simple element interactions

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 05 Mar 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Imagemaker	05 Mar 2004
I'd like to add the angle of using elements and their interactions to my intuitive readings of spreads. But to start, I want to work at the simple level of how two or three cards' elements affect each other, and how the elements in a court card work. Llike the page of swords is "air IN earth"? right? and the queen of cups is double water-force? and what are the implications of that? At a basic level, the elements help me work with simple images or symbols on the cards and see how they trigger insights. Fr example, say I draw an earth card (any pentacle) and a water card (any cup). This only makes me think of mud--so the two cards' meanings are muddied? But perhaps the rank (number) of the pentacle card matters, so does a low-numbered cup add just a little water--making the two cards into clay and thus stronger building material. And I wonder if a low-rank cup adds water to a high-rank wand (fire) and makes steam--adding anger or energy to a two-card pair. But does a high-numbered cup put out the fire of a low-numbered wand? Does any of this make sense? Some of the combinations come through loud and clear in a reading and some just confuse me totally. Wandering amid the elements, dazed and staggering--help!

Alissa	05 Mar 2004
I think you're on to something brilliant! Keep talking! It makes perfect sense to me, but is still something I've never considered before on my own. Did you have some card combinations jumping to mind as examples to share?? Hmmm, of course, this would also have to adapt itself to each person's use of the elements as associated with Suits. I, myself, am from the freaky school of thought that pairs Wands with Air, and Swords with Fire. My combinations would necessitate quite a different way of using the same analogies, but could still be fabulous.... This is very interesting to me, Imagemaker! I hope you have more to add....

ros	05 Mar 2004
I have explained the elements this way but never put the knowledge to cards & their number. I understand what you're saying & will be watching for more insight on this thread. Good idea!

Imagemaker	05 Mar 2004
Great! I do use the swords/air assignment, but as long as you're consistent with swords/fire, the same ideas would surely apply. I'll use the elements as examples first, instead of the suits, just to stay clear as possible I'll also stay away from court cards for a bit and give an example. Say I have a 2-card spread for Situation/Challenge. I draw 7 of fire and 2 of air (7 Wands and 2 Swords). Using the elements, I'd ask: how does the air affect the fire, and vice versa. In doing the reading, I would consider: Does the (position) challenge of air increase the (situation) heat of the battle (being a low-numbered air card)? And I could consider: Is my choice or indecision of the 2 Swords the crux of the challenge as to whether the (situation) battle will end well or ill? (This is VERY hard to write out!!) I see the elements as another very useful layer of meaning to the cards drawn. Feedback, please! Perhaps someone could present another 2-card example and we can go through it to see what occurs.

Alissa	05 Mar 2004
Or, if the air card were reversed, it could indicate the air is dying out, the fire is running out of a fuel source to keep it going.... Water and air... bubbles? Water and earth... mud, I agree. Water and fire.... hisssssss. Could douse the flame. Fire and earth... dirt will put out a fire. But, wood, is a fuel for fire. Fire and air... like we said. Air and earth... the trees will sway in a heavy wind. Air will also remove topsoil, if destructive. edited to add : And, as I hit enter, I look outside and see the snow, still falling, bowing the trees' limbs. Many break beneath the weight of the water. Destructive again? And yet, what in our earth can be sustained without water?

Imagemaker	05 Mar 2004
Yes, you've got it! Now, in your snow example, would the number of the water card be higher in that case? The water having more strength? So a high numbered water card has more "force" and power? I think there's a useful angle to all this and don't know that "structuring" it is totally necessary with the rank of the cards. Each element has such a range of conditions to consider, though. And numbers are such a part of tarot. I'm going for a walk and will ponder . . .

Melissa`	05 Mar 2004
Oh! I love this. I've noticed myself noting the cards which card suit was more present, which wasn't.. then elaborating on that. But this, I would have never thought of something like this.. You're a smart cookie! At the moment I can't think of many variations to add, as I just read the post and need a little more time ;) Yet.. reading your 'mud' associations, my mind keeps pounding me also with terming it 'quicksand' for a water/earth combo or switched as termed 'concrete' .. I'll think about it more and hopefully have something good to add as well! Did I forget to say that I love this idea? heh ~ Melissa

Imagemaker	05 Mar 2004
Air and earth makes me think of pumice. And what if it were a 3-card spread with a fire card added . . .

Melissa`	05 Mar 2004
ooh.. air, earth, fire? lava.. volcano? abrupt explosion, metaphorically speaking possibly? I guess that extreme level would depend on the number in the suit drawn.. hrmmm

ros	05 Mar 2004
How about for a 3 card spread all air elements: Air moves you for as long as it wants & then it lets go. Like a wind storm picking up a tree & moving it 1 mile down the road & then dropping it. The air continues down the path but the trees movement it over. Air is detachment. Too much air would move things & then let them go as if they were never connected.

miss_apples	05 Mar 2004
Well I think this would also apply for people and their different signs in their astrological make up. Me personally I have been dealing with a fire/water condratiction my water moon sign keeps my fire moon sign in check. Maybe we can break this down one element and its interactions one at a time. I will start with water. Water cards when mixed with fire cards: I can sense that this would revolve around some firey emotions or situations that need a little water to help keep them under control. water cards when mixed with earth cards: As you said Image mud. I would think of this as new experiences and things mixing up a bit in ones life. water cards when mixed with air cards: Well I see water and air parallel to eachother. You need oxygen to make water and oxygen is also in the air. So I would take this combo as needing an aide or an aide is coming to help with your situation and finally Water with Water: I definatly see this as an overabundance of all that water has to bring...and since water deals with watery emotions. Id see this as a sign of the querent or someone the querent is dealing with being overly-emotional about a situation.

