I almost don't believe this...

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 28 Apr 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Chronata	28 Apr 2004
I love that everyone here is so understanding. And I'm feeling a little...well...disappointed. I just got a call from my local park district guy. He was initially really excited that I was going to teach some classes in our little community this summer. Besides the art classes for kids...I was also offering to teach a beginner's tarot course. And he was originally really excited about this offering. I knew there ewas trouble last week, when I got the e-mail that said that "some people " were "concerned" about the tarot class being offered to Teens and Adults because the Teen classes start at age 13. I told him that it was OK if he wanted to move the age to 16-adult...even though I used to teach tarot to much younger kids. Today the call came in that the class had to be cancelled from the Summer schedule because of its "sensitive nature." I'm not quite sure what this means. My spouse is angry about this, because he believes that it is something that has to do with this town's religious intolerance. I kinda get where's he's comming from...but I don't really equate Tarot with religion. Perhaps there are still people in this small Wisconsin town of 1000 who still think of tarot as something dark or sinister or threatening to thier good way of life. I don't know. I'm actually not so much angry about this, as I am...disappointed. I was really looking forward to teaching tarot again. But perhaps not through the local park system. sigh. Thanks to all of you wonderful AT friends for listening. Has anyone else here come up against this sort of thing in your own community? Did you keep silent, and chalk it up to the Universe's way of telling you that some people are afraid of change..., or did you do anything to combat it?

lunakasha	28 Apr 2004
Hey (((Chronata)))!!! I am so sorry to hear that....I am sure you must be very disappointed....and also confused, hurt and angry....I am sure I would be! You mentioned that you do not equate tarot with religion....BUT I am sure you realize that a lot of these religious zealots are very intolerant of anything which they perceive to be "occult" or even questionable....to them, EVERYTHING is related to religion on one level or another. I am not sure what I would do in your situation, except maybe try talking to some of the parents in your community, starting with people that you already know and feel fairly comfortable with. Because if you can get a few people to reconsider, by educating them on what tarot is and is not, then maybe word of mouth would result in more people becoming educated. Granted, it may not result in an overwhelming show of support for tarot classes...but it is a step in the right direction! :) Best of luck to you, my friend!!! :D Luna

Imagemaker	28 Apr 2004
That's a real disappointment when it seemed so possible, but I'm not at all surprised. Even in much larger towns, in other areas of the country, I can imagine it being "too sensitive" a topic for a municipal entity to offer. For me, the response is all about energy level--have you got the energy to go round talking to people, demonstrating your "normality" and tarot's common sense, proving yourself and the cards, thinking up a way to open the door . . . or is that how you want to spend your time for very unsure results? I usually decide to spend my energy in other ways, but that's just me.

_N_	28 Apr 2004
Unfortunately, the Christian religion preaches a rather high level of intolerance, even though their holy book says something completely different. Most of them don't even know everything it says or what it is supposed to mean. I agree with what lunakasha said - the zealots make everything a religious issue, and saddly, it only takes a couple of "outraged" Christian zealots to destroy anything they set out to do away with. We are supposed to be a country of religious freedom, but it's a long way off from that, and in fact, I think that because Paganism and Wicca are growing so quickly that the Christian ministers and priests are doing everything they can to continue to brainwash their flocks into thinking that Paganism and Wicca are satanic. Rather than eventual acceptance, as most Pagans hope will come, I see the battle lines being drawn more clearly as more and more Pagans come out of the broom closet and the Christian zealots have more to focus their hatred on. As Imagemaker said, you need to decide if pushing for this is worth your energy and I add, the possible problems it may bring. Even if you yourself are a Christian (one of the non-zealot variety ;) ) you run the risk of being labeled evil and in cahots with satan. In a small town that can be dangerous. I wish you the best in what ever you should decide to do. N

September Pixie	28 Apr 2004
That really stinks! *rolls eyes* Is there no one you can call/protest to? Anyway we can help?

