Astrology: Just the Facts

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 26 Jul 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Fulgour	26 Jul 2004
I have often heard the question, especially from astrologers, asking what is the connection between Tarot and astrology? My experience has been that when learning how to combine these two disciplines. A beautiful philosophical attitude toward learning in general might be phrased, "Descend to the basics." In other words, simplify. Books on this subject usually go the other way. A case in point: Mercury. There is no logical reason that The Magician should even be considered for this attribution. Zero, none. And yet... So, how do we help someone just learning the basics to understand?

Eco74	26 Jul 2004
Not knowing a lot about what planet is connected with what figure I can only venture a guess... The magician is the "spontanious creator" making something out of nothing. Mercury has also given name to a metal that can be easily manipulated simply using heat and is very quick to respond. This quickness to respond responds quite well with the magicians ability to get "something" from seemingly "nothing". I will definately be looking into these connections more at a later time, but for now I'm busy with learning other aspects of it all..

Fulgour	26 Jul 2004
Based upon the medieval origins of the Tarot, we initially have: Moon Venus Mars Mercury Sun Jupiter Saturn for our basic, traditional planetary attributions, and in that order. The cards that traditionally are assigned planetary designations: The High Priestess: Moon The Empress: Venus The Emperor: Mars Strength: Mercury The Star: Sun Judgement: Jupiter The Fool: Saturn So you can see, getting down to basics is not going to be easy...

Fulgour	26 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Eco74 The magician is the "spontanious creator" making something out of nothing. Mercury has also given name to a metal that can be easily manipulated simply using heat and is very quick to respond. This quickness to respond responds quite well with the magicians ability to get "something" from seemingly "nothing" This is perfectly in keeping with the attributions for Aleph which is letter one, for card one, "The Magician" Aleph means, "I will ~ do thou now!" and signifes Air: Mind.

kwaw	26 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour Based upon the medieval origins of the Tarot, we initially have: Moon Venus Mars Mercury Sun Jupiter Saturn for our basic, traditional planetary attributions, and in that order. Why that order? What is its basis, historic or astrological? Kwaw

Fulgour	26 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by kwaw Why that order? What is its basis, historic or astrological? I am willing to give you 0=1 if you will give me a chance to help a friend who is just learning, and that is simply going to have to mean 1=1.

kwaw	26 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour I am willing to give you 0=1 if you will give me a chance to help a friend who is just learning, and that is simply going to have to mean 1=1 . I am not talking about 1/0 or 1/1, but the astrological order you give: Moon Venus Mars Mercury Sun Jupiter Saturn What are the historical precedents for the use of this particular astrological order? Kwaw

Fulgour	26 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by kwaw Moon Venus Mars Mercury Sun Jupiter Saturn What are the historical precedents...? By standing on the planet Earth, and looking UP one may see this order of the planets, histroically or otherwise. There is no other order in the Tarot unless the convoluted dictates of kabbalah are imposed upon it.

kwaw	26 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour By standing on the planet Earth, and looking UP one may see this order of the planets, histroically or otherwise. There is no other order in the Tarot unless the convoluted dictates of kabbalah are imposed upon it. So you are impressing upon someone you say is a learner a personal interpretation/opinion with little to no historical validity as a matter of 'fact'? Why not say there are variations but this is your personal preference/interpretation? To dictate this is the order and no other to a beginner, when you know perfectly well there are variations and many differences of opinion, seems somewhat dubious to me. Kwaw

Fulgour	26 Jul 2004
There is one rule of courtesy that I think we ought all to honour, and that has to do with respecting the opinions and beliefs of others. I sometimes see people asking questions, and that is all they do, ask questions, no matter who says what, they ask questions... Why? Is it to obliterate the beliefs of anyone who disagrees with them? Just confound every attempt at looking at things in a different way than theirs by asking questions but offering nothing in return... Questions are always welcome, but in the spirit of sharing, why not join in the discussion once and awhile with an idea?

Circe	26 Jul 2004
You don't have to argue about such a matter as this one, it just doesn't bring us to the point :) Fulgour, first of all I want to thank you for your help with this ;) Quoting from Fulgour: "The cards that traditionally are assigned planetary designations: The High Priestess: Moon The Empress: Venus The Emperor: Mars Strength: Mercury The Star: Sun Judgement: Jupiter The Fool: Saturn" [someone has to teach me how to quote this properly as well!lol] I understand all the parallels established between the cards, except for The Fool and Saturn: I usually associate Saturn with the greek god Cronos, master of time. Seems kind of paradoxal, because The Fool is the Beginning, it represents somehow a "time before time" (if we understand time as a sucession of actions) and for Cronos (or Saturn) it has to be a timeline or there would no reason for him to be god :P In other way, The Fool is naďve (in the sense of being unaware and though, pure) and happy, for it doesn't know sadness yet, and Saturn is a planet which rules over compenetration, melancholy and the cicles and learnings of life -> The Fool seems to "green" for so much maturity present in Saturn. Another doubt: what happens when we have people that are represented by The Pope or King of Swords, for example??(cards that don't belong to the group Fulgour referred?) Be happy :)

