About forum polemics

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 28 Feb 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Kissa	28 Feb 2004
This post doesn't need any reply, it doesn't need to become a polemic, and please, if you disagree with me, which is your most obvious right, try to state your opinion in a gentle manner. I have been around the forum for a while now, not as long as some "ancestors" whom I admire and respect. Have been away, back, away and back. Things happen both in real life and here. I don't know if the internet does it or if ppl just are as aggressive in the real world as on forums, whether it is a matter of communicating in a new way or a personality thing. Whatever. I just wanted to say that we are all different and we judge things with our experience, education, environment, social norms etc. I think opinion on tarot decks (whether you love or loathe this one or that one and why) and the role of Tarot in your life (is it a hobby, a passion, a therapy, an income, a fun thing) is up to every one as well. I personally don't thing that Tarot is sacred. It doesn't bother me at all that someone takes ugly pictures of themselves with their pets and collage them in an ugly way and sells the result as tarot cards. It doesn't bother me that ppl with no tarot knowledge print their own deck. And in spite of that, I still call myself a Tarot student. It's like with animals. I hear ppl telling me sometimeshow much they LOVE animals. And yet, they have their cat declawed and they thing loving their dog means serving its food in a golden cup and having the poor pet trimmed in a weird way, hairs attached with pink ribbons and stuff. Well cats need their claws or they wouldn't have been born with them in the first place and dogs just want to run free and smell buddies' butts. That's what dogs like. Yet I try my best to understand them and love them the way they are. Some ppl thing that the unconditional love to their pet can be measured to the number of fancy leashes and toys they offer him. They make their opinion with what's between their ears, their education, own experience etc. I use tarot, I study tarot, I love spending time with my cards and journalling the whole stuff. But they are just cards, mass produced items of paper and ink. I know what they mean to me, that is what is important, not if other ppl like their artwork or whether it is made like it is supposed to be and numbered properly. I enjoy a deck where you can feel the artist's passion and work though. Some of you are going to disagree very much with me, that's fine. I honestly am ok with it. I know that Tarot is sacred for many of you. While I am interested in the Tarot history, its evolution, I am not relying on systems or norms to read cards. Intuition does the trick, intuition is what puzzles me in the all process. So that's it. I love Tarot, you love Tarot, yet you don't like my way of reading and fing ugly the decks I like or find it a sin to make fun with a deck. That's fine. I share my life with the most wonderful person on earth and he sometimes do things I hate (Take a man. A sofa. And chili con carne as a dish. Get it?) So I thing we can live together peacefully and respectfully in front of our respective computer screens. Blessings to all of you, Kissa If this message is not posted on the right forum, please moderator, feel free to move it elsewhere.

jmd	28 Feb 2004
I'm not sure what change or development you may have noted which I may havee missed, Kissa, but otherwise tend to very much agree with the general thrust of your post: each has particular views, and some are able to more gently express these than others. I personally do tend to see the spiritual at work in much of the world, the physical manifestations being but the outer garment of things more deeply worked - and this goes for thte Tarot as well. Even the very construct of the computer I am using, and the means by which we are able to communicate across the world in myriad ways, has a greater dimension than mere light pixels upon a monitor. One of the aspects of Aeclectic that I generally have appreciated is precisely that much of the communication has a tone of respect - though we each at various times falter in our own specific ways. From my perspective, I am certainly enriched by the myriad contributions made by so many, and trust that the more positive tone, respect and sense of reverence for the very possibility in this being the case continues - so thanks for the timely post.

Marion	28 Feb 2004
Hi Kissa, I agree with your post. I also love tarot and I also frequently do not agree, wholly or in part, with others opinions but that doesn't bother me or hold me back from enjoying the interchanges. Folks sometimes express themselves rather strongly and furthermore disagree with my opinions, but that's life. People hold strong opinions and express them. I am also not sure what specific interchange set this off, though it may have been cumulative. I think it was a good expression of what what many of us feel from time to time. Thank you. Marion

ros	28 Feb 2004
I agree. Also I think we all must understand that our views change with our understanding and where we are in life. Life changes our lives & our outlook. I try not to take things personally because it's not always about me. Thanks for the thread!

full deck	28 Feb 2004
I agree in principle with what you say. I'm not sure about *what* polemics you are concerned about. People in the forum are often nice and sometimes *too* nice :-) but that's all fine. If anything, the forum helps one to learn to listen to others and listening is not a common thing nowadays. I find that run into interesting ideas here, more than most other places and that is good.

crystal cove	28 Feb 2004
I agree in principal with what you say as well, but as we know, with imperfect human beings, principal and practice are often two different things. Some people judge other tarot readers and their decks, and others judge other pet owners and their pets. Actually, I was thinking that it's been rather peaceful and pleasant here lately.