MeeWah	28 Apr 2004
Chronata: Aside from the pertinent points referred to by Imagemaker & _N_, if ye press the issue there may be repercussions in future. Such as being dropped from consideration as a teacher for *any* class by thepowersthatbe out of a misguided concern for whatever else to which students may be exposed. Sadly, the unenlightened tend to pre-judge harshly anyone different in any way from the mainstream, whether by association or some other arbitrary criteria.

laura_borealis	28 Apr 2004
I'm sorry this happened. I would be very disappointed, too. Maybe there is another venue for teaching, though. I would love to take such a class. I'm sure there are many in your community who are interested. Maybe you could even find students through word of mouth.

HudsonGray	28 Apr 2004
Seems like they have to see it on tv for 3 or 4 years before it's accepted. Remember when Science Fiction was ooohh so scary? Then Star Trek came along & the kids liked it & it was ok. Ditto gays on tv. Tarot, unfortunately, still hasn't gotten much exposure in the tv world. Can you run a class of your own via the library or a bookstore instead? (This better not be in Watertown, there's a big pagan community out there).

lionette	28 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Chronata Perhaps there are still people in this small Wisconsin town of 1000 who still think of tarot as something dark or sinister or threatening to thier good way of life. It's so unfortunate that many places still think of tarot as sinister. I think you can chalk it up to what people don't understand, they generally fear. I'd suggest writing a letter to the editor of the local paper and explain this as a type of censorship (to get a headline) and be sure to have loads of documented sources of more traditional tarot decks and their popularity. Maybe the jesus or another christian-themed decks would be helpful }) Or another tack would be to try to get an interview with a reporter on the paper staff! Good luck, Chronata and keep trying for a class!

Kittaine	29 Apr 2004
WHAT?! I study in a Catholic university run by Catholic Brothers, but people here can teach and read Tarot freely! I don't understand how the people in your town could say that!

September Pixie	29 Apr 2004
Hudson brings up an interesting point... Its sad that some ignorant (not stupid.. ignorant because they often don't know any better) people can make things like this happen... it really upsets me that there is still this 'evil' hanging over tarot.. its just SAD!

Lady Eclipse	29 Apr 2004
((((((Chronata)))))) I'm so sorry this had to happen. It is a shame that there are still so many out there who are so close-minded to anything that they don't understand, therefore it must be 'evil' or 'bad.' Unfortunately, people like this rarely want to take a chance and stick their head out of their comfort zone so they can think outside of the little box they live in. Maybe you could try teaching a class for adults first before going out and trying to convince the misinformed that teaching a class for teens is harmless. Go outside of your own town to a larger city if you have to. When people see that there is no harm in what you're teaching, you're more likely to be cut some slack in the future. Joy to you, Maralee

punchinella	29 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Kittaine WHAT?! I study in a Catholic university run by Catholic Brothers, but people here can teach and read Tarot freely! I don't understand how the people in your town could say that! Kittaine, the people in your Catholic university are not protestant 'fundamentalist' Christians. Alas. Big big big difference. The U.S. (particularly through it's midsection :rolleyes: ) is still very much a puritan nation. Having been brought up in this atmosphere, & then removed from it, I can now put it in some perspective. The label 'puritan' helps me to do this. Perhaps it's unfair, but it helps me to understand where such intense levels of hatred & intolerance come from. Catholicism, on the other hand, is something else altogether. --Something, in the limited experience I've had of it (well, I am also taking courses in a Catholic school right now :D ) far more gentle . . . I have a private theory that Mary has something to do with this. Protestant Christians do not recognize any feminine aspect whatsoever to divinity . . . &, IMO, this is a real problem. :) Punch

Kittaine	29 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by punchinella Kittaine, the people in your Catholic university are not protestant 'fundamentalist' Christians. Alas. Big big big difference. Hm..Yes, I think I see what you mean. I spent my elementary years in a Protestant Fundamentalist school. It was Hell. It was one of the worst things I've had to go through. The school system was like a dictatorship. A ridiculous amount of discipline was expected from the students. And yes, there was intolerance. I have nothing against their beliefs, since I incorporate some of them into my own belief system. But Jesus, they were too much! If I'd even brought up the topic of tarot reading or astrology or anything that falls under what we call New Age, they'd have cited some passage from the Bible, told me that this was THE word of God (without examing its historical background and such), and suspended me from classes. Seriously, they would have. I can feel what you're going through. It's constricting being in that kind of environment...Although I think yours is much more pleasant than my elementary school. Edited to add: I'm sure there are other places where you can teach. That country's a big place. Some areas may not be very accepting of tarot, but I'm sure others are more welcoming.

