LWBs you hate (make Umbrae's day!)

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 05 Apr 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

galadrial	05 Apr 2004
Taking off from Nevada's thread of LWBs you love, I thought I'd mention that there are some I truely hate. This isn't for those neutrally awful ones that give terse, superficial descriptions, but for ones that go below and beyond merely mediocre. One is the Napo LWB. I only read the description for the Fool card (one of my favorites in this deck) and was so appalled I actually wished I could stick a sponge through my ear to my brain and expunge it from my memory. The other is the one for Folchi's Mitologico deck. I really can't get into the deadpan psychological approach it takes and have tried my best to suppress the memory of it ;-) so that I can just enjoy my own take on these beautiful cards.

miss_apples	05 Apr 2004
I hate the LWB for the rennaisance deck...I think thats by Visconti (I cant remember since I gave that deck away long ago) It had no descriptions of the cards in it.

sagitarian	05 Apr 2004
all of them!

Macavity	05 Apr 2004
Camoin Marseille - No hate involved, I just needed a LOT more help! :D Oh yeah: Anything with the unmodified "standard" U.S.Games meanings... }) Macavity

jema	05 Apr 2004
The "I am One tarot" has a LWB that is quite awful! Lots of hokus pokus on how tarot came from Moses etc. Enough said.

contrascarpe	05 Apr 2004
I really have a tough time with most of the Lo Scarabeo decks. They are extremely thin to begin with and add in the fact that they are written in multiple languages ....... Oh, what the Bruegel could have been with actual card descriptions and not a scant "proverb" listed for each image. Dan

Astraea	05 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by contrascarpe96 I really have a tough time with most of the Lo Scarabeo decks. They are extremely thin to begin with and add in the fact that they are written in multiple languages ....... Yes, I agree. Considering that Lo Scarabeo decks often embody images and meanings which are significantly different from the ones many of us have "grown up" with, an explanation, storyline or rationale would be helpful.

laura_borealis	05 Apr 2004
My brother likes this phrase: "Say little, mean much" I haven't found the LWB that really does this, yet.

baba-prague	05 Apr 2004
The LWB I hate (no, that's too strong - dislike) is the LWB I have to write! The problem is that a LWB has to be so many things to so many people. For someone who buys their first deck it HAS to have at least some basic meanings and interpretations, otherwise they are left totally up in the air, but for a collector or an experienced reader, it needs to have some good information specific to the deck. Getting the balance right is demanding enough in a companion book, but in the VERY few words of a LWB it's seriously difficult. I am thoroughly enjoying writing the companion book for our new deck but almost dreading the LWB. I think whatever one does, it can only be a very pale shadow of the book. But maybe that's just life? It might be possible to make it much longer, but that way it adds considerably to the cost of the deck - and there is no point in that for people who have the book and will just throw away the LWB. I would love it if someone could point to a really stunning LWB (not an extended one that's been done in lieu of a book, but a real LITTLE white booklet) to give some model for what really can be done in so little space. Other LWBs I hate (whoops, dislike)? Oh, quite a few I'm afraid... ;-)

contrascarpe	05 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by baba-prague I am thoroughly enjoying writing the companion book for our new deck but almost dreading the LWB. I think whatever one does, it can only be a very pale shadow of the book. But maybe that's just life? It might be possible to make it much longer, but that way it adds considerably to the cost of the deck - and there is no point in that for people who have the book and will just throw away the LWB. baba - I am of the mindset that if a full companion book is available, I don't need the LWB. I purchased the Fey Tarot a couple of months back as a set and it came with a companion book but they left the LWB out, which was fine by me. I can understand where you would have to have an LWB to include with the decks you sell as standalone - as well as having something to give for the odd person here or there who will only buy one deck and who is completely new to Tarot. I guess what I am saying is, the LWB is not important to me anyway but if it were, I could forgive having a crap LWB if there is a companion book available. If someone buys your deck without the companion book, they are probably not a serious student of Tarot and therefore one is forgiven if the LWB contains only a few key words (and since your decks are RWS based, they can be very basic and simple). That being said, I eagerly anticipate your new deck AND your new book. Dan

Jeanette	05 Apr 2004
I just got the Miss Cleo tarot deck, and I looked through the LWB that came with it. It's pretty funny, but I don't think I like it. Apparently there's a video that goes along with the set, too, but I didn't see that when I bid on e-bay. I'm giving this deck to my sister (who uses the Universal RWS) so I think she'll get a big kick out of it.

