To much information for tarot.

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 05 Dec 2003, and now archived in the Forum Library.

RedWood	05 Dec 2003
I am not one to study tarot nor do readings for a lot of people. Nor is tarot my main passion. Just some thoughts on my part. I read the boards (not all of them) I see people who study this about tarot and that. (astrology,quabalah etc) I am just wondering how much is to much? Is there ever to much? When i read tarot. i look at the pictures. I mainly do not pay attention to what number they are. What elements are involved, or even if it is the 3 of swords or the 10 of cups. i guess my thinking is. Is there a point where you have so much information about the tarot that you can not read them intuitively? Is there a point where you say thats enough. Stick a fork in me I am DONE!! Get rid of all the books (per Umbrae etc.) Just go it alone. You and the deck.

HOLMES	05 Dec 2003
i honestly don't know , :O) but i like to think after everyone studies to their limite they can then take their knowledge and go free flow without a book by their side, full of basis to base their inuition on. edited to add. i honestly don't know how much is too much , example is i don't think the tarot is based on numerology but the number extensions i have written about have worked so well for me. then there is the astrology aspects which has to be studied if it is going to be used with the tarot , if not why use it ? and the same i feel goes with the qabbalah . yet with that being said.. there is some who feel they have enough , and don't need to know why the symbols are what they are . i was one of those people. now i feel differnt for it gives me something deeper and very often it is valid to the reading so much i am amazed. yet of course there is a point. one can only apply astrology , qabbalah so much (in fact i think the qabbalah aspects have been mapped out so much for the source tarot decks that consit of the toth, rider, and gd variants that when something new comes that uses a differnt system it is frowned upon. example would be the merlin tarot which not only changes the postion of the major on the tree itself but also the numerolgoical order of the major arcana) quote When i read tarot. i look at the pictures. I mainly do not pay attention to what number they are. What elements are involved, or even if it is the 3 of swords or the 10 of cups. quote yup, there is four kinds of readers described in mary k greer book, you would be the total inuitive reader from your quote. and it works well for you . for me i would need to know everything i can to make sure i can give the best information i can as a reader. and for your second last question. when my acquired tarot knowledge fails, when i can't put the system together in my mind, that is when i resort to the pictures i always do that when i get stuck. yet for me it brings up some book meaning, or key word and help me to relate it in a new way. more power to those who read inutively, for i think there should be a nice basis of all approaches for the tarot reader. book, studied (deeper aspects of book , more like well studied) systemic which is what i can consider myself to be, and as well inuitive. no one system is better then the other. but to the person who sticks to one way,, it might be limiting . as for umbrae, i think he has some knowledge of books . and knowledge of other symbols, other then notebooks after notebook of his own thoughts. umbrae , am i wrong ?

wynde	05 Dec 2003
can't the two approaches coexist? learning everything you can, filtering through bookish information but when it comes to a reading relying just as much on intuition and feeling as on all the prior studies. letting everything incorporate into the message that needs to be communicated. i feel like my readings wouldn't be complete without both angles.

Logiatrix	06 Dec 2003
I'm with Wynde--there should be both. I believe strongly in reading by intuition, but I think it's important to "go to school" first--or at least, at some point. I liken it to studying spelling, grammar, vocabulary, composition, technique, and the world's great writing masters and their works; certainly one becomes a better writer for the effort of such study. That's how I learned my cards, anyway... I needed to gather information about tarot first, such as the history, card meanings, technique and psychology, so I poured over books before I jumped in to deciphering the card images on my own. All that study helped me to understand how my intuition would work with the cards, and to have a stronger relationship with tarot as a whole. I especially found it helpful to learn basic card meanings first, so that I would not be distracted about "right" or "wrong" as I focused on the images. It has never felt like too much; only, perhaps, redundant and extraneous when the information was no longer necessary. For me, it was important to do the homework first, to graduate myself from the books, and then to fly freely on the wings of my intuition. :)

Le_Corsair	06 Dec 2003
The human mind varies too much from individual to individual, in intelligence level, curiosity level, and intuition level. While it is admirable to simply open a deck of tarot cards with no prior knowledge of them and do an accurate reading based completely on intuition, I think such individuals are the exception rather than the rule. Knowledge is a tool designed build the home for your intellect. Just as you don't build a house using only your bare hands and teeth, so also do you not build the palace of your thought with only your intuition. Mark Twain famously observed that a cat, having once sat on a hot stove, would never sit on a hot stove again, but neither would it sit on a cold stove. That is the limit of the cat's understanding. The knowledge other men have discovered is there for us to use so that our lives are spent on more important things. Trusting your intuition will work for you only until it doesn't work, and then what do you fall back on? In a place of great danger, the price of trusting your intuition may be higher than you are willing to pay. This seems like the old Dionysian/Apollonian argument restated. Bob :THERM edited to correct typo.

