If Tarot Became 'Hip'...?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 14 Jul 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Kiama	14 Jul 2004
Hi all, Following a recent thread in Tarot Games and Fun (where we saw a photo of Madonna reading Tarot cards) I began to wonder something... It was commented that no doubt if Madonna did have an interest in the cards and showed it, all the fans would probably latch on and do Tarot because it was 'hip' and the 'in thing'. In just the same way, if any celeb showed an interest in Tarot, their fans who admired them would think Tarot 'cool', and do Tarot in order to be 'cool' themselves. I get the feeling most Tarot readers here don't like that idea. But me, I do. And I'd love to discuss this issue. Do you think it would be good or bad for Tarot to suddenly become trendy? A fashion accessory? What would be the advantages and disadvantages? Would it be good or bad for people like us? Looking forward to your replies... Kiama

Imagemaker	14 Jul 2004
Madonna has already done this (generate exposure) for yoga and the Kabbalah--and I think it's ok, in spite of yoga-purists being disgusted with her. Yoga classes have exploded in popularity and press coverage since she and other stars have been vocal about doing it. Out of 100 people who might get involved because of a pop star, a small percentage stay with it and become serious students. The same can be true of tarot. Purists and scholars may hate a cheapening of the study, but I'm confident that the spirit of tarot can take the exposure.

hyatt	14 Jul 2004
I agree. I think that it may open some peoples' minds. A few might stick with it but it might help with the reputation. Ok that sounded funny - Madonna helping with tarots rep, but you know what I mean. Yoga is now more accepted and tarot could be the same.

Flavio	14 Jul 2004
Agree with Imagemaker, only few people would remain students the rest would move on the next trendy thing coming out. I think most of us at AT felt the calling of Tarot at certain moments in our lives and because of that we study, discuss here and practice a lot because we like and love it, people trying to get into Tarot without a real deep motivation might feel dissapointed when realising the amount of information they need to become good readers, for example last weekend a cousin asked me for a reading, after finishing, she confessed to me she would like to learn and start asking me lot of questions, how to learn each card? how many books have you read? etc... after discussing for about 1 hour she said "I thought it was easier"... she lost interest in learning. On the other side... when something becomes popular and demand increases the prices become cheaper :D (think about flat PC monitors and plasma TVs) who wouldn't like to buy lots of decks for less than USD10?

Little Baron	14 Jul 2004
Yes, you are right, Imagemaker. I think that if someone with a profile as big as Madonna (considered to be fashionable on a large scale) did anything - cricket or golf, expressed an interest in knitting or making corn dollies and wicker baskets, there would be an influx of fanatics standing in the sideline, waiting to jump on and emulate their idol through whatever the new venture might be. Like the Kaballah and Yoga, I don't think that experienced tarot students would have anything to worry about; besides, she is just another person developing her interests. It doesn't affect the craft, however much publicity it generates. As people say on here, the dubious personal life of Crowley doesn't always affect peoples perception of his deck or, of course, the tarot. As a popstar, I think that people may consider Madonna to be a fickle spokesperson for either the tarot or the Kaballah, but in the end, it is the personal relationship that that peron has with their chosen beliefs can craft that is important. I suppose it is the fact that she has changed her image so often and moved through different genres that makes people feel she is once again, pulling in a different culture or set of values to enhance her career and image/profile. I don't have a problem with her being a spokesperson or making a craft I am close to 'hip' - or any other star doing that. There is a part of me (hehe) that likes the fact that it is not a 'hip' thing to do and that not everyone does it, but on the other hand, it is nice to dispell the negative ideas that a lot of people have become accustomed to over the tarots history. Great post, Kiama. Yaboot

Little Baron	14 Jul 2004
I can just see it now - 'it' girls and celebs, photographed with their new flashy mobile phones, trendy laptops, designer jewellery and a 'mini leather cased Thoth' under their arms!!!!! lol By the way, before I get shot down, I wasn't suggesting any simularities between Madonna and Crowley, or that she was dubious in any way either, since I do respect her. After that little bit of information I found about her current tour, it will be interesting to see if anything comes from it, since cards were flashed up during the show. I don't suppose anybody knows which deck were used, do they???? Last year, there was an artical in mens Italian Vogue about the tarot, but since I only ever bought the magazine to look at the clothes and cannot read Italian, I don't know what the viewpoint was. Best wishes to you all, Just off to get ready to go out; got my nice new outit to put on and my brand new DKNY tarot to slip in my Dolce and Gabbanna Tarot Bag. hehe

