Tarot: Objective Truth or Subjective Truth?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 27 Dec 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Lee	27 Dec 2003
After several recent discussions on this forum, I thought it would be interesting to conduct a poll. I'm not trying to advocate a particular point of view here, I'd just like to see what the numbers are. -- Lee

Moonbow*	27 Dec 2003
Ooohhhh! :confused: Why am I always so undecided, so 'on the fence'? I think Tarot lends itself to both!!! On one hand I say there is a structure to tarot and one deck can teach a person what they need to know (who actually needs more than one deck?) Then again........ many decks = many interpretations and views. To me tarot is very much about using your own mind. I see the cards as a way of opening up parts of the brain that in todays society we don't use very much i.e immagination, sensitivity so I suppose I'm going more towards the subjectivity side. I've always thought that pictures are there to invoke a response, so different picture - different response. Does this make sense? Moonbow* :)

Kiama	27 Dec 2003
I voted for 'Other', so I'll explain... I tend towards 'Subjective', but at the same time do not think that each card can mean absolutely anything. I also do not think there is only one meaning for each card that everybody must stick to. Instead, I see a mixture of the two... I think that there is a general objective meaning for each card, but there is also subjective aspects of that meaning... An example is the Hierophant. Objectively, it has something to do with organized religion or a teacher or authority figure. Subjectively, different people view this concept in different ways, so whilst one person may see this card as representing rigidity aswell, another person may see it as representing guidance. The same with the Empress: different people tend towards different aspects of the card. Some tend towards it as a woman in power, others as a representation of the Mother Goddess, others as creativity and birth, others as.... bla bla bla. (So many aspects to this card!) Also, I think that the aspect one looks at depends upon where the card is in the spread, what the question is, who the querent is, and where they are in life. So, that's my explanation of my vote for 'Other' Kiama

Majecot	27 Dec 2003
I voted Other also. (non-conformist ;)) I think that each card has its basic meaning that is universal, and it also has an intuitive meaning that is built upon that basic meaning. I agree with Kiama in that it is a blend of objective and subjective. Each author has created his/her deck based on their own feelings and interpretions of each card and what those cards mean to him/her, therefore bring an fresh perspective to an older meaning. WE in turn add our own personal meanings to those cards. So therefore.. I am an other :)

Lee	27 Dec 2003
Just to clarify, in my opinion, you can still vote for "subjective truth" even if your interpretations of the cards include elements from what might be considered traditional interpretations (actually, traditional interpretations themselves have changed over the centuries). I think there are some constants which hold true for everybody simply by virtue of the fact that there are pictures on the cards which figure into our interpretations. For example, I think most of us would not interpret the Empress as a masculine influence. What I had in mind by "subjective truth" was to distinguish it from what I call "objective truth." I would define "objective truth" as the belief that there is one and only one deck, one and only one set of interpretations, one and only one approach, one and only one legitimate use of Tarot (although some, like Waite, will grudgingly allow the use of the cards for divination as a lower use). I would liken such beliefs to beliefs in religions which proclaim their own truth and at the same time proclaim the falseness of all other religions. By "subjective truth," I refer to the belief that many of our interpretations will obviously be similar because we're looking at cards with more or less similar pictures on them (depending on the deck), but our own viewpoint, education, and experiences will be the ultimate arbiter of how we see the cards, and we recognize that this will result in different truths for different people, as opposed to the "objective truth" approach where we do not acknowledge that any approach other than our own has validity. -- Lee

Alex	27 Dec 2003
With all respect I must say that these are very peculiar definitions of "objective truth" and "subjective truth". Alex. Quote: Originally posted by Lee What I had in mind by "subjective truth" was to distinguish it from what I call "objective truth." I would define "objective truth" as the belief that there is one and only one deck, one and only one set of interpretations, one and only one approach, one and only one legitimate use of Tarot (although some, like Waite, will grudgingly allow the use of the cards for divination as a lower use). I would liken such beliefs to beliefs in religions which proclaim their own truth and at the same time proclaim the falseness of all other religions. By "subjective truth," I refer to the belief that many of our interpretations will obviously be similar because we're looking at cards with more or less similar pictures on them (depending on the deck), but our own viewpoint, education, and experiences will be the ultimate arbiter of how we see the cards, and we recognize that this will result in different truths for different people, as opposed to the "objective truth" approach where we do not acknowledge that any approach other than our own has validity. -- Lee

