roman numerals pet peeve!!!

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 04 Apr 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

laura_borealis	04 Apr 2004
One of my silly pet peeves is roman numerals on major arcana cards. Roman numerals are almost never used in any other area of 21st century life... except for a few small uses, they've been functionally obsolete for over a thousand years. Why do tarot card makers insist on using them?! I have such a block with roman numerals. I can't just look at them and know what they are. I have to puzzle them out and it's a ridiculously long process for me. ("Okay, XVII... X is 10... V is five, or is it the other way around? No, that's right... so XV is fifteen, so XVII... sixteen, seventeen. Curse this slavish insistance on an outmoded numeric system!") :P It's probably part and parcel with my general math block (I am miserable with anything but simple math functions). But I wish that more decks used the hindu/arabic-derived numeral system that is commonly used in modern life. Anyone with me, or am I just a blockhead for not "getting" roman numerals? :D

ros	04 Apr 2004
Roman numerals depends on the day I'm having. Somedays are right on & somedays I can't tell one letter from the next. (I hate when that happens!) I could live without them. I find the numerology aspect would be easier for the majors.

miss_apples	04 Apr 2004
Im with ya on that one Laura. I spend more time figuring out the roman numeral on the card than I do inturpreting the card....lol.

lark	04 Apr 2004
That was one of the first things I loved about my Robin Wood deck NO ROMAN NUMERALS!!! YAH! What a relief....:) Laura.......two words for you Sharpie Marker :D

Le_Corsair	04 Apr 2004
It doesn't help that there is inconsistency in the Roman numeral system, either; some decks use the more modern subtractive system, some use the older additive system, and at least one deck, the 1JJ Swiss, uses both. :laugh: And I'm not even Roman! (I'm not Arabic either, but those are the numerals they taught us in kindergarten.) :D Bob :THERM

Star Spirit	04 Apr 2004
:) I learned Roman Numerals in the seventh grade and I've never forgotten them, so they don't bother me. I DO however, have a roman numerals pet peeve when it comes to tarot cards. I think it has to do with the inconsistent systems that Le_Corsair mentioned, but the one I learned is the one you see everywhere nowadays so it must be the more recent system, and I even see new decks coming out using systems I don't understand. For example, ones are only supposed to be used 3 at a time. So III is three, but with four you subtract one from five, so it would be IV, and five is V. So it should be: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10) However I've noticed on some tarot decks that they take it one step further. Like for the Sun, which is supposed to be IXX (19) they will instead number it XVIIII. Which is essentially the same thing but it's not supposed to be that way in my eyes, and sometimes the print is smaller so when you have that many I's in a row it's hard to count them correctly. It just makes it longer! I've even see some that do it backwards in the other direction, for example the Moon, which is supposed to XVIII (18) I've seen as IIXX. Which again is essentially the same thing but that's incorrect in my eyes...and it just confuses me when I'm trying to read it. Hmm you guys are going to think I'm nuts haha...

Osher	04 Apr 2004
I actually quite like the Roman numeral system (OK, you want to use the Hebrew numbering system instread?), except that, there are modern variations on it (try the ROMAN function in Excel, there are 6 different ways Excel will convert for you!). Still, personally I'd rather we based our numbering system on 12 not 10 digits. 12 just seems more 'human'. I know, I know, 10 fingers etc (although Anne Bolyn had 11). Er, returning to cards, hmmm, I prefer cards using Roman numerals.

Silverlotus	04 Apr 2004
I like Roman numerals to. But that probably has something to do with the fact that Arabic numbers tend to talk to me, and so far Roman numerals have been silent... Yeah, I'm weird.

Umbrae	04 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Silverlotus ...has something to do with the fact that Arabic numbers tend to talk to me, and so far Roman numerals have been silent... Yeah, I'm weird. Not weird at all. I prefer Roman Numerals.

laura_borealis	04 Apr 2004
Arabic numerals talk to you? I've always felt they have personalities -- a touch of synesthesia there -- but I've never had them talk to me...

Silverlotus	04 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by laura_borealis Arabic numerals talk to you? I've always felt they have personalities -- a touch of synesthesia there -- but I've never had them talk to me... Ummm... yes they do talk to me, in a way. For example, 5 and 7 don't like each other... :| I guess it is more a feeling, personalities like you say. It is hard to explain, actually.

