Tarot in France

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 09 Jun 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

firemaiden	09 Jun 2004
Okay, okay, I just got back from dilly-dallying around France, and I'm a bit disappointed. Well, what did I expect? for little gilded boxes of Tarots de Marseille to come flying down from the sky when I crossed the border? For great libraries of never-before-heard secrets to throw open their hinges, and beckon me inside with a cup of tea and a croissant? Well... I asked my friends if they had a tarot deck, and they emphatically said yes, then produced a deck with clubs, hearts, spades, and diamonds, and 22 imaged cards having nothing whatsoever to do with the 22 arcana. Nothing. I did see Jorodowski's new book being touted on posters in the subway, and it was rather prominently displayed in all the bookstores. I took a trip to the esoterica branch of Chez Gilbert in Paris, and found myself in a very familiar feeling environment of trickling water, and insense, and lots and lots of tarot decks, and lots and lots of books on taromancie. I looked at all of them. Most of them were as nauseatingly patronizing and new agey- press - this-button - pull - this - lever - out - comes enlightenment --- as the books one sees elsewhere. With one exception of course -- the great Meditations on the 22 Arcana by the Anonymous Author whose name is known but not nameable... It was too heavy and too expensive, so I denied myself the pleasure, even though I have been wanting to find it in French for ages. I did see sculpted images on some cathedrals that were very exciting, with reference to the tarot - the day of Judgement of course, on the front of the Cathedral in Metz, and also on the great Cathedral Saint Pierre in Poitiers. Obviously, I didn't stay long enough. I need to go back, and stand in front of the decaying and restored and decaying and restored and decaying and restored cathedrals, and wait and pray, and connect to the great tarotmaster in the sky, and then, maybe the rain of little gold boxes will be upon me...

Imagemaker	09 Jun 2004
Welcome back, we've missed you! Maybe the gilded tarot box you searched for is already inside you . . . maybe there really are no more "directions" than what you've already read. Just a thought.

Moonbow*	09 Jun 2004
Ah.... firemaiden... I have missed your posts..... Shame about the quiet Tarot reception you got in France though! Welcome home, we have plenty of Tarot here for you :D

lark	09 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden With one exception of course -- the great Meditations on the 22 Arcana by the Anonymous Author whose name is known but not nameable... hi firemaiden glad you're back... Who is this guy and why can't we know his name? I want to know.... Am I the only one in the dark about this?

ScarabFlight	09 Jun 2004
I am in the dark too, but then again I only have a hundred and something posts. ;)

Imagemaker	09 Jun 2004
No, it's not you, it's his choice. From the back flap of the book it says: Quote: Anonymity is appropriate to the Hermetic tradition and to the tradition of the Eastern Church. Here it reflects the author's desire not to allow the personal character of what he says to obscure the mysteries of which he speaks. "I am an anonymous author and I remain so in order to be able to be more frank and sincere than is ordinarily permitted to an author." The author wished his work to be published posthumously, thus considering himself to be a friend who speaks to the reader "from beyond the grave." But Firemaiden knows his secret :)

lark	09 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Imagemaker No, it's not you, it's his choice. From the back flap of the book it says: But Firemaiden knows his secret :) Come on Firemaiden give it up.... Where would it be more appropriate than on the worlds best Tarot Forum. :) It's probably the Pope or someone like that hey! Or Carrot Top Or our very own jmd. I almost bought the book but I won't read anything by someone who presumes to remain anonomous. Character, History, Knowledge and Experience speak as loud as words in some cases.