13thFaeChylde	14 Jul 2004
....dear gods...that picture! (must go lie down now)

WolfSpirit	14 Jul 2004
Hm don't like the idea of tarot becoming a fashion statement - in a few years' time people will say: yeah that was my silly spiritual phase, I even had a tarot deck ! As it will be mostly a passing thing, I don't see it as good or bad in the long term. But: in a few years time there will be a lot of second hand decks sold real cheap because they are out of fashion :D

Imagemaker	14 Jul 2004
Quote: brand new DKNY tarot . . . and a Versace and Ralph Lauren and . . . I'm picturing a celeb walking down the red carpet. Joan Rivers rushes out to say, "great dress, but what we really want to know is, what tarot deck are you using now?"

WolfSpirit	14 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by 13thFaeChylde ....dear gods...that picture! (must go lie down now) :laugh: :laugh: She really likes to use all the cards in the deck, doesn't she ?

krysia322	14 Jul 2004
I don't think there's any cause for concern; those who are serious about it will stick with it, and those who don't will put up their decks on eBay. A plus would be that those who could be serious about it, who might not otherwise look into the tarot due to whatever reasons (some people, like my husband, are squeemish about it, but he's getting better ;)), might be able to do so more freely than they would have otherwise. But, LMAO at the image of the following: The Mary-Kate & Ashley Olsen Tarot (tarot for teens!) The Bratz Tarot (comes with its own silky, sparkly bag!) The Hilton Sisters' Tarot (with additional Nicole Ritchie card) The "I Love the 80s" Tarot (et al) The E! Entertainment Tarot Gangstas' Tarot Tarot of Da Bling-Bling And so on. Although, I wouldn't be crushed if someone created a Brad Pitt tarot deck. ;)

DarkElectric	14 Jul 2004
I think it could go either way, especially concerning Madonna. I'm sure that she still has a contingent of what used to be known as " Madonna Wannabes", who tried to do just about everything she did (or as much as they dared!). They might be soccer moms now, but I do believe they're still around! Possibly some of these people may still go in for whatever she does, and there are probably several Yoga instructors now who are blessing her name, because their client base has increased. If she could do that for Tarot, and I'd get more clients too, because of it... I admit it. I'd rather have Madonna as a celebrity spokesperson than...Miss Cleo. Madonna has a LOT more cred. I have sort of a twisted respect for Madonna. On one hand, I feel she may have gone a bit too far in the sex department. On the other, no one can say that anyone else exploited her. She exploited herself, and took control of the process. And I think she did a better job of it than any man ever could. She went straight to the heart of steamy sexuality, and threw it right at ya. I consider her to be truly amazing. Whatever her detractors might say about her, she is definitely a trailblazer. I respect and admire that, all my distinctly prudish elements notwithstanding! As far as Tarot, Yoga, and Kaballah, it looks to me as if she's doing for the arcane arts what she did for sexuality~ bringing it out for people to discover. And enjoy. Taboos are all in the mind, and she has a lot of courage. I also believe she's a lot smarter than many give her credit for being. I've always thought that this stuff IS hip, that it's been cool forever, and Madonna is only introducing to the "people" that which we, who delve into the esoteric arts, knew all along. There will, probably, be those trendies who will pick up on tarot "Because Madonna does it" for a little while, then drop out and onto the next fad, as Imagemaker said. But I also think that she'll lead some true seekers to their path. In my opinion, it doesn't matter who you ask for directions along the way, as long as you get there. If she's able to provide information to massive numbers of people because of her popularity, as long as her message doesn't become garbled by misunderstanding, fear, and sensationalism, I say, Right On Madonna.

laura_borealis	14 Jul 2004
You've got to be kidding me. Dear gods... It looks like some of her fans have already conflated her image with that of tarot. :P In this one she's the Queen of Pentacles.

Diana	14 Jul 2004
If it brings me more clients, I'm all for it. I need the money. Am not too worried about the Tarot of Marseilles becoming "hip". I think it is not something that can go in and out of fashion - it's been around for too many centuries for that.