Phoenix Rising	29 Apr 2004
Hi, sorry that you have to experience that. Luckily over here (NZ) tarot is very well accepted everywhere. Apart from running into a Christian, now and then. But not worried about them, just need to preach the bible back at them. If you had your own venue where you could teach, then you won't need to follow the rules of anyone else. You must of knew at some point and time that you were going to run into that type of adversary? It's your reaction to it, not there's, they are insignificant! Ignorant buggers aren't they?

Sulis	29 Apr 2004
((((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))))) I've nothing more to add - others have said it so well. I'm really sorry this has happened but I'm not suprised. Love Sulis xx

smokey	29 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Sulis ((((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))))) I've nothing more to add - others have said it so well. I'm really sorry this has happened but I'm not suprised. Love Sulis xx Ditto...Chronata,I can almost feel your pain and disappointment;it makes me feel so angry and helpless(both negative feelings I hate!) Hang in there & know we're all backing you.PM me if you like @ any time...lol

TemperanceAngel	29 Apr 2004
Chronata I had a male age 14 recently enrol in my Tarot course coming up in July. I wasn't sure what to do, so I rang him and he is coming to see me tomorrow, he sounds like a real sweetie and so mature! The next step is to get his parents permission, first chat with them and let them know that people discuss personal experiences, sometimes emotional....then if they say it's OK he can do it. I personally can't wait until he joins the class and know he will be an amazing asset. Do you think you could set up something like that? Where as long as the parents say it's OK, then teens can do it? XTAX

SongDeva	29 Apr 2004
The fact that you got a class planned at all would suggest that the energy is getting to where it is good for you to teach. So these weren't your students. Your students will find you. Remain open and tell the universe you're willing to teach if it supplies the venue and learners.

Chronata	29 Apr 2004
Thank You...Everyone! All your support here has been wonderful, and all these posts are very enlightening! I have decided that maybe it IS worth the energy to pursue this further. but not quickly...and not right now.... Perhaps in the future...I'm sensing things will change. I guess I have led a pretty sheltered existance when it comes to tarot! Back in my home town...a suburb of Chicago...there was never any problems with teaching , or doing tarot. And I spend a lot of my time here in Wisconsin being online with you folks...I guess I was just a little surprised that something like this still exists! It's funny...because the contact I have with the park district is a young man who is really trying to make some programs work. Apparently the only real classes and workshops being taught at the moment are sports for kids... . No art, or creative classes at all. And really nothing for adults. This man wanted to have SOMETHING...almost anything...to fill the schedule and peak peopls's interest in the community offerings! I felt something was strange about the message he left on my phone...so I did a reading to sort of clarify the hidden influences in this matter. My contact is...the six of cups, the ace of swords and the seven of wands... Someone who is really trying to make something new happen in this community, for kids... and fighting for what he wants against the tide of those in charge of the village. The hidden aspects were...the two of swords, the five of swords , the eight of swords... I get the feeling that he is really up against some opposition somewhere but he has to be the mediator and bow to what the village says. and I got this feeling when I drew these cards...that there isn't really one person against this...but someone decided that maybe someone else MIGHT be offended...so the class had to be dumped from the schedule. hmmmm....I'll have to research this further... Outcome...The Hierophant, the Tower, 9 of wands... shaking up the foundations! Going against all that tradition! I think I am going to wait a bit, test the waters a bit...and then try offering this class again. Maybe offer tarot as a small part of a different class...one on connecting to personal growth and spirituality or something like that! I think these cards tell me not to give up completely with this fight. Thanks again to everyone for your encouragement!!!!