Moongold	09 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by lark Come on Firemaiden give it up.... Where would it be more appropriate than on the worlds best Tarot Forum. :) It's probably the Pope or someone like that hey! Or Carrot Top Or our very own jmd. I almost bought the book but I won't read anything by someone who presumes to remain anonomous. Character, History, Knowledge and Experience speak as loud as words in some cases. Apparently the author of the book died in 1973. I notice that Weiser have listed Robert Powell as the author although he is the translator. The original copyright was held by a man called Martin Kriele in1985, not that this helps. It would be a pity if you did not get the book simply because it is "Anonymous". I find that quite refreshing - the anonymity I mean. The author was not seeking personal recognition by the sound of it - or maybe just low key recognition. :) If people are concerned about authority, the book is well referenced and has the wonderfull style of references appearing where they are made, not in bibliographies at the end of the book. I am getting through the book very slowly and think it is definitely worth getting.

lark	09 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold Apparently the author of the book died in 1973. I notice that Weiser have listed Robert Powell as the author although he is the translator. The original copyright was held by a man called Martin Kriele in1985, not that this helps. It would be a pity if you did not get the book simply because it is "Anonymous". I find that quite refreshing - the anonymity I mean. The author was not seeking personal recognition by the sound of it - or maybe just low key recognition. :) If people are concerned about authority, the book is well referenced and has the wonderfull style of references appearing where they are made, not in bibliographies at the end of the book. I am getting through the book very slowly and think it is definitely worth getting. I'm glad to hear that it is well referenced. Maybe I'll give it another look see. BUT I STILL WANT TO KNOW WHO REALLY WROTE IT.

Umbrae	09 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by lark BUT I STILL WANT TO KNOW WHO REALLY WROTE IT. Hidden, in the Aeclectic Tarot Forum, is his true name. But we who know, cannot divulge such information – the cosmic toaster would fry us in seconds. The truth is an onus. So Firemaiden…did you press - this-button - pull - this - lever – and did enlightenment emerge? WB

firemaiden	09 Jun 2004
Here is a jmd's review and here is another thread which discusses the author. Returning to the subject of Tarot in France -- isn't it interesting that France has kept the game of tarot alive all these years, and yet in a form which is unrecognisable? We owe the continued existence of tarot to France, and yet... Well, is the mystical tradition alive and well?

Moongold	09 Jun 2004
Please delete MG

Moongold	09 Jun 2004
Thanks for the clues. This must be one of the worst kept secrets in literature. But it is good to know and I will look up the author's other works

firemaiden	09 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae So Firemaiden…did you press - this-button - pull - this - lever – and did enlightenment emerge? WB :D Firemaiden pauses to think... what a wonderful question. Did I then? hmm. My mind hung up. Sort of like the computer when you ask it to divide by zero. Is that enlightenment?

Imagemaker	09 Jun 2004
Your mind hung up? Zen practice might say that moment was very, very close to enlightenment :)

Rusty Neon	09 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Moongold Hey ~ my reply referred to lark's post where she specifically said she would not get the book because it was Anonymous :) Thank you - I found the author's name. Now who was he? More searching. Here is some information. I correctly figured he was a Russophone as in _Meditations_ he refers to a tarot book, by a Russian author (Shmakov), that, as far as I know, hasn't been translated into any Western European language. Shmakov's book is a thick tome which I have but probably will never read much of.

Moongold	09 Jun 2004
Thanks, Rusty. I can see the connection with JMD as well - the Steiner connection. I am interested in what a Hermetic Magician is. Moongold

Arnaud	09 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Well... I asked my friends if they had a tarot deck, and they emphatically said yes, then produced a deck with clubs, hearts, spades, and diamonds, and 22 imaged cards having nothing whatsoever to do with the 22 arcana. Nothing. Well you know what, i am in a strange situation today :-) When i was still living in France (three and a half years ago), i was not interested in the divination with the Tarot, but was playing the game of Tarot with the deck you just described, with spades, diamonds etc. Now that i live in Montreal, i becam interested in divination with the Tarot, and i bought divination decks (Thoth, RWS, Voyager and Rohrig being my favorite), but no longer play the game. BUT worst of all, i did not bring my Tarot deck from France, so i can t study the 22 Majors in this deck to see how they relate (or not, as you said) to the Majors i have now come to appreciate ! Hopefully, i will be taking holidays in France in some months, and will check my old Tarot deck in details :-) Arnaud

