Tarot's predictive abilities

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 24 Jan 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

jmd	24 Jan 2004
Partly as a result of the thread I started in Your Readings on the US Democrats Presidential candidate, questions have arisen as to whether Tarot may be properly used for predictions, rather than reading them to elucidate or clarify aspects of the situation - by, for example, developing a narrative of the cards out of oneself. Many moons ago, a poll was set up as a result of similarly previous discussions. The poll, which may still be added to, is Reading the future with Tarot? Or not?. Other relevant discussions were some of the really early threads (from 2001): But How Does It Work ? Part 1 and, especially, Part 2. I suppose that some of the answers posted within the poll linked above address that question succinctly. But to briefly state where I stand. We certainly have free will, and decisions which have not yet been made about events which are yet to come are truely open. This does not mean that many events cannot be accurately predicted. For example, if a large Sunspot develops, and the solar flare which results directly sweeps the Earth, than very likely some communication satelites will be affected, resulting in certain chaotic events which can be somewhat predicted. Further, I view the world as intrinsically spiritual. Impulses from this sphere will have deep repercussions as they penetrate and manifest in the world. Individuals each have freedom to respond to, for example, the effects of a tidal wave, a volcanic eruption, or even massive atrocities which may have been committed under the overshadowing of hierarchical beings of powers far in excess of our wildest materialist imaginations. The events, however, stand outside our personal control. There may undoubtedly be possibilities to request, and be shown, certain future events (including, again for an example, an earthquake). Some social events also result not so much from personal whim, but possibly as individuals are drawn into the tides of nations' impulses. In the example of the reading I posted in the linked location above, perhaps it is of that form, and the cards also predict, or show, what is to happen - irrespective as to whether the reader is able to properly see what the cards reflect. The spiritual forces at work may be deemed, according to older nomenclature, either angelic or demonic - not according to our own preferential whims, but according to whether they work for the ongoing proper development of living beings, or against them by either seeking to accelerate or slow their maturation. So... can Tarot accurately show the future? To my mind, without a shadow of doubt - and this without in the least diminishing individual human freedom.

Baneemy	24 Jan 2004
Tarot doesn't predict the future. People predict the future. Tarot can be a useful tool for this, and for other forms of complex thinking. It isn't always helpful, though. It depends on what you need. If you need new factual knowledge -- new data -- tarot cards can't give it to you. If you need to amplify your intuition to help you interpret the data you already have, tarot can be very helpful. Reading the cards gives you no new information about the world. Doing a tarot spread is, mechanically speaking, no different from dealing a poker hand. The actual cards you get are random. You could just as easily have gotten completely different cards. So if you're dealing with a question you know absolutely nothing about, not even on a subconscious level, tarot can't help you. It can't tell you what the winning lottery number will be or the date of the next solar eclipse or anything like that. To answer those questions, you need hard facts, not a randomly selected series of evocative images. There are other subjects for which tarot works quite well. Usually people come to a tarot reader with questions about relationships, life decisions, and so on. Over the course of your life, you've picked up all kinds of intuitive knowledge about such things, and you can subconsciously pick up a great deal of information about your querent just through his/her body language and such. On a subconscious, intuitive level, you enough information to give a good answer to the querent's question. That's where the cards come in. The images in the spread, though they don't actually give you any new information about the situation, stimulate your mind to look at things from a different angle and make new connections, and more often than not you can give very good advice and, yes, even predict the future. You may experience it as a magical flash of insight that comes out of the blue, but there's nothing magical about it. Tarot is just a tool for thinking clearly with your subconscious mind. Just my opinion, of course.

Moonbow*	24 Jan 2004
I started a thread a while back regarding predicting world events which may be interesting to add to this thread so here is the link: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19625&highlight=future+events Moonbow*

Aerten	24 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Baneemy That's where the cards come in. The images in the spread, though they don't actually give you any new information about the situation, stimulate your mind to look at things from a different angle and make new connections, and more often than not you can give very good advice and, yes, even predict the future. You may experience it as a magical flash of insight that comes out of the blue, but there's nothing magical about it. Tarot is just a tool for thinking clearly with your subconscious mind. YES YES YES!! Baneemy, you've put into words what I've always had so much trouble trying to explain to people. You are awesome. :D Sorry for the enthusiastic outburst. Just had to say that.

