New Tarot heresy: divination or projection?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 08 Jan 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

firemaiden	08 Jan 2004
Heretics and witches have one thing in common, yup, we’ve all been burned at the stake. Now while you are preparing my pyre, I’d like to ask a few heretical little questions to keep us thinking… You see, I have always held that we can only truly understand of eachother, that which we already understand in ourselves. Now, I concede, not all self-understanding is experientially gained. I don’t have to have been tortured to be able to understand the horror of it. I can extrapolate – I can apply my imagination to what I do know of pain, multiply that exponentially to at least somewhat understand what it might be like. Yet, with my little maxim in mind,--that I can only truly know of you, that which I can acknowledge, or understand, in myself-- I have begun to wonder, how much of a tarot reading is really about the Querant, and how much is really about the Reader. I think back to the few readings I’ve done, and the things I’ve said, which were miraculously true, somehow, for my Querant, but they were also true of me… that’s how I knew… See what I’m getting at? Just some thoughts that were going through my mind, would love your reactions and opinions on this.

Imagemaker	08 Jan 2004
The idea that we can contain all aspects of human nature is part of what arises in a reading for another. Sometimes I think every encounter is another opportunity to bring some issue up in me. (some good, some painful) There's a fabulous book called "Loving What Is" by Byron Katie. She offers steps of thinking through a problem that another person is causing you, by observing one's thoughts. By the time you get to the end, you see that everything you blamed on the other person is also true of you. Buddhists also teach that the qualities we we despise in other people is really what we despise in ourselves. I've certainly found that to be true, though sometimes it takes a LOT of meditation and dropping all accusations and self-justification to admit it.

jmd	08 Jan 2004
In a Tarot reading, one must indeed listen to one's narrative and listen to hear whether the message spoken is about and for oneself, for the other, or even maybe for both. Nonetheless, there are many times that one will clearly speak towards the other. In the same manner that the guidance given to two different 18 y.o. about their study is not necessarily about myself at all, but rather sensing into what may be best for them - and the advice quite different ('organise yourself and begin that essay tomorrow!' vs 'take some time away and go see a film totally unrelated to your studies'). In a reading, the divinatory speech may be even more removed from what one knows of oneself. For example, a specific detail may emerge which is out of one's personal experience. As in the case of another's step-mother-in-law's recent selling of an apartment in an overseas island location... yes, some readings may have such specificity - though the current push towards only psychological-type readings would certainly strive to diminish these types of readings - readings which require a type of trust of the reader not oft discussed, and which legal constraints in many countries discourage. To go back to the earlier point, it is certainly easy for projection to occur whilst reading - but this is all the more reason for Tarot study to be ongoing... :):):)

Alex	08 Jan 2004
Projection is one of these terms that have been overused, and abused, so it is difficult to know for sure that each person who answers this thread will have a similar "meaning" in mind. But let's take, for example, a more restrictive meaning: projection as a defense mechanism in which aspects of yourself that you reject are identified, highlighed, and sometimes rejected, in another. It can happen, and probably happens more often than we are willing to admit, but what is peculiar to it, as any "defense mechanism", is that you can usually only identify it "retrospectively". TAking notes of the readings and what you've said to your sitters may help recall and identify these instances latter. Additionally, it may be helpful to excercize some level of compassion and empathy towards your own self. To the extent that is possible, try to accept, and even like, aspects of the self that you have learned to detest. So when you come accross a sitter who's just "like that', you will be able to reccognize "that" as part of yourself as well, and when you speak to that person, you will be able to speak with more empathy and understanding. Alex.

augursWell	08 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden You see, I have always held that we can only truly understand of eachother, that which we already understand in ourselves. This is certainly true, I think, accept for the "only" part. It seems to me that intuition, insight, knowing something unknown about a querent comes partly from knowing ourselves as completely as possible. If I see an image of torture in some way during a reading, from my knowledge of myself I know that I have never been tortured or harbored any basic driving need to torture anything. The image of torture then has some bearing upon the querent. Again I have to really know myself to understand what I am telling myself. Why would an image of torture come up in this reading? I am able to eliminate those things which I know are me and notice those things which are not me and somehow make an interpretation for the querent. As you say, we can only understand things in our own way, according to our own experience. But plumbing the depths of one's own soul and psyche, and knowing it like the back of our hand, which is ourselves anyway, allows us to recognize something, even if it is beyond our current understanding, that has to do with the other, the querent. Having said that, I have not done many readings for others -- but I think that intuition in my life happens in this way.

firemaiden	09 Jan 2004
Thank you all for your fascinating answers, you have given me much food for thought.

