Rws & Thoth

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 09 Feb 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

ros	09 Feb 2004
Has this been discussed before? I use RWS mostly but decided to dig in to see why the Thoth doesn't sit well with me. I have found that the Thoth cards are more aggressive or deeper that Waites. I wanted to use the Thoth meanings for the RWS cards, so I didn't have to use the Thoth cards. (purple box) After studying RWS & numerology & now trying to find the uneasiness of Thoth I think mabee it is just another way of thinking. I now think it is just where your at with your learning & what you're willing to learn. Wondering is RWS Cards left brain thinking & Thoth Cards right brain thinking? Just an idea. Thanks for any replys.

FourLeafClover	09 Feb 2004
"Agressive" is a good word for the Thoth deck. For the longest time after I got it, I was afraid to use it for readings because what if I turned up "ruin" or "cruelty" or "failure"? Even worse, what if one of those showed up in somebody ELSE's reading? How would I explain that? What I've found is that it's a good deck to use for the study of concepts or for a reading where you feel you need really straight answers. I've found the negative cards are balanced easily by the joyful cards, like "happiness" and "victory" and "love".

Macavity	09 Feb 2004
I think (with notable exception?) the Thoth keywords fit the RWS very well. There is usually something in the image that fits the keyword or provides an interesting counterpoint? Waite and Crowley came from a very similar tradition, even if they rarely (or openly!) shared a documented viewpoint on other matters? }) Macavity

ros	09 Feb 2004
Also I was thinking that RWS tellings you where you are at & Thoth tells you bluntly how or why you are there. The same but different.....

AmounrA	09 Feb 2004
RWs is a quazi- tarot because of its 'illustrated' suit cards. This is not true tarot, which does not have 'illustrated' suits. Thoth is a true Tarot deck and keeps faith with its principles.

Phoenyx*	09 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by ros I have found that the Thoth cards are more aggressive or deeper that Waites. They certainly are more aggressive cards than the RWS. Instead of sort of easing you into the situation, they tend to slam it in your face, and force you to deal with the situation.

TemperanceAngel	09 Feb 2004
I had a reading when I was about 20 from a guy who looked like a wizard, with a Thoth deck... I was living with my boyfriend and had been for about 3 years and everything was falling apart at the seams. Well, you are right about Thoth being blunt :laugh: The wizard laid down the cards and there were all these swords with blood on them, he didn't need to say anything, it was quite obvious... He did say, 'You need to get out of there now!!!' It's only recently (just over 10 years later), that I thought about getting a Thoth deck again... XTAX

Rusty Neon	09 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by ros I wanted to use the Thoth meanings for the RWS cards, so I didn't have to use the Thoth cards. (purple box) After studying RWS & numerology & now trying to find the uneasiness of Thoth I think mabee it is just another way of thinking. Crowley's modifications to the Order of the Golden Dawn tarot are essentially to the major arcana, to reflect Thelema, a GD-variant system developed by Crowley. Generally speaking, when it comes to the minor arcana, the divinatory meanings (DMs) of a given minor arcana card in the RWS deck can be reconciled with the DMs of that card in the Thoth deck. This is because both decks' minor arcana are essentially based on the DMs given to the cards in one of the Order of the Golden Dawn's main tarot manuscripts, the _Book T_. Ros ... Are there any particular cards of the minor arcana that you don't think can be reconciled as between the two decks? If so, tell me which cards they are, and we'll see if we can't reconcile them.

Emily	12 Feb 2004
I have used the Rider Waite and the Thoth side by side, I studied them both for a while - but I found the Thoth to be a far more intense deck, one that really deserves its own study and not next to the Rider Waite. I find that the Majors of the Thoth are as easy to read as the Rider Waite but the Minors are in a league of their own. Even the re-naming of the Courts and doing away with the King. Even now I still read the Thoth Knight at the King, then the Prince as the Knight, it works for me and always has but its not the Crowley way.

