Pierre de Lasenic and Tarot
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 02 Apr 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| Kiama |
02 Apr 2004 |
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Hi all,
Due to a a new deck I got recently, I have become interested in Pierre de Lasenic, but because all the information I found on the net about him is in Czech, I don't know where to start.
I know he was born in the 20th century (1938?) and he created the Lasenic Tarot, or at least drew the sketches that have become the Lasenic Tarot. Apparantly he was also an occultist as accomplished as Crowley, but not as well-heard of.
I'd love to know more about him, mostly about his work in the occult, and what affect this had on his view of Tarot.
Can anybody help?
Blessings,
Kiama
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| Le_Corsair |
02 Apr 2004 |
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There's some information about Lasenic in Baba-Prague's companion book to the Tarot of Prague. I imagine Karen will post shortly with more information.
Bob :THERM
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| baba-prague |
02 Apr 2004 |
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I'll try. I really do need to find the time to attempt to work my way through books written by Lasenic - but they are all in Czech. By the way, his deck is in the first volume of Kaplan (whoops, or second volume? I need to check) but if you have the current edition you will find it varies in small subtle ways from the pictures in Kaplan. I have never heard any explanation of this.
Here is a picture and biography - but in Czech of course. I will try to do at least a summary of it when I can. Meanwhile, well he was born in April 1900 and died in 1940, as the result of lung damage inflicted by a sandstorm he was trapped in in the Valley of Kings in Egypt (he was apparently doing research).
http://www.volny.cz/minormajor/02lasenic.htm
The deck was first published in 1938. It is heavily influenced by Masonic symbolism - but I think someone like Diana will be able to say far more about this than I could.
Lasenic (real name Petr Kohout) was one of the founders of the Czech esoteric society Universalia. It has strong links with alchemy, but again, others are far more expert on this than I am.
He published fairly extensively - and the books sound fascinating. Here is a list, with my (bad) translation:
Sexuální magie (1933; Trigon 1992) Sexual Magic
Egyptské hieroglyfy a jejich filosofie (1935) The Philosophy of Egyptian Hieroglyphs
Hermes Trismegistos a jeho zasvěcení (1936; Trigon 1991) The Initiation sites of Hermes Trismegistos
Alchymie, její teorie a praxe (Universalia 1936, Půdorys 1997) Theory and practice of Alchemy
Hermetická iniciace Universalismu na základě systému rhodostaurotického (1937; Trigon 1990)
The Hermetic initiations of Universalia based on the system of Rods (? not sure about this - it is more complex than "Rods" in fact)
Tarot, klíč k iniciaci (1938-39; Trigon 1994) Tarot, the key to the initiation
Like Kiama, I would be very pleased if anyone could add more. The publishers, Trogon, are a little, er, odd by reputation. I may try again to talk to them, but may not get far.
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| Cerulean |
02 Apr 2004 |
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If you have an Oswald Wirth deck or can find the designs, there's a similiarity in the majors at least in my eyes.
Other than that, I'm also in the dark.
Mari H.
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| Diana |
03 Apr 2004 |
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Originally posted by Mari_Hoshizaki
If you have an Oswald Wirth deck or can find the designs, there's a similiarity in the majors at least in my eyes.
Most definitely. Lasenic drew heavily from this deck for his. A lot of FreeMasonry stuff. Which a FreeMason could tell us about if they weren't so damn secretive.
Arthur Waite also copied lots of stuff from the Oswald Wirth deck. But few people know that. And I don't think he advertised this fact widely.
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| baba-prague |
03 Apr 2004 |
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Although this only mentions Universalia in passing, it gives some useful context:
http://www.freemasonrytoday.com/prague.shtml
I think I do need to find some time, later in the year, to properly research all this. One issue is that in Prague this quickly leads to conversations with practising alchemists - not the kind of conversation to have until you are really pretty knowledgeable (I've read a fair few texts, but nothing like these people - some of whom are very serious indeed).
Freemasonry/alchemy? Well here they are particularly intertwined, and of course with Rosicrucianism too.
There are layers and layers in Prague. Once you begin unpeeling one it just leads to more...