Lee	27 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Alex With all respect I must say that these are very peculiar definitions of "objective truth" and "subjective truth". Alex. Sorry, Alex, I'm trying my best! :) My apologies if I'm not clear. If anyone has any difficulties in understanding what I'm trying (and obviously failing) to say, please let me know where the problem is and I'll try to make it clear. I'm not particularly experienced in philosophical debate so I'm afraid I'll have to ask for everyone's forebearance. What I'm really trying to get at here is this: what is your attitude towards others' viewpoints? Do you consider your truth regarding Tarot to be the only truth, and if anyone believes anything different, they're wrong? If so, the first option would be the one to vote for. Do you acknowledge the possibility that others might have their own truths which may be different from yours, and theirs may be just as true for them as yours is for you? If so, the second option would be the one to vote for. -- Lee

jmd	27 Dec 2003
Lee, whether you consider yourself experienced or not in philosophical debate, your posts are always interesting and stimulating... I personally hadn't yet responded because my sense of what constitutes 'objective' and 'subjective' assessment of the situation is, I suspect, quite different to most... But I get and understood (I think) the drift of your dichotomy: whether one considers that there is a 'true' deck and very clear ways by which to interpret it; or whether there are various decks and various possibilities in their interpretation. Part of the problem, for me, is that I am probably far narrower than many in what I may allow as a deck which I would call properly Tarot - but am also, at the same time, totally open as to how a card or particular spread in particular situations may open the floodgates of divination - in ways which may have nothing to do with how one may discuss that particular card (I gave an example, some time back, of once seeing the four of Coins as a four-doored sedan). As to whether I would 'classify' either of these views as 'objective' or as 'subjective' would depend on yet other factors - ones which have to do with how knowledge is acquired (the semiosis of the situation). I therefore chose 'other'... though I do tend to view that a combination of objective and subjective elements often play in. For me, if the reading enters that space where one sees into the situation at hand, properly putting aside one's personal emotive and other hindrances to the reading, than an 'objective' reading has been attained. If, on the other hand, it reflects one's psychological states, dispositions, bias, and peculiar world-view, than the subjective element has (also) penetrated the reading. This is quite different to investigating Tarot, and discriminating amongst various offerings...

Moonbow*	28 Dec 2003
Lee We must be on the same wave length, I get what you mean. Moonbow*

MattDouglas	28 Dec 2003
If the poll were a forced response with only the top two answers, I'd go the for "subjective" one. I voted for "other" due to the phrasing of the choices which I didn't like. I don't like the term "believe" in the choices. I use tarot. I study tarot. I try to gain more knowledge of tarot. I've learned much from studying and using tarot. I don't waste my energy believing or disbelieving in the use of tarot or a particular approach to it. That to me would be like having to decide whether or not I believed in a hammer before pounding a nail into a board. I'm not saying that I don't have beliefs. But they are not what is important to me. Understanding is important, and trying to understand things better; in other words, I try to keep learning. Beliefs are a function of understanding, not vice versa. If I continue to further my understanding my beliefs will naturally change with it. If I were to try to make my understanding fit my beliefs I'd be living my whole life as the Two of Swords or would be setting myself up for some vicious Tower experiences. While we may all have different beliefs about the interpretation of these two cards I've just mentioned, I think y'all understand fairly well what I mean. From my experiences reading I've come to understand that what I believe about an interpretation of a card is not nearly as important when reading as trying to understand, listen to, and establish rapport with the querent. I guess I find the word "believe" way to rigid. "Believing" seems to best apply to Lee's definiton of obbjective truth and thus skews the poll a bit. When I tell people I read tarot, I get sick of hearing them say, "So, do you really belive in it?" I hope one day someone will ask the question, "Really, what have you learned from it?" As a Lunar Piscean I think the I-phrase for Pisces would be more representative of the sign if it was changed from "I believe" to "I wonder" or "I imagine." This idea is, of course, my imagination at work. Lee, did it occur to you that perhaps seeing religion as a belief is a limited definition of religion? After all, "religion" does mean 'to re-connect', and such reconnection to Divinity and to each other is pretty difficult is we're stuck in our beliefs. Perhaps those of you reading this now understand me a little better. I hope I can understanding those of you at Aeclectic a little better each time I read your posts. Love, UNDERSTANDING, and compassion, Matt