Alta	26 Jul 2004
I do not think that the planets have any order in the sky. From the point of view of long ago, they were moving on what could be simply the plane of a celestial sphere overhead. And they do move too, so no cause for an order there. Certainly asking questions of one who has stated an opinion is in order. I give many talks and expect questions, comments and outright challenges. Doesn't bother me, that's why I am there talking. One thing I am wondering about, Cronos is not equivalent to Saturn is he? I thought he was Saturn's father and in fact he ate all of his other children and Saturn alone escaped (killed dad to get out I sort of recall). I always figured that was why Saturn was associated with the father and with pain and suffering. Makes me wonder why the Fool would be associated with that. Thoughts?

kwaw	26 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour There is one rule of courtesy that I think we ought all to honour, and that has to do with respecting the opinions and beliefs of others. I sometimes see people asking questions, and that is all they do, ask questions, no matter who says what, they ask questions... Why? Is it to obliterate the beliefs of anyone who disagrees with them? Just confound every attempt at looking at things in a different way than theirs by asking questions but offering nothing in return ... Questions are always welcome, but in the spirit of sharing, why not join in the discussion once and awhile with an idea? If that is aimed at me Fulgour, and I think it is, then I think it is a bit unfair. I have shared many ideas and personal opinions, had them questioned and challenged, as they should be, and responded to such with the best of my ability. You have too shared many very interesting and original ideas, but in my opinion have been totally unable to develop or discuss them or respond to anything that questions or challenges, which I think is a shame because I think many of your ideas are worthy of further development. But such development requires questions, not mere acceptance of what you say. At the same time occassionaly maybe we do need to seed and make more palatable our questioning with a touch of praise and appreciation for a persons creative contributions, something that doesn't happen often enough, but in the lack of which I don't think I am any more guilty than anyone else. To order the planets according to the distance from the earth is in principle in full accord with tradition. Both the Chaldean Order [saturn, jupiter, mars, sun, venus, mercury moon] and the Egytpian order [moon, sun, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter, saturn] are both based upon apparent mean motion and an assumed relationship between such and the distance from earth. And that adjustments are made between sets of correspondences and changes in knowledge of an order is not without precedent. Etteilla's planetary attributions for example are based upon the heliocentric order. I find no objection to such hypothesis, only in the manner in which you present them as matter of fact and without qualification, as if everyone else is wrong; an attitude made worse by your hypersensitivity to being questioned. Your statement that: "There is no other order in the Tarot unless the convoluted dictates of kabbalah are imposed upon it." I find very bizarre, seeing that your attributions constitute, as far as I can tell, a variation on principles rooted in the SY, the source of the principle behind most of the kabbalistic variations. To call them 'phoenician' attributions doesn't alter or disguise that fact. Asking questions is not in order to obliterate, but to develop and expand and invite further elucidation. Of course they will also highlight flaws and weaknesses, but even so, they made lead to further avenues of investigation or inspiration. I do not think asking questions is disrespecful; on the other hand condemning questioning as if it was almost heretical is somewhat iffy, you appear to me to demand of your inspirations, or 'lights', a somewhat godlike authority that cannot be challenged. We do not and cannot question your 'lights' Fulgour, only you. Sorry you find it so offensive. As someone else said, be happy. Kwaw

Fulgour	26 Jul 2004
MOON 384,404 VENUS 38,050,900 (261,039,880 max) MARS 54,510,620 (401,355,980 max) MERCURY 77,269,900 (221,920,880 max) SUN 147,085,800 (152,104,980 max) JUPITER 558,404,520 (968,460,580 max) SATURN 1,195,772,020 (1,658,854,940 max)

Fulgour	26 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by kwaw But such development requires questions, not mere acceptance of what you say. I have heard the same questions so many times I was beginning to believe that the only reason for asking them was to clog the works with endless repetition... here there everywhere, same same all the time, and to what end?!? Is there an answer you wish to bring forward, or are my imaginings so irresistible that I should actually be flattered here... Maybe you're correct, I must have decided that I was going to be right, that I would sit down and look at my deck of cards and find one truth upon which to build my views. That truth is the Phoenician alphabet, but you err to confuse my ideas with kabbalah, or even Hebrew letters. So hurrah for the countless voices of doubt and uninterupted arguments! ...but poor little Tarot, for our cards are hardly a footnote in all of history.