Umbrae	06 Dec 2003
Now this is my opinion, so don’t get excited. Way back before A.E. Waite was on the scene, the Magician meant something different…so did the Popess… I see them as a yin and yang sorta thing but not really. One is an attempt (trying) to balance and the other is allowing balance. Try or Allow. Where the Magician is active ego, the HP is more of a letting go. Left-brain, right-brain. Intellect – spiritual. Different approaches. Different goals. One approach attempts to find answers by data sifting. And since the spiritual answers cannot be answered by data, more data does not provide answers. More data provides a need for more data. The more detail you look at, the more you lose the picture… The HP, Popess, spiritual approach says, “to heck with the data…that’s not where the answers for me lie…since magic and the spirit is not something we can truly control, I’ll let it flow and be one with it. Anybody read Travels -- by Michael Crichton? Took him a while to figure it out. That success can come from not trying. Anybody remember Ravenswing Sweet n’ Low post? It’s not about books, or data, or information. But that’s the HP approach to this whole thing. And do I think enough is enough? It depends on your approach. If you are a data gatherer…go right ahead. I’m not. We can co-exist though. That said - I don't suggest using intuition when driving a car or investing in the stock market. There are times and events to use the intellect - and times and places to use the way of the spirit.

Simone	06 Dec 2003
In my experience, book knowledge sometimes interferes with my intuition and I become puzzled: I have this card which, by the books means this and this, but in relation to this person in front of me, my intuition tells me something completely different :confused: . In that case - what should I do? If I take book knowledge, it isn't right, if I take intuition info, it isn't completely right either because I'm at loss to express it with my books interfering... Then I feel my book is not complete and I have to study more, but is it so? Sometimes I think I should throw out all my books and go on intuition alone, but then intuition fails me too... Light and Love Simone

Astra	06 Dec 2003
Frankly, I threw the books away before I ever saw them. Over the years, I've learned quite a bit of Tarot lore, mostly by osmosis, and actually spent some time studying simply so that I'd know what "most people" (?) think the meanings should be. Talk about contradictions.... I'm currently doing a comparison of the 22 Major Arcana with "another occult or arcane system" for a certification requirement - using American Football (11 men on a side, no?) }) , which is definitely an arcane system - almost religious for some people. What wierds me out a bit is that if I do a really good job on it, somebody is going to quote it to me 10 years from now as fact....

Star Spirit	06 Dec 2003
I've never owned a tarot book. I may in the future, but so far I've learned only by what I've read online and taught myself. I should hope that I don't "allow" myself to go too far :)

WolfSpirit	06 Dec 2003
I guess it makes a difference how and why you study tarot. If you go through books collecting more and more card meanings, I think you would get confused. When I read tarot books - and I don't do that all the time, I also like to read many other things - it is not just card meanings, but I try to find the wisdom behind it, find out more about the history, read artists' views on why they made cards that way, etc. Some of this information will alter the way I see a card, but I think all life experience can do that in a way. I am not such a passionate tarot student like some members, who can't get enough of it ever, it is more of an interest that comes and goes but always comes back.

firemaiden	06 Dec 2003
Well, in my extremely unhumble opinion, which is mine, :D you can chuck the astrological associations with impunity. More seriously, it seems that if the reader has a rich experiential background, (as in, having attended the School of Life) that should be more than enough to draw from when, as Redwood says, it is just you and the cards.

