Drives me mad ...

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 30 Apr 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Jewel-ry	30 Apr 2004
The number of people who say they will ... contribute to study groups ... and then don't. Why say you will, when you have no intention of? Why not just say ... NO! Its so much easier on the people who put the effort into a thread, if they know who is genuinely interested and who isn't. Some of you need to stop being nice, just for nice sake, and start being honest!!! The 78 card study is becoming scarce. I know people have commitments, but why commit when you have no intention of following through? Namaste started a Rohrig study which has floundered. A few of us started a Tarot of Prague which now has only two of us left, on a regular basis. Seems to me that its a lot easier for some members to let others do the work and then all they have to do is ... read it!!! There are more and more threads being started and they just dont last more than one or two threads. Surely you lot have more commitment than this or is it a product of the fact that more and more of us obviously have far too many decks. My question... why bother?? J

Le_Corsair	30 Apr 2004
I hereby swear and affirm that never will I participate in, encourage, or otherwise make reference to a study group, so long as I shall be associated with Aeclectic Tarot Forum. So help me Gods. Bob :THERM

Bean Feasa	30 Apr 2004
((((((Jewel-ry))))))) I know how you feel ;) A friend of mine loves the phrase 'always under-promise and over-deliver'. Unfortunately I think it's just a fact of life that as human beings we tend to do the opposite. I also think it's very easy to be quite fickle in cyberspace, to commit to something and then just not show up because there are no consequences. In real life, sooner or later you have to meet the person, look them in the eye and make your excuses. I do think people mean well though, and initially have every intention of sticking with the programme. Maybe they just don't realise fully the time commitment involved. But I agree with you that it's all a bit disheartening sometimes. bright blessings, Kate

miss_apples	30 Apr 2004
What if you dont have any response to the thread? I bet some people are reading the study threads but not posting because they think they would be repetitive of what other people in the thread have already said.

mercenary30	30 Apr 2004
I told the Gothic Vargo SG that I was interested and then didn't play nice. They went so quick I found my self behind by a dozen cards before I got around to one, so I never did post. Not too long ago Moonbow* and I were going to do an Egyptian Tarot study, without formally starting a group, just to see if others would participate. Then contrascarpe96 started that Comparative Study Group where one could do ANY deck. I totally understand the problem with keeping Study Groups together, so I decided to stop making new threads for the Egyptian Tarot, and start adding my posts to the CompSG in the hopes that more participation there would keep at least one SG going strong. I have fallen behind there a little too. But I am working on three decks for that SG, including the Gothic Vargo that I promised. I am posting my GV studies in the Gothic Study Group because contrascarpe96 is linking those theads to his threads....which is very cool. So, I am trying to make amends for my past injustices.......

Jewel-ry	30 Apr 2004
Thats a very good and valid point Miss Apples. So in that case, why don't they move on to another card? There are 78 and only 2 of the Rohrig have been attempted. Also there are still approximately 40 left of the Tarot of Prague, and almost all of the Crystal and thats only the studies that I have been involved in. The Minchiate Etruria seems to have died a death as have numerous others. J :)

Namaste	30 Apr 2004
Dearest all... I have to support Jewel-ry in what she says here without equivocation, for obvious reasons. What happened with Rohrig saddened me because, not being able to come here on weekends myself, I am always careful to stipulate that whatever study groups I propose are what I like to call leisurely explorations of the decks, where there are no time constraints, within reason, of course, because what I do for pleasure (i.e. coming here), I like to do without feeling rushed. What I mean to say by this, is that if there is no pressure to have to respond by a given day or time, why do people still commit when they have no intention of even following along at a leisurely pace? Does what I've said, here, make sense to everyone? :) I feel that the cards of some decks, like the Voyager I love, require to be mulled over for a while, so that is another reason why call the groups I suggest explorations. The bottom line is that if I see a group I would like to commit to but realize that it moves fast, I determine at the outset if that's what I want. It has happened (in one instance) that I wanted to participate in an activity that required daily commitment. I approached the member who 'leads' it and asked, after explaining my situation, whether that would be acceptable or not. It is normal to want to please, and AT is so filled with wonders that one wishes one could have a finger in all the pies (I've felt that myself :) ), that it is often hard to resist. Having said all of this, and because I am relatively new to AT and have had to think of a sure way whereby I can minimize the chance of forgetting to answer a post, I am certain that I have also been guilty of overlooking someone's kind remark or opening post. If that is the case, I apologize for any past oversight on my part, and will be beholden to anyone who reminds me of any future lapse I may inadvertently commit. :) I thank you, Jewel-ry, for having the courage to have brought this matter, which I think is very important to a community such as ours, to the attention of everyone at AT. :D