Nevada	05 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by contrascarpe96 baba - I am of the mindset that if a full companion book is available, I don't need the LWB. I purchased the Fey Tarot a couple of months back as a set and it came with a companion book but they left the LWB out, which was fine by me. Er, sometimes you don't need the full companion book. I was disappointed by the "big" companion book for Tarot of the Old Path, when it turned out to be not much more than a repetition of the same text as the LWB. :( Nevada

contrascarpe	05 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Nevada Er, sometimes you don't need the full companion book. I was disappointed by the "big" companion book for Tarot of the Old Path, when it turned out to be not much more than a repetition of the same text as the LWB. :( Nevada Nevada - You are correct - there are some companion books which are regretful. Basically I was referring to decks which deal with History or Art. The Prague is an example of both - I love learning the history of the city and seeing what the Art means in context with Prague. I tend to gravitate toward these books which are informative about the subject matter the deck deals with, and not "just another Tarot book". There are some companion books which I refer to all the time while there are others that are taking up space in my bookshelves.

ncefafn	05 Apr 2004
I disliked the Napo deck until I read the LWB, and then I hated it! Yuck! I've got that rotten thing stuck in the bottom of a drawer somewhere. Which is not to say that it's not a great deck for trading! :D I just got the Ator deck from Tarot Garden and was surprised to find neither a box nor a LWB with it. Does this deck always come this way? I don't mind so much about the lack of a box, as I keep all the decks I use in bags, but I'd like to see the book to find out why the Queen of Cups and the dispenser of charity in the Six of Pents both have pointy noses instead of bulbous like the rest of the figures. Inquiring minds want to know! Kim

MystiqueMoonlight	05 Apr 2004
Tarot decks come with a LWB? Oh and I thought that was just some extra cardboard inside the box to keep the deck nice and secure within :) I toss the LWB. The contents are about as meaningful as Miss Cleo's "predictions" LOL :)

TemperanceAngel	05 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by MystiqueMoonlight I toss the LWB. The contents are about as meaningful as Miss Cleo's "predictions" LOL :) :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: RWS XTAX

tmgrl2	05 Apr 2004
It took me some time to get up nerve to ask what LWB stood for...so you know how I feel about them...I did glance through my first one...for RW...then went and downloaded all of Thirteen's notes on AT....then bought a bunch of big, colored books on Tarot.... I agree ...the companion book may not be much help... Karen, I sympathize with you as you attempt to write a LWB for your new deck...it's scarey to think one has created something so rich and also, perhaps,a companion book and all the buyer gets is the deck and LWB...EEK! terri

Khatruman	07 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jema The "I am One tarot" has a LWB that is quite awful! Lots of hokus pokus on how tarot came from Moses etc. Enough said. Ohhh, Yeahhhhhh!!! That's right, it DID! I saw it when I was watching The Ten Commandments the other night. Charlton Heston comes up to Yul Brenner and does a reading... "Hmmm, this card means a river of blood, this one is the ten of locusts, ohhh, and here's the Plague of Frogs card!" Needless to say, Brenner made ole Mr. Heston carry those accursed cards out of Egypt. I think he dropped them in the Red Sea by accident when he parted the waters.