jmd	24 Jan 2004
Wonderful replies... and great to further stimulate where one stands. In addition to the thread Can you tell World events? (thankyou for the link, Moonbow*), there was also an additional quite astounding thread which I had looked for but had not located, titled the tarot can predict the future ?. Apart from the many wonderful pages of discussion, lunalafey's incredible posts are worth re-reading. These two threads were the actual ones I had looked for, but instead located the earlier ones linked in my opening post. If I read Baneemy correctly, the implied suggestion (not what is actually written) stems from a perspective which is consistent with a physicalist-psychological view of the world and the way we are and operate within it - I say this irrespective as to Baneemy's personal stance, but rather to see the basis from which various ways of understanding the world arises from, and reflects, our personal and community's fundamental stance (often unstated). The cards are in many ways far more than bits of cardboard upon which is placed printer's ink and lacquer. Even standard playing cards are more than that. With Tarot, the images included have been selected and reflect meaning. This very post is likewise more than mere pixeled light upon an Apple PowerBook G4 (for those lucky enough ;)) monitor, but meaningful (I hope) thoughts expressed through the medium of conventional English, using standardised Latin letters, through the electronic medium so difficult to succintly describe which we abbreviate to 'internet bulletin board'. Tarot, then, as this very post too, can and does provide new information about the world. It provides it, however, not through the medium of conventional 'word' language, but through the medium of 'image' language. This is far more symbolic and, though also very precise, more fluid than we normally expect. The written language also has its fluidity, as the word 'bank' can easily demonstrate: "'bank left', the instructor said to the pilot by intercom, providing him a view below of the bank, an old wooden building still standing from years gone by by the river's bank". 'Symbolism', as Coomaraswamy wrote (in 'The Nature of Buddhist Art'), 'is a language and a precise form of thought', as I quote in another post this current discussion has just brought back to memory - again another thread with a similar subject: cards tell us future or our imagination?. In one of my posts dating from August 1982 in one of the threads linked, I use the analogy of the mirror (an image others have also before and since used variously), and ask the rhetorical question about whether it shows the distance of an object. Of course one cannot take out a tape-measure and see, from the reflected image, how far away a vase may be located. Still, neither is it quite accurate to state that the mirror does not accurately provide information about the world. Certainly we need functioning senses (of at least sight in this case). Also the ability to understand that a reversal in the presented image results with a mirror. With Tarot, I would also say that there are similarities. Firstly, a hieratic (sacred) language is utilised, in the analogic medium of imagery. Secondly, a clear and developed imaginative faculty - strictly speaking also a 'spiritual sense' - is utilised. Thirdly, the vast interconnected world, interpenetrated and within the spiritual domain, has various ways in which it manifest... one of these is through the reflections of Divinatory hieratic tools. Of course we do the reading... as also we read these posts. As they may provide new information (to us) about the world, so too may Tarot. Likewise, as these words are typed by us (or myself in this post's specific case), the spread (of words) emerges from an intelligence (well, in this case, I hope) of sequenced meaningfulness, for others to interpret, mis-interpret, or send into flights of either fancy, boredom, or indeed into veritable other realms... as for the ways a communicated spread, via the hieratic symbolic language of Tarot, may even more properly do. But as posted by Dadsnook in 'Can you tell World events?', 'everyone can use their own approach, they just have [...] [to] be patient as [the] event actually play out'. But of course, many do not agree with my currrent views on this... all the better to sharpen our individual and collective reflections.