kwaw	26 Jul 2004
Quote: [quoting from fulgour: "the cards that traditionally are assigned planetary designations: the high priestess: moon the empress: venus the emperor: mars strength: mercury the star: sun judgement: jupiter the fool: saturn" [/b] That is one traditional variation of the 'planetary' cards [though not the planets themselfs of course, which is your own variation]. For a fuller list see here: http://www.tarot.com/about-tarot/pdf/chart.gif I haven't checked all the various attributions on this list and cannot vouch for its accuracy, I am not sure for example of the accuracy or source for its Etteilla attributions, which don't match those on my Etteilla deck. Kwaw

Fulgour	26 Jul 2004
The '7 Doubles' in their Alpha-Numeric Order: 2 BETH: The High Priestess: Moon 3 GIMMEL: The Empress: Venus 4 DALETH: The Emperor: Mars 11 KAPH: Strength: Mercury 17 PE: The Star: Sun 20 RES: Judgement: Jupiter 22 TAW: The Fool: Saturn The 'Doubles' are letters that have planetary attributions, and this is what you get if simply let things occur naturally. It's amazing how the numbers actually match the cards.

Fulgour	26 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Marion One thing I am wondering about, Cronos is not equivalent to Saturn is he? Medieval and Renaissance astrology associated the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction with a death of the existing monarch, a period of interregnum, followed by a new ruler. This describes the process whereby the expansion of Jupiter, represented through the emergence of a new leader, results in the contraction of Saturn. The converse would similarly apply. Jupiter and Saturn are thus linked with each other in continuous cycles of expansion and contraction. Jean-Philippe Arzul

lawguy51	26 Jul 2004
No one seems to have mentioned that the Magician is traditionally associated with the god, Hermes, mythological creator of the Tarot deck and a/k/a Mercury. Voila. Now, back to your back and forth... Lawguy51

Eco74	26 Jul 2004
Hermes = Mercury ? Goodness, I´d forgotten about that.. And to think Hermes was my favourite entity when I was into those old religions and faiths some years back. I wonder how much more I've forgotten...? Too much surely. *sigh*

Fulgour	26 Jul 2004
Perhaps the most magical thing about The Magician is that he can be and so is anything and everything desired. He comes to us in the guise of Le Bateleur, which translates as "the tumbler," according to The Encyclopaedia Britannica, which provides this information in regard to an acrobatic African hawk of that name. "Aleph, Beth...," began the ancient alphabets, and so it still does. Aleph comes first and represents Air-Mind ("I will, do thou now"), and then Beth ("dwelling, house, temple") is second, representing a planetary correspondence ~ but which? The Moon is the most logical, its feminine connotations aptly befitting for number Two, the number of duality and the Mother principle. Ah, but no... The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, desiring to create a proper Magus for its gifted members, and wanting Mercury for The Magician, decided that "zero equals one" and so shifted the entire Major Acrana ~ The Fool would become Aleph and go first, and then the second letter Beth's planetary niche would conveniently become available for Mercury, and The Magician. Verily, thrice great Hermes and Thoth himself were thought to represent the embodiment of Mercury, ancient Babylon's Nebo. Still, a careful reading will reveal that The Magician has retained the powers of Aleph and initiation, as well as the might of Mercury. Even the energies of the Sun are often ascribed to this singular card. Three Cheers!

kwaw	28 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour [the high priestess: moon the empress: venus the emperor: mars strength: mercury the star: sun judgement: jupiter the fool: saturn . [/b] This is one [comparatively modern] variation. The other main ones are: The continental tradition [levi, papus, et al] gives cards: II, III, IV, XI, XVII, XX, XXI The English tradition [gd, crowley] gives cards: I, II, III, X, XVI, XIX, XXI. The common basis behind all three sets is an assumed one to one correspondence between the sequence of the Hebrew alphabet and the Tarot sequence, and the match up of those cards that correspond to the seven letters described as double letters in the Sefer Yetzirah to which are attributed the seven planets. The three variations result from the variation in the sequence of the tarot changing according to the position of the fool, at the beginning, between cards XX and XXI or at the end. A second cause of difference is that, although the occultists take the principle of the seven double letters identified in the SY having correspondence with the planets, none of them actually use the planetary attributions given in [any version of] the SY, but make up their own. Kwaw

kwaw	28 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour The '7 Doubles' in their Alpha-Numeric Order: 2 BETH: The High Priestess: Moon 3 GIMMEL: The Empress: Venus 4 DALETH: The Emperor: Mars 11 KAPH: Strength: Mercury 17 PE: The Star: Sun 20 RES: Judgement: Jupiter 22 TAW: The Fool: Saturn The 'Doubles' are letters that have planetary attributions, and this is what you get if simply let things occur naturally. It's amazing how the numbers actually match the cards. Well, in Hebrew Kabbalah, on the authority of the Sefer Yetzira, Resh is counted as a double letter. It is possible that in Hebrew at some point in time Resh did have a double pronounciation, though it is doubtful. There is no doubt what so ever however that Resh is not or has ever been a double letter in any other semitic language. The Phoenician alphabet has only six, not seven double letters, Beit, Gimel, Daleth, Kaph, Pe and Tau. Kwaw