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| baba-prague |
03 Apr 2004 |
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Aha! At last, an article in English that talks about Lasenic (the first one I've found after many, many searches - maybe I've been searching on the wrong keywords):
http://www.truthseekers.freeserve.co.uk/truth/TR14ALES.HTM
Please do tell me what you make of it (I found it a very variable article, some of it made me wince, other bits are much more interesting).
________
edited to say, by the way, I have to point this quote out:
"Petr Kohout z Lasenice - Lasanek founded a lodge called Uwlihous and he was of the opinion all this knowledge should be removed from the public and kept for only a small amount of people."
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| Cerulean |
03 Apr 2004 |
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to actually be open-minded.
Unfortunately I've not been in the situations or environment that touches upon his experiences and so what he is saying is beyond my comprehension of that period of history.
I thought perhaps it is a translation to English in a mode that I am unfamiliar. Does some of his historical references ring true to anyone, at least from what they've read of the subjects he speaks about...that is why I am bewildered.
I've only looked at my grandparental or parental aspects of history of the 20th century from the Asian or Asian-American aspects, so the references are so unfamiliar to my framework.
The young student was familiar with Catholic Christianity, but not probably not Protestant Christianity, especially Wesleyn Methodism. I've had some exposure to both and I think Robert Place has a great tarot that draws some parallels, but it's not as close in my understanding as the interview of this Czech student suggests...of course I can get tangled in the mass of details. I was bewildered at the bigger statements about Buddhism being close to Christianity and the suggestion there was reincarnation taught at some very early stage of Christianity. Obviously there is detail that I am unfamiliar with, me being very unenlightened about freemasonary and other things the gentleman was discussing...
Mari H.
Thanks for the reference, I will look at it more carefully in the coming week.
Mari H.
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| jmd |
04 Apr 2004 |
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I'm not really sure how to contribute to this thread...
Firstly, I know very little regarding Lasenic, and am limited to the information which has already been mentioned - and some of it is also new to me, so thankyou baba-prague.
With regards to his view that esoteric knowledge should be removed from public view, there are a number of possible reasons for this, but certainly the experiences surrounding the second world war would only have further directed many in that direction - and that is the period we are talking about.
Following a reversed and 'opening-out' trend in the post-first world war era, many would have felt that part of the causes in the second world war were, at a deeper level, caused by having made certain knowledge 'freely' available, without the training which would have been viewed should properly also accompany any mere knowledge. Ie, knowledge, without the aptitude to transfigure the same to understanding and wisdom, leads to gross errors of judgement.
With regards to the deck incorporating masonic symbolism, it undoubtedly does, but not in any way which is either 'hidden' or mysteriously confounding.
Firstly, it undoubtedly follows in many ways the works of E. Levi, as well as the representations from the Wirth deck. If we also remember that Wirth was a (founding) member of the Kabbalistic Order of the Rose Cross, an order founded in the same year as the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn - but with quite a different impulse and differing views as to which correlations are esoterically correct, and if we also further take into consideration the contacts which are said to have occured between Czech, Russian and French esotericists of the period, then some of the images, as well as the likely 'raison d'etre' of the Lodge formed by Lasenic, can be seen as arising from these cross-currents.
With specific regards to Masonic symbolism, many decks produced last century have incorporated various elements, including the RWCS. Whether these reflect Masonry I would say, along with many Masons also interested in various esoteric matters, that they do not... except in the looser sense of reflecting either the human condition and initiatory process, or in depicting in symbolic ways allegories to be unveiled by the user, ideally with the appropriate keys slowly themselves unveiled by reflection on the rituals and symbols used.
As I look through the cards, only the Emperor stands in a way which clearly signifies or indicates that there is more than meets the eye: he stands in a pose long used to indicate that here is a Freemason. But this is not secret Masonic stuff, and numerous Americans (and especially Americans, it seems) are depicted in this very pose, often pointing (in order for the pointing to partly make sense) to a map.
Whoever said that the map is not the journey is also in this instance so correct.
Between the 1860s and the 1930s, an immense number of esoterically inclined Lodges were deployed. They consisted of quasi-masonic rituals, blended with kabbalistic, hermetic and alchemical investigations and applications. Some lodges (or Colleges) took directions more reflective and meditative, others more practical.