jmd	06 Dec 2003
Reading about Tarot isn't really about keeping on adding information, but, in my view, about transforming one's insights. In that sense, the more one reads, the more one lives, the more one engages with life in its manifold gifts and tribulations, the better one is prepared to meet and reflect what may be offered by the cards... If I deepen my understanding of mechanical engineering, I may be able to penetratingly unveil what a card or series of cards indicates may need to by done to a car (for example)... Even more so, as I deepen my understanding of the world's wondrous ways of manifesting - of the spiritual underpinnings of what externally presents itself - I may the better assist in more precisely narrating the insights but only potentially presented in a spread. This does not mean that there are intrinsic connections between Tarot and Astrology, nor Kabalah, nor I-Ching, nor &c..., but that insights gained in these other areas may enable a deeper insight into the situation at hand. Not adding to knowledge, but transforming it towards understanding and wisdom (<- & here expressed, itself, in Kabalistic form); Not adding to knowledge, but permitting elements to be transmuted to a higher integrated whole (<- a more alchemical expression); Not adding to knowledge, but permitting it to be expressed and reflected in various ways... ...in each, not only the skills of analysis and synthesis, but also the active participation of the Imaginative, Inspiritional and Intuitive organs of insightful perception.

firemaiden	06 Dec 2003
What a beautiful post, jmd! *firemaiden goes away humming, "it's about transforming one's insights" *

Tallarico	06 Dec 2003
>>In that sense, the more one reads, the more one lives, the more one engages with life in its manifold gifts and tribulations, the better one is prepared to meet and reflect what may be offered by the cards...<< by JMD I agree with you...When I was 20, I tried so desparately to read the cards...I couldn't get it, they hardly made sense. Now that I am double that... ;) the cards make more sense. More life experience, some reading, many trials... When the student is ready the master appears... Perhaps I wasn't ready, it wasn't my time when I was 20...( i'd like to italicize the "i", but haven't figured that out...i'm not ready? lol)

jmd	06 Dec 2003
... now to italicise, that I have mastered: type: [ i ] I [ /i ] This is what will appear: I :):):)

firestorm	06 Dec 2003
I think the operative word here, as in everything else in life, is BALANCE. I see too much of either side as being limiting. However, that's what my "logic" tells me, I'll freely admit to leaning more to the facts/knowledge side. The years in which I relied mostly on intuition/feelings didn't serve me very well in life....but that's me. I think the concept of "too much" is simply a subjective matter. To me, too much is anything that isn't going to further enhance my reading. I'm very interested in the history of Tarot, for example, and find it very useful, but I draw the line at being overly invested in a "cause" or "issue" that isn't going to produce an answer that will advance me in my experience. Debating endlessly on something I've already formed an opinion on isn't moving me forward, and that's very important to me. I'm more interested in the future than the past. On the other hand, in the beginning of my tarot reading, I relied more on my "intuition" and soon began wondering if it was really intuition, or merely seeing what I wanted to see.....a fine line to toe. You know, we really need a "2 cents" icon. :D edited for typos...yikes!

Tallarico	06 Dec 2003
ah, here it is, italicized Thanks, JMD!

Myrrha	06 Dec 2003
I have really enjoyed doing some intuitive readings and gotten feedback that they were accurate. I don't like rigid systems and don't believe that Waite, Crowley etc. had special phone lines connecting them to sources of the one true truth. However I want to learn more about the allegories and symbols of Tarot because that way my readings will not be limited to my own (rather tiny) pool of wisdom but will be messages from the Tarot, rather than from my own unconscious, if that makes sense. --Myrrha

Nevada	07 Dec 2003
My answer to this changes from one day to the next. I love JMD's post about transforming one's insights. That makes a lot of sense, especially when some of the data can be so contradictory. The card meanings can be different for different readings, and sometimes I'm simply blind to them, or something is clogging my intuitive plumbing, or I'm attempting to peer too closely at the matter, using a microscope when I should use my naked eye. Then I find that going to a few good books in a relaxed manner can open up my perceptions. Not studying them, but allowing some ideas entrance, ideas that I'm for some reason unable to be awake to in my temporarily constipated thinking, without a little nudge of some kind. Redwood, I would say that it's enough when you feel it's enough. You can always go to the books again later (is that like going to the mattresses? ;) ). In the mean time, you can just enjoy some time with the cards if that's what you need. Nevada

yve	07 Dec 2003
Learning tarot is like learning anything in life...how can one get enough of knowledge? It is what keeps our minds active and healthy, and tarot has the added benefit of keeping our spirits healthy...and to quote firestorm "I think the operative word here, as in everything else in life, is BALANCE" When one is not able to balance the many endeavours, then it is time to reorganize and repriortize...but you just can't get enough of something you love!