Rusty Neon	07 Apr 2004
Luckily the LWB that I hate is one that is not by a list member, or else I wouldn't be allowed to negatively criticize it. The LWB that I hate is the one from the Tarot of the Spirit (U.S. Games). It gives divinatory meanings (that's good!) but unfortunately it doesn't explain ... not even one bit ... why the particular card keywords were chosen or even why one bit of any one card's (non-intuitive) symbolism was chosen by the deck creators. It's a ploy to get us to buy the very expensive companion book for this deck. What is potentially interesting about this deck is how the deck creators customized this deck from the Golden Dawn framework and, needless to say, this deck is almost utterly useless without the LWB. Normally, if a deck is RWS (or GD)inspired, a halfway-decent LWB is 'optional', but not in this case. Come on U.S. Games, you could have thrown a few crumbs for those of us who didn't opt for the book. :)

WalesWoman	07 Apr 2004
Morgan-Greer and it's companion book too! I gave up on trying to interpret this deck with either one. I don't even think the person who wrote the companion book bothered to look at the LWB for it either.

retrokat	12 Apr 2004
Hi all, Karen's point about how much/what to include in so little space is so true. Mine was already pretty big compared to most, was supposed to be about 122 pages, but then I REALLY wanted the art source list in there, so it blew out to 200 pages. Somewhat large. And yet, some people STILL whine about it not having enough of whatever it is they personally want in a LWB. eg, this guy who thinks I didn't put in enough 'effort': http://all78degrees.blogspot.com/2004_04_04_all78degrees_archive.html#108110201900533577 LOL! I reckon anything more than about 20 pages in a LWB is a pretty good bonus :P

jmd	13 Apr 2004
In my view, the 'little white booklets' whether written by members of Aeclectic or not, may tend to ellicit from the new-comer a reliance on what are really, as a consequence of space and 'expectation' as to what they 'ought' to contain, cliché or stereotyped oversimplified explanation for the cards... In that sense, I have not seen any small booklets which avoid this - even if some of their other contained information is wonderful to have.

retrokat	13 Apr 2004
Anyone is welcome to criticise my work, although personally I think 'negative criticism' helps no-one. Positive criticism, on the other hand, is fine and dandy, even helpful. The recent review of my deck on Tarot Passages was very positive, but had some "could have been done better" suggestions. I quite agree with some of Diane Wilkes criticisms - especially re astrological symbols being inconsistently applied (partly because I'm not really 'into' that myself, and partly because I was a bit limited by my source material). I'll try to do better in that regard in my next deck. More research, more hunting for appropriate symbols, maybe including two symbols in the cases where the 'authorities' don't seem to agree... To Rusty Neon and anyone else that feels they can't say what they think about authors/artists work who post on these boards, I reckon it shouldn't make a difference. Criticism should always be given in a fair, balanced and justified way. "I don't like ..." is fine, as it's just your opinion, but "... is a terrible deck" really requires some considerable justification and explanation, I think.

RiccardoLS	14 Apr 2004
I agree with everyone criticizing LS booklets :) And I'm serious. But to do a good LWB (whatever it means) in space limited is really, really difficult. (Baba said that, didn't she?) Even if You really devote a true effort to make a LWB (and why should the editor do that?), can You really create something that is useful to beginners and experts? Something that can work with common (and common changes from place to place) books, and without any outside source? I think that the "bad" LWB are the one that do not even try... to give information. (Or the one that try and hopelessy fails because the writer is not a good "communicator"). See You, Ric

retrokat	14 Apr 2004
Hey Ric-Lo-Sco At least yours cater to speakers of languages other than English :D You're so right, that it's an impossible task. Think how much shorter this thread would be if it was "LWBs you LOVE".