Undoubtedly, in the Czech Republic as elsewhere, even single Colleges also had their individual initiates who took various routes, and complemented the work of their Fratres (& Sorores in some cases). Does this mean the deck is full of esoteric symbolism ? Yes and no.
Yes, for any Tarot which is going to maintain its 'tarot-ness' and reflect the esoteric work of its designer is going to be modified precisely, and only, in ways which will be considered a fitting rendition.
No, if what one is looking for are the specific Masonic or other College/Lodge initiatic representations. The experiential is different to the symbolic, and the symbolic, even more so than any modifications to any ritual, will reflect in succinct and myriad ways fundamentals which are deceptively 'obvious' - such as the four elements; the letters of the Hebrew alphabet; ...or indeed the Tarot.
If one wants to make careful observations, then a few indications in the deck may suggest - and remind the initiate - of certain elements. For example, take any card upon which is a tyled floor, and observe how things are located. Again for example, observe that the Papess/High Priestess (un-named in the deck) sits not between, but in front of one of two pillars. Is she about to question the aspirant, and then allow him or her to pass and render the veil... and thus begin (Beth) his initiatory journey, having successfully answered the elemental question s/he would have been told to study beforehand (Magician/ Alef)!?
As to the link and the interview, it does seem to reflect more the recent formation of a group which seeks to work in particular very 'modern' (mention is made of the age of Aquarius, which I tend to agree with some we do not enter for another 300 or so years - even if some of its pull we are beginning to sense into) ways than be in any but the most general way associated with the Lodge Lasenic would have been involved in.
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| baba-prague |
04 Apr 2004 |
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Mari and JMD, thanks for two very interesting posts - both very helpful. I've embedded my comments on JMD's posts -
With regards to his view that esoteric knowledge should be removed from public view, there are a number of possible reasons for this, but certainly the experiences surrounding the second world war would only have further directed many in that direction - and that is the period we are talking about.
> I agree with this. I think the problem, however, may be that if the current Universalia follow this belief, then it may be awfully hard to get much information.
With regards to the deck incorporating masonic symbolism, it undoubtedly does, but not in any way which is either 'hidden' or mysteriously confounding.
> I think this is also true - and good to point out. However, I am NOT any expert on Freemasonry, so have to take someone else's judgement on this one.
Between the 1860s and the 1930s, an immense number of esoterically inclined Lodges were deployed. They consisted of quasi-masonic rituals, blended with kabbalistic, hermetic and alchemical investigations and applications. Some lodges (or Colleges) took directions more reflective and meditative, others more practical.
> As far as I understand, Universalia - the hermetic society Lasenic helped to found - and the lodge that he founded are different things. I imagine (but have no evidence) that there must have been a lot of overlap. Universalia has a strong reputation - in many ways equivalent in respect to the Golden Dawn. But of course it was all stopped (or all went underground, who is to know) rather abruptly with the war and post-war events.
As to the link and the interview, it does seem to reflect more the recent formation of a group
> yes, I found the interview a weird mix of "New Age Gobbledygook" with some more interesting stuff (the reference to Prague being saved in the event of the apocalypse interested me because verbally I've been told this several times - I would love to know where this belief comes from and how old it really is. I suspect it is not all that old, but could be wrong).
The interview disappointed me on the whole because I assumed that the new Universalia here was quite a serious academic organisation (they helped to organise a conference here some years ago which was supposed to be pretty good) so I was surprised to find such muddled references. However, so far it's about the only thing I can find that makes ANY reference to Lasenic in English, so it's at least a starting point. I am really hoping that someone here on AT will suddenly uncover some information - like a book about Lasenic in English (which would be great) - because otherwise I think all this will call for some substantial translation, which personally I could not do (my Czech is quite bad).
The only thing I would add is that there are some very odd rumours around Prague about all this. Prague is the kind of place where rumours about subjects like alchemy can be quite rife (no, that isn't so odd when you bear in mind we are surrounded, in the centre, with references to alchemy - partly just tourist stuff and partly real historical reference). I would like to begin to sort the fact out from the rumour at some point. But I think that would be a seriously demanding undertaking.