Imagemaker	29 Apr 2004
Quote: Maybe offer tarot as a small part of a different class...one on connecting to personal growth and spirituality or something like that! Good idea to slide in sideways. I've used them in writing classes and had positive reception. May your tarot seed grow in new Michigan soil . . .

Cerulean	29 Apr 2004
http://store.yahoo.com/purcifuls-toys/notfrompurab4.html That is, if someone had to make a presentation to what kind of decks would be used... Some of the beautiful commerative decks for France or Italy would be part of their culture...I saw the Disney distribution had packaged all of the Spirited Away anime books in a set with regular playing cards for the American market, not tarot... I guess if people are concerned about family-presentable decks or its use other than storytelling or creative problem-solving, then this might be a launch point for presenting the class to younger people. The Inner Child Cards would be a good storytelling start for short story fiction, perhaps some of the costumed and colorful art decks would be good for poetry... I was thinking that I considered the Hidden Folk from Lo Scarabeo and the Italian language version known as Alba Dorata (Incanti) -- Golden Dawn (Enchanted) as older teen/young adult, but really more for storytelling reading and personal use with people I know. And it's not risque at all, I'm just being more cautious because in recent years tarot has been associated with bad scams and news... Cerulean Mari

punchinella	29 Apr 2004
Hey, I've thought about using tarot in high-school writing classes as well (I'm not teaching yet, but will be soon :D ) & then 'thought again' . . . one or two outraged parents could do so much damage. & yet, tarot would be so darn fun to play with in a writing class . . . for example, I thought about having a deck permanently installed on my desk, & students permitted at any time to come up & draw a card to journal on (there would, of course, be other things available for them to journal on as well :) ) But the thought of parents denouncing me as 'satanic' & a 'bad influence'--well, it frightens me. I think their (the angry parents') attitude would be that if Christian prayer is not allowed in schools, why should tarot (the 'other side') be? Come to think of it Chronata, that's probably the argument your contact person is up against. Tarot being (erroneously) equated with religion, & the parks commission being a division of the government . . . well, church & state, oil & water . . . food for thought??

_N_	29 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by punchinella Come to think of it Chronata, that's probably the argument your contact person is up against. Tarot being (erroneously) equated with religion, & the parks commission being a division of the government . . . well, church & state, oil & water . . . food for thought?? Good point. Very good point on many levels. N

FoxFire50	29 Apr 2004
Greetings from Texas (the buckle of the "Bible Belt"), As one who is surrounded by Christian evangelists and fundamentalists on a daily basis, I would agree that the perception of Tarot as something evil and supernatural was most likely at the root of the cancellation. If you're living in a small town, I would suggest that you be very careful about forcing the issue or attempting to educate. It's been my experience here in Texas that people of this persuasion are simply not open to Tarot and you could be putting yourself in danger by actively promoting it. Fundamentalist Christians can be pretty scary and sometimes quite threatening to anyone whom they feel hasn't been "saved". If your class is being "blocked", trust in the Universe that this is most likely the best outcome for your efforts at this time. As the saying goes, "Better safe than sorry". In Spirit, Fox

Imagemaker	29 Apr 2004
Welcome Foxfire50--at least at AT we tarot fans feel understood and free to express our interest in this amazing tarot-world. Thank Universe (and all forms of power and goodness) for the internet!