baba-prague	14 Apr 2004
Honestly, if I was working only for people here - or at least those already into tarot - I would forget the LWB and do something much more visual instead. But I actually see people who buy ToP as their first deck (we sell a lot through the Castle Shop here - and many visitors just want a deck, not a book, as a memento of Prague) and they would be bewildered without some sort of basic keywords. I know it seems crude to experts, but at least it gives beginners a place to start (it can also be a useful little memory jogger to carry around - some people here have told me they use ToP LWB in this way). I know Umbrae says throw away the LWB, and it's probably good advice, but the absolute beginner usually hasn't the confidence to do that. If they get to that point later, well that's brilliant of course. I think what's really interesting here is how we are all agreed that it's one of those things that is necessary but that can perhaps never be ideal. I think in the end a good book can do so much more. I find the book writing is mostly a real joy (of course not all the time - like everything there are moments of block or just hard work) and I particularly love the more creative bits - putting in those thoughts I've had in my mind for some time, adding quotes and pictures and now (whoopee!) some really old Louis Wain illustrations that I finally got. But honestly, in contrast I have wracked my brains for a way of making the Baroque Bohemian Cats LWB more interesting and it is HARD in so few pages. It's good to have so many people who have written LWBs commenting here - I think we must all feel much the same. Oh, and yes, I agree that it's great that Lo Scarabeo at least do cater for non English speakers - so far we only translate our LWB into Czech, nothing else.

contrascarpe	14 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by RiccardoLS I agree with everyone criticizing LS booklets :) And I'm serious. But to do a good LWB (whatever it means) in space limited is really, really difficult. (Baba said that, didn't she?) Even if You really devote a true effort to make a LWB (and why should the editor do that?), can You really create something that is useful to beginners and experts? Something that can work with common (and common changes from place to place) books, and without any outside source? I think that the "bad" LWB are the one that do not even try... to give information. (Or the one that try and hopelessy fails because the writer is not a good "communicator"). See You, Ric Ric - I agree on all counts and I know it is probably a financial constraint which results in the multi-language LWB. Many of the LS decks I own are among my favorites and I have actually purchased a couple sight unseen. There are many aspects which make them beautiful but primarily it is because there seems to be tons of deep symbolism in them. I just wish more of the LS decks had more in-depth books available. Dan

contrascarpe	14 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by retrokat Anyone is welcome to criticise my work, although personally I think 'negative criticism' helps no-one. Positive criticism, on the other hand, is fine and dandy, even helpful. The recent review of my deck on Tarot Passages was very positive, but had some "could have been done better" suggestions. I quite agree with some of Diane Wilkes criticisms - especially re astrological symbols being inconsistently applied (partly because I'm not really 'into' that myself, and partly because I was a bit limited by my source material). I'll try to do better in that regard in my next deck. More research, more hunting for appropriate symbols, maybe including two symbols in the cases where the 'authorities' don't seem to agree... To Rusty Neon and anyone else that feels they can't say what they think about authors/artists work who post on these boards, I reckon it shouldn't make a difference. Criticism should always be given in a fair, balanced and justified way. "I don't like ..." is fine, as it's just your opinion, but "... is a terrible deck" really requires some considerable justification and explanation, I think. Kat - Frankly I don't buy too much into any of the suggestions. To me, the beauty of a deck is that it came from the heart and soul of the creator. If it departs from symbolism or tried & true interpretations of cards, so be it. The fact that it CAN be unique is what draws me to a deck. I have been working on more intuitive readings and often do not interpret the same card as most do. By adding your view to a deck, you keep it fresh. Don't change a thing for the next deck - make it how YOU want to make it. Dan

Aure	15 Apr 2004
Does anyone else think that the LWB that comes with Radiant Rider-Waite sucks? I know it is based on Waite's book but still... I found the interpretations weird and nothing like I would interpret the cards. The LWB on Hanson-Roberts by Stuart Kaplan is much better and so is Kat Black's LBB!!!

Ironwing	15 Apr 2004
I have nearly finished a small book to go with my deck, but there will be no LWB. As I see it, those who really want to understand the deck will need background information on the theme, an explanation of symbolism, images and objects, my card interpretations, and a few deck-specific spreads and exercises. Those who aren't interested in this stuff and just want to enjoy the pictures on their own terms (nothing wrong with that!) won't need a LWB. My problem with mass-market LWBs, regardless of publisher, is that they assume that every deck sold is somebody's first exposure to Tarot, so much of the precious space that could be devoted to deck-specific information is wasted on the same introductory stuff over and over. But nobody is going to become a reader with one LWB! Those who are interested will buy a book (or several) and probably more decks. Lorena Ironwing Tarot

