Agrippa>Decans>Mathers>GD>Waite>Crowley??

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 02 May 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

le pendu	02 May 2004
Please help me understand the "big picture". I'm trying to understand how Waite assigned the DMs that so many of us use. I've been reading Decker and Dummett's "A history of the Occult Tarot" and it mentions in Chapter 5 that Mathers created his pip system by: 1. Associating 1-10 with the sephiroth, aces with Kether, 10 with Malkuth. 2. Then he associated all pips but the aces with the 36 decans of Egyptian astrology, following Paul Christian. 3. He then assigned specific meanings to the cards based on the decans. Some samples of the meanings: Aries / Mars = Dominion = 2 wands Aries / Sun = Established Strenth = 3 wands Aries / Venus = Perfected Work = 4 wands Leo / Saturn = Strife = 5 wands Leo / Jupiter = Victory = 6 wands Leo / Mars = Valour = 7 wands I've read the excellent post where Holmes discusses the decans: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17921&highlight=decans In it JMD linked to a great graphic representation of the decan schema: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/heritage/egyptians2.html Apparently, Agrippa had described the 36 decans in 1531 in his Of Occult Philosophy, Book 2: Celestial Magic, which can be downloaded as PDF here: http://www.rahoorkhuit.net/library/ceremonial/classics/ Look for "Chap. xxxvii. Of the Images of the Faces, and of those Images which are without the Zodiack." On Uri Raz's site there is a comparison between the Agrippa's 32 Decans and the Book of Thoth meanings: http://www.tarot.org.il/English/decans.html So.... It looks to me as if the Mathers' decan DMs played a major role is assigning the DMs to the Waite and Crowley decks. Mathers seems to have used a "standard" decan system and assigned the DMs to it. Did he actually create the keywords? Or am I missing additional pieces of information? For instance, why would Gemini/Sun = Ruin for the 10 swords? Where did he get that? Until now I've been looking to Waite for the answer, but now I realize I need to back up in time. Any thoughts, suggestions, and especially information that would help me understand this would be greatly appreciated. robert

Rusty Neon	02 May 2004
Quote: Originally posted by robertmealing For instance, why would Gemini/Sun = Ruin for the 10 swords? Where did he get that? Until now I've been looking to Waite for the answer, but now I realize I need to back up in time. Waite would have got that from the Golden Dawn. The astrological attribution Sun in Gemini and the keyword Ruin are both from the Golden Dawn's tarot curriculum. That keyword is also consistent with the very negative divinatory meaning given to 10 of Swords by the Etteilla School. The negativity of Swords suit cards may also have a lot to do with traditional Italian cartomancy meanings. Generally, for the pips, the GD looked at the sign + planet + Qabalistic meaning of the card's number on the Tree. And the decans theory throws a fourth variable into the mix. Generally, in the RWS deck, Waite uses GD divinatory meanings for the pip cards, with some Etteilla and other traditional DMs thrown in. However, in the main, if you take the GD titles for the pips and try to reconcile them with the corresponding RWS images, you'll see a good match. As well, if you look at the GD court cards (e.g., Wang's or Ciceros' deck), you'll see the RWS court cards reconcile with them but with esoteric symbolism disguised. Remember, Waite felt bound by oaths of secrecy to the GD, so he didn't reveal all in his book. Look on the RWS as a disguised GD deck and many puzzles will be solved. Good thread! I'll try to get back to it as time permits.

HOLMES	02 May 2004
For instance, why would Gemini/Sun = Ruin for the 10 swords? Where did he get that? Until now I've been looking to Waite for the answer, but now I realize I need to back up in time. as stated there is more then just the decans behind the minor arcana. so while you may have the gemini in the sun, you would also have the kingdom manifested in the mental world , the world of strife. if one equates ego with the mind. the kingdom being sphere ten. logically if the swords is the path of the ego, then the logical result is the destruction of attack thoughts. but waite moved from ten of swords to the ace of swords, and to those who are not aware the ten of swords is the end, but to those who know the ten of swords is just the beginning and the aces of swords is the end result. it is a very good question for the sun in gemini would mean it is the gemini sign , and so with out the qabbalah world and the suit to take into account it would be the equivlent of saying all gemini signs is the ruin of destruction. however if we look deeper perhaps it refers to that we need the gemini energy to overcome the ten of swords energy. and so the picture of the sun coming after the destruction hints at how the gemini will overcome the destruction caused by the mind. on a diffrent theory , schizophrenia being of two minds , and sun in gemini being the only energy to overcome the destruction for it entitles the kingdom of the mental world, it gives a hint as to where the schizophrenia comes . but that is my personal opnion.