Fulgour	28 Jul 2004
Moon Venus Mars Mercury Sun Jupiter Saturn 1 x 1 = 1 2 x 1 = 2 3 x 2 = 6 4 x 6 = 24 5 x 24 = 120 6 x 120 = 720 7 x 720 = 5040 And so I looked to the heavens for my answer...

Aun	28 Jul 2004
Hi Fulgour According to the zodiacal correspondences assigned by the Golden Dawn: The Emperor: Mars - The Emperor is the zodiacal trump of Aries - Mars is assigned to the Tower Strength: Mercury - Strength is the zodiacal trump of Leo - Mercury is assigned to the Magician The Star: Sun - The Star is the zodiacal trump of Aquarius - The sun is assigned to the Sun Judgement: Jupiter - Judgement is the zodiacal trump of Libra - Jupiter is assigned to the Wheel of Fortune The Fool: Saturn - The Fool has no zodiacal or planetary attributions. He represents the element of Air. - Saturn is assigned to the World With all due respect to your vision/opinion, I'm just wondering where did you take these attributions from?

Macavity	28 Jul 2004
I just look upon correspondence systems as conventions. The merits of adopting a commonly used convention, is simply that other folk have some vague notion as to what I am talking about? (English as she is spoke!) For that reason, I have e.g. adopted the "Golden Dawn" astrological (and other) conventions. It doesn't mean it's the best possible system, just a commonly recognised one! (But it ain't half bad IMO!) }) When one combines divinatory systems, clearly most "meet where they touch" - Rather confirming my expectations! If a correspondence is introduced by design, I'm all for it! But I see little historical evidence of this being the case for most traditional systems. I see these more as a "counterpoint" to the standard attributes, suggesting additional or modified divinatory meanings... But, as the adage: "As above, so below", I see it as pretty much possible to find a "good" correspondence between almost any disparate entities... IF I try hard enough? ;) Another interesting (compelling!) astrological attribution is used e.g. in the Ansata Tarot. Macavity

Fulgour	28 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Macavity But, with the adage "As above, so below", I see it as pretty much possible to find a "good" correspondence between almost any disparate entities... We're moving in good directions, thinking about the origins and meanings of correspondences. My rule of thumb:

Fulgour	29 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Aun With all due respect to your vision/opinion, I'm just wondering where did you take these attributions from? A Complete Guide to the Tarot by Eden Grey was published in 1970. In it she brings together all the best information on Tarot known to her, but in 1971 she published another book, Mastering the Tarot and she throws out almost all of the Golden Dawn's kabbalah-based attributions. Why? They don't stand up to the light of day. They don't hold water. Eden Grey devised a set of correspondences that made sense to her. The correspondences I am suggesting are right outside your window. They are also right there in your hands, all of them, in the cards.

DeLani	29 Jul 2004
So am I correct that prior to the Golden Dawn, the only astrological-Trump correspondence was Etteila? Where can I find his system? Just to add my thoughts to the fray, it seems to me the current GD system is almost entirely contrived to make the Kabballah, Tarot, and astrology fit together. Sometimes it fits, sometimes it don't. Since I don't care about the Kabballah, I pretty much have my own correspondences. I'm no PhD in Tarology, but I think mine are just as valid as Waite's.

cartarum	29 Jul 2004
the magician is the culmination of ones wisdom, wit, knowledge, intellegence, mojo, charisma, religion, and beleifs. archetypically, its someone being themselves. its presence shows that someone is using their god given, and earned ability, to activate the desires of their will. if the fool would leave everything up to god, then the magician is a do it your selfer. case in point; katie, a very attractive australian woman were i work, was using the computer at work. i know she likes me, even though we are both in a relationship. any way, i went up to her, to talk to her. i said some little observation, and she ignored me. you know how it happens, you get obsessed with what ever you are doing, to the exclusion of the outside world. thats were katie was. instead of getting her attention, i went back to my station. as i was leaving, she said did you say something to me? thats the story. she was afraid i would think that she was being ignorant, even though she was just spaced out. instead of being the fool, she was the magician. get it? ~A~

Penelope	30 Jul 2004
I can never understand why people think Etteilla "discovered" the connection between astrology and Tarot, or that it was Levi who "realised" there was a correspondence between the ancient alphabets and the 22 Majors. After the Tarot had been around for so many hundreds of years, these scribblers deserve about as much credit as if they had counted up to ten.

