Ancient Suits/Talismans

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 22 Mar 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Dark Inquisitor	22 Mar 2004
I came across something very interesting in my reading of an old book on Stonehenge last night . It was referring to a mysterious bunch of goddess worshippers who ruled Ireland from 1897 BC to 1700 BC called the Tuatha De Danann . Here is the quote, from Stonehenge of the Kings by Patrick Crampton: "Tuatha De Danann had four talismans : the Great Fal- the stone penis of Ireland at Tara , which shrieked under the king of Ireland ; the spear of Lug against which no victory could be won; the sword of King Nuadu , which no one escaped when it was drawn from its scabbard; and the cauldron of Dagda from which no one went away unsatisfied." If stones = pentacles- earth , spears =wands , and cauldrons =cups, it is remarkably like the suits of the tarot . It reminds me of the Haindl suits as well. Interesting to think the archetypes of the suits have been around for so long . Tarotphelia

DeLani	22 Mar 2004
There is also a Hindu god - can't remember the name just now (I think it starts with an A) - that holds a cup, a staff, a sword, and a chakram (or discus). The idea of 4 sacred tools to correspond to the 4 directions is very common in the ancient old world - there used to be a lot of information exchange, so you can sometimes see the intermingling of influences. I think even Native Americans have 4 sacred things that correspond to the 4 directions, but they are different than the old world system.

Imagemaker	22 Mar 2004
I've seen pictures of Kali with a pitchfork-wand looking thing, a sabre, a cup, but the 4th item is a severed head . . . well, maybe that's pentacle-like :D (related to bodies!)

Ilithiya	22 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by DeLani There is also a Hindu god - can't remember the name just now (I think it starts with an A) - that holds a cup, a staff, a sword, and a chakram (or discus). That's Shiva, I think. I wish I could remember the correct attributes of the arms and the items, but that's escaping me at the moment. Illy

Alissa	22 Mar 2004
Kali is seen with the attributes ascribed to her above. Siva, as Lord Nataraja, is most often seen with four arms, showing : the back right hand holds an hour glass shaped drum or damaru. The drum represents the rhythmic sound to which Nataraja dances and ceaselessly recreates the universe. The front right hand is in the abhaya-mudra (the "fear not" gesture, made by holding the palm outward. The back left hand carries agni (fire) in a vessel or in his hand. The flames represent the destructive energy with which Nataraja dances at the end of each cosmic age, cleansing sins and removing illusion. The front left hand is across the chest in the gahahasta (elephant trunk) pose, with the wrist limp and the fingers pointed downward toward the uplifted foot. This upraised foot symbolizes eternal bliss, and his hand position points us to this secret. However, there are *many* depictions of the Hindu pantheon that will vary the items and/or mudras seen in the God/desses hands, according to other attributes ascribed. Large chunks taken from the website : http://www.lotussculpture.com/nataraja1.htm[/font]

amyel	22 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Tarotphelia I came across something very interesting in my reading of an old book on Stonehenge last night . It was referring to a mysterious bunch of goddess worshippers who ruled Ireland from 1897 BC to 1700 BC called the Tuatha De Danann . Here is the quote, from Stonehenge of the Kings by Patrick Crampton: "Tuatha De Danann had four talismans : the Great Fal- the stone penis of Ireland at Tara , which shrieked under the king of Ireland ; the spear of Lug against which no victory could be won; the sword of King Nuadu , which no one escaped when it was drawn from its scabbard; and the cauldron of Dagda from which no one went away unsatisfied." If stones = pentacles- earth , spears =wands , and cauldrons =cups, it is remarkably like the suits of the tarot . It reminds me of the Haindl suits as well. Interesting to think the archetypes of the suits have been around for so long . Tarotphelia This sounds remarkably like a book I just finished reading in which this topic appeared and was threaded throughout. It is called 'Seduced by Moonlight" and is part of (currently) triology by Laurell K. Hamilton. The book is new-ish and I don't want to say much more in case any one else is reading it. But in thsi book, the main characetres speak specifically of Tuatha De Danann, and she was also referred to as Danu or Dana. The cauldron appeared and there was a sword "mortal dread" the author referred to it as, which reminds me of the sword of King Nuadu. Hmmmmm.....very interesting....

Cerulean	22 Mar 2004
and I was laughing with the cultural anthropology teacher who taught on the subject "Celts in Ireland" and in one wry moment said, "I used to teach a course where we looked at some of the symbols of the followers of Danu and please, I will NOT mention or get into any comparison with the Hindu pantheon of goddesses," Here's small definition of the term Tuatha de Dananan: http://www.pantheon.org/articles/d/danu.html He was explaining in his way the fascinating correspondences of earth-based or iron-age or ancient cultures and goddess worship could definitely take more time than he had to spend on the subject. More than a few times in some of the straighter Renaissance history courses, when the subject of the Christian Mary as Madonna in painting came up and the beginnings of the popular appearance in the Cathedral art, people would bring up comparative symbology from other ancient cultures. A teacher would gently steer the conversation away when someone also brought up "and in other older religions or cultures, a similar deification of ___" or "sacred goddess worship..." The only teacher who encouraged it from my night courses teaches about sacred symbology in art history from a Jungian perspective. I definitely have to enroll in more of these style courses over time! Mari H.

Shesawolf	26 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by DeLani I think even Native Americans have 4 sacred things that correspond to the 4 directions... From what I know (and I've studied more than some, less than others) the Native Americans didn't use "tools" to represent the 4 directions.. they used totem animals. One example, as explained in "Earth Medicine" by Kenneth Meadows, is: Air - The Butterfly Water - The Frog Earth - The Turtle Fire - The Hawk

HudsonGray	26 Mar 2004
One of the books by Diane Duane in the Young Wizard series (better than Harry Potter in some ways!) used the Tuatha De Danann as a major plot line & these symbols as pivotal points in the story (they had to be re-energised to save the land). I guess the Tuatha came BEFORE the Picts & the Celts? I heard that very little is known about them.

The Ancient Suits/Talismans thread was originally posted on 22 Mar 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.