Tarot Special Interest Group

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 20 Jan 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

horoskope88	20 Jan 2004
Hey everyone, Well today I went to the Director of Student Activities at my highschool about allowing organizing a Tarot study group. I'd thought I'd post the details. Me: Well, I've been meaning to come down to see you, in regards to organizing a club...a New Age club. Her: What exactly did you have in mind? Me: Well, the focus would be Tarot. At this point, eher eyes widened a bit and she began shaking her head. Her: Oh, well if it's Tarot, then I can tell you now it's a definite no. Me: But....why? Her: Because the school guidelines prohibit the occult and Tarot is perceived as occult. Me: Oh, well, maybe if I could give a presentation to the schoolboard? From there the talk went to how she'd get me some kind of information-packet and told me that right now, the school isn't allowing anymore clubs but that we could get a "special-interest group" set up. (And I'm still wondering, what's the difference?) Then the talk went to...she was implying that the group would need to serve some kind of practical use. ("Like, I've gotten requests for an anime club, but once the students gaduate, they won't be interested in it anymore.") I told her if I could make some sort of presentation I thought I could "really cell the idea." (Eh, must've sounded so stupid...) Lastly, she said she'd try to help me, and left me with...a warning (?). "This is Downers Grove; you've gotta be careful." Um...what is this, the Inquisition? Anyways, atleast it's not a definite no...not yet anyways. Any comments or opinions?

galadrielsphial	20 Jan 2004
Well, I went to a very conservative, rural high school, and I know that if one of the students had gone to the principal or director of activities and asked to establish a club focusing on tarot, they would not only have been turned down flat but probably burned at the stake right then and there. So I really applaud you for trying to start one up, horoskope. I'm not surprised that she wasn't all that receptive because of how the majority of people see tarot. My suggestion is simply to keep trying, and if you do get the opportunity to present your case to the school board, just be as prepared and informative about the realities of tarot as you possibly can. Good luck! :)

cricket	20 Jan 2004
Welcome to the world of fear. ;) Many people don't know a whole lot about tarot, so they fear it, which makes them not want anything to do with it, which means that even more people won't know about it, and it all turns into a vicious cycle. I suspect that the DSA knows that and is trying to protect you from being hurt by it. Maybe she's trying to keep from raising a big stink. I know that if a tarot club were opened around here (which will not be happening in the near future) there's a good chance the people participating in it will be burned out. Literally. I'm not meaning to scare you or anything, and I'm sure you've figured out that it can be something less than ideal for certain people to find out about your tarot habit. Then again, it's a good idea for you to know exactly how bad it can be. As for suggestions: When you go to the school board, make a clear case. Don't let them shake you, no matter what they do. Sometimes it's best to laugh when you'd much rather run away. It makes them feel like idiots. It might help to take along a few people for support. If they see that there is a real interest it might open their minds a little more. Have you thought to type up some sort of handout? Maybe something with historical facts pertaining to tarot (ie: they started out either as portrait cards or playing cards and not divination tools, many of the images and archetypes are Christian in nature) would be useful. There are other people here that can tell you a whole lot more about the historical aspects than I can. There's also many places to do research on the subject. It might be useful to present some images from the cards themselves, to show that they're really not evil. They're not the tools of devil worshippers. All that assorted rot. Just a few thoughts off the top of my head. :)

Star Spirit	20 Jan 2004
I'm sorry to hear that! People can be so small-minded :( Schools tend to be like that though, because public schools are the only hope for such a thing, but a lot of them seem to have rules against teaching any kind of religion, etc. I find it unfair, however, that they prohibit study groups of any kind. It's not public that way, and it could reach a lot of people. I can understand why they might be against "occult", but I really hate how people group things they don't understand into categories. Tarot is not occult, for example, and Wicca is a valid religion. They are not "evil" in any way, shape, or form. And I wish people were more open-minded.

horoskope88	20 Jan 2004
Thanks for the encouragement! As I'm being tied to the stake, I'll be sure to give shoutouts to everyone here at AT! ;) Well, on a more serious note, basically what occult means is "hidden, secret." That doesn't make it bad; I wish it didn't have such a bad connotation. Of course, somethings occult are..well, bad...black magic and such...but we know better. I guess it's cuz occult topics like Tarot are "hidden" and "secret" that there's so much ignorance and small-mindedness concerning them. But in any case, I'll keep on trying and I'll be sure to keep this thread updated.