Thea Lynx	12 Feb 2004
Very accurate, Ros, My Thoth is my power deck - always goes deep and makes me look at things I would just as soon not - but that is all part of self-awareness. At first, I stayed religiously with only Thoth meanings (mostly gleaned from Mirror of the Soul) when I worked with Thoth. Now that I have absorbed more knowledge, there are many times that a Thoth meaning will cross over into a Rider style deck and vice versa - I am finally learning to go with the way the particular card feels to me at that time in that spread, regardless of whether it is Thoth or RW. I am starting to understand that this is what the Tarot wants me to do - study, think, FEEL. Thea Lynx

Centaur	13 Feb 2004
I do think that one could think of the Thoth as more aggressive. I find that some of the card names: cruelty, and failure, etc, are slightly dramatic. I always find the dramatic nature of these cards to hold more than a slight tinge of dark humour... especially when one is reading on what might be a frivolous topic. For instance, I can remember performing a reading to ascertain the level of difficulty for an essay question whilst at University... I pulled the cruelty card. I had to laugh. And yes, it was true: it WAS cruelty! C

lark	13 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Centaur I do think that one could think of the Thoth as more aggressive. I find that some of the card names: cruelty, and failure, etc, are slightly dramatic. I always find the dramatic nature of these cards to hold more than a slight tinge of dark humour... especially when one is reading on what might be a frivolous topic. For instance, I can remember performing a reading to ascertain the level of difficulty for an essay question whilst at University... I pulled the cruelty card. I had to laugh. And yes, it was true: it WAS cruelty! C I had a reading done and the Failure card came up in the position... What will help you on your way to success? The reader was stumped and didn't know how to interperet it. That always puzzled me. Any thoughts.

Centaur	13 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by lark I had a reading done and the Failure card came up in the position... What will help you on your way to success? The reader was stumped and didn't know how to interperet it. That always puzzled me. Any thoughts. Another instance of the Thoth being very 'in your face'. Ha! I guess I might interpret that to mean that the experience of failure in some way contributes to our growth as human-beings so that the next time we next attempt the same thing, we have more chance of success in that pursuit. For instance, in the case of learning to drive. I know people who failed there test four or five times before finally managing to get the hang of it. As an aside, I always find Crowley's interpretations of the cards to be most dramatic. In his Book of Thoth, it is VERY dramatic. I wonder if he ever managed to chill out. Hehe. C

lark	13 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Centaur Another instance of the Thoth being very 'in your face'. Ha! I guess I might interpret that to mean that the experience of failure in some way contributes to our growth as human-beings so that the next time we next attempt the same thing, we have more chance of success in that pursuit. For instance, in the case of learning to drive. I know people who failed there test four or five times before finally managing to get the hang of it. As an aside, I always find Crowley's interpretations of the cards to be most dramatic. In his Book of Thoth, it is VERY dramatic. I wonder if he ever managed to chill out. Hehe. C Humm sounds like me. I always do things the hard way. Come to think of it I lost my job and I've never been happier!! I think Crowley must have been an exhausting person to be around. Some how I can't picture him sitting around on a Sunday morning reading the funny papers and eating a bowl of Cornflakes and bananas.

Centaur	14 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by lark Some how I can't picture him sitting around on a Sunday morning reading the funny papers and eating a bowl of Cornflakes and bananas. Haha. No. I think that you are quite correct! In contrast, I would imagine Waite to be more of the banana and cornflake eating kind. LOL. Very interesting about the job situation. I think that is what I like about the deck. It is very blunt about things. But then there are times when I do not need bluntness but a bit more tact: I find that the Rider-Waite provides this. C

VGimlet	14 Feb 2004
I'm finding the Thoth to be a much more agressive deck than the RWS also. I can see the cross-over between the RWS and Thoth, however I almost feel as though the two decks have different dynamics in card meanings from ace to 10. The RWS seems to proceed in a very orderly manner, like stairs, (2-10) from lower energy to higher, from beginning of the process to the end. (I'm excepting the aces though) The Thoth on the other hand, seems to have little different focus, almost like the energy/power stays the same, or even slightly decreases in intensity from ace to 10, but the control of the energy increases. And of course the more control you have, the less energy you need. I'm not sure if I'm making sense, or if it's just really late, and my brain is slightly crunchy around the edges. :P I think Crowley would just be getting in from a late night while Waite was eating his cornflakes.

