Degree in Tarot?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 05 Apr 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

tmgrl2	05 Apr 2004
While surfing the net I found several schools offering degrees in Tarot...am enclosing link from one in New York City... I'm mostly curious, if anyone wishes to share, what your opinions are on getting a degree? whether one needs one? Very few sites and even books mention this wonderful AT of ours...as far as I'm concerned, between my literature, my readings and feedback and study on AT.... I could get all I need... Welcoming input....Thanks... terri Here's the link: http://www.tarotschool.com/Guidelines.html

Astra	05 Apr 2004
It's good for a giggle, at least. My guess is that the reason AT isn't mentioned on sites like this is that it promotes self-study and a broad-ranging definition of Tarot that would tend to keep students from thinking that paying for a course was the way to go. If you're trying to make money selling courses, then your primary intent is to convince people that they need to take them - and that they will be useful, if not necessary, to their continued development. Of course, for some people this type of structure tends to be the best way for them to learn - but I have my doubts as to whether it makes any difference at all in how good a Tarot reader they end up being.

Nevada	05 Apr 2004
I looked at the link. This course seems steep to me - $495 to learn the Rider-Waite Tarot, and in addition they want you to follow a rather fussy (many publishers are less fussy) format for submitting your written exercises, you can't submit them by email, so you'll pay for printing and postage, and THEN they will probably expect you to pay the phone bill for several one hour telephone sessions. Yikes! I don't want to sound discouraging (yeah :rolleyes: ) and I'm sorry if I'm being a bit of a downer here. I've never taken a Tarot course, and for all I know this is a wonderful course, but the above mentioned items stood out for me, and if it were me looking for a course, I think I'd keep looking. Nevada

Majecot	05 Apr 2004
Ha!! Who would want that when we can do it for free here... :) AT degree in tarot.. no certificate or fee necessary.

tmgrl2	05 Apr 2004
All my sentiments, exactly...I do believe I can learn everything I need here at AT and with the literature...I have seen several other sites....felt like I was looking, e.g. at a single-approach method....my message was more a question as to whether anyone here at Aeclectic had "degrees"....I personally would NOT seek one after what I have seen is here....This is such an amazing site..I feel I have learned in two months more than I could have learned in several of these courses.... I am getting the responses I hoped for and expected...I guess I wondered if anyone who reads for money felt that to give credibility they needed to be able to offer "credentials" of sorts... ty terri.... Even Bunning offers her "course" free...her book is one of 31 I have bought since I joined...and I still have 4-5 more on way, including Camoin deck and book, Hadar's deck.....I can't imagine ANY one course...opening up all these possibilities...and AT is on an international level...

Majecot	05 Apr 2004
I too wonder, does anyone here have a "degree" in Tarot? I am not sure that a certificate is necessary in most place to read professionally is it?

Nevada	05 Apr 2004
tmgrl2, Here are a couple of certification programs that (I think) are a little more widely recognized. http://www.americanboardfortarotcertification.org/levels.html http://tarotcertification.org/exams.html I've thought about taking one of these just for the structure and the certificate. (I haven't decided yet, but am leaning toward not, or at least holding off.) There are paid readers here who don't have this certification, who are probably every bit as qualified as they would be if they did have it. It's a matter of choice. I don't think your querents are going to ask you if you're certified. :) You may want to check whether your state has any licensing requirements. Seems to me I've heard here that a few states do. Nevada

lunalafey	05 Apr 2004
over $400- wow. who are they? are they cartified by anyone? lol look at this link http://tarotcertification.org/levels.html it's cheaper and it's for just the certificate- at what ever level you feel you can pass. You pay $50 for the level certificate and then the societies dues to be a member. If you are looking for a certificate from an assosiation that seems more...?....official?.....they have names of who they are and that impresses me more, and they are non-profit.