Cerulean	20 Jan 2004
Or a teacher/counselor of some sort to sign up as the 'monitor'. In order to get space, a teacher usually had to volunteer their classroom during certain times. If you know of a teacher who is open minded, say one of your history or art or creative writing teachers, they would be able to also guide you in terms of a presentation. Perhaps if you are in dramatic arts or some sort of creative study group, there is someone you can approach on the school staff to assist in sponsoring. However if there isn't anyone, than even though you get board approval, it may have a snag and one has to meet off campus...in that case, a bookstore either metaphysical/new age or one similar to a Borders might allow you meeting space...good luck! Mari H.

Melvis	20 Jan 2004
Hi, horoskope! I'm glad you took that first step! :) It sounds to me like she was trying to be helpful by giving you that warning. She's probably worried about backlash from parents and others when word of a Tarot Group gets around. BUT...she didn't say no. Perhaps she liked your forthrightness in wanting to go to the school board with your presentation. It seems like she is encouraging you, but wants you to be fully prepared for the consequences. And Cricket was right when she talked about fear. Tarot scares some people to death because of what they've been taught about the occult since they were children. Unfortunately, you'll also encounter people who's only knowledge of Tarot is that the D.C. snipers supposedly "used them in their killing spree last year." (This is a paraphrase of a comment recently made to me by a co-worker. She was only joking since she understands what I do with Tarot cards, but it shows what people associate Tarot cards with in their minds.) I think if you keep stressing that the cards are just that -- cards -- it will help your cause. As for what 'practical use' Tarot is, I would say there's an excellent case to be made for the personal growth aspects of tarot use: meditation, brainstorming ideas when writing, personal journaling on particular cards and how the archetypes of the cards are represented in your life, etc., not to mention all the Christian connections the cards have that can be studied (If your community is more inclined to appreciate that approach! ;) ). Many non-Tarot users just don't realize that it can be a solitary as well as a social tool, so once school is over you will carry on using and studying Tarot. Keep us posted, and good luck! Peace, Melvis :TSTRE

Dark Inquisitor	20 Jan 2004
I know about Downers Grove. Everyone knows what happens there after dark on gloomy nights when teachers go mad from sniffing too many books. But no one talks about it. Be afraid- be very, very afraid. You can't have tarot in school. It will cause a big problem with parents who think it's satanic. And other parents will look at the cards and see religious symbols they don't want in schools. And yet others will see pornography, depending on the deck. And others will see you trying to seduce their children into the alleged ways of the dark and away from the religion of their birth. It's a can of worms with no endings & no real answers. You can't change the opinion of everyone in town, nor can you force your opinion on them. Meet privately - it will be so much more interesting and you will be able to keep out people you can't stand, because they won't know about it. And then grow up & get the hell out of town. Tarotphelia

Khatruman	20 Jan 2004
Hello horoskope, This is one of those topics where I have so much to say, but unfortunately I am caught at the end of a long day and my brain is on close to exhaustion. I mainly would like to say that I offer my support. I am a high school English teacher and, if you see any of my posts here, I am very much into tarot. I don't see myself as an occultist and I see many "practical" uses for tarot, though I fear that it is hard to show practicality with something that is seemingly intangible. The suggestions that Melvis made are wonderful. They are quite useful in many creative pursuits, such as art and writing. By the way, what practicalities are offered in your typical art class anyway??? Answers in defense of them would probably work for tarot as well. I have not found much interest in my own school on the subject of tarot. When I taught an adult high school program, I did design a folklore class and had a wonderful unit on tarot, in which students were quite interested. I like Mari's suggestion on getting a teacher to back you. I certainly wish you were going to MY school, since you would have a teacher sponsor.. (ME :D), and I would help you even with your proposal. As a matter of fact, if you want to PM me, I would be willing to help you draft a proposal which, in the least, would show your board that you aren't a bunch of crazy Satanic children. Be aware though, that as a school whose duty it is to educate the public, public perceptions are extremely important, and one or two leary parents can wreak havoc on many a well-intentioned idea. As boldly daring as education ought to be, those in the profession must many times be timid. Hope my tired brain made at least a little sense.

