All about Knaves/Princesses

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 14 Jun 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Kittaine	14 Jun 2004
I read the thread about "Horses" or Knights and found it really helpful. I always get a block when those knights come out in my readings. Knaves/Princesses are another one of those cards that just leave me O_O I haven't done readings in awhile (like for two months), and I feel rusty and useless. Sooo...inspired by Indigo Rose's thread (was it Indigo Rose?) , I'm gonna start warming up with these Knaves... Whenever Knaves come out in readings, I always associate them with children, childishness, immaturity...and that's about it. I don't have a clear definition of them with respect to the suits. And my head hurts too much to really delve deeper into it. Help, anyone? Please? :D

Kiama	14 Jun 2004
I associate them with the element of Earth, and therefore the First Stirrings of whatever their suit represents (e.g. First Stirrings of... Cups- emotions, romance, love, feelings. First Stirrings of... Wands- the self, the ego, sexuality, adventure.) Kiama

Kittaine	14 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama I associate them with the element of Earth, and therefore the First Stirrings of whatever their suit represents (e.g. First Stirrings of... Cups- emotions, romance, love, feelings. First Stirrings of... Wands- the self, the ego, sexuality, adventure.) Kiama That's very interesting. But then, how would you differentiate the Knaves from the Aces?

HudsonGray	15 Jun 2004
I think they'd be more person oriented (or self oriented) than task oriented. Would this be right?

Kiama	15 Jun 2004
Hi Kittaine, I differentiate the Knaves from the Aces, because to me the Knaves/First Stirrings are more about discovering, whilst the Aces are that raw power to be discovered. In other words, the Aces are the raw 'element' or 'essence' of that suit, and all that entails. So, Ace of Wands- Fire. The Phallus. Dynamism, creation, action, passion. Etc etc. Page/Knave of Wands- First Stirrings of Passion, first stirrings of the self and sexuality. Whereas the Ace would be a fairly neutral card that could be changed to fit the other cards surrounding it (e.g. applying the raw concept of action/passion to the question) the Page of Wands is saying something more definite about what the querent is doing with that raw energy. (In this case, they may be just discovering their sexual selves, or just discovering how to develop their ego, business skills, creative drive, etc.) Hope this helps, Kiama

Luminessence	15 Jun 2004
This is how I see the court cards: The young cards (Page/Knave/Princess and Knight) have scattered and unfocused energy. The mature cards (Queen and King) have focused and directed energy. The female cards (Page/Knave/Princess and Queen) take energy in and use their energy in the inner world. The male cards (Knight and King) send energy out and use their energy in the outer world. And the type of energy they're dealing with depends on their suit. So the Page of Swords is a person who eagerly absorbs a lot of information but without any real order to it, and who forms hasty opinions, whereas the Knight of Swords tries to convert other people to his way of thinking. The Knight is sending the energy of the suit out into the world, while the Page is taking it in and using it in the inner world. I hope this helps :)

Inana	15 Jun 2004
Luminessence, I like a lot the way you have described the energy of each type. This is how i see the pages/princesses: Pages are learners, seekers, students. So they are always oriented to the future and starters of inner changes. Their social range is an inferior one and their position is dependant. They are expected to be submissive and to follow the rules. Because of their inexperience, pages are receptive and more open minded than the other courts, but also more vulnerable and easier to manipulate. Pages seek to: explore, observe, gain knowledge and gather information, experiment and practice. They are still discovering themselves and their abilities. About the aces-pages subject, I’ve seen many people associates the knaves with aces, same as queens with the empress or kings with the emperor. Anyone links the pages to the Magician?

Luminessence	15 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Inana About the aces-pages subject, I’ve seen many people associates the knaves with aces, same as queens with the empress or kings with the emperor. It's funny, because I was just thinking the other day about the relationship between the Court Cards and the Aces, but I was associating the Kings with the Aces. The way I see it, Aces represent the raw potential of their suit. Kings, like Aces, are a pure expression of the energy of their suit, but in them the raw energy has been focused and refined to its highest potential. I'm not sure I would associate Pages with the Magician. I think Knights would work better with the Magician, and Pages with the Fool.

Inana	15 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Luminessence The way I see it, Aces represent the raw potential of their suit. Kings, like Aces, are a pure expression of the energy of their suit, but in them the raw energy has been focused and refined to its highest potential. Never have thought before in associating kings with the aces... interesting. it makes sense since they are the final stage on each suit. Thanks for this idea! I usually have seen the kings linked to the Emperor, as different manifestations from it (focused, fixed, exteriorized, experienced energy). About the Pages and the Magician, it was just crossing my mind, since both seem to be starters, kind of self-centered... Need to think more about this.

Sillanza	17 Jun 2004
I'd always differentiated the energy of the Knaves (knights?) and Aces this way: knave = immature energy as raw material; it demands recognition ("don't you realize," or "get off your butt!") Aces = energy as potential; what you make of it is up to you ("In the offing," or "Have you considered.")

MeeWah	17 Jun 2004
Pages the lowest (though not lowly) common denominator as a fraction or a portion of that raw energy represented by Aces. Also representative of the lowest stage of awareness. Thus they can represent beginnings; change in its earliest stages that could involve some movement; the seedlings or impregnation; messages; children; immaturity. Knights a maturing energy, oft directed by a greater energy source. Representative of a middling stage that has gained a measure of autonomy yet may still seek or require direction; handle challenges. Hence associated with movement or action of the more studied or decisive; those who take their orders or lead from someone else or something. Queens a mature energy with personal power &/or authority. Their stage indicative of an awareness or understanding that wields the power of their suit & manifests the endeavours. Capable of influencing or directing others; to lead. The feminine or yin version of the realized potential of the Aces. Kings similar to Queens in representing personal power &/or authority, but the male or yang version of the realized potential of the Aces.

The All about Knaves/Princesses thread was originally posted on 14 Jun 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.