Rusty Neon	05 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by tmgrl2 Here's the link: http://www.tarotschool.com/Guidelines.html Nothing in the Tarot School's website indicates that they're a degree-granting post-secondary institution. Therefore, the First Degree, Second Degree, and additional degrees offered by them aren't "degrees" in the sense of a degree granted by a university, college, or other degree-granting post-secondary institution. Therefore, you should look on the Tarot School's degrees as non-credit programs. These being numbered degrees, First, Second, etc., they sort of remind me of the numbered degrees of Freemasonry which indicate levels, or degrees, of attainment. http://www.thelodgeroom.com/craft.html

Cerulean	05 Apr 2004
http://www.villarevak.org/phdt/intro.html Villa Revak also has many many good items to check and explore for new and mature students of the tarot. Mari H.

jmd	05 Apr 2004
With regards to licensing requirements by various councils, states or the like, these are usually in terms of a license to operate, not a certification or similar given by various Tarot incorporated bodies. These, though some may find them personally useful, are totally irrelevent when it comes to getting state or local licenses to operate. As to whether they are more widely accepted, this, in my view, means no more than more people may have these than the one produced by the NY link above. Each remains, in my personal view, a farce if used to somehow claim that one is a better reader than someone who does not have such certification. The increased desire by governments to control and monitor every part of individual lives is only served all the better by attempts to want to universalise such 'certifications' as though legitimate - under the false guise of providing 'client protection'.

Rusty Neon	05 Apr 2004
Here's Jim Revak's tongue-in-check offering of a Doctor of Philosophy in Tarotology (Ph.D.T.). http://www.villarevak.org/phdt/intro.html There is a short on-line examination, and you can print off a diploma. Best regards, Rusty Neon, Ph.D.T., O:.G:.R:.B:.

Cerulean	05 Apr 2004
Just before JMD's post. Well, I must have been as inspired by the Marseilles

Nevada	05 Apr 2004
I want to know, if I earn the Villa Revak Doctorate of Tarot, do I qualify to print the Divine Fifi-Ho-Tep-Trismegista (in her Most Devine Poodle Incarnation) on my business cards? :D Nevada

jema	06 Apr 2004
We do have a few people here that have a degree but I won't "out" anyone;-) My own views on certification have changed a lot by just being on AT. There was a time when I wanted to work towards a certification myself but I don't anymore. Partly because the whole fiasco with the ATA, partly because the only people in Sweden who have classes and make out certifications are the people I wouldn't want to give a cent, partly because who can read that wonderful post by Mojo and still pay a fortune just to seek approval by some distant organisation. I did however pay for the B.O.T.A course and don't regret it.

MystiqueMoonlight	06 Apr 2004
I've been thinking of conducting classes in breathing. At the end of it you will receive a Bachelor's Degree in SIGHtology :) The cost only US$450 (even though I am in Australia). Then of course there are admin fees, email reply fees, test fees etc etc. :) :) :)

Lee	06 Apr 2004
The Tarot School is a well-respected organization. Here's some more info about them: http://www.tarotpassages.com/inttarotschool.htm I took the course, the less expensive version without the extensive teacher feedback. For what it's worth, I was not impressed. The authors lay much emphasis on the Qabala but don't bother to teach the Qabala itself, instead suggesting off-handedly that the student read Wang's "Qabalistic Tarot," which is currently out of print and hard to find, and also not very user-friendly. This means you have to find either that book or another Qabalistic source, or else much of the course is incomprehensible. I think a correspondence course should be self-contained and self-referential. Otherwise, what is the point? After a few lessons I just gave up, even though I had paid for the whole course up front. I feel I wasted my money. I haven't had good luck with tarot or astrology correspondence courses. I've done several and been dissatisfied with all of them, for various reasons. I think you have to look at the "degree" as a certificate of completion, something stating that you completed a course, rather than a "degree" in the university sense. -- Lee

contrascarpe	06 Apr 2004
I think the whole concept is ridiculous. We have a local man here who reads in several metaphysical shops and teaches a night course at a local high school. In his bio, he boasts that he is ATA certified. When I was just starting to get serious, I decided to check out the ATA and discovered that all you have to do is send them $25 and promise to abide their code of ethics. Claims like this are meant to falsely legitimize oneself to the unitiated. If you were the average person with little or no knowledge about the inner workings of Tarot and were searching for someone to read for you, you would probably be sucked in by claims like this. I can see how this can happen - in today's world of "specialists" you want to see the professional (doctor, lawyer, dentist, etc.) who has been specifically trained for the area you need help in. I feel that I have learned far more through these boards and through my own research (not to mention my own inner self) than I could in a course. That being said I think everyone should subscribe to a code of ethics but even if one were "certified" in some way, it would be hard to regulate, not to mention that the general establishment would never take it seriously.