Centaur	14 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by VGimlet The Thoth on the other hand, seems to have little different focus, almost like the energy/power stays the same, or even slightly decreases in intensity from ace to 10, but the control of the energy increases. And of course the more control you have, the less energy you need. I'm not sure if I'm making sense, or if it's just really late, and my brain is slightly crunchy around the edges. :P I think Crowley would just be getting in from a late night while Waite was eating his cornflakes. I don't think you have crunchy-brain syndrome! Infact, I thought you explained that really well. It is like there is a decrease in intensity and an increase of control from Ace to Ten. But hey, I have just woken up, so maybe I have crunchy-brain syndrome too. Hehe. C

tigerlily 6563	14 Feb 2004
I have used only the thoth and RW decks and have found that thoth goes very deep which I found, at times when first learning them hard to understand. I found the RW deck easier to understand as they seemed to be more on a practical (material) level and often another perspective.

crystal cove	14 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by FourLeafClover "Agressive" is a good word for the Thoth deck. For the longest time after I got it, I was afraid to use it for readings because what if I turned up "ruin" or "cruelty" or "failure"? Even worse, what if one of those showed up in somebody ELSE's reading? How would I explain that? I love my Thoth deck, it was my first, but I'll be honest, I pay little mind to the words on the bottom of the cards because they do not convey the entire meaning. These words are not meant to be taken literally. Two of the three cards you mentioned here are sword cards, which represent the mind. Things that are "negative" that deal with the mind is usually fear when you get right down to it. Therefore, these cards do not predict immenent doom, but FEAR of Defeat, and Failure. The "failure" card in the Thoth deck is actually a disk(pentacle, coin) card; however it is the 7. Seven in numerology is analysis, understanding, knowledge, awareness, meditating.....all activities with the MIND. Disks are the material cards in the deck. Together they can mean fear of success....or of failure, or of losing what you have depending on the card position and the surrounding cards. In my opinion, they chose to use the negative meaning of the card, I happen to generally see it as a positive card, but there you have it.....the downside to having a one word definition on a card and negative imagery to go with it. I don't see any card as all good, or all bad...but that's me. For the "Cruelty" card, or the 9 of swords, it represents the self critical, or self judging mind. The 9 in numerology means selflessness, humanitarianism, and creative expression and the end of the cycle. The negative part of self judging and critiquing is the ultimate in cruelty to oneself, is it not? Again, this is only the negative interpretation of it, but unfortunately that's what value the Thoth and RW and their clones give to swords. If you want a book that cuts through the "scariness" of the sword cards in the Thoth deck, I highly recommend, "The Tarot Handbook" by Angeles Arrien. I've never seen the sword cards in the same way since.

crystal cove	14 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Triquetra They certainly are more aggressive cards than the RWS. Instead of sort of easing you into the situation, they tend to slam it in your face, and force you to deal with the situation. Exactly. "real" and "truth" are two words I'd use to decribe this deck......the last one on the "fluffy bunny" list.

Centaur	14 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by twenty~one I love my Thoth deck, it was my first, but I'll be honest, I pay little mind to the words on the bottom of the cards because they do not convey the entire meaning. These words are not meant to be taken literally. Two of the three cards you mentioned here are sword cards, which represent the mind. Things that are "negative" that deal with the mind is usually fear when you get right down to it. Therefore, these cards do not predict immenent doom, but FEAR of Defeat, and Failure. I agree with what you say. I too do not feel that the words on the bottom of the cards completely convey the meaning of a particular card. But they do contribute to that meaning. What I find quite funny is the choice of dramatic words, such as 'cruelty', or 'failure'. I think this is why I find it amusing when these words show up in a reading on a light-hearted topic. It makes it all very serious and dramatic. Ofcourse, I do not take these literally to the extent that they mean something to the extreme. I think Crowley needed to lighten up a little. LOL. C

crystal cove	14 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Centaur I agree with what you say. I too do not feel that the words on the bottom of the cards completely convey the meaning of a particular card. But they do contribute to that meaning. What I find quite funny is the choice of dramatic words, such as 'cruelty', or 'failure'. I think this is why I find it amusing when these words show up in a reading on a light-hearted topic. It makes it all very serious and dramatic. Ofcourse, I do not take these literally to the extent that they mean something to the extreme. I think Crowley needed to lighten up a little. LOL. C I think he did too. :) I do also agree that the words contribute to the meaning. The only problem I have is that it is just that.....ONE meaning when each card can potentially have so many. Misleading, especially to a novice.

