card meanings - absolute truth X subjective view

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 28 Jul 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Aun	28 Jul 2004
I'd like to hear your opinions on this one. My question relies on the unquestionable fact that each reader sees a given card or spread from a different point of view. In this sense, I wonder if when a person draw some cards, the tarot is talking specifically to that person, according to the way he/she envisions and interpret those specific cards. If this is the way it works, does it make sense to ask for advice from other people [edited to add] regarding cards you pulled yourself, since the cards would affect them differently? Or, do the cards bear an 'absolute' message which disregards the vision of the person who pulled the cards?

le pendu	28 Jul 2004
Hi Aun, I think that is a really interesting question. Personally, I don't believe the cards bear any message or power. I believe it is all in the reader who interprets them. robert

Eco74	28 Jul 2004
I think though, that the cards have ways of getting the message through regardless of who reads the cards, and the differences may be in what cards are turned up, and also in how the question is put. So, yes and no. I believe the cards DO hold the true answers to the question, but how it is asked and interpreted (and worded) is very much up to the individual reader. In many cases I think it could be better to ask someone else for advice since having someone else read the cards can give you a fresh view on the issue and gets you out of your own frame of mind enough to give you a more objective view on it all.

blackroseivy	28 Jul 2004
I really feel that your choice of reader is your own intuition working; you need to have that objective viewpoint. Also, if you have some slight difference of opinion with the reader about interpretation of a card - i.e., if you understand better what it represents about your life than they can make out - you can discuss it with them; voila, feedback! This is what makes a 2-way reading so powerful; you still get the more objective viewpoint, & it helps you to put things in more perspective than if you drew the cards yourself. They may just have a fresh insight, as well, that you wouldn't ever have come up with on your own... Just some thoughts!

WolfSpirit	28 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Aun In this sense, I wonder if when a person draw some cards, the tarot is talking specifically to that person, according to the way he/she envisions and interpret those specific cards. If this is the way it works, does it make sense to ask for advice from other people, since the cards would affect them differently? I have been thinking about this too - and I tend to think this is the case, rather than cards having an "absolute truth". To say it simply: "the cards know I always interpret this card with this meaning, and that is why it shows up for me in this position." On the other hand, I do think it helps to read books on tarot - maybe that is to sharpen your mind, to come up with better defined meanings for a card than you did before, so your readings become more precise. I think it is for the greatest part tarot talking specifically to a person, but with an underlying universal system that is "universal tarot". Hope this makes any sense...

Aun	28 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by WolfSpirit I think it is for the greatest part tarot talking specifically to a person, but with an underlying universal system that is "universal tarot". Hope this makes any sense... Thank you all for your opinions. I totally agree with Wolfspirit, his statements says it all... My question originated out of that uncertainty that we all experience when a card seems out of place on a spread. Should I trust my intuition, or should I go by the book? Thats when I leave some options open for the querent (or myself... Go Figure!!)

blackroseivy	28 Jul 2004
I just have one little thing to add: I tend to interpret the cards a little differently each time depending (layout, querent's question, etc.) - I think a lot of people do. So that makes it just that much a little bit trickier when one sticks out like a sore thumb. But I completely know what Wolfspirit means...

Fulgour	29 Jul 2004
As hard as I have worked to understand the basic attributions of the cards, when I am giving a reading it is the cards themselves that do all the talking. The book, along with most of the details of my viewpoint, take second place to the language that can only be heard by listening, to voice of the Tarot.

Kiama	29 Jul 2004
In my experience it has all depended on who one asks to help interpret the cards they have pulled! Sometimes two readers will focus on different nuances of the same card, but that nuance will have a common thread running through it, and in this case what will be gotten is a wider, more detailed view of the card with more perspective on the issue in hand. Other times though, two readers will have completely different views of a card. For instance, the Marseilles reader and the RWS reader may view the 10 of Swords very differently- indeed some may say their differing viewpoints of this card are so diametrically opposed that they cannot be reconciled, and nor do they have a common thread runing through them. In this case, I have found that a different reading entirely can be given by the different person you have asked to help interpret your cards- possibly leading to conflict. But yet at the same time, it possibly leads to that 'aha, now I get it!' moment... So, I guess it depends on the situation and the person you ask. On the general idea of Absolute Truth vs. Subjective View, I think the Tarot- and a reading- encompasses both. The Tarot hints at some absolute truths (and here I take for granted that there is such a thing- there very well may be no absolute truth at all) whilst at the same time being interpreted with a subjective 'twist' or nuance by the reader: because after all, absolute truth, by its very nature, is only comprehensible if we view it in a form we can personally understand. So, we place a subjective face on the absolute truth of the Universe, in an attempt to understand it better. But to add more complexity to the issue, we can possibly say that the Absolute Truth changes from one moment of time to the next- depending on the parameters- in just the same way as there are different levels of meaning to the cards we see in a reading. One reading, we pick up on one aspect of the cards, and therefore one aspect or one part of the Absolute Truth, and in another we see something completely different in the cards, a different part of the Absolute Truth, even though the cards we see are the same. Looked at one way, the Hanged Man is the Mystic. Looked at another way, he is the Dying God. Looked at another way, he is the Traitor. Looked at another way, he is the Sacrifice. Looked at another way, he is the Waiting... Anyone got a useful analogy to help me out here? Kiama

dadsnook2000	29 Jul 2004
There probably isn't an "absolute truth" component in any deck or most cards. However, I don't feel that "truth of design, or truth in a design" is of greatest importance. We all join Aeclectic Tarot and do our various tarot "thing" -- and that is a "common bond" between us. The various decks and books and seminars all work towards creating a COMMON BOND of understanding. It is from this truth, as we learn and assimilate it, that we draw our interpretations. In our individual practices we use our "common knowledge" and our own experience and views to arrive at a reading. The end result is often rewarding, informative, magical and appropriate to the reader and querent. As Major Tom says, "Isn't this a wonderful way to run the universe?" Dave.

blackroseivy	29 Jul 2004
I think that the concept of the concensus is fascinating. As we all learn from (more or less) the same books, or the same pool of common concepts, yet for every individual reading, there will be anything from minute to great variations. This all contributes, a reading at a time, to our understanding. It also mimics life itself - each snowflake that falls is different, & yet the same; the form it takes is always unique, yet is always one more form of the exact same components.