Lasenic was in many ways a superbly romantic figure, so of course rumours will abound. I would love to know a lot more about the realities.
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| jmd |
04 Apr 2004 |
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If you refer to the Alchemical Conference which occured in Prague about ten(?) years ago, then there is more avalaible in English... I'll have to dig through my shelves, but there is certainly a book on Alchemy &/or Rosicrucianism which arises from that Conference. I cannot specifically recall any mention of Lasenic, but will check... when I have the time.
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| baba-prague |
04 Apr 2004 |
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Do you have the book that was produced as part of that conference? Also, did you go? It was in 1997 I think. I would really like a copy of the book.
It was part-organised (and maybe part-funded?) by Universalia.
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/prague_c.html
I have gone through the alchemical website archive (very active around the time of this conference, but now defunct) and found no reference to Lasenic.
One of the frustrating things you get told here - frustrating because there is no way of knowing if it's true - is that the practising alchemists here have a habit of appearing to be very open, but in fact deliberately lead newcomers up the garden path by telling them a lot of rubbish. I have a feeling you either get involved in a very serious way, or forget it.
The Lasenic deck is one of those very intriguing things that draws you in, then doesn't seemingly take you much further.
Probably in the end, Trigon the publisher is the place to start...
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| Umbrae |
04 Apr 2004 |
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Originally posted by Diana
...Which a FreeMason could tell us about if they weren't so damn secretive.
Even our secrets are known. There are no secrets.
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| Cerulean |
15 Apr 2004 |
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Since design wise, I see the Oswald Wirth characteristics in the Lasenic, I was also curious if an early crossroad of Marseilles and Swiss design could also be vaguely or directly be seen in both the Oswald Wirth and Lasenic.
I've been checking out Katherine Raine's small book of Yeats, Tarot and the Golden Dawn. The picture of Yeats deck was the Dotti Tarot, but the pictures of Mrs. Yeats tarot looked like the Swiss Marseilles circa 1804 by the Hanged Man--here's a link that shows the Swiss Marseilles:
www.trigono.com/tarots/tarocco-marsigliese-svizzero.htm
When I looked at the Magician it really reminded me of a cruder edition of the Oswald Wirth and it became in my mind, a tarot crossroads to compare with the prettier version of the Oswald Wirth available in the paperback book by Elisabeth Haich:
www.themysticeye.com/pics/wisdom.htm
Maybe nothing will come of it more than a fun slant on Oswald Wirth's designs and a heightened respect for the crossroads between the Swiss and Marseilles designs.
But then I may see echoes of the 1804 Marsiglia in the Oswald Wirth and maybe I'll also see similar touches in Lasenic designs. The coloring of the Lasenic sometimes reminds of the light green and pinks of the Dotti already...here's the black and white Lasenic majors:
www.volny.cz/minormajor/06tarotlasenic.htm
Sorry if I'm babbling. I'm very curious as I've found much delight in a mixed design with a proto Marseilles and nonstandard iconography in the Vievielle so far...and I'm hoping to explore the crossroads that might touch on Wirth and Swiss and Marseilles and maybe Lasenic if I stretch it.
Mari H.
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| Diana |
16 Apr 2004 |
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Originally posted by Cerulean
Since design wise, I see the Oswald Wirth characteristics in the Lasenic, I was also curious if an early crossroad of Marseilles and Swiss design could also be vaguely or directly be seen in both the Oswald Wirth and Lasenic.
Cerulean: Maybe I am not understanding your question.... but of course Oswald Wirth was influenced by the Tarot of Marseille. What else would he have been influenced by? :confused:
And Lasenic was influenced by Wirth... so the original inspiration for his deck was also the Marseille which I am absolutely certain he studied, probably deeply. He could not NOT have studied it. Any serious Tarot designer has to study the Marseille because it's where one discovers the Original .... well, original something or other, call it what you will. (Spark??)
(The Swiss design is just another variation of the Marseille.)
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The Pierre de Lasenic and Tarot thread was originally posted on 02 Apr 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.
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