Tarot and AP/LD

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 07 Mar 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Xalien	07 Mar 2004
Hi all :) I am into lucid dreaming and astral projection for some time now and I am thinking of bringing Tarot (Thoth deck, my favorite) into play as well. Since cards represent abstract "parts" of our consciousness, I was thinking it could really help to use tarot for waking up in dreams or to astral project. :) What are your thoughts about this? Experiences maybe? Thank you :) x.

jmd	07 Mar 2004
Some years ago, I thought of incorporating Tarot scenery in Lucid Dreaming, but decided against it for a variety of reasons. For myself, I do not consider Tarot cards to 'represent abstract "parts" of our consciousness', but rather spiritual regions variously represented. Lucid Dreaming, as distinct from the Imaginative state entered in meditative exercises, seems far more prone to active guidance out of one's personal whims and subject to far more influence from unconscious arousals - at least in my personal experience. This distinction is what lead me against the idea. But then again, I am not a regular Lucid Dreamer, nor do I practice it intentionally. The 'wakeful' control of Lucid Dreaming seems to me a wonderful means to develop active imaginations, and enable those to unfold in various ways to their own accord, remaining mindful that our unconscious 'pressures' easily influence on the unfolding scenery and experiences. With meditative practice, what in contrast seems to unfold is far more at the discretion of spiritual guidance. Of course, and as I said, I do not 'practice' Lucid dreaming, but rather merely enjoy it when it occurs. Astral Projection seems to me to be far more closely connected to the active visualisations obtained from medidative practices, and thus do not link it per se to Lucid Dreaming. Though a flight to regions remote, in the Lucid dream state, is easily feasible, I would prefer the experience entering the Meditative state, for similar reasons mentioned earlier... You bring a very wonderfully fascinating topic, Xalien :)

Centaur	08 Mar 2004
Hi Xalien, Interesting thread. I too am interested in astral-projection and lucid-dreaming, and I think tarot can be incorporated into this. Infact, not too long ago I performed a reading for someone re. why they were finding it so difficult to project. With regards to a specific tarot-card to represent astral-projection, I would have to choose the Chariot. Infact, I think Greer also states that this card, when reversed, from an astral perspective, can represent the spirit-body on its journeys throughout the astral-planes. I tend to think that this card whether reversed or not, is a good symbolic representation of astral-travel. ;) Anyway, as I said, I think that tarot can be used to bring a perspective to the problems one might be experiencing with projection attempts. It can give indications of what might induce a projection, or hinder a projection. I have used it for this purpose and I find it to be very insightful. Perhaps a little interesting astral-test would be to place one of your cards on top of a wardrobe or something, and then attempt to project. If successful, then look to see what the card is. And then when you wake, go check. Ofcourse, it might not always be the case that what you see is what is actually there, due to the thought-sensitive nature of the astral. C

Xalien	08 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd For myself, I do not consider Tarot cards to 'represent abstract "parts" of our consciousness', but rather spiritual regions variously represented. Yes, I agree. Bad choice of words on my part :) I have a booklet (not in english language, though) that proposes a interesting technique of "entering" into the astral plane through a given tarot card. And since cards do represent our own inner spiritual regions of consciousness (lets say The Sun), it would be interested to experience that particular region of our awareness directly, in the astral plane. I kindda like the idea, because my experiences show that Tarot IS in fact much more that's just images/simbolism on paper... regards

Xalien	08 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Centaur Interesting thread. I too am interested in astral-projection and lucid-dreaming, and I think tarot can be incorporated into this. Infact, not too long ago I performed a reading for someone re. why they were finding it so difficult to project. Anyway, as I said, I think that tarot can be used to bring a perspective to the problems one might be experiencing with projection attempts. It can give indications of what might induce a projection, or hinder a projection. I have used it for this purpose and I find it to be very insightful. Hello Centaur yes, tarot certainly can and does help in explaining much about a projector's/dreamer's state. It helped me :). Practice makes perfect :) I think there are many ways to get "closer" to the regions of our awareness that are represented on cards, and astral travel (in dreams on not) is one of the interesting ones (to me)... thank you :) x.

