Swords
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 30 May 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| Niomi |
30 May 2004 |
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One of my chief fascinations in tarot is the interaction of the elements and numbers. When examining the swords, I think the element of air, the element of thought, academia, logic, and strategy. Those are admiral qualities in a person. Why does the suit of swords appear so grizzly? Is the tarot implying a dislike against the element of air?
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| jmd |
30 May 2004 |
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Rusty Neon has indeed provided the link to a wonderful thread which has addressed some similar questions over the past year (Swords-intellect or conflict?).
It is also interesting that you describe the suit as 'grisly' - presumably, bringing to mind either some form of horror or fear or disgust.
Yet, I personally do not find this in the suit at all. Of course, if one uses a deck which, rather than illustrating it with the appropriate number of implements, supplemented by floral and other emblems, it instead scenically depicts the cards (as in the popular WCS deck), then the suit's view as grisly takes on those shades.
Of itself, however, swords - though designed, after all, as weapon - may also depict protection and the regal passion of overseeing and sensing into one's environment.
The presumed correlation with the element of Air is another with which I personally disagree. For myself, IF AN ELEMENTAL ATTRIBUTION IS DESIRED - which it need not intrinsically be - then the element of Fire seems to better suit.
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| cartarum |
01 Jun 2004 |
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i agree that the sword cards are quite grizly, but assigning elements to the cards and the suits, although interesting has absolutely no bearing on reading the cards. its just pointless. like assigning zodiac signs or tree of life pathways. its not necesary.
the sword courts are given a bad rap, but for the reason that we need to be able to identify the cold hearted bitch, the posessive husband, the brave teenager, and the observent one. its no personal vendetta, i think. the sword courts have alot going for them too. like brains; at least three times more likely to out strategize any other court. with the exception of the king of pentacles. most swords are good looking too. in fact, every natural queen of swords i ever met was beautiful, tall and thin.
plus most of them had red or dirty blond hair.
sword cards walk with severity. they are raised by swords, so become swords. its a brutal cycle. and its never ending. the brilliant potential of the page of swords magnified by his parents tendency to hide or disipline emotions. he becomes a king when he too finally kills the emotions that have done nothing but cause him pain. so, over all the sword courts have the crappiest childhoods. but they were created strong enough to take this.
all in all, i respect sword courts for their reliable strength, and brains.
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| tao51 |
30 Jun 2004 |
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are keen intellect. They express themselves without pretencse. Truth can be brutal. --Tao
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| Satori |
30 Jun 2004 |
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Originally posted by cartarum
i agree that the sword cards are quite grizly, but assigning most swords are good looking too. in fact, every natural queen of swords i ever met was beautiful, tall and thin.
plus most of them had red or dirty blond hair.
sword cards walk with severity. they are raised by swords, so become swords. its a brutal cycle. and its never ending. the brilliant potential of the page of swords magnified by his parents tendency to hide or disipline emotions. he becomes a king when he too finally kills the emotions that have done nothing but cause him pain. so, over all the sword courts have the crappiest childhoods. but they were created strong enough to take this.
all in all, i respect sword courts for their reliable strength, and brains.
They sound Vulcan, which would work with jmd's elemental commentary, beings of fire, particularly red headed.
However, I've been reared so far on Swords as air and now, trying to get into the Nigel Jackson deck (illustrated pips plus the proper number of magical implements to boot) I am having the Devil's own time with figuring out how to read swords as fire and wands as air! I'm having a mental block over it.
Any suggestions? Is this the right thread for the question?
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| jmd |
30 Jun 2004 |
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For better or worse, I had kept a working copy of the two posts made on the 26th of June in this thread.
I post them again (except for a two-sentence short paragraph which too specifically referred to some posts now unfortunately absent) for the sake of ongoing discussions:
When one is having a verbal argument, the similarity to air is the verbal aspect, the argumentative side to fire (passion). Leaving one's sword at the door, then, may indeed refer to leaving one's fiery element at the entrance in order for one to engage in discussions without the intrusion of the sword entering conversation.
The various stories which include swords may as easily (to my reflections, more easily) relate that aspect to fiery qualities than to air ones.
A fire within the confines of the hearth is likewise as safe as a sword hanging above the mantlepiece - yet each may, in similarly metaphorical sense, rage and be wielded in utter destructive impulses.
Swords may certainly be correlated to the element of Fire - as well as, as has been done by others, to the element of Air, or of Water, or of Earth... each with appropriately seemingly good grounds.
A perhaps useful task is also to see how swords can be correlated to each of the elements, for then its elemental attribution(s) become better understood, and not limited to the writings and reflections others have made.
_____
To add to the example of the 'safe fire', I would of course feel perfectly safe about leaving a fire 'within the confines' of the hearth. Not placing a screen on an open fireplace, or closing the door of a combustion chambered wood heater, is of course unsafe, as is a sharp sword laying about with children playing.
I personally agree that how one says something may reflect qualities of fire (like wielding a sword?) or water (the emotive aspect?), and what you have to say reflects, similarly, air-type qualities (like the movement of a plume or pen).
The disagreement is to whether or not the mind, thinking and words have aspects to which swords may be contrasted, or alternatively which are sword-like. In metaphor, one can always find some similarities - hence also why Air is at times attributed to the suit of Cups.
I agree with you, also, that this argument has been discussed many times before - and it seems that some hold strongly to various views, or have particular insights which directs one in particular ways.
Frequency also brought another aspect, with regards to magical implements, to virtually argue against Sword as Fire by 'forcing' the list of implements to prevent an otherwise complement of four. I could just as easily list a chalice from which to drink, a fire set upon an altar, and the magical wand - this last as Air, bringing a full fourfold complement of elements.
For myself, I suppose that the various traditions which link Fire and Swords together only adds to its appropriateness.
Within the more traditional form, the Michaelic Fire and Sword imagery is a wonderful example, as is, of course, the Genesis fiery sword which turns every way to guard the way to the garden of Eden.
Even in other traditions, of course, there is relevance: in Tibet, there is the Fire Sword to cut through ignorance and wordly attachment; and amongst some of the various pagan views mentioned by Frequency, at least some also have a clarity of correspondence between Fire and Sword (see this site and this one for two examples - I realise others reverse these, as other sites plainly illustrate).
...and then, on a more jovial note, there is this Fire Sword. ;)
For myself, and as often mentioned, I tend to prefer to consider the implement and its usage, rather than assume an elemental attribution.
It is not a matter of convincing each other, but of, I also would have hoped, unveiling both our various views and also the suit at hand. In this case, swords.
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| Satori |
30 Jun 2004 |
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Thank you jmd.
I had read the thread this was posted in previously.
I will give the elements of fire and air as they correspond (or don't) to swords and wands some further thought.
In the meantime, I am quite happy that the wands in my Robin Wood Tarot are made of metal and are associated with the element of fire.
The Nigel Jackson tarot was a gift and I find it very beautiful. I had not expected to have such trouble with the switch in the correspondance, but I did. Perhaps that is my answer....
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The Swords thread was originally posted on 30 May 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.
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