Macavity	30 Jul 2004
Hang on a minute... I'm actually an advocate of convention. (Just to clarify) :D My other reason being that it gives us something to talk about! If everyone makes up their own correspondences and (ever wilder) "meanings" (which they ARE quite entitled to do!) then what DO we all talk about on Tarot forums? }) Macavity

Penelope	30 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Macavity Hang on a minute... I'm actually an advocate of convention. But do you honestly think that if The Empress is Venus, The Emperor can be anything other than Mars? And counting from 1 is conventional.

smleite	30 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Penelope (…) if The Empress is Venus, The Emperor can be anything other than Mars? The Emperor can obviously be “other than Mars”, Mars was by no means the official consort of Venus, and The Emperor is pretty much an official and conventional figure… Silvia

jmd	30 Jul 2004
As Fulgour posted his previous multiplication sequence post, I was completing teaching a three-week block on combinatorics, and of course regaled in his series from 1! to 7! (where the exclamation mark is to be read in its mathematical sense). I personally agree that astrological reflections and letter symbolism predates either Etteilla or his direct predecessors (De Gebelin and C. de Mellet). What is perhaps not as evident, and needs to be further presented, is why or how not so much Venus and Mars may be 'linked' with, respectively, the iconography of the Empress and the Emperor, but rather how, again as an example, Strength can be likewise connected to Mercury, and the Star to the Sun (especially given that there already is a card titled and depicting the Sun). It should be mentioned that I tend to personally agree that the Hebrew (or Phoenician, for that matter) letter correlations as more broadly presented by Mark Filipas do make reasonable suggestions for the correlations presented - and in my view far better ones than those of the Golden Dawn. Yet there are a few which do indeed, on first appearance, seem to better fit elsewhere. For example, if one looks at the Bateleur/Magician, if one considers by which God these were protected, one approaches Mercury. So why Strength and Mercury? As a first step, I can of course easily present the notion that the Bateleur/Magician is a representation of Alef, and thus outside the group of planetary correlations. Still, this will not be sufficient for the person who simply looks at this one card and sees therein iconography which can easily be analogically connected to Mercury. Rather, another point is to be made (which has previously, of course, been made): not a single card, but the whole. The whole not simply as group, but as, also very importantly, sequence. These two (whole and sequence) also imply that order is very important. Interchange two or more cards, and the magic is scrambled... In my view, then, Mars could be connected to a card other than the Emperor if cards are singled and made to be correlated. This method also justifies many of the individual alterations made by various authors and designers. Taken as a whole sequence, however, is there further grounds for the correlations to hold!?

kwaw	30 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Penelope But do you honestly think that if The Empress is Venus, The Emperor can be anything other than Mars? And counting from 1 is conventional . By the same logic, if The Popess is the Moon, how can the Pope be anything other than Saturn? [or the sun, according to a variant pairing]. It fits if we wish to make it, the Holy Father and Holy Mother church. We could also say the GD attribution of Taurus fits, the Moon [papess] being paired with the sign of its exaltation Taurus [pope]. But as JMD says, a good case can be made for a number of various attributions for single cards or pairs, but a symbolism that fits the entire sequence would be the clincher. I don't use any of the standard attributions, my entirely personal set is: Magician - Saturn Papess - Jupiter Empress - Mars Wheel of Fortune - Sun Tower - Venus Sun - Mercury World - Moon Kwaw

Macavity	30 Jul 2004
Well answered (everyone else) :D Thinking honestly, I have no objection to any correpondence being applied. But some might appear ludicrous, while others merely grate a bit? But, sticking with notion of conventions, the very fact that some of them grate makes them... memorable! Me? I rarely forget the sometime association of Chariot with Water, Cancer etc. }) Macavity

Fulgour	30 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd So why Strength and Mercury? It was mostly because of the many variations that I decided to simply choose. At first glance, my Mercury as Strength correspondence is ridiculous, I mean, we're talking Tarot here, but then there's the aspect of Virgo and the (highly puzzling for many, myself included) exaltation of Mercury there. But if you start with Aleph as The Magician, when you get to letters ten and eleven you are looking at ~ a match made in heaven. Letter 17 is Pe and placing the Sun there puts it with 'Ayin ~ upon the arrival of Capricorn. That was a tough one too, then it hit me ~ it's just like Christmas. Right there, smiling, in the dead of Winter. The creators of the Tarot must have had something specific in mind. I'm only trying to find my way, and hopefully share my thoughts here in the spirit of exploration, and not be placed on soley the defensive.