tmgrl2	06 Apr 2004
Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! I love all the posts this has generated....I still agree....I saved a few of the sites...just because I want to know what's out there...what it means when someone I meet says "The have....degree..." or when someone says "Are you certified in Tarot?" We have a local store that has flyers from vaious readers...I 'm going to take a look at them...this is mostly knowledge gathering on my part...I do know that the people who advertise charge...in New York...Manhattan, people tell me readings run between $100 and $200 session..these are just friends who have gone for readings...since I am starting out and don't plan to read for money...just see where Tarot takes me..I just want to "know what's out there." Can't even discuss anything unless you know enough to say...yes, there's that, but...here's how I feel about i... I love Umbrae's Walk into cafe (bar)...for me it would be Starbuck's...start laying out cars..for yourself..I guess and see what happens....I love it when I tell friends I am studying Tarot..I am flooded with questions...and requests for readings...I tell them right now I am doing some readings for family and close friends and myself....in time, But I don't have any intention of going to school for it...I have a "mini-school" at home with my books, decks and AT... This feedback has been great! Does anyone know if any states require certification? I'm going to do some searching later today when I get home... terri

tmgrl2	06 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd With regards to licensing requirements by various councils, states or the like, these are usually in terms of a license to operate, not a certification or similar given by various Tarot incorporated bodies. These, though some may find them personally useful, are totally irrelevent when it comes to getting state or local licenses to operate. As to whether they are more widely accepted, this, in my view, means no more than more people may have these than the one produced by the NY link above. Each remains, in my personal view, a farce if used to somehow claim that one is a better reader than someone who does not have such certification. The increased desire by governments to control and monitor every part of individual lives is only served all the better by attempts to want to universalise such 'certifications' as though legitimate - under the false guise of providing 'client protection'. I fully agree, jmd....even in the professions I have pursued...teaching (English), speech/language pathology and educational administration...there are a wide variety of programs....and certification IS required...yet some universities meet the minimum requirements for program accreditation, while others expect a much broader range of knowledge (credit--wise) and many more hours in the field as an intern...so that being said...I am puzzled when I hear somone announce "Oh she is certified by ....whatever...ATA..." to practice Tarot...it's a certification... of something...but "to practice" is a nebulous use of this word...going to do a NY search now... terri

tmgrl2	06 Apr 2004
Nevada...the link to Cert Board looks interesting...couldn't find anything other than that...but did find a link for "Tarot Meet-up Days" ....this one is for Manhattan...with links to other cities... http://tarot.meetup.com/members/321 will check this out....this is all information gathering on my part...I don't negate any certification someone holds..since they did something to get it...but in some cases, it's minimal...We all know people have advanced degrees and that doesn't make them expert in their own fields...(heh, heh, heh, she chuckles to herself) I say that with a genuine sense of humor...since I know people who could teach English, e.g., right now, just by staying a few steps ahead of a bright h.s. student...if one simply has had a life-long love of literature and writing...and a talent for it...we have many creative writers here on AT that I would match against some "certified" teachers I know....I'm not intending to denigrate education received at any authorized school or university or formal learning of any kind....certainly I have put in time to earn several advanced degrees...and I mentor young people on their paths in my fields since they often feel that the piece of paper makes equals "expert" level of knowledge/experience. This is a very interesting thread...going back for a few minutes to check out above link... I have one brother who is a whiz at math and engineering and has had several successful businesses and just oversees them now....he used to do my advanced algebra in his head...yet he dropped out of school and ran off to the Navy at 16, lied about his age and signed up....never went to college...no patience for it...He designs thermal electronic cut-back heating devices...(I think that's what it is) and his company does world-wide business..He rarely works....travels, eats out a lot, ...enjoys life...but he used what he had and never felt he needed college to do it or a piece of paper. My parents were immigrants here just before WWII and we didn't have the money for advanced education....I was lucky with scholarships and literally pushed to college by my dad...kicking and screaming. I don't regret it...but I come from a home where the giant Webster dictionary held a place of honor, and we all had library cards that were worn out. terri ty all again... (and...I am a notoriously poor typist and proof-reader for someone who taught English...I'm better reading someone else's work than my own...impatient!...but more careful, when it is for an article I might submit)