Ilithiya	05 Mar 2004
I use this principle a lot for several different things... but I do it a bit differently. I've noticed that for myself, the two elements are rarely equal, so there's usually an abundance of one holding a lesser amount of the other in check. Also, it's usually not a case of one extinguishing the other. For example... Water in Fire: Steam - obscuring yet cleansing. Refuge. Fire in Water: Boiling pot - Seething, things "hidden in plain sight" being brought to the surface. Water in Earth: Underground reservoir (can't remember the word). Hidden resources, spiritual prosperity. Earth in Water: Mud, mire. Being overly concerned with any particular subject to where it controls your movements. That's just a few of 'em. At 5 elements paired, that's what, 20? And when they're attributed with their own positive/negative polarity, that's 40 and it just gets worse from there. :D Illy

Macavity	05 Mar 2004
Following the elemental dignity idea with card triplets, here are some more ideas? http://www.supertarot.co.uk/lessons/073card.htm The "visuals" are indeed quite fun! ;) Macavity

Alissa	05 Mar 2004
That's a good link, Macavity! It puts these principles into an organized form. And I totally agree with the author's take that individual cards' meanings must be considered as well, in order to make it truly read well. The Missing Element concept is fascinating too. As for my backyard, three elemental spread : The wind (air) is shaking the snow (water) from the tree branches (earth) and protecting them from damage. Ah, Mother Nature's wisdom. ;)

Star Spirit	05 Mar 2004
This is an interesting thread. I've been thinking of trying more elemental associations myself lately, but I don't really know where to begin or how to do it without making the readins TOO complex. There are some neat ideas here though.

Imagemaker	05 Mar 2004
And to mention how this works with court cards doubles the interactions. As I've read somewhere or other, in each suit, the Page is earth, Knight is fire, Queen is water, King is air. But then how does their element-place work with the suits' element? Queen of cups is double water--she's extra creative and emotional? Knight of Pentacles has his fire "grounded" a bit? The Page of Swords has a spark of intellect? :) How would you interpret which element takes precedence? Anyway, I think this is useful, but I'll need a lot of practice in using it.

Ilithiya	05 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Imagemaker Knight of Pentacles has his fire "grounded" a bit? The Page of Swords has a spark of intellect? :) How would you interpret which element takes precedence? Anyway, I think this is useful, but I'll need a lot of practice in using it. Sounds pretty good... I'd take the suit's element as precedence and then the card's element, just as you did with the Knight of Pentacles. I hadn't really given this much thought myself... thanks for posting that! Illy

Imagemaker	05 Mar 2004
Maybe this approach could really help with the court cards--that would clear up a lot of fog. Moving to spreads bigger than 2 or 3 cards, I guess the effects would be more in the sheer number of fire cards, earth cards, etc--less direct impact from one card to another? What do you all think about the ranking of the pips in this--that an 8 is a lot more fiery than a 2? (taking this into account after the basic meaning of the suit is considered).

ros	05 Mar 2004
When I do larger spreads I put the Majors with the Majors & put the Minor in there elements & I go from there after the initial reading. -how many -what's missing -repeated numbers -out of the 4 elements how is the balance -etc. you can get a lot more out of a readings doing this also.

Ilithiya	05 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Imagemaker Maybe this approach could really help with the court cards--that would clear up a lot of fog. Moving to spreads bigger than 2 or 3 cards, I guess the effects would be more in the sheer number of fire cards, earth cards, etc--less direct impact from one card to another? What do you all think about the ranking of the pips in this--that an 8 is a lot more fiery than a 2? (taking this into account after the basic meaning of the suit is considered). hmmm... I'd say that the rank of pips does increase, but what about the ace? I've always understood it to be the epitome of the suit's element and energy. As for larger spreads, since I prefer groups of cards, it's easier to see how the elemental attributes relate to each group. I work mainly on a 2 axis symmetry - center and four directional groups: Center: Querent; Spirit. North: Home; foundations; Earth. East: School or business; intellect, Air. South: Social; externals, Fire. West: Family; emotional, internals, Water. So, by the way I do it, interpreting two Swords/Fire and a Cups Rev in the North would carry an added message of "more passion and less emotional caterwauling in the home relationship", dependent on and altered by the meanings of the cards themselves. You're really making me stretch my brain... thank you, Imagemaker!! Illy

Imagemaker	05 Mar 2004
Quote: I'd say that the rank of pips does increase, but what about the ace? I've always understood it to be the epitome of the suit's element and energy. I would always take the Ace to be a "big" card in the suit--different from a mere pip--not a one. Your spread looks interesting, another one to put in my journal! And as for brain stretching, the tarot is a real soul/brain/awareness stretcher in so many ways. Coo-ol!

The simple element interactions thread was originally posted on 05 Mar 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.