Lee	28 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by MattDouglas Lee, did it occur to you that perhaps seeing religion as a belief is a limited definition of religion? Hi Matt, I'm sorry to say it did not occur to me. What did occur to me as I wrote the poll was that it would in a sense be impossible to answer, because, as you and jmd have shown in your excellent posts, I have used terms which could be defined and debated endlessly. Of necessity I had to use these terms in a very simplistic, black-and-white manner which doesn't reflect reality. I had to do this because it was unfortunately impossible for me to foresee and take into account every single opinion anyone would have about these terms, and also because there is only a small amount of space in which to state the poll questions. I certainly didn't mean to make the kind of specific philosophical statement that you mention, and I'm sorry if you took it that way. -- Lee

Alex	29 Dec 2003
I voted for "b"_subjective truth.

Alex	29 Dec 2003
I voted for "b": subjective truth. Lee, everything can become an endless discussion. What is objectivity, what is truth, what is belief etc. It's a trick I used in school, when we had to discuss papers I hadn't had the time to read, to pick on syntax. "What is science?" "What is a species?" "What is method?" etc. Always worked. My bests Alex.

Amond2000	29 Dec 2003
i think that tarot is a tool,only,,,,

MattDouglas	29 Dec 2003
Alex, I feel that such discussion can serve a purpose. When it's done to prove that you're definitions are right, or when it's done to avoid stating what you really think and feel (or have a lack thereof), than such semantic discussions are not only useless, but sometimes destructive. However when such discussions are conducted in the spirit of understanding each other than I feel they have many positive effects from directly experiencing better understanding to indirectly using such understanding to help, assist, and appreciate each other. I can't contribute to a group (even a group of two) if i disagree with what is said or even how it's said if I withhhold what I am thinking and feeling. Only by honestly saying where I'm coming from, however ludicrous it may appear to others, can I start to detach from false preconceptions and thereby understand, be in rapport, and work with others. Love, understanding (I'm trying for it anyway), and compassion, Matt

jog1118	29 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama Instead, I see a mixture of the two... I think that there is a general objective meaning for each card, but there is also subjective aspects of that meaning... i agree with kiama... :smoker:

Jimilyn	31 Dec 2003
I also agree with what Kiama said. I feel that there's a general objective meaning for the cards, yet it is also open to subjective interpretation based on the experience, study, etc. of the reader and the situation of the querent. I do not feel that there is one true deck...it may have a certain structure, but there's more than one deck of cards that fits the structure. I certainly do not feel that my way of reading and interpreting is the only way. :eek: So I voted "subjective". :) Jimilyn

Lee	02 Jan 2004
I want to thank everyone who participated in this poll (and who will in the future, of course). The poll results and the comments are fascinating. I realize the poll was constructed in such a way that it made it difficult to answer, which is why I appreciate the responses even more. -- Lee :)

WolfSpirit	03 Jan 2004
I voted subjective... Although there is an objective meaning to the archetypes the meanings are very broad, and every time you use tarot you will use your subjectivity to define the truth for that particular case.

The Tarot: Objective Truth or Subjective Truth? thread was originally posted on 27 Dec 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.