Rusty Neon	04 Apr 2004
The cards have different numerical inter-relationships depending on whether you use Roman numerals vs. Arabic numerals. For example, with Arabic numerals: 2, 11, 20 could be seen as a set 2, 12 could be seen as a set 2, 3, 12 could be seen as a set For example, with Roman numerals II, VII, XII, XVII could be seen as a set

Umbrae	04 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Rusty Neon The cards have different numerical inter-relationships depending on whether you use Roman numerals vs. Arabic numerals. I understand that this is a nothing more than a variance of opinion, but I see a vast difference between numerals, and numbers. Numerals are nothing more than a representation of the number value – and meaning comes from the value – not the ink representing it.

smokey	05 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by lark Laura.......two words for you Sharpie Marker :D [/b] HA! HA! HA!

Macavity	05 Apr 2004
I think they are e.g. an unambiguous, shorthand for the Major arcana? ... Otherwise, I'd have to distinguish my (Hebrew) "Hehs" from my "Cheths" etc. (And be able to draw them too!) :D For card designers a bit of a pain? Just remember... enough space for "XVIII" in the titles? }) Macavity P.S. I must admit to making little (paper!) "flash-cards" with (among others) Roman numerals. Draw a card and try to remember (sic) what the Major card is... repeat ad nauseum! ;)

smleite	05 Apr 2004
Ah, in my country we learn roman numerals, maybe not in kindergarten, but at least when we are around six years old! Roman numerals are used in lots of clocks, don’t you have those? I think I learned roman numerals when I learned to see the hours! About the numbers in Tarot decks, the use of IIII instead of IV, or XVIIII instead of XIX (the way I learned) is a bit hard to read without some thought, but this was really the way it was done in ancient times. Now, what is important to me about the use of roman numerals is the pictorial quality they have: they are not “just numbers”, but also symbols! This can be seen, for instance, in cards like The Fortune Wheel, depicting an X - see what I mean? As another example, the X in the Two of Wands (in TdM) is for me very important, and means something like the marking of a spot… And the relation between the four first cards, present in the use of I, II, III and IIII, is again, at least to me, a very important one! It gives you an important “hint” about the inner nature of Tarot as being related to Man’s path in the material world, and this precious insight would be somehow lost with the use of IV instead of IIII. Not to speak about the use of 1, 2, 3, 4!! As I see it, the roman numerals are part of a sacred language.

Savoyali	05 Apr 2004
I like 'em :) But then, I learnt the subtractive version in school (my 19 would also be XIX rather than IXX, btw). Also, my tarot journal is full of them, as I've used them as shorthand for the majors right from the start. Plus, they cater to my romantic notions, where Arabic numbers = normal/mundane, but Roman numerals = instant flight of fantasy :D The additive version tends to throw me off, too, though ::lol::

laura_borealis	05 Apr 2004
:) You pro-roman numeral people have given me something to think about. I will probably continue to be frustrated with them (my math block!) but I'll try to see them as more than an irritation. ;) As far as clocks with roman numerals go -- yes, we have them, but with a clock face one has only to glance at it and note the hand position. I don't even notice whether the numbers are roman or arabic. Telling time feels intuitive, though it's probably just an effect of lifelong practice. But if digital clock displays begin using roman numerals, I'll be sunk! :P

laura_borealis	05 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Silverlotus Ummm... yes they do talk to me, in a way. For example, 5 and 7 don't like each other... :| I guess it is more a feeling, personalities like you say. It is hard to explain, actually. Of course... 7 is so aggressive, and really has a bit of a mean streak! *heh* ...really though, that is the way I see 7, and all of the numbers have their own personalities to me. When I was in elementary school, it made math difficult for me. The personality conflicts got in the way of solving equations. I couldn't stand to let poor meek 1 or 4 be bullied by 7 and 9, for example, so I'd deliberately give the wrong answer sometimes. I got past that eventually, but still feel the personalities. I have only explained this successfully to other people who feel the same thing. I do think it's a form of synesthesia, though most of the research I've read has focused more on color synesthetes rather than people like us. Lynda Barry did a cartoon based on something similar (a girl whose letters had personalities, which got in the way of spelling for her) and when I read that, I knew I wasn't alone. It was really kind of affirming to know that. :)

Imagemaker	05 Apr 2004
I'd love it if you'd start a new thread about the personalities of numbers--that would be a nice addition to card meanings --your own form of numerology. Please! If you could list the personality styles of numbers from 0-9 at least? At your leisure :)

laura_borealis	05 Apr 2004
I can do that this evening -- right now I have just realized that I missed my bus to class! :|

Imagemaker	05 Apr 2004
AT tends to have that delaying effect on my activities too. I really need to get going this morning. I'm feeling the pressure of 9 (am) saying, "end this cycle and move on!" IX has that feeling too--drop the I and get on to X. Am I sensing this right?

crystal cove	05 Apr 2004
Seven is aggressive? I'm assuming you mean that its just the label that you have given it. According to my numerology notes seven is: a thinker mystic loner solitary people needs time to meditate and think can't resist a mystery innerwork imagination introspection spiritual input guidance number of perfection As far as roman numerals go, I rather like them. I first learned them in the first grade and there is a focus on them every year thereafter.

