Good deck & books where Justice is 8?
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 20 Mar 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| Cerulean |
20 Mar 2004 |
|
I've been hearing delight at old style decks where Justice is eight and Strength is 11 but disappointment at lack of resources to explain how to read with such decks.. Perhaps in the collections of wonderful people here, we can share titles of good book & decks that will assist in this.
The Visconti Gold book and deck set I feel is light on history--it gives enough to tell the reader interested in using the deck some sources to start. To me is the first English language book that explains reading that from the Italian point of view where Justice is eight and Strength is 11 and discusses the majors AND minors and associated meanings from that style of reading.
Perhaps others with decks from Brian Williams, Robert Place or booklets with English translations would gladly recommend their favorites that has good books or booklets with pip meanings or descriptions?
|
| cartarum |
20 Mar 2004 |
|
the nature of real knowledge is that it hides in two places; in a vault in some rich castle or right in front of your nose instead of looking for the popular tarot look for the obscure tarot
|
| Rusty Neon |
20 Mar 2004 |
|
Originally posted by Mari_Hoshizaki
Perhaps others with decks from Brian Williams, Robert Place or booklets with English translations would gladly recommend their favorites that has good books or booklets with pip meanings or descriptions?
Mari ... If you're interested in applying number and suit, there's not much around in English with the exception of Gail Fairfield's book which is tied more to RWS numerology. Thus, you may have to improvise on your own.
If you want to use number + suit + design of the pips of the specific (non-Marseilles) deck, you'll have to really improvise on your own. You may wish to check various divinatory meaning assignment methodology posts in the H&I forum. They're in the context of the Marseilles deck, but you can adapt those ideas.
If you want to use traditional card meanings, perhaps use Etteilla School meanings which are listed for convenience of reference on Jim Revak's site. Since you mentioned booklets, hopefully some of the others on the list can pass along some of their favourite LWB traditional card meanings for the pips.
You mentioned pips for decks where Justice is 8. Being cheeky, that would cover Crowley's Thoth deck and the meanings given by Crowley in _Book of Thoth_ :), but that's probably not what you had in mind.
|
| Moonbow* |
20 Mar 2004 |
|
Mari
The Visconti Gold deck and book is on my wishlist (one day!) - in the meantime, I appreciate what you are trying to do. I need more information on decks where Justice is 8, and how to read with them, as you said.
Rusty - I wil l start a new thread - I need to know more about Etteilla ( other than Alliette!)
|
| Cerulean |
20 Mar 2004 |
|
I'm sorry, I'm not being clear! I took a 'beginner's mind' to this question and what I meant is do people have favorite deck sets with booklets or books associated where Justice is eight and Strength is 11?
I was thinking of this after I finished my last Saturday morning class. I took only one of my Soprafino decks with a collection of little white papers from these various Italian and a few other publishers: Solloene, Il Menghello, De Vecchi, Dal Negro, Lo Scarabeo and U.S. Games. I sat at a cafe after class and checked to see if there was a parallel between such publishers.
The beautiful Soprafino deck alone, the Di Gumppenberg 1835-1845 (depending on the publisher), is Victorian in decor and while lovely, never has 'spoken' to me. I soon switched to booklet and book comparisons and then pulled out my other reading favorites.
In the long view, Stuart Kaplan's descriptions in the U.S. Games' Encyclopedia of the Tarot or his various Visconti decks has a general agreement with information written by Giordano Berti in the Visconti Gold book and deck.
However if you pulled the meanings from Il Menghello and De Vecchi--let say on the same deck, the historic engraved Dotti-- what can be read between the two publishers differ. This can be different or obscure to the English reader picking out keywords and seeing the observations differ. So these sets I might not recommend to beginners to learn meanings if they were relying on picking out keyword meanings from Italian only decks.
The deck sets where the Italian is translated into readable English and has the Justice is 8/Strength or Force is 11 include reproductions from authors such as Luigi Scapini, Giorgio Taviglione, Amerigo Folchi and some Lo Scarabeo titles
One or two English titles that I found the Justice is eight is Brian William's Renaissance Tarot and the Minchiate. He combines meaning from various traditions, though, including RWS meanings in the Renaissance Tarot.
And actually I counted among the authors that I know of, but I do not know if they are all in print (I'll add the titles as I can):
Sasha Fenton
Gareth Knight
These two above do have decks associated with their names, although Sasha Fenton has had two sets of tarot at least (Prediction was an old one from the Aquarian Press) and Gareth Knight's deck is sold separately from his books.
I thank the kindness of the replies and the different slants to this question. My learning curve on my Visconti and Di Gumppenberg and Dotti decks took some time and I used all the help I could get from the above...so I truly sympathize as people do ask for help.