Fulgour	31 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by kwaw I don't use any of the standard attributions, my entirely personal set is: Magician - Saturn Papess - Jupiter Empress - Mars Wheel of Fortune - Sun Tower - Venus Sun - Mercury World - Moon So we are actually in complete agreement, except that you begin with Zero-Aleph and order the planets according to Ptolemy (in descending order towards the Earth, ie; Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon), and I begin with One-Aleph and order the planets according to their verifiable distance from the Earth. How altogether wonderful!

jmd	31 Jul 2004
Fulgour and Penelope, and for the record, I not only highly value precisely that shared exploration which you bring, but also find it personally very refreshing. My question was meant as no more than precisely this further aspect of exploring in various ways what is being brought. I have at various times also considered the 'bare esssentials' of astrological considerations, especially with regards to the ordering of the seven (traditional) planets. If one takes their placement all in one direction from the Earth, these are the order they generate: Saturn Jupiter Mars Sun Mercury Venus Moon Earth In this series - which is better represented by drawing orbits than simply listing them, the 'inner' planets are between Earth and Sun, and the outer ones much further and on the other side of the Sun. Fulgour's list thus draws them when in proximity to the Earth, this list when in single alignment (and all astrologically conjunct). Interestingly, the list is, except for the transposition of Mercury and Venus, the same as the Ptolemaic one - though this latter is based not on orbital distance, but on apparent speed relative background stars. If the order is then applied to the sequence of cards in that order (and using Alef=1=Bateleur), we obtain: Papesse = Moon Empress = Venus Emperor = Mercury Strength = Sun Star = Mars Judgement = Jupiter Fool = Saturn What is also interesting with the list is that some esoteric traditions claim that an interchange occured in the pre-Ptolemaic order between Mercury and Venus - and the list of course provides precisely this interchange, based on more modern astronomical views. Another interesting aspect is if one takes the mean distance of the planets from the Earth (and here I use the figures provided by Fulgour): Moon - 768 808/2 Venus - 299 090 780/2 Mercury - 299 190 780/2 Sun - 299 190 780/2 Mars - 455 866 600/2 Jupiter - 1 526 865 100/2 Saturn - 2 854 626 960/2 Again, this also gives the same order I provided before - just an interesting alternate way of also working with similar models. With this, the Emperor and Mercury do also make some sense, especially if one considers the possible alchemical iconographic aspect inherent in the Emperor card. The possible problem or weakness with this arrangement is that it also, unless I make further comments, also loses what may be reflected in different ways by the other suggestions already made.

Fulgour	01 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd Interestingly, the list is, except for the transposition of Mercury and Venus, the same as the Ptolemaic one - though this latter is based not on orbital distance, but on apparent speed relative background stars. Hoping not to stray too far off topic, let's look at XVII Les Etoiles. A large central Star is surrounded by Seven seemingly lesser stars. I see an artistic interpretation of our solar system, viewed from afar. There "we" are, Earth and the 7 traditional heavenly orbs, seen together. Like a view from beyond beyond, where spirits dwell and are renewed. And so The Star is in fact ourselves, the possessors of the Tarot.

Fulgour	01 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd So why Strength and Mercury? ...Ok, what if the card is actually about the Lion, rather than the Lady?

Penelope	01 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd Another interesting aspect is if one takes the mean distance of the planets from the Earth (and here I use the figures provided by Fulgour): Moon - 768 808/2 Venus - 299 090 780/2 Mercury - 299 190 780/2 Sun - 299 190 780/2 Mars - 455 866 600/2 Jupiter - 1 526 865 100/2 Saturn - 2 854 626 960/2 Again, this also gives the same order I provided before - just an interesting alternate way of also working with similar models. The average motion of a planet during a 24 hour period. Travelling slower than average is a debility. The following list gives the Average Daily Motion of the seven visible planets from a geocentric point of view: Moon 13d 10m 36s Sun 0d 59m 08s Mercury 0d 59m 08s (same as the Sun) Venus 0d 59m 08s (same as the Sun) Mars 0d 31m 27s Jupiter 0d 4m 59s Saturn 0d 2m 1s Note that the Sun, Mercury, and Venus all have the same average daily motion from the viewpoint of geocentric astrology since they all travel together as a group (like a mini-solar system) around the earth, which is the center of the geocentric universe.