Indigo Rose	09 Jan 2004
I think we must know ourselves if we are to be effective in helping others. However, knowing one's self is an ongoing process. This is something we must work at daily, and TAROT is a powerful tool in this regard. I think that we may indeed share similar experiences and many of the same emotions with our Querents, but that is part of the universal nature of humanity. HOWEVER, I do believe if we are in touch with ourselves and have purposed to keeping our channels "OPEN" to the truth on behalf of our Querent, we can properly direct what we are seeing towards them and not ourselves. As JMD stated this is why ongoing TAROT study is necessary; and to that I add-----so is frequent self-analysis/self-monitoring. Blessings, Indigo Rose

Diana	09 Jan 2004
One can only read what one can conceive, indeed. I think there is always a danger of Projection. It is vital, absolutely vital, when one is reading for someone, to try and cut off from oneself as much as possible. Because it is dangerous to counsel someone if one is projecting one's own fears, hopes, desires, insecurities onto them. That is why Reading for someone must be done with the utmost care. One must be aware of the risks inherent in a reading, and one must do them with a hightened and conscious sense of responsibility. One thing that makes me worry not too much about the projection thing, is that I think the majority of people who get readings don't pay attention to them. I would be curious to see how many people actually follow the advice, or the insights they have received. But firemaiden, readings are not only projection. Divination is a fact. It is not a fantasy. When you do a reading for someone, and you uncover the root to their problems, you are not projecting. Can I give you an example? A young client came for a reading. He had some problems to resolve. I asked him to pull three cards - one for the past, the present and the future. The past card was the King of Pentacles. I don't recall now the other two (my notes are at work.) In conjuction with the other two cards, it was obvious to me that when he had been a child, a shock had occurred concerning his father and it had something to do with money. This had obviously traumatised the young child. I asked the client "An event occurred when you were a child concerning your father and money that troubled you greatly. What was it?." He turned white and told me his story.... that his father had been accused of stealing money from his company, the police had come to arrest him one evening, and the child saw it all. He was young and vulnerable. He never spoke to anyone about the trauma. He became ill soon after that and spent a few months in hospital. His father was soon released from custody as he was innocent and the culprit had been found. This is not Projection, firemaiden. This is Divination. It is not anything to do with Psychic power either. I just read the cards. Why did that King of Pentacles turn up? Because it was the only card in the pack of cards that symbolised a Father and Money. (It was not reversed, because I don't do reversals, but I suppose for a reader who does reversals, it would have come up reversed.) The Tarot can see ALL. It can go into the farthest corners of the universe and reveal the tiny speck of dust hiding in the darkest corner of the galaxy. It can see your past, your present and all your possible futures. Of course we can divine. Because we all have a spark of the Divine in us. But yes, there is a danger of projection. And I am glad you brought it up and I think all of us who post in the Reading Exchange should be aware of this.

Indigo Rose	09 Jan 2004
GREAT INSIGHT and GREAT ADVICE!!! Thank you Diana. Yes, I agree completely that divination is REAL and it is part of the TAROT. We do carry much responsibility in "READING" someone's life. Handle with CARE!:) Blessings. Indigo Rose

firemaiden	09 Jan 2004
Fantastic answer Diana. Now I know why I asked the question. I wanted someone to tell me, (again) yes, there is true divination, and prove it with wonderful examples. *Firemaiden is very happy*