Centaur	08 Mar 2004
Hi Xalien, I agree. I think it is interesting what you say about actually entering a tarot-card on the astral. I agree that it would be fascinating to see the various thought-forms related to the cards and one's subconscious manifest themselves on the astral. Have you had any direct experiences with this? C

Xalien	08 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Centaur Have you had any direct experiences with this? Hey C :) Nope, not yet. I was hoping to get some input on the subject for you guys & gals... :) I remember talking to some friend years ago about this kind of experience. I don't remember details, but it sure was interesting. :)

Centaur	08 Mar 2004
I have recently started meditating on a tarot-card before falling asleep. I hold the image in my head, and I think of the various associations and interpretations. Perhaps on one of these occasions I will 'slip-in' to the astral. Hehe. If I do, I will be sure to let ya know what happens!!! Do you have the book 'Astral Dynamics' by Robert Bruce? C

Xalien	08 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Centaur Perhaps on one of these occasions I will 'slip-in' to the astral. Hehe. If I do, I will be sure to let ya know what happens!!! Do you have the book 'Astral Dynamics' by Robert Bruce? C :) Yes, let me/us know. :) Robert Bruce. Hmm. Doesnt ring a bell. I will take a look at it at amazon.com, tnx! :)

Centaur	08 Mar 2004
I have just sent you a PM with some links re. astral travel texts. Bruce is perhaps one of the most authoritative persons on astral travel... he has done much work in that field. C

lunakasha	08 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Centaur I have recently started meditating on a tarot-card before falling asleep. I hold the image in my head, and I think of the various associations and interpretations. Perhaps on one of these occasions I will 'slip-in' to the astral. Hehe. Hey Centaur..... I have tried this too, usually with one of my Osho Zen cards...they seem to have been made for meditation, don't you agree??? Anyway, I used to pull a card every night just before bedtime and meditate on it, trying to keep the image in my head as I drifted off to sleep...sometimes it actually worked! The problem is, I had difficulty remembering what happened/what I saw in my dreams when I woke up! I was a little frustrated....but I can tell you that, on the nights I did this, I slept like a baby!!! I have never tried A/P, Xalien, but it sounds very interesting! From what I have read here, it does sound like tarot cards might be useful in that respect....thanks for the discussion! :D Luna

Xalien	09 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Centaur I have just sent you a PM with some links re. astral travel texts. C Yep, tnx C. I replied you, too. :)

Xalien	09 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by lunakasha I have never tried A/P, Xalien, but it sounds very interesting! From what I have read here, it does sound like tarot cards might be useful in that respect....thanks for the discussion! lunakasha, check link below for a free course on astral travel. I have some experiences on the subject on AP, have had several lucid dreams so far... it is all very interesting to me too... Link: http://www.mysticweb.org/ :)

Centaur	09 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by lunakasha [b] I have tried this too, usually with one of my Osho Zen cards...they seem to have been made for meditation, don't you agree??? Anyway, I used to pull a card every night just before bedtime and meditate on it, trying to keep the image in my head as I drifted off to sleep...sometimes it actually worked! The problem is, I had difficulty remembering what happened/what I saw in my dreams when I woke up! I was a little frustrated....but I can tell you that, on the nights I did this, I slept like a baby!!! Hi Luna, I agree with you re. the Osho Zen... they seem particularly well suited to meditation. I don't own them though, damnit! Haha. It is interesting what you say about forgetting what happened... it can be very frustrating. Do you remember bits of what happened? Did you actually enter the tarot-card scene? I have read somewhere that a successful astral projection can occur with no memory of it ever occuring, due to something known as the mind-split (kind of technical)... and that the projections we are most likely to remember are those that are shortest. Interesting... Sometimes when I meditate, I am shown specific tarot-cards... they sort of just pop into my head. C ;)

lunakasha	09 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Centaur It is interesting what you say about forgetting what happened... it can be very frustrating. Do you remember bits of what happened? Did you actually enter the tarot-card scene? I have read somewhere that a successful astral projection can occur with no memory of it ever occuring, due to something known as the mind-split (kind of technical)... and that the projections we are most likely to remember are those that are shortest. Hi Centaur! What happened is that I meditated on a specific card for about 5-10 minutes, and tried to absorb every detail into my brain....then when I turned out the lights and closed my eyes, I was able to still visualize the scene and, yes, I did enter into it, which was VERY cool!!! This is something, BTW, that has never come easily to me, being able to visualize things in my head....but as I continue working at it, it's getting easier! Now, the problem is that I remember entering the scene (which I believe was the Postponement card from Osho Zen), but have no idea what happened in the end!!!! The card shows a woman staring out over a field and looking at lush, blue skies and purple mountains....but she is standing "outside" looking into a frame...she is trying to attain this beauty and bring it into her life, but unsure how to proceed. This woman and her world are in black-and-white...dull and lifeless....she sees what she wants in front of her but is afraid to go after it...so she sits and waits....postponement, or as I like to think of it, procrastination.... Anyway, that is all I remember...but like I said before, it was a great way to drift off into sleep, and I did feel well-rested the next morning, so it must have been a positive experience! :) Luna PS: Thanks for the link, Xalien...I will have to go check it out! :D

Centaur	09 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by lunakasha Anyway, that is all I remember...but like I said before, it was a great way to drift off into sleep, and I did feel well-rested the next morning, so it must have been a positive experience! Excellent... do you try it often? Oh, here is another link with some excellent resources and downloads re. astral travel. www.astralpulse.com ;) C