kwaw	02 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Penelope Note that the Sun, Mercury, and Venus all have the same average daily motion from the viewpoint of geocentric astrology since they all travel together as a group (like a mini-solar system) around the earth, which is the center of the geocentric universe. This accounts for two variations, the so called Chaldean order and Egyptian order. The names Chaldean and Egyptian are traditional names, which reflects the belief of the Greek astrologers who named them such that these are their origins, which may or may not be historically correct [not according to well respected opinion, though the reasons they give in my opinion are invalid, so the case remains 'open' as far as i am concerned]. The Chaldean Order is Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury and Moon. Planetary rulerships of the decans are based on this order, as are the planetary hours, the source of the planetary rulerships of the days of the week. A couple of things to note about is that prior to it becoming the 'standard' there is evidence that some Greek sources used a version with Mercury and Venus transposed. Also sometimes the order can be read Moon to Saturn, rather than Saturn to Moon. For example, according to Thiery in his 'Greek Qabala', the Chaldean sequence, read Moon to Saturn, was attributed to the seven Greek vowels in alphabetic sequence. The Egyptian order runs Moon, Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn, and is the basis of the sign rulerships running from the lights [cancer,leo] to Saturn [capricorn, aquarius]. Before we seek an order though I think it would be of interest what people think which cards may be attributed to the cards, on a singular basis [that is, without reference to fitting them into any sort of order], and why. For instance, without much difficulty I feel I could argue a planetary correspondence between any particular planet and several cards, for instance: Saturn Magician, Pope, Lovers [at a stretch], Hermit, Wheel of Fortune, Death, Temperance, Devil, World Jupiter Papess, Emperor, Pope, Wheel of Fortune Mars Empress, Emperor, Chariot, Devil, Tower Sun Magician, Emperor [and empress], Chariot, Wheel of Fortune, Strength, Sun Venus Empress, Lovers, Devil, Tower, Star Mercury Magician, Papess, Pope, Hermit, Sun, Judgement, World Moon Fool, Wheel of Fortune, Moon, World Given the flexibility of the symbolism I feel one could argue for a variety of orders, for example from the list above and with a bit of a stretch we may argue for a straightforward correlation for the first seven cards [taken fool as first] and the planets: Fool – Moon Magician – Sun Papess – Mercury Empress – Venus Emperor – Mars Pope – Jupiter Lovers - Saturn Kwaw

Fulgour	02 Aug 2004
from ONE: Elements: 1 13 21 Planets: 2 3 4 11 17 20 22 Houses: 5 6 7 8 9 10 12 14 15 16 18 19 from ZERO: Elements: 0 12 20 Planets: 1 2 3 10 16 19 21 Houses: 4 5 6 7 8 9 11 13 14 15 17 18

smleite	02 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour …Ok, what if the card is actually about the Lion, rather than the Lady? Well, then, this lion is deeply in love. And seriously: is it a green lion you are talking about? From http://www.levity.com/alchemy/herm03.html: “In their books for the curious world, the adepts spoke in symbols. For example, the Stone is made of One Substance. It is a thing that is a simple unity, not a composite. It has equal parts of Earth, Water, Fire, and Air. It possesses equal attributes of heat and cold, moisture and dryness. It arises from liquid and solid Fire. Thus, in the first verse, Hermes calls it the Sun because it is made of Solid Fire; and in the second verse, he calls it the Moon because it is made of Liquid Mercury. Riplaeus calls it the green lion, because it grows more fiery whenever the Celestial Fire is inflamed.” (the bold is mine). The text also refers to the “the form of liquid Mercury or the Moon, representing femininity”. Silvia

kwaw	03 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by kwaw Given the flexibility of the symbolism I feel one could argue for a variety of orders, for example from the list above and with a bit of a stretch we may argue for a straightforward correlation for the first seven cards [taken fool as first] and the planets: Fool – Moon Magician – Sun Papess – Mercury Empress – Venus Emperor – Mars Pope – Jupiter Lovers - Saturn Kwaw [/b] The Egyptian order of Planets associated with the first seven cards: Moon - Matto – Madman, LUNAtic – the dog is frequently associated with the Moon, the only other card in which canines appear is the Moon card, the dog has ripped his trousers revealing his buttocks, so the fool is 'mooning', the association between the buttocks and the moon goes way back among many different cultures. Sun - Magician – Channel of Creative Power, the shape of his body suggests a swastika, a solar symbol. Mercury – Popess, the feminine divine suggestive not only of Ecclesia, Mother Church, but our Lady, Mother of the Lord. Here the 'child' of the Madonna is replaced by a book in her lap, representing Christ as Word, divine Logos, symbolised by Mercury/Hermes/Thoth as symbol of communication, writing, the word. Venus – Empress Mars – Emperor Jupiter – Pope, Jupiter as Patriach, ruler of Sagittarius and Pisces corresponding to the 9th and 12th houses, the religious and spiritual instincts of man. Saturn – Lovers, Saturn is exalted in Libra, ruled by Venus the Goddess of Love and corresponding to the seventh house, the house of marriage and contracts. There are three people [number of saturn], a couple and an older person [saturnine]. Who is the Saturnine figure? A matchmaker perhaps? Love is channelled into a socially functional tool of maintaining social prestige, a way to lead to endurance and stability, the arrangement of dowries, maintenance of the family line, estate, inheritance. The couple of preparing to leave the depency upon their parents to take up their own social responsibilities and the continuation of the family. Penelope may care to note that the two card pairs in this sequence, Popess and Pope, Empress and Emperor, correspond according to this variation with the two planetary pairings Mercury and Jupiter, Venus and Mars. Kwaw