Baneemy	25 Jan 2004
Quote: If I read Baneemy correctly, the implied suggestion (not what is actually written) stems from a perspective which is consistent with a physicalist-psychological view of the world and the way we are and operate within it - I say this irrespective as to Baneemy's personal stance, but rather to see the basis from which various ways of understanding the world arises from, and reflects, our personal and community's fundamental stance (often unstated). You are correct. I have a naturalistic view of the world. Gods and spirits and demons and magic and so on are powerful symbols, to be sure, but I don't believe in the supernatural in any literal sense. Quote: The cards are in many ways far more than bits of cardboard upon which is placed printer's ink and lacquer. Even standard playing cards are more than that. With Tarot, the images included have been selected and reflect meaning. ... Tarot, then, as this very post too, can and does provide new information about the world. It provides it, however, not through the medium of conventional 'word' language, but through the medium of 'image' language. This is far more symbolic and, though also very precise , more fluid than we normally expect. I agree with you here. Each card in the deck contains an enormous amount of symbolic information. What I'm arguing against is the "Magic Eight Ball" approach to tarot reading -- the belief that the tarot answers your question by magically making sure that you draw the "right" cards. That's not the case. The cards you get are random. Let's say you do a one-card spread and happen to get the Ace of Swords. Under the "Magic Eight Ball" theory, the fact that you drew that particular card is in itself information. You would conclude that the tarot is trying to tell you something by giving you that particular card -- that there's a reason you got the Ace of Swords instead of some other card. My point is that you could just as easily have drawn Death or Temperance or the Queen of Cups. It's a matter of chance. It's not that you got the "right" cards that contained the answer to your question. You got randomly selected cards which, by stimulating your subconscious with their symbolism, can help you answer the question yourself. Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I think it's an important distinction. All just my opinion, of course. -Baneemy

miss_apples	25 Jan 2004
I personally like to believe that we live in an extremily complicated existance where there are many things that exsist but can not be proven. In other words, I think anything is possible. I think the cards may come out at random, then again maybe your spirit guides are picking out the cards for you and you were meant to get that card. Maybe you dont believe in spirit guides or supernatural things, but you never know...they may or may not exist. There are so many things in this world that cant be proven or disproven, psychic abilities, the power in tarot, supernatural beings, and religion are all examples of this. I do think tarot READERS can predict future events if they draw a card that triggers their intuitive powers and psychic ability (if you believe in that). I would also like to add a disclaimer that the comments listed above are the opinions of Miss Apples and not necessarily the opinions of anyone else. So dont attack me ok :) lol

jmd	25 Jan 2004
I so agree that fine distinctions, which some at times take as hair-splitting inconveniences, can be important and significant. Personally, I also agree with miss_apples that there are some areas which cannot be shown to be the case by applying investigative procedures designed for, as an example, molecular physics. As an added point in that line-of-thought possibly repeated too often, physics cannot 'prove', by its own investigative methodologies, consciousness. Baneemy's and my respective view is also, possibly, where we fundamentally disagree - and it does, of course, reflect our disparate views of the world. In the drawing of, to use the example, the Ace of Swords, specific information may indeed be revealed. A number of other threads also discuss this aspect, but could not easily locate these... perhaps another time, or someone else will link these. The question raised is whether the way(s) the card(s) arise is from random meaninglessness, or not. In a spread, I personally would suggest that though the cards may indeed be drawn in ways which reflects mathematical randomness, they are not random in the sense of 'of themselves meaningless'. Indeed, as you shuffle the cards and draw the seven of swords, and then the eight of wands, there is something beyond. That we may not agree shows not only our personal differences, but the wonderful ways in which, irrespective of those views, Tarot may be further investigated as we attempt to partially explain...

Indigo Rose	25 Jan 2004
I believe that Tarot can be used to predict the future. However, GOD chooses what will be revealed. It is not for us to know all things, rather only what GOD allows. In addition, not everyone will be given the gift of seeing the future through Tarot or any other medium of divination. Again, it is GOD's choice. Blessings, Indigo Rose

Diana	25 Jan 2004
Of course Tarot can predict the future. To me this is so obvious that I don't even feel the need to discuss it. Only state my blunt opinion. If I were a good Tarot reader, I could probably predict events 3000 years or more hence. BUT!!! Aha!! Here's the rub, as our friend William Shakespeare would say. As soon as you do a reading about the future, because you have had a glimpse of it, you have already somehow altered that future. Just the fact that you know what the future will be has changed something. The ramifications can be incredibly small, or mind-bogglingly large. You can even choose to CHANGE that future in a very concrete manner and then the reading you have just done becomes so invalid that you need to immediately do a new one. And that new one creates other ramifications. Playing around with Time dimensions is a risky game. The old comedy movie "Back to the Future" and its two sequels are a wonderful example of this. That is why it is important to listen to Umbrae, when he asks: "Why do you read?"