Centaur	14 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by twenty~one I do also agree that the words contribute to the meaning. The only problem I have is that it is just that.....ONE meaning when each card can potentially have so many. Misleading, especially to a novice. Yes! Exactly! I also think that focussing on that one word too much can slew and perhaps block other intuitive ideas when a card is pulled. I try to focus more on the card itself. I wonder how Crowley decided which words to use. C

Rusty Neon	14 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Centaur I wonder how Crowley decided which words to use. Most of the Crowley Thoth deck keywords for the pip cards come straight out of, or are close variants of, the card titles given by Order of the Golden Dawn in that Order's works on the tarot.

Centaur	14 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Rusty Neon Most of the Crowley Thoth deck keywords for the pip cards come straight out of, or a close variants of, the card titles given by Order of the Golden Dawn in that Order's works on the tarot. I see. Thanks for clearing that up. I had images of the Crowled one sat deciding which words sounded more dramatic. Hehe. C

Rusty Neon	14 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Centaur I see. Thanks for clearing that up. I had images of the Crowled one sat deciding which words sounded more dramatic. Hehe. C Yep, if anyone sat down, deciding which words sounded more dramatic, it was Mathers of the Order of the Golden Dawn.

Centaur	14 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Rusty Neon Yep, if anyone sat down, deciding which words sounded more dramatic, it was Mathers of the Order of the Golden Dawn. LOL. That sounds even more serious! To use a modern analogy, I would imagine that Crowley would be a bit like the resident office-bitch whilst Waite would have been more the approachable sort. Hell, I should lay off Crowley. I would love to have gone for a drink with him. Drinks with Crowley and dinner with Waite. Haha. C

Umbrae	14 Feb 2004
Here we go again: Quote: Originally posted by AmounrA RWs is a quazi- tarot because of its 'illustrated' suit cards. This is not true tarot, which does not have 'illustrated' suits. Thoth is a true Tarot deck and keeps faith with its principles. First off – English school of Tarot = Illustrated Pips. Continental school of Tarot = Un-illustrated Pips. (No, I did not coin these terms or definitions btw…). Is one real and the other fake? No…just a variance of opinion. Can either deck be more blunt or are we practicing anthropomorphism with paper and ink? Or are we describing our relationship with either or both decks? Perhaps the followers of the Thoth, tend to have a different belief system that gives them a more namby-pamby reading from the RWS? Deck or reader? Reader, or relationship to the readers spiritual growth, path, and the part the Tarot plays IN that life? Now that is the question…

ros	14 Feb 2004
I find after looking at the Thoth & my life, I'm more open to be more aggressive at the moment. I don't care for this action of personality BUT I find at this time in my life it is about time I'm more this way. I have strong personalities in my life, & after I analyze our relationship I find they are just more outspoken than I. So Thoth is another part of my life showing me to be out there, & say it as it is. Also I feel it is where your at with your understanding of life, maturity & spirituality. What we want to understand in life. Thoth bothered me but now I find the meanings help put the edges on the RWS.Mabee we could say Thoth & RWS resembles The Circle in the Square. Also it is what we do with our thoughts.

Rusty Neon	14 Feb 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Centaur I think that is what I like about the deck. It is very blunt about things. But then there are times when I do not need bluntness but a bit more tact: I find that the Rider-Waite provides this. Since the basic divinatory meanings for the pip cards of the RWS deck and the Thoth deck arise from the Golden Dawn, it may be the bluntness of the Thoth deck arises from the GD-related keywords printed on the cards. It's natural, in the face of the keyword Failure, to read the Thoth 7 of Disks as something negative like failure, or fear of failure, although in theory there is no reason why the card can't be read more positively, like patience. In contrast, the corresponding card in the RWS deck, the 7 of Pentacle, can be interpreted as being something negative like failure or fear of failure, while, in the absence of the printed keywords, it could, without bending, be readily interpreted as something more positive, like patience.

The Rws & Thoth thread was originally posted on 09 Feb 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.