TemperanceAngel	07 Dec 2003
Everyone has their own path... Everyone is diffrerent in their approach to Tarot, whether it be books, psychology, intuition, spirituality, astrology, numerology, going to a class, teaching yourself, reading for friends', reading for clients', collecting decks for their beauty, interest, history, iconography...and so on and so forth......... We all go as far as we want to, and this is diffrerent for everyone, that is what makes us unique and all opinions valuable on Aeclectic. It's also what makes this community so great! XTAX

Cerulean	07 Dec 2003
There are some decks that tap the splish-splash in the waters of someone's imagination and one doesn't want much else to enjoy it... For instance, I don't need much else when when I look at J. Vargo's Gothic Tarot-- all the old movies and Edgar Allan Poe seem to dangle their funny little fingers and I hear the Raven croaking in a Lurchlike voice, "Nevermore, nevermore, the clanging and banging of the bells, oh sad Leonore!" I seem to have a lot of silly 19th century fiction to get out of my system. That is funny and fun, but probably a very individual response. And the other extreme, while I liked the Dante Tarot--still do--it takes a lot for me to read with it the way I want to, because I have a lot to absorb outside of its pictures when I think of the crush of all the Divine Comedy concepts and lessons being told. In between these decks, sometimes I can read clearly with Italian Milanese patterns, sometimes I have an affinity with an art deck and I need to read a little more from a related book. Lately I've been so tired by the time tarot topics come up, I have to turn to 20th century all-picture decks to pull things out. My favorite so far--although I don't know if I am reading well with it, but it seems to spark my imagination and poetry--is the one that Umbrae pointed out had a lot of literature behind it--literature that I haven't read at all yet. Gothic Tarot of the Vampires by Lo Scarabeo. The little white book was what I needed, nothing more at the moment. I'm certain I will get to reading the rich background of literature-but what it's been pulling out so far has enriched me so much in it's own way, I want to somehow go on and just focus on what it's evolving for me...at the moment, I want to wait to before I begin to look at the specific background and literature.

Nevada	07 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Mari_Hoshizaki There are some decks that tap the splish-splash in the waters of someone's imagination and one doesn't want much else to enjoy it... This is true! When a book is needed, but you don't want to overdo the studying, a good LWB is nice too--such as the one that came with my Voyager, which is a non-traditional deck. I've also found that the workbook for the Goddess Tarot is exceptional for a book written with a specific deck in mind. The minors in that deck are based on RWS, but some of the majors can throw me. I come to a dead stop whenever I see the Oppression-Wawalak (Tower) card in that deck. It just doesn't fit the Tower concept for me. (Still, this card is my only significant peeve with the Goddess Tarot.) Nevada

Khatruman	11 Dec 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Way back before A.E. Waite was on the scene, the Magician meant something different…so did the Popess… I see them as a yin and yang sorta thing but not really. One is an attempt (trying) to balance and the other is allowing balance. Try or Allow. Where the Magician is active ego, the HP is more of a letting go. Left-brain, right-brain. Intellect – spiritual. Different approaches. Different goals. One approach attempts to find answers by data sifting. And since the spiritual answers cannot be answered by data, more data does not provide answers. .... The HP, Popess, spiritual approach says, “to heck with the data…that’s not where the answers for me lie…since magic and the spirit is not something we can truly control, I’ll let it flow and be one with it. ... There are times and events to use the intellect - and times and places to use the way of the spirit. As always, Umbrae, you give me food for thought, and stimulate my own intellect, as well as intuition. I hadn't thought of your approach to looking at the magician as the yin to the Popess' yang. In fact, in what you elucidated, I saw a stronger yin/yang going on there. Yes, they are opposite, but also, I see them as more symbiotic than you seem to have shown. For me, intuitive ability often comes through, or rather after, data collection. As a newbie many many moons ago, I felt frustrated trying to develop intuitive understanding of the cards. In fact, I abandoned them. Then I was inspired again, and I read, collected data, opinions, info and insights from people here, such as yourself. Now, intuition comes easily. I see a value in data collection in that it gives one the raw understanding in which to develop the intuitive ability. Yet, as you said, data collection has the seductive ability to make one want to continue collecting until one has "found the answer." There is a certain point when one must take the data collected and, to borrow a concept from Natalie Goldberg, "compost" it. Let it ferment, fertilize, gather nutrients and send deep roots in the mind, allowing intuition to flower. The information is good, it helps ground one in data, but it comes to a point where the magician must stop gathering tricks for the bag and must perform magic. Thank you again for the fertilizer...:D

The To much information for tarot. thread was originally posted on 05 Dec 2003 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.