Cerulean	09 Mar 2004
But the deck wasn't about anything I was studying at all. However it is a deck with an alternative storyline, called Tarot of the Secrets from Lo Scarabeo. The dream had me studying an ace in it with a stone that looks like some iron age culture carved drawings or beasties in it. I'm taking a cultural anthropology class and we were studying iron age celtic myth items, but the Tarot of the Secrets isn't about celtic mythology at all...still it mixes fictional and different time periods. However, I did remember one evening when my husband and friend were playing an electronic game as we waited for a movie and ate dessert at a diner. I had the Secrets Tarot and was playing with spreads and storylines for fun...that was the last time I used it. I have a 1997 version, when Lo Scarabeo just starting doing little white books and an older design on the box. Anyway, thinking about the storylines in this deck and some other related thoughts inspired me to consider a creative fiction class in a few weeks. Maybe not related?

lunakasha	09 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Centaur Excellent... do you try it often? Actually, not as often as I would like to, C! I had been in the habit of doing this every night, as a bedtime ritual, and it was wonderful...I was sleeping so well, the meditation exercise really helped me to relax, and I usually woke up feeling really *good*, with some very faint memories of nice dreams still lingering....then quickly forgotten. That was the only downside for me, not being able to recall the dreams....but it was still a very beneficial experience....why I stopped doing it is the BIG question for me! :P I am thinking that I need to make this a priority again.... maybe I will try it with some different decks, just for variety.... Any suggestions (other than Osho Zen)??? Thanks! :D Luna

Centaur	10 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Mari_Hoshizaki But the deck wasn't about anything I was studying at all. However it is a deck with an alternative storyline, called Tarot of the Secrets from Lo Scarabeo. I have this deck also. Excellent deck, and I can see why the imagery might spark off such a vivid dream experience. Quote: Originally posted by lunakasha I am thinking that I need to make this a priority again.... maybe I will try it with some different decks, just for variety.... Any suggestions (other than Osho Zen)??? Thanks! I think any deck which feels rich in imagery would be good. I think the Thoth would be excellent to use. Something which you feel connects in a spiritual way. C

lunakasha	10 Mar 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Centaur I think any deck which feels rich in imagery would be good. I think the Thoth would be excellent to use. Something which you feel connects in a spiritual way. Hmmmm....not so sure about the Thoth....I have not been able to connect very well to this deck, some of the images are kinda freaky :eek: But it may be worth a try....I was thinking about trying one of my newer decks, perhaps the Crystal or the Merryday? How about the Navigators??? Yeah, I am sure I would have some very interesting dreams after using those images! I will definitely keep you posted...thanks! :D Luna

tmgrl2	10 Mar 2004
Hi....haven't thought about Lucid Dreaming in years. When I used to use color...twenty years ago, at least...I also was into dream journaling and Lucid Dreaming...There was a book on Lucid Dreaming at the time...I was doing all the exercises...I would hold a thought in my head as I fell asleep...and along with that, it is suggested that you look for your own hands in the dream. Then when you see them, you get this big AHA and say "I am dreaming and I KNOW it..." I was actually doing this...had some weird experiences. Once you find your hands, you look outward and direct the dream...go where you wish...I couldn't hold the fact that I was dreaming and knew it for very long, but it is quite eerie....I drifted away from journaling and color work.... But I do remember, using a Lucid Dream to confront something that was hidden in a closet in an old house that I would dream of ....I would go through the house and open doors and I knew there was some kind of beast waiting for me behind one....as suggested, one night, when I had the dream, I ran to the door with the beast , threw it open and hugged it...never had the dream again....don't know what this all means...but ...it's on this thread. AP not really....except when I have been under anesthesia and my body was out and I drifted above the nurses and doctors...I also heard them saying they couldn't revive me. Later I told them I heard and saw all of this...they were very quiet. terri

Centaur	10 Mar 2004
Lunakasha, perhaps the Thoth would not be such a good idea for you then! LOL! I just think that the imagery in the deck is hugely powerful, and I think I could almost swim in some of the artwork. For that reason, I think that in my case, they would serve as very powerful tools by which to meditate and project. I agree with what you say re. the MerryDay... that would provoke very interesting dreams I think! Ha! How about the Hello Tarot Deck (the one based on Hello Kitty)... that would be NIGHTMARISH! Tmgrl, thanks for sharing that! I hope that you are all OK and fine after your NDE... that must have been a tremendously frightening experience. With regards to what you said re. confronting a fear using lucid dreaming, I think that it might be interesting to see if one could sort of meld tarot into that also... for instance, meditate on a tarot-card in order to try to 'feel' some of the qualities of that card, and thus when one enters the lucid-dream state, take on those qualities. Interesting. C

The Tarot and AP/LD thread was originally posted on 07 Mar 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.