Nevada	29 Apr 2004
Chronata, that's so rotten! Maybe next time you can include in your master plan (proposal?) a requirement for parental permission for minors, and some specific information on the decks you'll use, similar to what they provided on Cerulean's link. Maybe even a disclaimer about any relation to religious instruction, so no one can raise the separation of church and state issue. Though some people do use tarot as part of a spiritual or religious practice, it's something like a candle in that regard. You can use a candle in a ritual, or you can use a candle to light a table in a restaurant--or a birthday cake. Tarot has a place, a very big place, completely outside religious or spiritual uses. I sometimes wonder if our fundie population is as large as the more vocal of that persuasion would have us believe, at least in my neck of the woods. Then I'm amazed to open my little local newspaper to the classified ads and see that some of the people offering services there label themselves in the ad as belonging to a particular religion. Huh? I wonder what they think that has to do with anything. It's puzzling and a bit disturbing. I want to look over my shoulder as I read the ads. I don't think I want to hire someone to install sprinklers or clean house who feels a need to identify themselves by religion in their advertisement. Any religion! Go figure. :rolleyes: Foxfire, you gave me a giggle with the "buckle" comment. Welcome to Aeclectic, where you can breathe easy. :) Nevada

full deck	30 Apr 2004
Though I would encourage *some* people to investigate the Tarot, I would not freely do so because there are many people who are unsuitable, emotionally or intellectually. Additionally, there seem to be many people that inject *way* too much unclarified thinking onto the subject, resulting in some of the more dubious thought that is just patent superstition and nonsense, i.e., "I can't possibly read Tarot if I'm not wearing my lucky underwear", "The cards don't like my animals to smell them", etcetera, etcetera. Personally, I would have to do much work and preparation if I was to ever try to teach what I know, in fact, unless I developed a solid teaching curriculum and methodology, I would most definitely be unqualified. Teaching is not easy since it requires more of a critical effort and consistent application of method. It would be nice to have someone that really teaches explain how they approach all of that methodology. Teaching Tarot in a a heavily-evangelistic place is like spitting in the wind and about as useful. Most of these types of people want confirmation of what they think they know and nothing else. Likewise, some urban American settings are no better since there seems to be a kind of "porn-ifacation and gangsterism that is in fashion with the younger crowd, not to mention the pandemic corruption of standards; what is good in a given field and what is not. Let them learn to swim on their own but do see them as they are, imperfect, fellow humans and all.

Star Spirit	30 Apr 2004
:( *HUGS* It is all about intolerance, whether it be religious or otherwise. Some people just don't know how to have fun. I hope you can find a way to make things right or teach tarot in another less 'sensitive' setting.

Nevada	30 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by full deck Teaching Tarot in a a heavily-evangelistic place is like spitting in the wind and about as useful. This is probably true, if the majority of people in a community are behaving at this level of intolerance. OTOH, if the problem is a highly vocal minority acting as if they speak for the majority, then a well-designed course that leaves a positive impression can go far in dispelling some of the myths surrounding tarot. Nevada

Chronata	30 Apr 2004
you know, I actually didn't think this community was that closed-minded about this sort of thing. After I did a reading about it, I sent e-mails to the guy I deal with and told him that I was disappointed...but that I understood. I also hinted that I would like to know the reasons why this class was pulled, but as of yet, I have heard nothing back from him. My Mother-in-law works with him at the Village Office...so I think I can get a clearer picture if I let her ask around! She enjoys stirring things up!! :) I had a little conversation with my spirit guide last night...and I kept getting the same message...Allow, and Flow...so I probably will just let the matter rest at the moment. And really the whole controversy was not not about whether I was teaching chilren to read tarot (because I offered to change the class to "adults only") but rather that I was teaching Tarot at all. But I would like to thank everyone again who is posting in this thread. Thanks Guys...you make me better about the whole thing! :D

Dark Inquisitor	30 Apr 2004
Well, Tarot is still that batty aunt you have to keep locked in the basement . I think it will be like this for a long time yet. People are threatened by the unknown. Chronata, since you are from the Chicago suburbs as I was, perhaps you have heard of one of the psychics from that area that was having great success with her angel readings and lectures. The churches were even inviting her in !! Maybe something like that would give you a foothold and let people know you were not consorting with satan in your spare time. Perhaps before trying any more classes, you might attempt getting some informational articles in the local papers , or getting out to public events and doing readings. Maybe even offer some lectures about what the Tarot really is , so you can address people's fears and misconceptions. Tarotphelia

The I almost don't believe this... thread was originally posted on 28 Apr 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.