horoskope88	20 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Tarotphelia I know about Downers Grove. Everyone knows what happens there after dark on gloomy nights when teachers go mad from sniffing too many books. But no one talks about it. Be afraid- be very, very afraid. You can't have tarot in school. ..And others will see you trying to seduce their children into the alleged ways of the dark and away from the religion of their birth. It's a can of worms with no endings & no real answers.... And then grow up & get the hell out of town. Tarotphelia Um...wow...ya know...I wasn't scared in the least bit until I read your post, Tarotphelia. Um...I have my doubts now but...well, when in Eden, do what Eve did...I think I'll still give it a shot... I've done a few readings on this subject and the Fool keeps popping up. So, here I go...leaping off the cliff...into the unknown... I don't think pornography will be an issue...I was planning our group would use the Universal Waite deck...but then again...*gulp* Though, I really must ask, what exactly do you mean "what happens on dark gloomy nights when teachers go mad..."?

Majecot	21 Jan 2004
Oh honey... That pretty much says it all! Downers Grove must be the most narrow minded, snobbish, pretencious school I have ever seen.. I think you would have had better luck if you went to Carmel (Catholic H.S). I am all too familiar with the workings of that school. I commend you for having the bravery to go to the admistration of that school. I can only just imagine how it would be for you trying to bring a Tarot group into the school. This is middle America I am afraid, (sometimes it feels like the middle ages) and I don't think you will get very far with this endeavor. Your a Senior right?

jmd	21 Jan 2004
I haven't participated in this and the other thread yet as school education takes mildly different forms in various countries, and 'clubs' and the like seem peculiar to the ways in which the schools operate locally. I must admit that I was at first a little surprised that such a club would form. As may be apparent to some, I am quite into Tarot. Various adult education courses I have taught has also made it possible to at times mention, in various relevant context, Tarot. As also both a teacher and an administrator in a school, I would have some hesitations to support a specifically Tarot club. As mentioned by Khatruman, one aspect which would need to be considered by the relevant body is public perception. Where I teach and work, this would certainly not be an issue, as the monthly Newsletter for the Conference is available in one of the local shops, and many in the community have an interest in Tarot and various other more esoteric leanings. Those who would have reservations could quickly be presented with relevant and precise information which would alleviate their concern. However, many communities would not perceive it as such, and, for better or worse, schools do generally have to be concerned about their public face. If your school is generally within a community which would look unfavourably towards Tarot, then, until that public perception was somehow addressed, I cannot see how those who give permission or otherwise for a club to form would give the go-ahead. Better, possibly, to first write a few good articles for, if there is such, the student magazine or school Newsletter. This would be informative and perhaps bring about the first steps towards altering the community's perception. My other concern as administrator would be that, irrespective as to how you would either use or discuss the cards, some would be attracted by its mis-applied divinatory aspect. 'Should I go and sleep with Damian?' or, 'should I try this new drug which I've just heard about?'. Concern, from a school's perspective, that already some which may have a more poorly developed sense of discernment would be encouraged to 'hand over' any decisions to a drawn card possibly misinterpreted. This, whether stated or not, would be an issue which would have to be tackled by the school before even permitting a club to operate. As a special interest group, this gives it an aspect which seems to imply study more than usage. However, again what and how? Also, if I was a teacher there, and though I agree that getting a teacher's support would undoubtedly assist, I would first look carefully as to how it may impact on my work. Even established and confident teachers may be undermined and lose the confidence of their community if what they are perceived to be doing runs counter to the accepted norms. Teachers do not only teach, they, for the community, to either a greater or lesser extant - depending on the place - represent the upholders of the values of that group. By all means persist, for each of us has to stand for freedom and values. But also, may I suggest, work at sowing seeds of understanding. Hope I haven't put you off your determination in any way - which was my hesitation in posting in the first place.

dolphingirl	21 Jan 2004
Hi There Forgive the short post tonight on the subject cause I am half asleep :) But one other sugestion I had is to maybe create a petition for students to sign so that you can show the school board that there is interrest in this group by other students as well as yourself. Also you might want to check out Joan Bunnings Learning tarot book (It is a really great book with lots of fun exercizes) and would be a great book to help you set up a plan. Good luck! Samantha