Nycelle	30 Apr 2004
I fell away from the 78 week study partly because I started late and was weeks behind everyone, but also because my boyfriend and I were fighting a lot about Tarot at the time, so every time I sat down to journal or read, my head got clouded and I couldn't actually do anything. I will do it again - and he is now actively encouraging me to get fully into study again, despite his disapproval - but I am moving slowly. At the moment I am drawing a daily card and not much else. When other concerns die away, I will pursue a proper 78 week study.

laura_borealis	30 Apr 2004
One thing to consider is that for many of us, the end of the school year is upon us. I have not been participating in the AT Comparative Study circle for the last several cards because I am scrambling to get everything done. Once the semester is over I hope to get back into it. I also abdicated from the GSF group because I didn't feel like I could keep up -- but I did pm lunalafey and let her know, in that case (because she was nice to me and gave me a little guidance when I first joined AT). In general, I think it's human nature to be excited about something at the outset, but later become distracted or lose interest. It happens... I don't know how many hobbies I've taken up and then abandoned, for example.

Jewel-ry	30 Apr 2004
I can better understand it when a group study starts and then fades away gradually, but what appears to be happening is so many members are quick to say yes and get excited and then the studies dont appear to get past the first 1/2 threads. If you get tens of people agreeing 'Yes! Great Idea' and 'Count me in', thumbs up signs etc and literally the first post ends up with 3 people taking part and in the next thread the poor thread starter sits on their own, I think thats really sad. I also think it shows that most people never intended to even get involved in the first place. That's the difference! These are the occasions when members are better off not saying anything rather than agreeing to something that they know they are not going to do. I accept that peoples circumstances change and they have to pull out or just get bored, but some threads don't get going at all, after lots of promises. I just think this is happening more and more. :)

hedgecub	30 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by laura_borealis One thing to consider is that for many of us, the end of the school year is upon us. I have not been participating in the AT Comparative Study circle for the last several cards because I am scrambling to get everything done. Once the semester is over I hope to get back into it. Yep.. Mea culpa, but I plan on starting to join in on the study groups again once my exams are over. 2 weeks to go..

mj07	30 Apr 2004
guilty as charged when I first started posting on AT I got all excited about a couple of study groups, figured it would be a great way to learn, said "ya, count me in". But then I realized I just don't have the time to do the studies justice. Or, in some instances, feel a bit intimidated by the depth other people go into and don't feel like I can just write one or two lines. so, if I don't have time to contribute, is there somebody I should notify to tell them?

OakDragon	30 Apr 2004
I can understand how people feel about those who say they will participate in study groups and then don't do it frequently. I, too, said I would be participating in the Rohrig and Voyager groups. I have been in the process of moving from California to Florida (2500 miles) and starting a new career for the past month, however, and have truly not had time to do the subjects the justice which they deserve and the depth everyone (by example) seems to expect. By the same token in which the original observation by jewel-ry was made, though, are we to assume that those who said the study groups were to be casual and that anyone could participate, not on a particular schedule, but when they can, were simply misleading us or not serious? I had took such statements literally.

TemperanceAngel	30 Apr 2004
Yeah the 78 card study is scarce and dare I say that the person who started isn't posting either! (I'm picking on you jmd :P ) At least I pop in every now and then.... Jewel-ry p-p-p-p-please don't be mad at me.... *TA's down on her hands and knees begging!!!!!* XTAX

VGimlet	30 Apr 2004
I totally agree with you Jewel-ry. That said, I also understand how hard it is to keep up with a study group - I can't even keep up with my OWN study plan for the Thoth, let alone an organized card a day involving a group. I'm probably going to finish at *least* a month later than I thought I would. :rolleyes: I've tried to be honest about how much I would be able to contribute, (to the re-emerging Thoth group) and I'm hoping that it will be more instead of less. I think everyone has good intentions about belonging to groups, without realizing (like I did the hard way long ago) that they can involve a significant investment of time, which people don't always have. Now, if I could just figure out a way to not need sleep every night.....

