the person's interest to make himself understood, then the others have the choice to go post in other threads. Insisting with someone that they "should" explain things better when they don't think so is pure waste of time. Alex.

Moongold	02 Jan 2004
.......last post in memory of my lost post :) There was a post in this thread which was deleted by Diana. in her role as Moderator. it was a peaceful post and indicated some resolution of the difficulties experienced in the thread. Umbrae himself was happy with this post and Pm'd me to thank me for it. I don't believe the deletion was warranted. It is how we argue and sort things out that counts...I hope. Peace to all.... Moongold

Star Spirit	04 Jan 2004
Alright. I read Umbrae's post. It was brilliant. Then I jumped to the last page, because I can't be expected to read through 7 pages. I was disappointed to see that some people were upset by this somehow...he was only being profound. I've been gone a while, I'm glad I finally sat down and read this because it's intriguing, and it was really neat to see how everyone got their reading. But I'm curious Umbrae about my reading. So I'm going to ask you about that.

The Surfing on the Wave of Chaos thread was originally posted on 21 Dec 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.