Astra	21 Jan 2004
Um. Downers Grove. Um. You might want to try expanding the focus just a mite. If instead of calling it a Tarot group you set up something that looked at various different meditation and self-development techniques, and planned on inviting different people in to speak, you might get away with including Tarot as one of the pieces. Bring in a somebody to talk about Native American stuff, find somebody who's good on Celtic traditions, somebody who knows something about Zen, etc. There's nothing to stop you from setting up beforehand to try to get them to include divination techniques in the talk, if you want.

galadrielsphial	21 Jan 2004
Thinking once again of my former conservative, stake-burning community ;)...horoskope, do you have a good, concrete idea of how the community at large would take the creation of a tarot group in the high school? Even though the administration of my high school was as old-fashioned as the day is long, there were many liberal, open-minded students. Their parents, on the other hand...let's just say there was a reason why pretty much all my friends couldn't wait to go away to college. What has your family had to say about your wanting to start a tarot group? Are they supportive? Because if a big stink does end up happening, you need to know how they might react. Again, I think you should follow your convictions, albeit prepared with lots of information to at least try to explain what tarot really is. You'll never know how things might work out if you don't take a chance.

Mystic Zyl	21 Jan 2004
I have a friend that teaches in a public system, that had an unfortunate experience happen to her. She had a substitute teacher in her room and the sub let the kids go through her desk. The kids found the tarot cards and played with them for about 15 minutes before the teacher asked the kids to put them away. The next day 2 of the students' parents call to complain about the tarot cards. My friend had no idea what the Principal was talking about, until she asked her class what when on the day she was not there. The Principal warned her that he would write her up if she ever brought the cards back on the school property.

jmd	21 Jan 2004
What an amazing contrast... A while back, I posted a link to the creator of the Tarot de la Félicité site in which he is pictured creating a Tarot deck in a French state school, paid for as something like 'artist in residence' by the French Ministry... Where I teach, a number of parents have attended either some of my courses or talks... and a number of students know of my interest, and may on rare occasions ask me some question which their aunt, for example, has asked them to ask me about. I also have at least one deck in my desk drawer, and if anyone dared ask me to remove it from the premises, I do not know quite how I would begin to address their inappropriate blinkered closed-mindedness - one inappropriate in a pedagogical institution!

HudsonGray	21 Jan 2004
Do you KNOW how many 'occult' New Age stores there are in the Chicago environs???? Tons! About 20 more than we have here in Milwaukee *grumble lucky bastards grumble*. I wonder if it would be worthwhile to focus on the historical aspects (show this teacher a Marsailles deck for instance) then to modern ones (something maybe non-threatening with no nudity, like the Whimsical Tarot or artsy like the Victoria Regina?). Nothing scary like the Vampire or anything that would feed fears. A nice Zen Tarot for art, or...well, pick something that doesn't look even remotely satanic, maybe an Egyptian deck? Considering that decks are sold in every major bookstore in the US, I'm surprised that she reacted that way. Unless she was thinking of the parent's potential reaction. But showing them the Whimsical would be likely to alleviate some of that fear. Maybe xerox off images of all the cards as handouts? Learning that deck, they can apply things to the standard Rider Waite & allow the students to move on to whatever deck they like. Make it non-threatening. Give good reasons, but don't argue (it closes others minds when you start defending or pushing things). Maybe expand the 'new age' concept to include native american beliefs (hey, how about one of the Native American decks...hmm), Celtic (ooohhh, the Arthurian deck!), etc. Considering that the cards are simply archetypes, not satanic or particularly occult, it puts things more in line with psychology than with anything scary. Keep on it! Maybe change focus a tad if the 'tarot only' thing gets shot down. Add in meditation (you can meditate on pictures *ahem* cards). Be creative.

snuffy	21 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Astra You might want to try expanding the focus just a mite. If instead of calling it a Tarot group you set up something that looked at various different meditation and self-development techniques, and planned on inviting different people in to speak, you might get away with including Tarot as one of the pieces. Bring in a somebody to talk about Native American stuff, find somebody who's good on Celtic traditions, somebody who knows something about Zen, etc. There's nothing to stop you from setting up beforehand to try to get them to include divination techniques in the talk, if you want. horoskope, i go to an oppressively conservative high school as well, but when i read astra's suggestion, it struck me as a club that might even survive where i live. focusing more on "self-development", 'meditation", and other cultures would really beef up your cause in this neck of the woods-- especially if you got the cultural awareness campaign involved. who could possibly turn down such a diverse and informative interest group? although your school board might be a "frozen chosen" (as we refer to them around here), cultural awareness is always a winner. our school board loves nothing more than (attempting) to bust ignorance.