tmgrl2	06 Apr 2004
OK...I checked out the Meet-up Link...they have 1128 world-wide members....50 in New York City...too few in my county to host a meeting...only 28 or so active in NY...I was already a member of their Bookcrossing.com Meet-up...one takes a book, leaves it somewhere, posts where and another person goes to pick up that book, read, pass on, etc...Anyhow, I signed up for a year, just to see what kind of notifications I might get...I'm too new to start something in my County... Tarot is listed in the Meet-up sight under "Hobbies: Believers" Interesting..... terri

tmgrl2	06 Apr 2004
jmd!! you're there in the Melbourne Meet-up...Hooray! I'll see what comes of NY...hard for me to get to city...but maybe in my county can get something going later this year... terri

Kiama	06 Apr 2004
I'm going to say something a little different to what has already been said, but first, I'm going to make a distinction: There is a difference between teaching Tarot and certifying Tarot. Personally, I believe certifcation is arbitrary and does force 'standards' upon people which are un-necessary and could lead to what Diana suggested. However, teaching Tarot is something that I think can be a benefit to people. Especially if you are just starting out and don't know where to begin. True, you can get nearly all you need from various books, experience, and AT, but the trick is knowing where to begin with it all. You could pick up many expensive books and find that they are way over your head, for instance. However, if there is somebody there to guide you in the beginning stages you have at least some guidance and somewhere to focus your raw enthusiasm. I teach Tarot, though my course is alooot cheaper than the prices I have seen elsewhere (think around $25 for the whole thing, but this is simply a joining fee for the site, which also offers many other courses that look at similar subjects.) I would not dream of charging the amount I see in some places. My intention through the Tarot course is also not to expound one theory or viewpoint, but to give the student a taste of the variety and diversity out there, whilst allowing them to make their own minds up as to which way they go. Think of it like this: when you first began Tarot, didn't you get confused when you saw something in one Tarot book that directly contradicted what another Tarot book said? And wouldn't it have been great if you had somebody there to help you synthesize all the different viewpoints you had read, or understand why there is a difference? So, that said: I believe that you can benefit greatly from having somebody help you learn Tarot, but I do not think certification is important or necessary. It's just an arbitrary thing that should have no relevance to anything. In order to be certified with most organizations, you need to stick to their code of ethics, and a code of ethics is a highly subjective thing which can only be sorted out by the individual. It is very wrong to say that only those who stick to this subjectively chosen set of ethics is certifiable. Blessings, Kiama PS: the Tarot course I teach also does not pretend to teach everything about Tarot, but is designed as a platform from which the Tarot student can then go and 'do their own thing', and properly explore the Tarot by themselves. :D

tmgrl2	06 Apr 2004
Kiama...I absolutely agree with you! If it weren't for this site and all of the mentors and teachers I have found here...and practice reading and feedback and study groups....I would not be learning as I am...In fact, the first site I found was Joan Bunning's quite by accident...so yes, I believe that all of life we are all teachers and learners at all times...right now I am grateful for the many teachers, including you, Kiama, that I have found here at AT....I feel that offering to "teach" in person and online when one has knowledge to impart is not only valid but good.....how else can we learn? I agree that some of the course prices are outrageous! TY for all I have learned already from you, Kiama...an to all the other mentors I have here at AT... terri