Penelope	30 Jul 2004
To paraphrase Dylan Thomas (on poetry): In the pages of a book is where you examine the works of the Tarot... but when the cards are on the table, however humble, that is where you give the Tarot the works.

Pook	30 Jul 2004
A while back, ros started a great thread called every card has the right answer I think that it realtes to this question and has many of the same answers. Because tarot is, ultimately, a very personal experience each and every time we use it, the cards take on different meanings for each of us. And I'm sure there are times when, during a reading a card comes up and it means something more like the "accepted" version of what the card means than what we have come to expect the card to mean, but it remains that there is some truth held within every card that answers the question at that time. To more directly answer our question, I think it is a combination of commonly accepted meanings and intuitive meanings. There can be no absolute truth for tarot because tarot shows us possibilities...ever changing possibilities. If we dont like the way a reading 'reads', then we know that that is a possibility and that we can take steps to avoid what we have seen. I really hope that no one ever thinks that what they see in a reading is the only way things could happen. Tarot is a tool to change the bad in our lives for good. Hope I wasnt too rambly. :D

Ace	30 Jul 2004
I think that when you read for someone else, you shouldn't look for an "absolute true meaning for the cards" you might miss something much more important! But when you read for yourself, it is too easy to say, "well it Means this......." and not look at what is REALLY going on. So for reading for me, I read the LWB to make sure I am getting the message the cards have for me. That way I don't DENY the message.

cartarum	30 Jul 2004
each card reader most definitely sees the cards differently. much like each of our experiences in life are different from each other. there are just differences in the details. each experience, if categorized according to what one learned, would have its equivalent in another human being, even if the experience is much different. like my friend who would hang out with a rough crowd. one night she got gang raped by her "friends" and left on the street. she survived, to learn that not all people can be trusted, and just because some one acts like a clown, doesent mean they are harmless. another friend heard about what happened, and learned the same lesson, but mildly. this is a loose example, but another girl could have had a close call similar to what my friend experienced, and learned her lesson. the point is, the experience was different, but the result was basicly the same. my meanings of the cards are meant for reading without a question. if you ask a question then there are millions of ways in which one could interpret a single card, just like the i ching. when many authors write meanings they use examples of what the cards could be, in certain contexts. in the context of relationships, the most common, to the concept of temporal mechanics. ~A~

Fulgour	30 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by cartarum each card reader most definitely sees the cards differently... if you ask a question then there are millions of ways in which one could interpret a single card... Look at it as if someone asked you if you would like a drink? With what you know already, you can answer accordingly. To take every possibility into the equation doesn't help. The beauty of it is that things happen only once, maybe just once at a time, but that still makes them different. Be relaxed to trust your own judgement of the outcome.

Khatruman	31 Jul 2004
I have come to the decision that to answer these types of "absolute meaning" questions regarding the tarot involves a an answer that focuses on a key word: reading. If you look at the use of tarot as the performing of readings, then it becomes clear that there will certainly NOT be an absolute meaning to the cards. Imagine this concept of absolutism applied to words in the reading of other types of text, i.e. a short story or poetry. The brilliance of them is that there is an interaction between the reader and the text. Words can have significances to one reader that might never occur to another. I find myself rarely, if ever, looking into dictionaries for meanings to words. Perhaps the greatest resource I find in them is etymology, looking at the background of words and becoming enlightened to the depth of the concept. Take the word inspiration. If you see that its root comes from the Latin "to breathe," you see inspiration as a figurative "breathing in" of ideas from around you, from something spiritual..and there is that root again..the spirit is the invisible breath around us. There are very few significant words which carry an absolute meaning. The only coming to mind are words such as "the" or "a" or prepositions, which work more as signal words to help along the other more significant ones. A tarot reading consists of significance words placed in the syntax of a spread. Words gain meaning in there placement within other words and the total context of the spread. Just as readers can discuss shades of meanings within a poem or short story, so also a reader can discuss with others the shades of meanings within a tarot spread. I understand the appeal of wanting absolutes, in that it makes things so much easier if one can depend on them always being a certain thing, but we do not live in an absolute world. Perhaps we need to find our way out of Plato's cave in order to do so.

Fulgour	31 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Khatruman I have come to the decision that to answer these types of "absolute meaning" questions regarding the tarot involves... an answer that focuses on a key word: reading . And the only way to read the cards is to work, work, and work some more. I'm over the shock of being shown time and again that readings don't ever happen like you might expect. Every time, the cards demand your best, and the beauty and reward is that it's what makes it all worthwhile. I wrote a Tarot prayer a few years ago, after gathering the courage to express my awareness as I understood it then, to be as clear as I could. Each word has special signifance, but the deeper meaning is trust in the help and guidance of my spiritual guardians, and so to fear nothing.

The card meanings - absolute truth X subjective view thread was originally posted on 28 Jul 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.