MeeWah	21 Jan 2004
JMD: I think 'tis absolutely wonderful that ye apparently have the blessing of thepowersthatbe at your workplace! At the risk of possibly derailing this thread: 'Tis been my experience that Europeans are far more open to certain subjects such as history & sex. For instance, they have a broader of view of American history. The version we get is heavily sanitized. Considering that America was settled by immigrants seeking religious/spiritual freedom, the views of the American public oft a distinct contrast to the founding principles. That some neighbors & co-workers avoid me because they perceive my beliefs & practices to be not only radically different than what they espouse, but to be threatening gives one pause. Like me, my family has learned to be careful with whom they share with & more significantly: who their friends are.

Khatruman	21 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by horoskope88 Though, I really must ask, what exactly do you mean "what happens on dark gloomy nights when teachers go mad..."? Teachers go mad???... MAD you say???? We teachers never go MADDDDD }) *Looks at the designation under my name* Whooooops... heh heh

Astra	22 Jan 2004
Hudson Gray - what the teacher thinks about it, unfortunately, is unlikely to make any difference. This is an area where a school was picketed because they'd brought in a stage magician - never mind that stage magic has nothing whatever to do with any occult area (well, usually). Where you have a pocket of vocal fundamentalist parents, you have a school that's really tippytoeing around the whole area for fear of lawsuits. Chicago does have an overabundance of good new age and pagan stores, and several thriving pagan communities, but that doesn't mean anything once you're outside the city limits, unfortunately.

mercenary30	22 Jan 2004
Downers Grove sounds like the setting of a Stephen King Novel.....Maybe we should dig into this further..... Twisted teachers, ominous warnings, burning at the stake... What would be a good title? Tarot Reader (Stephen was always so blunt with his titles..) Cartographer of Carnage (B movie type title) Secret Salem Society (Decendents of the original, living in a new community.) :) I am not trying to trivialize the real issue here, just couldn't pass up the opportunity to lighten the room with some humor.

mzmystic	22 Jan 2004
I'd research the Jung and Tarot aspect and compile some facts about that. Jung was a very well-respected person and all teachers have to take psychology courses, I'm sure, which would put them in touch with his work. The archtypes and how that works with our subconscious would be an excellent argument to show how Tarot probably works with our own minds, rather than it being a channeling of evil spirits. If I remember right, the dictionary definition of "occult" is "hidden knowledge" or something to that effect. Right? Using a dictionary definition can also be helpful in making points because it gets rid of the misconceptions people hold as to what a word or term really means. Edited to include a definition: Pronunciation: (u-kult', ok'ult), [key] —adj. 1. of or pertaining to magic, astrology, or any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies. 2. beyond the range of ordinary knowledge or understanding; mysterious. 3. secret; disclosed or communicated only to the initiated. 4. hidden from view. 5. (in early science) a. not apparent on mere inspection but discoverable by experimentation. b. of a nature not understood, as physical qualities. c. dealing with such qualities; experimental: occult science. 6. Med.present in amounts too small to be visible: a chemical test to detect occult blood in the stool. —n. 1. the supernatural or supernatural agencies and affairs considered as a whole (usually prec. by the). 2. occult studies or sciences (usually prec. by the). —v.t. 1. to block or shut off (an object) from view; hide. 2. Astron.to hide (a celestial body) by occultation. —v.i. to become hidden or shut off from view.

horoskope88	25 Jan 2004
a BIIGGGG thank you for all this feedback everyone!! I really appreciate all the ideas and advice. It will certainly be a big help. Currently, I'm in a state of stastis. That is, the procedure for forming a study-group is being reviewed and revised. The new "information packet" isn't ready yet, though the DSA says once it's done, I'll be "the first to get it." Atleast that'll give me some time to..prepare. (Though, I'm happy to say I kinda knew this period of inaction was coming. On a previous Tarot spread, I read that after making my proposal, I'd be in a period of inaction and quiet preparation. The High Priestess, no doubt :) ) I honestly don't think there'll be any uproar form the community. I actually don't have any idea how Tarot is percieved around these parts, besides being a pawn for taking the money of hapless, simple-minded ppl. My peers...um...let's just say nearly all of them don't care enough about ANYTHING to be against it... I hope things get moving soon.