Fulgour	03 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by smleite And seriously: is it a green lion you are talking about? Thank you, but no. As the title is "Force" we may look at the Lion also, yes? The Chariot is but a wagon, and truly we think there mostly of the charioteer. Temperance might be the mysterious liquid, or Justice the sword and scales. The Wheel of Fortune on the Marseille cards is a junky little contraption, and there are three puppets upon it, two like badminton shuttlecocks. And of course, we could make a thousand such distinctions, but I was merely suggesting that the Lion was much more than a bystander.

smleite	03 Aug 2004
Fulgour, It's a refreshing point of view, anyway. Thanks for that. Silvia

Fulgour	07 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by lawguy51 No one seems to have mentioned that the Magician is traditionally associated with the god, Hermes, mythological creator of the Tarot deck and a/k/a Mercury. Voila. I've been hoping you'd come back and tell us which Hermes?

kwaw	08 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by kwaw Given the flexibility of the symbolism I feel one could argue for a variety of orders, for example from the list above and with a bit of a stretch we may argue for a straightforward correlation for the first seven cards [taken fool as first] and the planets: Fool – Moon Magician – Sun Papess – Mercury Empress – Venus Emperor – Mars Pope – Jupiter Lovers - Saturn Kwaw Another order, a subset of the Chaldean, is that simply based on the days of the week, and attested to in some versions of the SY. The double letters, in alphabetic order, are assigned to the days in order, so taking Fool/Magician as Aleph [suggested letter kingship words?]: B= day 1 [sunday] = Sun = Magician/Popess [seed?] G= day 2 [monday] = Moon = Popess/Empress [wisdom?] D= day 3 [tuesday= Mars = Empress/Emperor [life?] K= day 4 [wednesday] = Mercury = Wheel of Fortune/Strength [dominion?] P= day 5 [thursday] = Jupiter = House of God/Star [wealth?] R= day 6 [friday] = Venus = Sun/Judgement [grace?] T= day 7 [saturday] = Saturn = World/Fool [peace?] Kwaw

Fulgour	08 Aug 2004
Moon Venus Mars Mercury Sun Jupiter Saturn and following in order of their appearance: Beth Gimmel Daleth Kaph Pe Res Taw wherein Aleph= Le Bateluer, The Magician and Beth= La Papess, The High Priestess Order of the Chaldean Decanates: Saturn Jupiter Mars Sun Venus Mercury Moon = 7 6 3 5 2 4 1 Kwaw: = 1 5 4 2 3 6 7 = 5 1 3 4 6 2 7 (Well illustrated, once again! Thanks! but... just skipping around the 7-pointed Star...?) golden dawn (thoth standard, most decks): = 4 1 2 6 3 5 7

kwaw	10 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by kwaw P= day 5 [thursday] = Jupiter = House of God [wealth?] Kwaw 'House of God' is a name of the 9th house in astrology, which corresponds to the sign sagittarius, ruled by Jupiter [also called deus pater, corresponding also with zeus pater, deus/dieu as in maison dieu - house of god]. Jupiter was originally a sky god, of heaven, rain, thunder and lightening. Anything struck by lightening was considered sacred to Jupiter. Hence either as House of God or Ligthening Struck Tower there is an association to be made between this card and Jupiter. Kwaw

kwaw	28 Dec 2004
kwaw wrote: 'House of God' is a name of the 9th house in astrology, which corresponds to the sign sagittarius, ruled by Jupiter [also called deus pater, corresponding also with zeus pater, deus/dieu as in maison dieu - house of god] . Jupiter was originally a sky god, of heaven, rain, thunder and lightening. Anything struck by lightening was considered sacred to Jupiter. Hence either as House of God or Ligthening Struck Tower there is an association to be made between this card and Jupiter. Kwaw Another name of this card was also 'sagita' arrow, connecting with saggitarious, ruled by Jupiter, so the title of this card in three variant decks: arrow lightening house of god have jupiterian associations. At the time of these particular decks, only one published system of hebrew letter/planet attributions existed that provides a fit between 'house of god' and jupiter with the tarot sequence on a one to one basis, and that was one based on the days of the week: B=Sunday=Sun G=Monday=Moon D=Tuesday=Mars K=Wednesday=Mercury P=Thursday=Jupiter R=Friday=Venus T=Saturday=Saturn Kwaw

The Astrology: Just the Facts thread was originally posted on 26 Jul 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.