Kissa	05 Apr 2004
my two cents... 1) seems that in europe (austria, portugal, uk, france), we tend to bathe young children quite early in the roman numerals... i was probably under 10 when we learned them at school 2) imho, majors cannot be without roman numerals which give them a kind of "grandeur", highness, formality that doesn't need to be used for minors 3) my good friend Diana wrote somewhere that the temperance should be written XIIII and not XIV since Tarot majors are a progression and if you use the substractive version (XIV) it seems you go backwards instead of forwards (progression -> additive system XIIII). i had this in mind when i watched my vetrate/scapini's stained glass for the first time, but was surprised to see 19 written IXX. first time ever i saw it written like this. the way a deck is numbered has a big effect on me, for example, i remembered thinking that the diamond tarot minors are ridiculous but cannot remember why.... i'll check... kissa

laura_borealis	05 Apr 2004
I never learned roman numerals in school. *mind is briefly blown* Cultural difference? Twenty-one -- my number personalities have nothing to do with numerology. I never learned about numerology until I was in my twenties, and I "knew" the personalities of numbers as soon as I learned to write them. Here's an introduction to synesthesia: http://www.mixsig.net/ I'm really excited right at this moment because since learning about synesthesia, I have thought that my number personalities were a form of it; however until I found the above page, the research I had read about it was focused on only on sensory perceptions like colors, smells, and tastes. The above page has confirmed for me that what I have is actually a form of synesthesia. The author of that page shares her number personalities: http://www.mixsig.net/lisa/graphemia/index.php I have a meeting to go to in a few minutes, but later I'll write mine down. Mine are quite different from hers, and I don't have colors or ages. *bounces with excitement* It's a drag I have to go to this meeting, I want to stay online and read! :D

zorya	05 Apr 2004
i prefer roman numerals, mostly because i think they are more aesthetically pleasing. :) i don't know that i agree that it is a cultural thing. i grew up in indiana u.s.a. and i remember being drilled in roman numerals during grade school. i think the difference is probably in learning styles. it's probably easier for those who learn best visually. i can also transliterate hebrew with no problem, but learning to speak other languages is difficult for me. i do something that would probably drive some of you nuts. i do my tarot journalling with both! 1, 2, 3, 4, V, 6, 7, 8, 9, X, 11, XII :laugh:

Imagemaker	05 Apr 2004
Quote: i do my tarot journalling with both! 1, 2, 3, 4, V, 6, 7, 8, 9, X, 11, XII Ah, keep the interlopers confused. Do you number anything else with that mix? And does it vary?

zorya	05 Apr 2004
i just find it quicker to number that way; it's easier to write X then 10, and 7 then VII . lol. my journal is pretty much illegible to anyone but me. :D especially when you toss in the symbols i made up for each of the majors. no, it seldom varies. it's my own shorthand and i use it whenever i'm taking notes in a hurry.

Osher	05 Apr 2004
If you are writing your own journal, you can use whatever numbering system you want, even your own numbers, or a language if you want to be extreme?

Imagemaker	05 Apr 2004
I use symbols for the majors, too--the obvious: a cup (looks like a U on a stick), a pentacle, a diagonal line for a wand, and a diagonal line with a cross-bar (for a hilt) for swords. Speeds up my notes immensely!

SongDeva	06 Apr 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Dead Star However I've noticed on some tarot decks that they take it one step further. Like for the Sun, which is supposed to be IXX (19) they will instead number it XVIIII. Which is essentially the same thing but it's not supposed to be that way in my eyes, and sometimes the print is smaller so when you have that many I's in a row it's hard to count them correctly. It just makes it longer! I've even see some that do it backwards in the other direction, for example the Moon, which is supposed to XVIII (18) I've seen as IIXX. Which again is essentially the same thing but that's incorrect in my eyes...and it just confuses me when I'm trying to read it. I think they are just using Roman numerals wrong. 19 is IXX and 18 is XVIII. I think these occurrences you describe slipped past the editors. Personally, I learned them early on and don't mind them in Tarot. They do piss me off in movies though! You know, way at the end of the credits, they've got something like 1999 written out in Rom.Num. I mean really. If you're trying to figure out what year a movie was made, it's almost impossible unless your can pause it and figure it out. Sheesh. "MCMXCIX" I think that's right but please don't quote me. The 80's were worse: MCMLXXXIX!

The roman numerals pet peeve!!! thread was originally posted on 04 Apr 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.