Mimers	25 Jan 2004
Good luck Horoskope! Even if it doesn't pan out be very proud of yourself for stepping up to the plate. I am impressed. Blessings, Mimi

Jen	25 Jan 2004
Quote: Originally posted by cricket Sometimes it's best to laugh when you'd much rather run away. It makes them feel like idiots. LOL...Nice :D horoskope88, I agree with the others here - you can definitely be proud of yourself. It's like you're traversing in uncharted territory - you're a pioneer! This is how change is made. :) Even if the school gives a thumb's down you could start a group at a local coffee shop. Word will get around and interested people will show up. You can put up flyers around town in bookstores and coffee shops. Are there others that want to start this group with you?

horoskope88	04 Mar 2004
Yes, after nearly 2-month's hiatus, the Director of Student Activities has asked me, "What period is your resource? Would you like to come down tomorrow to go through the (application) forms with me?" So yes, the forms are finally here. And things will get in motion tomorrow. Unfortunately, I lost interest in the project quite a while ago. Oh well...it's not like I have anything better to do with my time... I hope I'll be ready for the interview tomorrow...and that I can answer all the questions she's bound to have (How does Tarot work? What are its origins? etc.). Anyhow, I do have a short list of sort-of "mission statements" for the group. (Based on Amber Jayanti's objectives for her Tarot for Dummies book) 1). To make the tarot accessible and comprehensible to students and faculty and to provide a supportive and cooperative setting to those interested for studying the tarot and similiar arts. 2). To practice the many wonderful things that can be done with tarot and to become proficient in the art of tarot reading and interpretation, with regards to tarot ethics. 3). To dispel tarot's long reputation as a worthless tool used to scam people of their money. 4). To show that media representations of the tarot as a murderer's calling card are biased and misinformed and that the tarot's reputation as a tool for practicing black magic are based on ignorance. 5). To promote the tarot as a wonderful tool for guidance, advice, and learning with many practical uses. Anyone have anything to add, or want to change?

Khatruman	04 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by horoskope88 1). To make the tarot accessible and comprehensible to students and faculty and to provide a supportive and cooperative setting to those interested for studying the tarot and similiar arts. 2). To practice the many wonderful things that can be done with tarot and to become proficient in the art of tarot reading and interpretation, with regards to tarot ethics. 3). To dispel tarot's long reputation as a worthless tool used to scam people of their money. 4). To show that media representations of the tarot as a murderer's calling card are biased and misinformed and that the tarot's reputation as a tool for practicing black magic are based on ignorance. 5). To promote the tarot as a wonderful tool for guidance, advice, and learning with many practical uses. Anyone have anything to add, or want to change? They sound like good rules, and as far as changes, I would probably suggest only to replace some of your opinion words for more objective words, just to give yourself a more professional air. How about this? 2). To practice a variety of effective techniques that can be practiced with tarot and to become proficient in the art of tarot reading and interpretation, with regards to tarot ethics. 3). To dispel tarot's long-entrenched reputation as a swindlers' tool used to scam people out of their money. 4). To demonstrate that media representations of the tarot, such as that of a murderer's calling card, are biased and uninformed misrepresentations, as well as tarot's reputation as a tool for practicing black magic, all of which are based on lack of knowledge. 5). To promote the tarot as an effective tool for guidance, advice, and learning, in addition to its many other practical uses. Hope these suggestions may help put you in a more informed and positive light. Tell us how it turns out.

horoskope88	04 Mar 2004
Thank you for revising that for me. Yes, that does sound so much more professional.

Haunted	07 Mar 2004
hey horoskope, even though you said you've lost interest, it seems you're still going ahead with the idea. good luck with it. keep us posted, 'k?

Mimers	08 Mar 2004
Good luck Horoskope, I really admire you for this! Mimi

The Tarot Special Interest Group thread was originally posted on 20 Jan 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.