Keslynn	25 Jan 2004
Personally, I feel that you get specific cards in a reading because they were meant for you to get them. I don't claim to understand how this happens, but I've had many cases personally where a card has "followed" me from reading to reading. This even includes readings done for me by other people. I can't even begin to calculate the mathematical probabilities of the same card showing up that way (history person here ;)), but I would imagine that it's somewhat difficult. I don't know if it's my subconscious or deities giving me messages. I prefer to think, though, that the gods like to give helpful hints. Perhaps they choose human intuition helped by tarot to do so? Tarot has accurately predicted the future for many of the readings that I've done. I do think that you have the power to change it if you don't like it, but it may be very difficult. In some cases, I was able to tell that something bad was going to happen for a friend but was unable to tell exactly what it might be, which renders it somewhat less useful. Anyhow, I've rambled long enough. Them's my 2 cents. :) Kes

ros	25 Jan 2004
I have done readings where people have told me what I said to them has happened. I'm in shock I have this ability. I think the tarot tells us what our subconscious is trying to bring out. Once our thoughts are brought out to light, we can begin to come "aware" of what is happening in our life. Tarot can help us be "aware" what is going on. Sometimes we can't see & need help, this is how tarot predicts. Not by telling us but by helping us along the way to what we already know.Sometimes we are alone with our knowing & sometimes we are in groups. Just an idea.

miss_apples	25 Jan 2004
Another thought on whether the cards come up at random or not.... Have you ever had the experience where you take out your brand new tarot deck and you know they are all upright in the deck, you shuffle them just as you would playing cards and keep them straight...not turning them or anything so they should all remain upright....yet when you lay down the cards some come up reversed. I have had that experience so Im wondering now if in fact the cards are simply random or if there is something devine controlling the deck.

MattDouglas	25 Jan 2004
I have a friend who talks about how in some disciplines of yoga, students are instructed that in their studies of yoga they will have psychic experiences, but not to be be distracted by them because they are not the point. As for tarot predicting the future, I would also say that, yes, tarot (or perhaps better, a tarot reader) can to a limited extant; but again, predicting the future is not the point. I'm not opposed however, to someone trying this out for strictly experimental purposes, to answer such curiosities for themselves. In the thread on the MJ case (in "Your Readings"), I stated that I don't see how we can really make much of a difference in anyone's life by trying to predict the outcome since it's out of our hands. However, I agree with Indigo Rose when she points out that it can be quite helpful to someone, if they are effected by a news event, to do a reading on how they are effected by it, and how they can use such energies beneficially. This however is much different from someone trying to predict an outcome for gloating purposes. I further agree with Indigo Rose when she states that visions of the future are a gift from God. However, I do feel that God loves us so much that sometimes God will grant us what we desire even if it's not in our best interest (aka, "Be careful what you wish for!"). I also feel thay God has given us all free will, which we can use to our benefit or our peril. So I think it's possible we can see things we are better off without. This is not to say that knowledge is ever a bad thing, so much as we make stupid choices with it sometimes. As an example, let's take someone with a major phobia. This person may avoid situations where they may have to face this fear, and as a result the growth they would gain from doing so is hindered. How much more is there growth hindered if they use tarot or other predictive tool to keep avoiding what they fear? This is not to say that future prediction is a bad thing. In fact, we try to do so all the time. When we make a plan, we do so considering it's possible effects and outcomes. This is, in a sense, an attempt to predict the future. Meteoroligists make a living trying to predict the future in the form of the weather. However, meteorologists are not attempting to go into a boundary-less Dionysan state to do so, they merely look at the pattern of weather is past and present and thus make a prediction of the future based on such data. I find myself doing so all the time on a psychological level when doing readings for people. Usually the cards in the "future positions" seem to follow a pattern consistent with the past and present. As for my accuracy, I'd say I'm about as accurate as your average weather man (or woman), pretty dang good but by no means 100%. I've often wondered about what exactly the difference is between intuitive and psychic. Reading one of Liz Greene's books recently, I found a decent definition. Apollo was be considered the example of intuition. He had remarkable insight and even prophetic abilties, but he always was sitting comfortable is his own skin and had a good sense of boundaries. Though she doesn't elaborate on the definition of psychic any further, I personally draw a parallel to Dionysus. He too had the gift of prophecy. However, Dionysus was never trying to seek a vision or prophecy when going into an ecstatic state. he was doing it for the fun of it. The prophecy was a by-product. For us, I don't think going into an altered state of consciousness for prophetic vision is all that swift an idea. However, if you find yourself in such a circumstance and experiencing such a lack of boundaries then it probably is a Divine gift, and by all means pay really close attention. I've probably read for over 1000 different people, some close friend, some stranger who just walked up to my table I had set up in the park. I've had Dionysan psychic experiences on 4 occasions only, where the boundary between me and the querent got very fuzzy, if not gone. In my case, these weren't vision of the future, but sensations from the past or present. Usually, I was having physical sensations of the querents traumatic experiences (I mentioned these in other posts over a year ago). While these experiences were a grace and may have allowed me to help the querent, and were even trippy and interesting, they were by no means fun and I would never recommend actively seeking them out. I've had many experiences where I have had other intuitive flashes (and accurate one at that), but it was always very clear that it was coming from somewhere else, and I could pretty much dialogue with what was coming to me and even edit it when necessary. But only in four specific situations has it got to the point where the boundary between me and other was uncertain, and I experienced sensations I had no control over at all. True, we really don't control snsations, but we can choose to move away from the stimuli (shut our eyes, cover our hears, remove hand from burning object). These just came on and I just had to let them pass. I read to try to help people and because I love the rapport that can develop during a reading. I study tarot to gain further insight and to just plain learn. Life is a process of growth in which judgment plays a role, not vice versa. When tarot becomes more about predicting the future than about learning, serving, and helping, than we have made the mistake of putting judgment over growth and caring more right and wrong than understanding and compassion. Love, understanding, and compassion, Matt