Logiatrix	28 Feb 2004
Beware of saying, "This post doesn't need any reply." Like that's gonna keep Aeclecticians at bay....as if! ;) Anyway, I'm with twenty~one--I thought we'd all been behaving ourselves lately (*yawn*), but I guess it never hurts to contemplate those issues about issues, and people who have issues, and so on. At any rate, I didn't know what "polemic" meant, so cool, I've got a new word! Thanks, Kissa (I think) for making me think (ouch!).... PEACE :D

Diana	29 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Kissa It's like with animals. I hear ppl telling me sometimeshow much they LOVE animals. And yet, they have their cat declawed and they thing loving their dog means serving its food in a golden cup and having the poor pet trimmed in a weird way, hairs attached with pink ribbons and stuff. Well cats need their claws or they wouldn't have been born with them in the first place and dogs just want to run free and smell buddies' butts. That's what dogs like. Yet I try my best to understand them and love them the way they are. Some ppl thing that the unconditional love to their pet can be measured to the number of fancy leashes and toys they offer him. They make their opinion with what's between their ears, their education, own experience etc. Kissa, whenever you are with a group of people who are passionate about something, you're going to get the kind of polemics you are talking about. It's like with Tarot. I hear ppl telling me sometimes how much they LOVE Tarot. And yet, they have their Tarot desacralised and they think loving their Tarot means adding pretty little fairies and gnomes and rainbows, with pink ribbons and stuff. Well, Tarot doesn't need pretty little fairies and gnomes or rainbows, with pink ribbons and stuff or it would have been born with them in the first place. Some ppl think that the unconditional love to their Tarot can be measured by the number of decks they own and the kind of bags they can offer it. I love you my friend! (((((((((Kissa))))))))

Umbrae	29 Feb 2004
It happens… And over the two years I’ve been here I notice that it happens in waves – cycles. You can darn near predict when the next polemic cycle will begin. See, it’s about beliefs, opinions…passion. God(dess) knows I’ve been involved in my share – and to all those toes I’ve stepped on – truly – it was out of passion and love. It’s about being able to come back tomorrow, fresh, sitting down with a cuppa coffee and and a hand-rolled, and being fresh, with no axe to grind or grudges to carry… Cuz hey…we’re about to flip another card, you and I…

Moongold	29 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae It’s about being able to come back tomorrow, fresh, sitting down with a cuppa coffee and and a hand-rolled, and being fresh, with no axe to grind or grudges to carry… I really like this, except for the handrolled. Starting afresh with people doesn't always happen so easily and we would be fools to trust completely perhaps. Perhaps, for me, it is more about acceptance of where people are at in a particular moment and allowing them the opportunity to change, grow, or show other dimensions of themselves. I might have seen just one small part of someone, not the whole picture. I hope people will allow that much to me, at least. Good thoughts, Kissa :) Moongold

full deck	29 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana . . . and yet, they have their Tarot desacralised and they think loving their Tarot means adding pretty little fairies and gnomes and rainbows, with pink ribbons and stuff. Well, Tarot doesn't need pretty little fairies and gnomes or rainbows, with pink ribbons and stuff or it would have been born with them in the first place. Then I guess you won't like my upcoming "Tarot of the fluffy, big-eyed vampire puppy people on a noodle-eating poodle".

Logiatrix	29 Feb 2004
I feel like starting another polemic cycle....it's just too quiet around here right now.... I can't stand poodles! A pox on your poodle! Down with poodles!!! Muwahahahahaha!!! })

Cerulean	29 Feb 2004
The next new tarot deck will be in memory of French poodles marching with their curved Marseilles sword patterns to meet Swiss hybrids that will pelt acorns and bells from the Alps. As a cosmic response, somewhere, from deep in Italy, either Bologna or Ferrara, the tarocco of other ancient animals will be discovered and published. Soon a proliferation of Asian anime knockoffs. Given the trend toward fluffy bunnies, they will morph into cute pastel colors and following latest trends, gilded in silver and gold inks in time for Easter. If one looks closely, the title will be Golden Tarots of the Bezarre

Umbrae	01 Mar 2004
As long as the poodles are vampires, fine. As long as they have pubic hair, fine. But noodle eating poodles? You motherless worm eating pea-brain sotted pox ridden frog…Poodles make lovely targets…Shoot them, kill them, eat their raw flesh, veins hanging from my teeth… I’ve gone to far…I’ve pushed the envelope… I’d like to apologize for my outburst, I have no idea what I was thinking. No I was thinking about non-vampiric poodles…which makes my blood boil! Unless they are wearing six little brassieres… or is it eight…

full deck	01 Mar 2004
Wow . . . The "Fox in Socks" is a kids book by Dr. Seuss -- the *real* Tarot master.

