The "Duh?" card

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 09 Dec 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Keslynn	09 Dec 2003
I have noticed that I have a problem with one of the majors - Justice. Anytime I'm looking through a new deck, one with different subtitles for the majors, I always forget what that number associates with in standard RWS decks. The other ones are so much easier. I can instantly correlate 6 with the Lovers, etc. But good old number 11 stumps me every time. I always have to pull out a book to figure it out. Of course, this doesn't really apply with decks labelled in the standard fashion, but even then, Justice never really seems to stick out the way other majors do. Does anyone else have this phenomenon regarding a particular card? What do you think it means (if anything)?

firemaiden	09 Dec 2003
Try associating it with the number 8 instead. How does that feel, better? (It should).

lark	09 Dec 2003
hi Keslynn, The way I remember Justice is the two pillars look like the number 11. I keep wanting to make the Devil 13 instead of 15. But then Death seems like 13 is right for it too. So I get those two mixed up. I end up with two 13's and forget 15.

Star Spirit	09 Dec 2003
I think everyone has "duh" moments with tarot at some point ;) It usually passes with time.

Diana	10 Dec 2003
Try using a deck that has Justice as 8 and Strength as 11. Numerologically, this makes sense, whereas making Justice 11 is some kind of Golden Dawn-Arthur Waite astrological fantasy. Maybe your subconscious doesn't like having Justice as 11.

Star Spirit	10 Dec 2003
Diana- I have heard others mention that 8 is sometimes Justice and 11 Strength, personally I feel more comfortable with it the other way around and have never used them this way (I do only have one deck after all :)). But I would like to know, why do you say it is numerologically correct to have Justice #8 and Strength #11?

lunalafey	10 Dec 2003
I used to have a hard time with XIV & XII .........quite the appropriate combination to reverse & mix up eh?

jmd	10 Dec 2003
Even in the SRIA, from which the GD derives, it is recognised that there is a long tradition which links Justice with the number eight (the SRIA does not use the Tarot, by the way). It is claimed that this dates back to concept of Justice and numerological considerations which date to ancient Greece, though I have not been able to substantiate this claim unequivocally. Personally, it seems that Justice at eight and Strength at eleven make more sense - unless one wants to adopt the GD variant and its astrologically imposed correlations. Irrespective of this, it does seem that for many of us there are, or have been times that card numbers seem disconnected from their image... Dead Star mentions, this usually passes with time - hopefully not to return :)

Inana	10 Dec 2003
I also prefer Justice as 8. But i use RWS type decks anyway. Then I try to connect meanings of Justice and Strenght a bit, so it makes more sense to me. One needs inner strenght both to accept Justice and make good choices, cause usually when Justice appears is not an easy moment to face. And if you are going to follow a path til the end using your courage, better you first can assure is the right one or you can end in the Devil. Keslynn, if the confusion or "duh" moment comes because of the number, read it as if it was an eight. Otherwise, we have had some threads about this card before i think. Maybe its time to bring them back... For the "duh" cards... i have lot of those: Judgement and Chariot nowadays, and better i dont start with minors. It depends on the context tough.

Myrrha	10 Dec 2003
Hi Dead Star, if you lay out the first ten Major Arcana beginning with the Magician and then the next ten right under them you might see some interesting relationships between the top and bottom rows. Having Strength as the first one in the second row, as a kind of higher version of the Magician, makes sense to me. It was this that convinced me that Strength should be number 11. --Myrrha

The The "Duh?" card thread was originally posted on 09 Dec 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.