DeLani	14 Jul 2004
I agree with what's been said - it's great to get it out of the closet, so it can gain more recognition and credibility. And, of course, put more money in our pockets! But I also see the downside of when it goes out of style. Those of us who are still reading, or practicing Wicca, or whatever the fad was, will be looked down on. Supposedly more mature people will laugh dismissively, roll their eyes, "oh, I remember when all that was so cool. I've *grown* since then..." *sigh* never mind that we were doing it long before the fad. (sing along: "I was reading, when reading wan't cool...") It's already starting with Wicca. I go to another forum where the owner was once a Wiccan (or "vaguely Pagan" or something), and she's pretty dismissive of anyone still "in that mode." But, I don't have my beliefs and practices in order to be cool, or liked by everyone. If we take an even longer view, we'll be the elders and teachers of the next generation. (at least we can hope).

SongDeva	14 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Imagemaker Madonna has already done this (generate exposure) for yoga and the Kabbalah--and I think it's ok, in spite of yoga-purists being disgusted with her. Purists always spoil the party.

SongDeva	14 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by hyatt I agree. I think that it may open some peoples' minds. A few might stick with it but it might help with the reputation. Not to mention all the cheap sets that would appear on eBay once those who don't stick with it give it up. *gleefully rubbing hands*

rota	14 Jul 2004
What if tarot were even more popular? Well, what if we compare it to gay marriage, which suddenly in the last couple of years has become a political issue: we see acceptance and support for it among people who aren't gay, because they can see the larger picture of individual sovereignty at stake, and we see a stiffening of resolve among those whose minds are closed. Something similar might happen if tarot were to become part of the mainstream. Or, what if we compared tarot to the latest underground indie pop band that suddenly got record deals and a tv show? Along with the noise and visibility of the latest fashionable band, we'd also see a certain disappointment from the favored few who knew the band's work before they 'sold out'. I'm not sure I see a downside if tarot were to become hip n' groovy... except possibly from the Taliban, or the current Taliban administration. We forget that the wider knowledge we pursue used to be punishable by death or banishment. That's not so now, thank heaven, and I hope it remains so.

raeanne	14 Jul 2004
Hi all, Well, if tarot became hip, there would have to be a "reality" TV show about it. Something similar to American Idol or Last Comic Standing would be good. Maybe World Seer?

Flavio	14 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by raeanne Hi all, Well, if tarot became hip, there would have to be a "reality" TV show about it. Something similar to American Idol or Last Comic Standing would be good. Maybe World Seer? :D We could see the contestants attending lectures of high profile tarot masters... that is nice, learning from the show, and actually getting some benefit besides light entertainment.

Imagemaker	14 Jul 2004
But reality TV has to have danger, hunger, bikinis, eating disgusting objects, and MUCH sexual innuendo. Tarot would have to walk the edge of decorum and sense, and fall off on the wrong side a lot. People living in a locked house dressed as tarot characters? With assignments to lure, entrap, and gross out the others for large sums of prize money?

spoonbender	14 Jul 2004
Madonna? Isn't it Esther now :rolleyes:?... I'm not so sure if it would be a good thing. I haven't met anyone who thought Tarot was evil or "the picturebook of the devil" - on the other hand, I have met a lot of people who think it's plain stupid to waste your time at "fortune telling" with a bunch of cards. And I don't think anyone will look at Tarot more seriously just because Madonna uses it - in the contrary: I'm afraid Tarot would just become a dumb phase without any credibility, more so than it is thought to be now. Spoonbender

inanna_tarot	14 Jul 2004
Well, although i cant stand too much media attention to paganism (coz they nearly always make us look like tree hugging nutters,, ok we are but i dont wanna see that on telly!)... i am actually liking tarot getting some airtime. I wouldnt have to feel funny about having a deck in my bag if it was the in thing this summer.. i can see it now, people comparing decks in the summer sun, having tarot meets in coffee houses and pubs and a DG tarot bag!!! Oh my goodness, it would be like heaven. And, people with the brains will stay and i'll have more people to talk tarot with and it would be AMAZING.. Okay its a dream world but there we are lol Sezo x

Diana	14 Jul 2004
I wonder, did Ms. Cleo help or harm the Tarot? Can the American members give their opinion here? Didn't she make Tarot a bit "hip"?