le pendu	02 May 2004
Rusty Neon and Holmes, thanks for your suggestions! Rusty Neon: You mention "if you take the GD titles for the pips and try to reconcile them with the corresponding RWS images, you'll see a good match." I guess that's where I am right now.. where did the GD titles come from? I'm under the impression that it was Mathers, but I'm just learning all of this so realize that much of my understanding is elementary and limited. Holmes: As always, your interpretations are thought provoking. You've given me much to consider. I've discovered a little more about Paul Christian and his system of the decans, again thanks to Uri Raz's site. Here is a table of decan DMs, from Paul Christian's The History and Practice of Magic, but not assigned to Tarot Cards: http://www.tarot.org.il/English/PC_decans.html And here is Paul Christian's Rulers of the decans assigned to tarot cards: http://www.tarot.org.il/English/Paul_Christian.html What's interesting is that the assignment of cards differs from Mathers, although they both used the same "Egyptian Astrology" to get Aries:Mars, Sun, Venus.. etc. Also, Decker and Dummet point out that "Christian had previously combined the decans with the numeral cards of the Tarot, but had not assigned specific meanings to the cards, despite an extensive discussion in his Hitorire de la magie." Yet it appears that both of the pieces of information were in the same book. robert

jmd	02 May 2004
The general question Robert asked is one of those for which the details are variously represented according to the various views of various authors. Generally, however, and writing off the top of my head (as I generally do in any case), the sequence is, in my view, a little different to that presented. In the background are certainly, amongst others, Agrippa, Dürer, pseudo-Dionysus, Iamblichus, Trithemius, and various alchemical, Christian, Kabalistic, astrological, and magical tracts. In addition, and importantly, are the two essays included in De Gebelin's encyclopedic Le Monde Primitif. So here is probably the historical place to begin later compilations and overlays which occured. From De Gebelin, we move (instantly) to Etteilla, and his move from his views on divination using 'normal' playing cards to his expansion of the same to Tarot. The next important and influential figure, which gives the impulse (though later changed) to what later became the Golden Dawn, is A. Constant (aka E. Levi). From there, we move to Wescott, then Mathers and the syncretic attempted amalgamations and correlations by the Golden Dawn (Wescott and Mathers were two of the founders of the GD, and basically determined what and how things to be combined). In the meantime, another differing (but cross-fertilising) Orders and individuals also developed E. Levi's work: Stalinas de Pasqually, St Martin, G. Encausse (Papus), and O. Wirth. The writings and works of these also influenced and instructed various considerations by those who came after them... specifically, Crowley, who was also a (later) GD member and later formed his own order (and also took over the English section of the OTO - that's a whole different and emotive episode), and then to Waite, who was also a late GD member, but later moved away and formed his own modified GD order (again an emotive episode). In all the later mix were also some important figures who also played prominantly in the events of the times, though did not have any obvious direct impact on Tarot influence. These included Olcott, Judge and Blavatsky (founders of the Theosophical Society), Yarker and T. Reuss ('collectors', integraters, and founders of various Masonic and quasi-Masonic degrees and orders), and R. Steiner (founder of the Anthroposophical Society). These last group of people had quite an impact as their respective societies integrated, in various effective and perhaps also not-so effective ways, esoteric occidental traditions (with, in each of these cases, various mix of 'eastern' views). These form part of the 'big picture'.... The divinatory meanings incorporated within the Waite Colman Smith deck incorporates, then, some of the considerations as found in the work of Papus (especially), itself influenced by Eteilla and specific considerations of the Martinists and Levi. In addition, the peculiar and very specific astrological and Kabalistic correlations made by Wescott and Mathers and incorporated as Golden Dawn teachings are also reflected therein. Essentially, there are four overlays: how they have decided for the cards to be placed on the (Kircher version) of the Tree of Life; how they have decided each of the cards will relate to either Hebrew letter or part of the tetragrammaton (YHVH); how they have decided each of the cards will be placed on a zodiacal wheel having specific decans marked; ...and, with regards to the suits, how they were already determined to reflect 'strife', 'luciferic', and other general tendencies or qualities as understood by previous authors or within various Orders. From this, and then also co-joining Kabalistic general considerations derived from the Zohar and especially the Sefer Yetzirah, as well as general considerations of specific astrological views, the rest tends to follow. The basic transitive rule they applied was that if A=B and B=C, then A must equal C. So as they associated the Hermit with Yod, and as Yod was associated with Virgo in the Sefer Yetzirah, the Hermit became associated with Virgo in their specific system. Similarly with the pips. It isn't solely a matter of decan association (where all one needs to do is write the numbers 2-10 in each quadrant of the wheel, and then determine which suit by the elemental attributions allocated to, respectively, the sign and the suit), but also by looking at what Papus had said of their divinatory meaning. It should also be worth noting that in astrology there was also an important revival and various considerations being made, and new forms developed.

The Agrippa>Decans>Mathers>GD>Waite>Crowley?? thread was originally posted on 02 May 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.