Rusty Neon	09 Jun 2004
Despite the arrival of the 21st century, the Tarot (and specifically the Tarot de Marseille) remains rooted in France's tradition and heritage. Where else could you see schoolchildren from a mainstream school execute a Tarot deck in class as a group project? http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22277

tmgrl2	09 Jun 2004
Yippeeee! Hoooray!! Firevixen has returned! It hasn't been the same without you, having to SEARCH to find out you were slipping in between cobblestones in your dreams?? We (and I am sure I speak for multitudes here at AT) missed you... I have Meditations on the Tarot...I am starting Chapter 3...and yes, I have read all that stuff about Powell and Steiner and Tomberg ....there is a distinct style to the "translation" similar to one of our own here at AT? It is a lovely book...I am glad I got it in English, since I am wading through bits of Klea and Sedillot and just ordered Jodorowsky's book from Amazon.ca....so I need an English "fix." What exactly were you looking for re the TdM in France??? Hope the rest of the trip went well...share if and when you like... But we are glad you are back... tmgrl

tmgrl2	09 Jun 2004
BTW....jmd gave a link on Christian Hermeticism...it was lovely and I saved it and it is now....GONE...can't find it anymore...did it go by way of the author and become anonymous? terri

Diana	10 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by firemaiden Returning to the subject of Tarot in France -- isn't it interesting that France has kept the game of tarot alive all these years, and yet in a form which is unrecognisable? We owe the continued existence of tarot to France, and yet... Well, is the mystical tradition alive and well? Dearest firemaiden: This just implies once again, that the game of tarot (with a small "t") and the Tarot (with a capital "T") are just distant cousins. They have nothing much to do with each other. The card game and the Tarot are distinct and always have been. Is the mystical tradition alive and well? LOL. You are very funny. Thank you for giving me a laugh and a smile to start my day with. (I mean, with which to start my day. Sentences must not end with a preposition.)

firemaiden	10 Jun 2004
Glad to make you smile, Ma chère Diana :). Well, what I was really trying to say with all this, is , that I was surprised to come across zero people who were interested in anything mystical whatsoever. However I must remind myself, it was in the esoteric book store La Vouivre, where I first encountered mysticism. Tarologue and expert on compagnonages, Jean-Michel Mathonière worked there, in the basement -- I never saw him, but it was his disciples who told me everything they had been learning from him. La Vouivre sits on one of the most haunted parts of Paris. Well, it was haunted then, now a "parking" built inside an adjacent building scared many of the ghosts away... The difference between La Vouivre and the esoteric branch of Gibert is poignant. The tarot books in Gibert seemed all commercial to me-- just written to cash in on a trend, and translated from or following the english tradition. In la Vouivre, are to be found rare dusty works written by actual ghosts... now why is it that I did not go to la Vouivre instead? Perhaps because I knew there would be no tarot decks there. I was hoping to find a copy of the new LS deck, Tarocchi degli Estensi. I may actually have seen it, but it disappeared (was sold) when I turned my back.

Diana	10 Jun 2004
The Tarot gods put a lot of temptations on our paths... so that we will learn to separate the dross from the gold. (Dross : 1) the scum that forms on the surface of molten metal ; 2) waste or foreign matter ; 3) something that is base, trivial, or inferior.) Beware : there is such a thing as Fool’s Gold. « Pyrite, chalcopyrite may also appear gold-like, and weathered biotite mica can mimic flake gold. » (By the way, I am still having a break from Aeclectic. I am not really here. This is just my spirit speaking.)

Major Tom	10 Jun 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana (By the way, I am still having a break from Aeclectic. I am not really here. This is just my spirit speaking.) :laugh: Dearest Diana, your spirit never left Aeclectic. :laugh: Firemaiden - It may be worthwhile to ponder the meaning of the word esoteric. ;)

The Tarot in France thread was originally posted on 09 Jun 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.