allibee	09 Jan 2004
Dear Ms. Heretic Thinking aloud here because I somehow don't feel qualified to answer buuuuuuuuuuut ... As I was reading your post Firemaiden, the word that kept jumping into my head was Analogy, not projection. But on a much deeper level, if we all have our toes in the Universal sea of consciousness, do we not *know* everything? Do we not understand everything? Meaning: If we are in touch with the divine inside us, or outside depending on where you feel your spirit/psyche/auric self resides, is it not a matter of trawling that sea of the universal conscious? Not consciously, but subconsciously? When something comes to us in a reading are we not first 'tipped off' where to look in this sea by the card ... hmmmmmm ... think I've rambled to much and started a whole other topic, lol Best wishes Ms. Heathen ;)

firemaiden	09 Jan 2004
Dear Ms. Heathen, I think that is very well said indeed. Analogy, not projection. Very well put. You know, I think you are right.

Moongold	11 Jan 2004
Ah firemaiden ~ There is a part of one of Lewis Carroll’s books where Alice has a drink of something and wanders unto a garden where nothing is as it seems. There was a Cheshire cat there who disappeared leaving only its grin :D And Shakespeare's MacBeth reaches out for a dagger he saw only to find it is not there: Art thou not, fatal vision, sensible to feeling as to sight? Or art thou but a dagger of the mind, a false creation, proceeding from the heat-oppressed brain? Is divination like that you ask, and I think it is an excellent question. How can there be a grin without a face and a dagger that cannot be felt? How can we know, furthermore, that we are not simply projecting because we are either deluded or brain damaged? My brother is a scientist and nobody could persuade him that divination, when it occurs and seems validated, cannot be explained in scientific terms. Diana is telling a story that may well be true, but has not been validated, and I am surprised that you accepted this so easily. What kind of a skeptic are you? :D I think it is very much a matter of belief . Of course one can draw on one’s own experience and know that, on the balance of probabilities, a certain thing is likely to happen, or to have happened. I tend to think there is very often a flash of the Divine in this knowingness, but many people don’t agree. We have sometimes defined intuition in these forums as just knowing . I believe in that kind of intuition but my brother the scientist, does not. And what happens when I am wrong? What goes wrong when we are wrong? This is partly about sensitivity which we are discussing in another thread. What belongs to me and what belongs elsewhere? What is my own projection and what is an objective observation or understanding? What is that quality in us that enables us to see and to make connections between various insights. Why are we Tarot readers and not mystery writers? Part of the key is knowing oneself really well. Part of it is faith in the Divine – trusting ourselves and our intuition. And the last part, when we read: Do no harm . But it all comes down to belief (I think), whatever terms we use to describe it. There is nothing wrong with that.. I have had some tarot readings where the Reader has known things that she could not have known. I have had readings at the Victorian Spiritualist Union where the same thing has occurred. So I do believe, and consider myself fortunate to have this faith. I also have discernment and judgment, and the capacity to make informed decisions about what I believe and how I should act. Moongold

Moongold	11 Jan 2004
[quote]Originally posted by Diana [,one thing that makes me worry not too much about the projection thing, is that i think the majority of people who get readings don't pay attention to them. i would be curious to see how many people actually follow the advice, or the insights they have received.[/quote] I listen - mainly because I am interested in insights and I'm a believer. But I use discernment and judgment too. Would it be worthwhile doing some kind of survey? Perhaps even one of those infamous POLLS? :D. Moongold