RiccardoLS	16 Apr 2004
You reason in that way because You live in the U.S. and You have access to thousand of books and shops. In many other parts of the world book on Tarot are "uncommon" or difficult to find or badly tranlated or whatever. And there is always the casual customer... a person who buys a deck following out curiosity or a fancy of some kind and is not (yet) prepared to tackle the whole Tarot world. On the other side I would hate to buy a product and find that to use it I should buy another... :) So a deck should be at least a minimum "pug and play". And still... there are way to give the basics to a beginner and still give something to an intermediate or expert. It is just difficult... (my two cents)

retrokat	16 Apr 2004
I agree with Ric - doesn't add much size to the box (unless you get carried away and do a 200 page version like some people...). I loved the idea of 'Plug 'n Play' tarot decks - I'm such a geek-girl ;) I always carry my LBB because I find that when I read for newbies, it's good to be able to show them that their own interpretation of the card (based on looking at it) isn't too far from the deck's 'official' meaning - and to show I'm not just making it up as they lay the cards out.

baba-prague	16 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by RiccardoLS And there is always the casual customer... a person who buys a deck following out curiosity or a fancy of some kind and is not (yet) prepared to tackle the whole Tarot world. On the other side I would hate to buy a product and find that to use it I should buy another... :) So a deck should be at least a minimum "pug and play". I think this is exactly what I've been trying to say, but you put it better! I know a LWB isn't enough in most cases - but at least it's a start. I do think LWBs should say this though - i.e. not give the impression that they are sufficient but be honest about saying that they are merely a starting point. Then people can decide for themselves whether or not to go into tarot in more depth.

Khatruman	16 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by retrokat Anyone is welcome to criticise my work, although personally I think 'negative criticism' helps no-one. Positive criticism, on the other hand, is fine and dandy, even helpful. ... Criticism should always be given in a fair, balanced and justified way. "I don't like ..." is fine, as it's just your opinion, but "... is a terrible deck" really requires some considerable justification and explanation, I think. The word criticism itself is given too negative a meaning by most people. Many see criticism as a tearing down process and avoid or hate critics because they can't just like a thing. Kat's comments on criticism are very important, and her distinguishing between "positive" and "negative" criticism. I might offer to label them "constructive" and "destructive" criticism, since positive connotes you are going to say all good things. You can give less than optimistic appraisals and still be constructive. One of the methods I use in writing classes is peer editing. I ask students to criticize each others' essay drafts. I must always preface this activity with a lesson on "constructive criticism". If I do not, students become afraid of offending each other and write "nice" comments such as: "good job", "I liked it", "that's great", ad nauseum. The problem with "nice" comments (nice, by the way, is a pet peeve word with me... the word really is empty and says nothing) is that they offer no help to the person who has created it, and really offers no help to the person who has read the criticism in order to decide whether or not to partake in the particular product. Constructive criticism has three criteria. First, it must be constructive: that is, it must be written in language meant to help build and improve the work, not tear it down (destructive). Suggestions on what could have been done better are constructive; comments on how badly something was done are destructive. Second, it must be specific. A comment at the end, such as "that was good," is meaningless, unless you feel you just want to give the creator a pat on the back. If I am the creator, I want to know what was good. What worked? What stood out for you? I tell critics that you are giving the creator so much more with a specific comment rather than a general appraisal. Third, make sure you include comments about what worked as well as what needed to be improved. The creator gets as much from knowing where they succeeded as they do from where they didn't. My absolute favorite movie critic is Roger Ebert. Whenever he reviews a movie, whether he likes it or not, he gives evidence to support his assessment. He takes in mind tastes in cinema other than his own and evaluates it on the merits of how well it accomplishes what it seemed set out to accomplish. Perhaps he doesn't enjoy slasher movies, but he will give positive commentary to a slasher film if is accomplishes its goals well.