contrascarpe	30 Apr 2004
I have been guilty of not keeping up as well. That is sort of why I started the AT Comparative, and I am resolved to keep it going, heck or high water. I did start the Bruegel but only about three of us were active. I am resolving to see the Comparative through to the end. Right now I am going through some serious personal issues and a very hectic work schedule so my participation has been slow in the Comparative, but at least am getting the ball rolling by starting the thread and then posting the first card (always the Universal RWS). I still want to make it the most comprehensive one out there but it will take time - I try to research as many of the existing threads for that card that remain, plus I try to keep up the list of decks covered. I am hoping that my absence in posting a ton of decks for the past couple of cards is not misconstrued as disinterest on my part. I travel extensively for work and my laptop is unreliable to do this study justice while I am traveling. Add in my fiancee's health issues, plus my normal everyday "keeping up with the boards" and I have fallen behind. The invitation is open on the Comparative - we WILL get through all 78 cards, in random order, with links as complete as possible. Plus I also plan to eventually post reactions for each card for all of my decks. Come join us - if things go well, we will get our own forum soon :) Dan

contrascarpe	30 Apr 2004
One other thing about the Comparative - if it is done correctly, and hopefully it is off to a good start, because of the linking feature it will hopefully be incentive for the existing study groups to continue. A Study Group is only as good as the person organizing it. If there is not a commitment to continue, it will fade away. One has to ignore the facts that people are not contributing, and plug away at keeping it going. WolfyJames has done a good job of consistently keeping the Gothic on path, hoping for a stray contribution from time to time. The purpose of a good study group is have a good framework of information so that future Aeclectians can join in and learn. That phenomenon is evident everytime you see a post resurrected after a long absence. Take the advice of the disembodied voice in the film Field of Dreams - if you build it, they will come. Dan

Dragons_Wing	01 May 2004
i'm guilty of this also :( i really really really wanted to start/join the new thoth study group, as i was the one who suggested to restart it up for people who have just joined or just got this deck but 1. i have absolutly no idea how to actually start a study group such as what i should put down for each card and so on. 2. my work scedual pretty much leaves out any time for tarot in my life (except for my 15 min break where i grab a quick smoke and do a daily reading and quick journal entry) or much of anything else for 10 days at a time :(

Jewel-ry	01 May 2004
I didn't post this to make people feel guilty, I do understand that people have a 'life' and unfortunately that is the real world and things have to be dealt with first. It was merely a message to others to think before they say 'me too'. It is disheartening to think loads of people are interested but when the thread starter makes the first post only one or two join in. J :)

firemaiden	01 May 2004
I was disappointed with the participation in the Margarate Petersen Study group. Most of the threads are just me making one post :(

Jewel-ry	01 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by TemperanceAngel Yeah the 78 card study is scarce and dare I say that the person who started isn't posting either! (I'm picking on you jmd :P ) At least I pop in every now and then.... Jewel-ry p-p-p-p-please don't be mad at me.... *TA's down on her hands and knees begging!!!!!* XTAX You are forgiven TA! Please stand up, you are making me feel guilty! :*

TemperanceAngel	01 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Jewel-ry You are forgiven TA! Please stand up, you are making me feel guilty! :* Phew, I knew you wouldn't be mad with me! Don't feel guilty, your thread is important :) XTAX

spoonbender	01 May 2004
I know what you mean, Jewel-ry, I've noticed it too. I myself quit the 78-Weeks-of-Study, because I found myself always rushing to finish the study in time (my schoolwork was piling up), while it didn't seem to matter much whether I posted or not, I didn't seem to add anything worthwhile. There was a thread once on how to make the 78-Weeks more interesting or something like that, and when I posted my ideas, no one even responded and I killed the thread. I still haven't given up on the Bruegel, though my last post on the Lovers didn't even get a reply - which doesn't work very encouraging. Only three others are actively participating (a few others seem to have quit before they even posted something), but apperently, Dan, you've given up too? It's easy to take on too much without fully realising the consequences, and I'll definitely be more careful in the future.