Macavity	11 Jan 2004
I sometimes sense elements of projection in relationship readings? }) Yet I guess, like all sentiate beings, we simply use (conciously or unconciously) ALL of our experiences and powers of appraisal in readings? And indeed, Why not? :D On the matter of Free Will, I'm reminded that, as I child, I'd (semi-seriously) toss a coin to make a "difficult" (trivial!) decision. If I liked the result, I'd do that. If I didn't, I'd know my real intent! In some ways, Tarot seems (to me) to be a more complex version of this process. It exposes possible courses of action and focusses the will to achieve them? I wonder if the original question also relates to magick? When I began to read of such things, the skeptic in me STILL allowed the possibility there might be adepts of a "charmed" variety - Who changed objective reality with a bat of a (false?) eyelash! Maybe so, but I now subscribe more to the idea that Magick is a TWO stage process. First you project the wanted vision of subjective reality and then try (d*mned!) hard to visualise the (any) desired result. Even the peerless Mr Crowley seems to subscribe to this notion too? Magickal result or mere projection? But Hey, that doesn't (imo) negate the subjective result. :P Similarly for Tarot. Perhaps having clarified the objective, it becomes that much easier to convert into a (chosen) subjective reality? I think it is a more complex question as to whether e.g. others can experience the same (objective) reality! I feel there is sufficient anecdotal evidence to warrant investigation. But I think we enter the realm of psychology... of a shared conciousness? And, on that, I simply don't know! But that is another (safer?) alternative for most such issues. :) Macavity

Simone	11 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by allibee As I was reading your post Firemaiden, the word that kept jumping into my head was Analogy, not projection. For me, it was "syncronicity"... I have made the experience in different areas (be it Tarot, consulting sessions, Reiki, or whatever, that my querents often come on to me with a question that is very close to what is going on in my life at that moment. I see this this way: helping them with their problem will help me at the same time! I always feel very grateful for this syncronicity, I always feel that things are perfect that way and that no-one comes to see me by chance, but always for a reason that goes deeper than the appearances ;) Light and love Simone

wildinthemist	23 Jan 2004
Someone wrote: Projection is one of these terms that have been overused, and abused, so it is difficult to know for sure that each person who answers this thread will have a similar "meaning" in mind. So true. Moreover, there is a tendency for people to assume that defense mechanisms such as projection are 'bad'. We all use defense mechanisms all the time. Imagine, for example, if we were in a car accident and our most loved person was lying dead next to us and our child seriously injured in the back seat. Without the defense of denial, the 'this can't be happening', we would be so overwhelmed by the horror and grief of loss that we would be unable to function well enough to get help. Defense mechanisms are the mind's way of coping. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, in which flashbacks of intolerable situations ... like Vietnam Vets all too often experience .... could be seen as an example of the ineffective workings of the mind's capacity to suppress information at a level that enables us to function in the world. Defense mechanisms are only problematic when they are operating maladaptively .... that is, are either too rigid or too permeable. We not only 'project' what we reject ... and there can be excellent reasons for that .... we also project what we accept in ourselves and are attracted to it. We need to be aware of the functioning of defense mechanisms, including when we are using them maladaptively, but it is important not to fall into the trap of seeing everything as a projection. One indicator that the issue is really 'ours' as well as our clients, can be seen when we get a succession of readings which all address the same issue. Mind you, if you are giving readings for a group of friends .... this doesn't necessarily hold ... the issue is more likely, then, to be a function of the relationships and issues being dealt with by the group. But then maybe not!!!!!!!!

skytwig	23 Jan 2004
My belief, right now, is that a Querent's Angels and Guides are very involved in the Reading.... I feel honored to be asked and feel a deep sense of responsibility when I do a reading... I tend to view it as I would a Reiki healing session.... it is a moment for the Divine to speak to the Querent...... I did a reading for a woman who was early in recovery. All majors popped up, it blew me away. There was one card, can't remember now what it was.... Emperor or Devil..... that was clearly causing problems...... Turns out she had MPD... Multiple Personality Disorder.... and one of the personalities, a male, was bullying her around.... I read, from the cards, how she was to deal with this (wish I could remember it all... ) and it was very uplifting (she was in therapy by the way) and encouraging and I watched her whole demeanor change.... I think she was surprised that I was able to see her 'secret', but I was the one who was most affected by the reading. I was absolutely stunned!! It demonstrated to me that I have very little to do with readings.... my role is to simply be available to the Divine, just as I am when I do Reiki healings.....

augursWell	24 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by wildinthemist We not only 'project' what we reject ... and there can be excellent reasons for that .... we also project what we accept in ourselves and are attracted to it. We need to be aware of the functioning of defense mechanisms, including when we are using them maladaptively, but it is important not to fall into the trap of seeing everything as a projection. wildinthemist, I'm a little lost on this whole "project what we reject" thing. Could you please explain this a little more along with the "excellent reasons" you refer to? Thanks. :)