contrascarpe	16 Apr 2004
Wow - Three posts in a row from my three favorite deck publishers! Kind of like a Tarot All-Star gathering. I agree with baba - my only problem is when there is no separate book and the information on the LWB is scant. I love Ric's decks and am finding that the info on the Majors on the LWB are brilliant. The accompanying book for the Fey is wonderful as well - but I have a wishlist of books I would love for the LS decks (Bruegel, Durer, Bosch, Journey to the Orient, etc.). I have already gushed over Kat's and Baba's books and decks, but can continue here if you like :) Dan

Khatruman	16 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by RiccardoLS And there is always the casual customer... a person who buys a deck following out curiosity or a fancy of some kind and is not (yet) prepared to tackle the whole Tarot world. Thank you for pointing this out, Riccardo. I get like some of the other diehard tarotists in here and wonder why decks and their paraphenalia aren't designed exactly as we want them. I forget to step back and realize how someone new to the field might be and what their needs are. Indeed it is a fine art to balance the needs of the expert and the initiate. My accolades for all you do, and for putting your ear to the masses and asking what it is we look for in LWBs. Thank you, Riccardo, kat, baba-prague and all other creators who listen and speak and interact with us tarot nuts...:D

retrokat	16 Apr 2004
LOL! Tarot Allstars indeed. Do we get a uniform and play Charity Games? ;)

contrascarpe	16 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by retrokat LOL! Tarot Allstars indeed. Do we get a uniform and play Charity Games? ;) Sure but I have to warn you, if I am recruited as a cheerleader I don't look good in a skirt - plus I refuse to shave my legs (or my beard!). Dan

baba-prague	16 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by tmgrl2 Karen, I sympathize with you as you attempt to write a LWB for your new deck...it's scarey to think one has created something so rich and also, perhaps,a companion book and all the buyer gets is the deck and LWB...EEK! terri Yes, but I try not to think too much about that. We deliberately priced Tarot of Prague originally (first edition) to encourage people to buy the book too, because I think the cards are just so much more meaningful once you know where the images are from. But even so, here in Prague we sell far more of the separate deck than the set - I think because it's easy for people to take home some decks, the sets take up much more space in a suitcase. I just have to hope that the LWB gives them enough to at least be meaningful. But for many of these people I guess they just look at the pictures and that's fine too. Perhaps after a while they will get curious about what it all means?...

baba-prague	16 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Khatruman Thank you, Riccardo, kat, baba-prague and all other creators who listen and speak and interact with us tarot nuts...:D I think it may be more a case of tarot nuts interacting with other tarot nuts you know :-) I did moan at length last Christmas about the tarot party I was invited to at which the reader simply read out from a simple book - a Thoth book though she was using a RWS deck (eeek!) and greeted me with the memorable words "Do you know anything about tarot? Well, don't be afraid, just look up the meanings in this little book" LOLOLOLOL Have to say at the time I had a lot of trouble not intervening. Especially when she said to someone "Ah, the Hanged Man, well, never mind it doesn't always mean death".... (never again - but boy, was it an insight into the dangers of short, bad booklets)

darwinia	15 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Ironwing so much of the precious space that could be devoted to deck-specific information is wasted on the same introductory stuff over and over I agree. I have been endlessly frustrated by the few Lo Scarabeo art decks I bought that neglected to cite art references in the LWB. The Giotto and the Leonardo da Vinci being the two I own. Their new Tarot of the Animal Lords is a great deck and has an ill-deserved reputation for cuteness, but LS included no references to the secondary images of flora and fauna, which might have solidified the depth of the art. I don't know how a publisher could pay an artist for such detailed and imaginative work and then give no details on what images and symbols are in the artwork.

janomalee	15 May 2004
LWB's seem to be a necessary evil. I never look at them unless I am completely perplexed by a card and then I never remember what the LWB said.

Woof	15 May 2004
I hate the LWB with the Hadar Marseilles. It's in French........... I don't read French........... It might be great. I hate it that I can't tell! I e-mailed his web site for an English copy but never heard back. :( At least when you know it's bad you can just toss it! Woof

The LWBs you hate (make Umbrae's day!) thread was originally posted on 05 Apr 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.