Logiatrix	01 Mar 2004
That's it, we've offended full deck! :eek: Now I remember why that whole polemic thing was so bothersome.... Poodles can get hurt in here. The poor guy probably owns and loves a fluffy, metallic pink, noodle-eating, bustier-wearing, vampiric French poodle... I must apologize to the poodle of full deck. (Why is it that I am always apologizing? Note To Me: Behave yourself.) Power to the Poodle! Power to the Poodle! :D Back to non-polemic serenity...for now. ;)

Nycelle	01 Mar 2004
The last few posts lost me and made my head spin a little, but I blame my head cold for that. Kissa, I agree with what you say. Not everyone here on AT has opinions similar to mine, but I find it greatly enriching to hear what other people have to say. Variety is the spice of life, and all that. . . my study of the Tarot is primarily artistic and historical, but it is impossible not to be drawn into the spiritual aspects. Being on AT has opened my mind to some fantastic new ideas. Peace to you all!

Dark_angel	01 Mar 2004
Poodles can be very funny, though. My grandparents used to have one, and it hated my grandfather so much that one day it jumped up and bit down on his nose. It hung there for what seemed like ages. No wonder they're so miserable though; they have permanent bad hair days. :D

Khatruman	01 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Kissa I don't know if the internet does it or if ppl just are as aggressive in the real world as on forums, whether it is a matter of communicating in a new way or a personality thing. Whatever. I just wanted to say that we are all different and we judge things with our experience, education, environment, social norms etc. I think opinion on tarot decks (whether you love or loathe this one or that one and why) and the role of Tarot in your life (is it a hobby, a passion, a therapy, an income, a fun thing) is up to every one as well. So that's it. I love Tarot, you love Tarot, yet you don't like my way of reading and fing ugly the decks I like or find it a sin to make fun with a deck. That's fine. ...So I thing we can live together peacefully and respectfully in front of our respective computer screens. I absolutely agree with your call for tolerance of differing opinions, and I further see that what makes this forum mostly successful is that wonderful tolerance that studiers of tarot seem to have for differences!!! In fact, the successful threads here are ones that contain differing opinions. What would we have to discuss if everyone's viewpoint were the same? There are some threads, often with decks that everyone likes, which just deteriorate into "Yeah, I agree!! Cool!!!" so they lose their wind. There are times when I will begin a thread to spark a disagreement, to see what others believe, to see what shades of understanding there are in that issue, and not to get a "right" answer... sometimes I have my opinion, but I just want to see others. There are times where I will contribute to a thread purposefully to offer a differing opinion. The intention is to get others, and myself, to stretch their understandings of the issue, not to start a ruckus or to hurt someone's feelings (though sometimes they do cause a ruckus :D). If I hurt another's feelings, I try my best to correct the offending language and/or explain my intentions, which should be towards the issue, not the issuer. I feel I learn from hearing others, from seeing how they see the world and to expand my own. In that way, I need others to be contrary to me to show me what I don't already see. Kissa, if you see intolerance or fighting on this site (which, in my experience is quite rare as compared to other forums.. I believe that it is because we are a bunch of intellectual, tolerate beings) I think our moderators do a wonderful job of sorting out the problems, and our posters do a wonderful job of admitting mistakes and working beyond them. I have had a few head butts with other members, and I think I have worked them out and found new respect for them in the end. Not that you are saying so, Kissa, but I worry that a meaning can be drawn from your post that offering differing opinions can be destructive, or that everyone should keep their opinions to themselves, if they are not in agreement. I see it as positive that people disagree, as long as the disagreement is intended to bring more understanding to an issue, rather than to become a power trip where alpha males are beating their breasts. Perhaps one of the reasons for this is the deeply feminine influence. By feminine, I am speaking of the nature of femininity (in BOTH males and females) of solving problems by talking them out, seeing all sides, debating, etc., rather than the masculine influence of defeating your enemy. Just my two cents.... and thank you for this thread. :)

Kissa	02 Mar 2004
OK. Nobody here offended me, I wrote the thread just out of nowhere, after reading old ones and going thru painful memories. I am glad we are here to disagree with courtesy. I am leaving for a while now so I wish you all the best, enjoy Solandia's baby ... Blessings to all of you, my dear fellows ... PS: I really hope you guys can get Umbrae off his medication by the time I'm back })

ros	02 Mar 2004
I may not be the brightest card in the deck BUT this is crazy!

Diana	02 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Kissa I am leaving for a while now so I wish you all the best, enjoy Solandia's baby ... [/i] How long are you going to be away? I don't like it when you go for too long, because it gets lonely without you.

lark	02 Mar 2004
Bye Kissa come back soon..... I didn't know Solandia was having a baby? Get Umrbae off his medication? I was hoping somebody would put him ON medication. I'm so confused :confused:

skytwig	02 Mar 2004
Lark, you are so funny! :laugh:

The About forum polemics thread was originally posted on 28 Feb 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.