My reading favorites are the Di Gumppenberg 1806, Dotti 1865 and Visconti--Dal Negro and Visconti Gold. They all beckon me now. But I am a slow learner and I've been working the last six years on learning about Italian, Renaissance and tarot topics...
|
| MeeWah |
21 Mar 2004 |
|
Mari: I do not know if this would quite address your query, but the Nigel Jackson Tarot has 8-Justice & 11-Strength; also the Wands as Air & Swords as Fire.
The cards are larger than standard size & the book is sized the same as the deck. The deck is boxed & both deck & book are in a slipcase; very handy for transporting.
Offhand, I think Jackson's deck is based on his view of a relationship between Pythagorean numerology & the archetypal Tarot symbols. The artwork appears to be of watercolour & reminiscent of the medieval style of the Marseilles.
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/nigel-jackson/
http://www.learntarot.com/njdesc.htm
|
| BlueLotus |
21 Mar 2004 |
|
Well, Mari, I have rummaged through my tarot deck collection and found another tarot deck/book set that has Strength as #11, and Justice - here called balance- as # 8.
is an explicitly beautiful deck, and the accompanying hefty book goes into much detail for each card.
The packaging is compact but the card stock is rather thin, though not flimsy.
I find this deck unique, and the images are quite original. The deck consists of 3 lover cards.
For more information you can go Here to see images of this deck and/or e mail its creator Stevee Postman regarding your inquiry.
|
| Rusty Neon |
21 Mar 2004 |
|
Originally posted by Mari_Hoshizaki
However if you pulled the meanings from Il Menghello and De Vecchi--let say on the same deck, the historic engraved Dotti-- what can be read between the two publishers differ. This can be different or obscure to the English reader picking out keywords and seeing the observations differ. So these sets I might not recommend to beginners to learn meanings if they were relying on picking out keyword meanings from Italian only decks.
The keywords that the various publishers incorporate into the booklets that accompany their decks are likely drawn from different fortune-telling keyword lists -- rather than being developed from and geared to the _specific_ non-scenic details of the pip cards of the _specific_ deck that the booklet accompanies. Thus, I wouldn't get too hung up about any "differences" between booklets. As well, as you probably know by now, those traditional fortune-telling meanings are not based on number + suit, nor based on any study of the specific non-scenic details of the pip cards. If you feel you have to use fortune-telling meanings with antique tarot decks (rather than number + suit or number + suit + non-scenic details), then you may wish to find the one particular list of fortune-telling meanings (e.g., Etteilla School meanings or meanings from one book or booklet) that most appeals to you and stick to it for use with all of your antique tarot decks.
|
| Nevada |
21 Mar 2004 |
|
The Goddess Tarot, though in many ways modeled after RWS, has VIII as Justice and XI as Strength. I use The Goddess Tarot Workbook by Kris Waldherr, and find it quite helpful. I especially like the stories she provides for each card.
I have the Voyager Tarot, which has VIII Balance and XI Strength, as well as the book titled, Voyager Tarot: Way of the Great Oracle by James Wanless, Ph.D.
The Crowley-Thoth Tarot, as you're probably already aware, has VIII Adjustment (Justice) and XI Lust (Strength). My two favorite books that I use with this deck are Gerd Ziegler's Tarot: Mirror of the Soul and Keywords for the Crowley Tarot by Hajo Banzhaf and Brigitte Theler. I also have The Book of Thoth by Alistair Crowley, but find it a bit too esoteric for me.
Unfortunately I don't know of any general Tarot books (not for specific decks) that address the VIII Justice and XI Strength configuration.
Nevada
|
| MeeWah |
21 Mar 2004 |
|
Joseph Maxwell's "The Tarot" discusses the numerology through-out the book & within the chapters given to the individual cards. Also refers to card symbolism, which I think is Marseilles based on the translator's notes on card titles as "Le Bateleur" & the "Popess" in French.
He has Justice as 8, Strength as 11.
|
| Cerulean |
21 Mar 2004 |
|
and Rusty, both your posts mentioning the Etteilla reminded me of the James Revak's Villa Revak site where he does list the differing traditions that include Etteilla and Mather's in an interesting comparison.
http://www.villarevak.org/td/td_1.htm
The meanings do give some suggestions to start developing ideas.*
*As per Rusty Neon's note below, the Mathers meanings are old fortune-telling meanings that predate the Golden Dawn. He gives a link to Golden Dawn meanings for comparison.
Thanks!
Mari H.
|
| Rusty Neon |
21 Mar 2004 |
|
Revak's compendium compares Etteilla, Mathers and Waite divinatory meanings (DMs). Although Mathers was one of the chief people in the Order of the Golden Dawn, the DMs attributed to Mathers in Revak's compendium are from a Mathers book that pre-dates his OGD days and are a listing of fortune-telling meanings, rather than OGD DMs. As for the OGD meanings, they're not on Revak's site.
You can find the OGD meanings for the minor arcana is the OGD's manuscript _Book T_.
http://www.private.org.il/GD/Book-T.html
|
The Good deck & books where Justice is 8? thread was originally posted on 20 Mar 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.
|