TemperanceAngel	06 Apr 2004
I agree a lot of what Kiama says, but pretty much do the same in my teaching of the Tarot :) Quote: Originally posted by Kiama PS: the Tarot course I teach also does not pretend to teach everything about Tarot, but is designed as a platform from which the Tarot student can then go and 'do their own thing', and properly explore the Tarot by themselves. :D In melbourne, we have the Tarot Guild, which I am not a member of, they offer 'certificates' as such. I asked someone who was a member about it and they said you had to read for three people and pass an exam purely on card meanings. For example: there would be a situation and you would say what Major Arcana(s) represented it and why. It sounded very thorough to me. I, personally, do not fully agree with but do understand why it has been set up. I also wouldn't become a member.... XTAX

mysticalowl	06 Apr 2004
Although the cost is steep and I would think twice before putting down that kind of money...the Tarot School in NYC has a great reputation. The people who run it recently wrote a book called Tarot Tips which is excellent. They also run many events in and around NYC with top tarot readers and writers. So I suppose it does serve a purpose.

TemperanceAngel	06 Apr 2004
And there are so many psychics in NYC, on every corner it amazed me when I was there!!!! XTAX

jmd	10 Apr 2004
I agree with Kiama that there is a vast difference between a course and its numerous wonderful benefits (as I also mentioned earlier here & here), and the issue of 'certification'. With regards to a degree per se, the term does seem to indicate something a little different to that of certification. Whereas a 'degree' seems to suggest that a person has completed a course of study (at least to me), 'certification' seems to imply that a person in competent in engaging in an activity - the examples given by tmgrl2 with regards to the educational sector are a case in point (though there are of course regional differences as to requirements). For those interested in a Certificate, by the way, I have at times seen some for sale on e.Bay, and they are bound to be cheaper than those otherwise handed out. With regards to the reason certification is and has been offered by various bodies, I honestly have never heard a reasonable view as to why they are 'needed' nor desirable. I have heard various claims that it 'protects', but do not see how this can be the case. Returning to the awarding of degrees, I personally do not have a problem with an award for recognition to study undertaken, with educational institution equivalent workload and style of submission. For then, one would know what would be meant by a 'Degree', whether BTarot, MT, or TD. None of these, however, should indicate in any form or manner that one is a good reader! 'Certification' remains, to my way of thinking, treading on plain and simple dangerous ground!

Ruby7	10 Apr 2004
I was considering certification last year, and when I posted here and received responses I realized that there were many sides to this issue that I had not considered. I'm glad that I thought about it and received those opinions before pursuing a course leading to certification. As in I would no longer even consider taking a course to become "certified". I agree with what Kiama said about there being a difference between a tarot course to learn, and one that leads to certification. There is a big difference. It ia very clear to me now, that certification does not necessarily mean that the certified reader is a good reader. Intuition cannot be measured like that, and there are so many different good ways to go about reading the cards. Ruby7

tmgrl2	10 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by mysticalowl Although the cost is steep and I would think twice before putting down that kind of money...the Tarot School in NYC has a great reputation. The people who run it recently wrote a book called Tarot Tips which is excellent. They also run many events in and around NYC with top tarot readers and writers. So I suppose it does serve a purpose. Good to hear firsthand...ty, mysticalowl... terri

tmgrl2	10 Apr 2004
Thanks for the links, jmd....part of this discussion does have to do with semantics and fields and country...e.g. .In the US and NYork, to be a "certified" Speech Pathologist, it is not just the degree... (B.S., plus M.S. or M.A. minimum plus hundreds of clinical hours in various medical/educational settings, plus one year clinical fellowship on the job, plus passing a national board exam)....so certification in that field requires about 7 years of work, full-time... and it is synonymous with state/national licensure to practice.... e.g. diagnose and treat a wide range of speech/language disorders....A Speech Therapist...needs a B.S. or B.A. and can only work in educational setting since it offers certification for schools only ...not for private practice ... so terminology can get mixed up....as to rest of what you go on to say, jmd, once you link the area of work...and how easily one can get a "certificate" then it denigrates the value of the piece of paper...In Speech Pathology, however, certification can be gotten by no easier path than the one above...in the U.S. at least.... Quote: For those interested in a Certificate, by the way, I have at times seen some for sale on e.Bay, and they are bound to be cheaper than those otherwise handed out. With regards to the reason certification is and has been offered by various bodies, I honestly have never heard a reasonable view as to why they are 'needed' nor desirable. I have heard various claims that it 'protects', but do not see how this can be the case. Returning to the awarding of degrees, I personally do not have a problem with an award for recognition to study undertaken, with educational institution equivalent workload and style of submission. For then, one would know what would be meant by a 'Degree', whether BTarot, MT, or TD. None of these, however, should indicate in any form or manner that one is a good reader! ' Certification ' remains, to my way of thinking, treading on plain and simple dangerous ground! [/b] I agree with "degrees" here as earned according to your description.....the word "certification" needs to be in a context to apply appropriate meaning... terri