Umbrae	24 Jan 2004
Depends on the reader. Some project, some divinate, and some, simply entertain.

wildinthemist	25 Jan 2004
Dear AugursWell, This is actually from the Penguin Dictionary of Psychology by Arthur S. Reber, 1987 pp.580 "1. In classical psychoanalysis, (projection is) the process by which one's own traits, emotions, dispositions, etc. are ascribed to another. Typically used here with the implication that there is accompanying denial that one has these feelings or tendencies, that the projection functions as a defense mechanism to protect the individual from anxiety and that some underlying conflict has been repressed. 2. In other psychodynamic theories, the process of ascribing unwittingly one's beliefs, values or other subjective processes to others ... Here, the process is viewed as a normal aspect of psychological development and not necessarily reflective of neurotic tendencies. 3. The perceiving of events and environmental stimuli (particularly ambiguous ones) in terms of one's own expectations, needs and desires, etc. This meaning is completely neutral with regard to the issue of the pathological aspect of projection. Rather, it is accepted as axiomatic of the operation of the process itself, hence forms the theoretical basis for the use of projective techniques." (COMMENT: The Tarot could be described as a Projective technique. Definition of Projective technique is: A cover term for any test, device or set of procedures designed to provide information about or insight into an individual's personality..." 4. (Projection) is the attribution of one's own faults and shortcomings to another. This sense of the term is the one generally assumed in everyday speech and is not technically correct because of the limitation to faults and shortcomings, which is but one component of the technical meanings. Okay ... she thinks.... an example of when we project what we reject in ourselves which is advantageous to us.....hmmmm! Imagine you are highly anxious in situations where you have to speak to a group of people. Because of shyness or past experience or whatever, you assume that your audience is highly judgemental. But, in 'reality', your audience is merely interested in what you have to say. The 'judgement' aspect lies within you. How could this possibly be advantageous? Well.... if the function of this projection is to ensure that you research your subject well, and develop your presentation skills, you will have a successful experience with much positive feedback. This positive feedback then serves to reduce your anxiety in future similar situations, boost your self esteem and self image, and makes it easier for you to undertake such tasks again. You have also developed skills which are valuable in presentation and research which can be generalised to other situations. So, this projection of audience judgementalness (if there is such a word LOL) has been beneficial and adaptive. If however, this projection left you dry mouthed and unable to function, it would be maladaptive. Is that clear ???? If not, just let me know and I'll have another go at it. wild

Indigo Rose	25 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by skytwig .... I feel honored to be asked and feel a deep sense of responsibility when I do a reading....it is a moment for the Divine to speak to the Querent.....I have very little to do with readings.. .. my role is to simply be available to the Divine..... I love these comments Skytwig. When our hearts and minds are opened to GOD, we can hear and see the message HE wants us to receive. In turn, we can communicate this to the Querent. It is a responsibility to handle each person with care. Blessings, Indigo Rose

augursWell	25 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by wildinthemist Imagine you are highly anxious in situations where you have to speak to a group of people. Because of shyness or past experience or whatever, you assume that your audience is highly judgemental. But, in 'reality', your audience is merely interested in what you have to say. The 'judgement' aspect lies within you. Thanks much, wildinthemist, that explains a lot for me, having never taken a psychology course in school. :) I was confused as to whether we were discussing in this thread the concept of interpreting a card reading in terms of one's own understandings, which I feel is always the case (perhaps point 2 in your list). *OR* We were discussing interpreting a card reading in a critical way("project what we reject") in which the reader is really only talking about themselves and their own conflicts, and somehow ascribing them to the querent. This concept of a process of ascribing our own conflicts, negative emotions, etc. on to the querent is what I am trying to understand. I think there is a big difference there. This is a complex topic I think and has a lot to do with Tarot reading in its current form.

The New Tarot heresy: divination or projection? thread was originally posted on 08 Jan 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.