AmounrA	07 Feb 2004
I feel the predictive qualities come about due to two key reasons. 1] Time does not effect mind, mind has access to all time and events which have been percieved. 2] Schrodingers cat. A theory which basically suggests that if something is not being observed it is in a state of flux. As long as you shuffle the cards freely, any card can be anywhere in the pack. When a card is dealt and laid on a table, no - one would have any way of knowing what card it was. Therefore it can be manipulated to send an answer from the deeper & more profound regions of mind ( for me this is the window of opportunity Synchronicity uses) The good thing about this communication is its purity. As long as the cards are well shuffled, the card that comes up should be pretty un-polluted. I think it is far harder to lie down and try to see the future in the mind itself, due the the brains ability to corrupt the answers. The brain can get on with interpriting what 'chaos' has produced.

full deck	08 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Baneemy "Magic Eight Ball" approach to tarot reading -- the belief that the tarot answers your question by magically making sure that you draw the "right" cards. That's not the case. The cards you get are random. . . . It's a matter of chance. It's not that you got the "right" cards that contained the answer to your question. [/b] I do not find this to be true. I will conduct readings wherein I ask a question and will see in my mind the card *before* I pull that card. I do not just deal cards straight out of a deck but pull specific cards. I see these things regardless of the circumstances and I try not to focus upon anything in particular before hand. It just happens. Considering these things that occur with some frequency, I do not find this to hold true in my case. For the time being, I tend to agree more with AmounrA in regards to his remarks. It is more a matter of how the individual uses the cards that distinguishes wether or not they function as tools of the intuitive imagination or more as a statistical engine of sorts, which is an undesirable misapplication. Methodolgy does matter.

Never_Mind	08 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by miss_apples I personally like to believe that we live in an extremily complicated existance where there are many things that exsist but can not be proven. I do believe that the tarot predicts the future. I cannot prove it. I do believe that the universe started as a big explosion and is expanding. I believe that the chimpanzee is closely related to humans. I believe that nothing can travel faster than light. I believe that French evolved from Latin. I believe that all continents we know today were part of a big mass called Pangea. I believe that the inflammation in my wrist is caused by repetitive computer work and I believe that I have to stop typing now; otherwise I will have a terrible day at work tomorrow. None of the statements above can be proven.

AmounrA	08 Feb 2004
never mind - "None of the statements above can be proven" Can you prove that statement? ;-)

The Tarot's predictive abilities thread was originally posted on 24 Jan 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.