MystiqueMoonlight	10 Apr 2004
Personally I find it offensive and obtrusive that anyone should consider Tarot to be a certifiable "product". For me Tarot is not something to be educated in like an accountant but a spiritual path with the intent of enlightenment or self actualisation. In a society where standards are measured upon the haves and have nots applying a piece of paper to Tarot merely subjegates it. Perhaps we should then consider Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Taoists, etc as not capable of their faith or belief system unless they have a certificate to say they are? The idea that Tarot can be "learnt" in a certain period in order to gain this piece of paper is a misadventure. It is assumes there is a standardised meaning in each card (and whose standard?) and it removes individual interpretaion thus stifling one's true inner ability. Rather than undertake one of these courses study the LWB front to back and you can have your standard. Research and methodology is good sure, but a degree in Tarot is to me ludicrous.

Nevada	10 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight The idea that Tarot can be "learnt" in a certain period in order to gain this piece of paper is a misadventure. It is assumes there is a standardised meaning in each card (and whose standard?) and it removes individual interpretaion thus stifling one's true inner ability. What a great point. How can this possibly be measured, except by one person's standards that may not take into consideration even a fraction of what each of us learns on an individual basis. Nevada

Shade	12 Apr 2004
I know several people with degrees in Tarot and I have never had any of them attempt to gloat or look down their nose at me. For most if them the certification is important to them. I disagree with the notion that receiving certification in tarot would make it a "product". Many, many mystery traditions have degrees and hierarchies and initiations and the like and it wears a bit thin to have everyone get paranoid when someone else pursues them. Having some people receive certifications takes nothing away from the rest of us. Also, to put it out there, when folks receive a certification it in no way means that their tarot education ends there. I would imagine many would continue to visit sites like this and network with others and study different realms within tarot.

jmd	12 Apr 2004
There are undoubtedly many people who may have certificates and just value them for their own sake. The process they may have gone through to obtain them is also, undoubtedly, useful. The problem lies in that certification gives the FALSE impression that there is in fact some 'standard' which the process of reading can aspire to, and that certain groups of people have the wherewithall to accredit or certify someone. It would be interesting to see if it is also the case that those with certificates genuinely think the mere fact of holding the certification gives them somehow better right to practice public readings. There was certainly a time - which a number of us had to be clear and persistent about - that some wanted to make certification in the Melbourne (& Victoria) region mandatory by default. I describe one of my early experiences in another earlier thread. Part of the ongoing problem is not that the certificate is used internally only (such as is the case in initiatic rites & orders), but that it is generally used publicly, giving certain implications as to the certificate's persumed merits. There are very few areas I feel personally strongly about when it comes to Tarot - and this is one of them. If nothing else, let us carefully observe how the world around us is precipitating in particular directions. Do we want the same for Tarot?

MystiqueMoonlight	12 Apr 2004
JMD, You say it better than I - Thank you :)

Shade	13 Apr 2004
Well I can agree with the both of you in the notion that certification would be an issue if was seen as an abslute knowledge of trot (which I'm inferring so please correct me if I mised something). I think any absolutes within metaphysical studies are a problem from a belief that there is "one way" to read the cards to the belief that the cards should always be interreted to mean whatever you see during each individual reading. So I can see where theoreticaly it could become an issue. But every program I've heard of has stressed that it teaches one way to approach the cards and that the journey of teh tarot reader is the way of the eternal student. I have however no knowledge of wat was happening in Melbourne.

The Degree in Tarot? thread was originally posted on 05 Apr 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.