Jewel-ry	01 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by mj07 Or, in some instances, feel a bit intimidated by the depth other people go into and don't feel like I can just write one or two lines. so, if I don't have time to contribute, is there somebody I should notify to tell them? Of course you can write one or two lines. There is no need to write an essay. Quite often those odd one or two things that you write will add a lot to a thread. No you dont have to tell anyone if you are not going to participate although I suppose it would be polite to say a little something. I am not putting pressure on you all here. Please don't get me wrong. I certainly have no intentions of making anyone feel guilty! Goodness, I have probably even done it myself! I know how hard it is to keep things going and how easy it is to get bogged down but it is a shame on those who actually go ahead and start threads to find that they suddenly die before they have even got started properly. :)

closrapexa	03 May 2004
I've started a thoth study group right now, and I hope it'll all work out. seventy eight weeks is a long time, but its the barest minimum to study a card. But anyway, I contribute to the threads whenever I can, because its not a question of whether I get answers or not (sometimes). I lear on my own, I share what I learn here, I learn from others. Most importantly, when I read other posts, I see things that I wouldn't have otherwise thought of. And when I write, it gives me the chance of thinking things through.

lionette	03 May 2004
Just want to announce that the Minchiate SG isn't dead or dying -- we're just moving at a leisurely pace :) I might be one of the few who doesn't mind the smaller groups at all, in fact I prefer them. Altho, about participation, I often find myself in a time bind but hope to have that worked out soon. About "etiquette" for a study group. I've always thought of the person who initiates the group as the leader who starts each thread and chooses the pace for the SG. Is this how it generally works or are the groups more informal so that anyone interested should start threads as they wish? (I haven't wanted to step on toes) ps. Jewel-ry, I'm still interested in more Crystal study :)

Rusty Neon	03 May 2004
A SG needs a critical mass. Even RWS, Thoth and Marseilles study groups are not frequent-post groups. Yes, not even the Marseilles group, despite the efforts of many, including yours truly! So you can imagine the smaller-interest groups. To the extent that it interests them and their perceived compromise is not too great, if people want to study a deck as a group experience, it may be a good idea to go with a choice of deck lower down the scale in their personal preferences so as to support a SG that has a larger critical mass - or else to choose a SG deck that has sustaining group study appeal. A good SG deck possibility is one that is different enough from the RWS deck - not just a different art style. If the design of the SG deck's cards is only just a bit different from RWS, the SG won't have that much to add to what could be done in a RWS group. For example, the LS Secret Tarot group is an interesting possibility. That deck is RWS-inspired but has quite a few interesting differences that make one look at their Marseilles and RWS decks more closely, and the deck artist took some interesting twists. Upon my return from holidays, I'm hoping to participate in that SG more actively [but no firm guarantees :)]. The same could be said about the Osho Zen, etc. Which SG catches on is all a question of timing and group dynamics and chance, I guess.

Rusty Neon	03 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden I was disappointed with the participation in the Margarate Petersen Study group. Most of the threads are just me making one post :( FM ... Your posts in that SG were thought-provoking. I thought for sure with the release of the English version there would be a critical mass. You built a pretty good Field of Dreams for that SG.

Rusty Neon	03 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by lionette About "etiquette" for a study group. I've always thought of the person who initiates the group as the leader who starts each thread and chooses the pace for the SG. Is this how it generally works or are the groups more informal so that anyone interested should start threads as they wish? (I haven't wanted to step on toes) The best guarantee - and TEST - of an active and sustaining study group is that more than one person does the thread-starting. This way everyone feels a stake in the study group and no one single individual feels pressured to perform by starting threads. This way, if one person's enthusiasm is a bit low at a particular time, someone else will be there to take up the slack. And it keeps things interesting. It's also good to try novel concepts, games, exercises, readings, card-of-the-day, etc. It may perhaps be helpful to study whichever cards in whichever order as the people's spirit moves them, rather than in strict sequence. It's less of a chore that way. Focus on the particular cards of that deck that have something to say different from those of other decks. Studying cards that aren't much different from those of other decks will be a chore for everyone and may dampen enthusiasm.

Jewel-ry	04 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden I was disappointed with the participation in the Margarate Petersen Study group. Most of the threads are just me making one post :( Ohh FM, :( I only just noticed this post! It seems that we were posting together. I know what this feels like, I posted on the Crystal all on my own for a little while, eventually I gave up! Shame really because I think there is a lot to be seen in that deck. Thanks to Bean Feasa, we are managing to keep the Tarot of Prague going. There is mostly just the two of us though. Baba_Prague used to join in occasionally to give us more info on the cards, and one or two others but mostly its just us. We have covered about half of the cards and the study is definately useful. Its crucial that you have more than one person with the determination to see it through. Once the foundations are laid others can join in later, I suppose. I quite like the Sacred Circle, card of the day, they have managed to keep that going. :)

The Drives me mad ... thread was originally posted on 30 Apr 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.