Alissa	14 Jul 2004
You know, that's funny... because I actually use Madonna as the example of how henna body art became popularized in the United States in the late 1990s. From my young adult lecture series : Now, Madonna has done a great service to henna, and a great disservice to henna, in my opinion. The service is the celebrity she brought to this tradition, which exposed many to it for the first time, simply by her star power alone, regardless of how they liked or disliked Madonna. I first heard about henna as body art during this phase. I have Madonna to thank for my exposure to the art form that has become a long and dear part of my life. But Madonna did a great disservice when she was photographed at the MTV Music Awards, and other high profile events, wearing a product called Temptu, which appears *black* on the skin, unlike real henna. It was called henna by the press, and I believe by the singer herself. This has led to the rise of the PPD usage which has permanently scarred, and toxically infected, thousands around the world where "Black Henna" is practiced. Noxious harm, due to her misinformation that her celebrity also brought to the legacy of henna. I could see the exact same kind of scenario happening for Tarot. Misinformation, combined with media saturation of celebrity fluff, equals... ? The Libra in me would like to add in closing, if, however, it brought more people to Tarot in the long run, it would probably just have to be ok in my book... I grudgingly admit.

krysia322	14 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by DeLani But I also see the downside of when it goes out of style. Those of us who are still reading, or practicing Wicca, or whatever the fad was, will be looked down on. Supposedly more mature people will laugh dismissively, roll their eyes, "oh, I remember when all that was so cool. I've *grown* since then..." *sigh* never mind that we were doing it long before the fad. (sing along: "I was reading, when reading wan't cool...") It's already starting with Wicca. I go to another forum where the owner was once a Wiccan (or "vaguely Pagan" or something), and she's pretty dismissive of anyone still "in that mode." For some reason this post reminded me of a joke/monologue (paraphrased and badly enough to ruin the actual humor of the joke --sorry!) by a stand-up comedian (who's name I can't remember): I'm actually happy to see those bumber stickers, like "God Bless the NRA", because it's like a shortcut; I know that's someone not to hang out with.

krysia322	14 Jul 2004
Oh, and who's Ms. Cleo?

spoonbender	14 Jul 2004
I think it would the same as what's happening to Wicca and witchcraft. Programs like Charmed and Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and movies such as The Craft showed up, in which beautiful young women do a couple of spells when they're in trouble. And just look at the Silver Ravenwolf books, in which people are actually brought to do spells against the busdriver if they don't like him... I personally wouldn't like to see the same thing happen to Tarot - well, it is happening already of course. I can just see all the Tarot decks showing up like the Witchy Tarot: superficial and no credibility. Spoonbender

Alissa	14 Jul 2004
Ms. Cleo was a phone in Tarot psychic whom I believe was later busted for running quite a scam. Easy to look up on Google for those who want to read more. Ms. Cleo is one example of what I'm trying to express. On one hand, she brought Tarot into people's living rooms, and was turning many people on to the very concept of having their cards read. I see that as a good thing. Some AT readers in the past mentioned their business grew with Ms. Cleo's ads, almost like free advertising. :) However, since she was later revealed to be a fraud, she sends a negative connotation to Tarot, and Tarot readers, also. She exemplifies the stereotype, and perpetuates it. I don't see her as a celebrity, so much as a flash in the pan across the American psyche. As krysia's reaction shows, she's also already being forgotten.

Little Baron	14 Jul 2004
The references to henna reminded me of that time when it was all brought back again, about five or so years ago. Around England, there are shops that sell cheap accessories; I can't remember the name ... oh yes, 'Claires Accessories'. They stocked the temporary tattoos, the chinese symbol cushions and all the other stuff that became a fad when people started getting into 'Feng Shui'. I am sure, in that time, I remember seeing the odd fortune telling deck, especially free in a lot of the teenage girls magazines. I am not sure what or who made all of that stuff popular again - maybe the long spate of make-over tv shows we are still enduring here. Even though I had had temporary henna tattoos before (some in the not so easy to find black stuff, which disappeared relatively quickly, rather than scarred), I do remember when Madonnapopularised it all again. Stalls in Camden Town had photographs of her and her hands hanging off of each and every one of them. He he.

Imagemaker	14 Jul 2004
I'd never heard of Miss Cleo before I saw remarks about her on AT. Still haven't seen her, and no one among my friends has ever mentioned her to me--guess we just don't watch enough TV.

Ravenswing	14 Jul 2004
...does anybody remember TM....?? Trends have the advantage of reaching the ones that would if only... Some of them actually stick with it; fewer understand. Paths have the damnedest way of finding you. fly well Raven

laura_borealis	14 Jul 2004
Mark me down as another American who has never heard of Ms. Cleo outside of AT. And until a few weeks ago, I did watch a lot of TV. Maybe I was watching the wrong networks. ;) I just don't see tarot much in mainstream media. There are a few exceptions. On the reality series Mad Mad House, the Wiccan resident did some readings. (She used the Courtney Davis Celtic deck, if anyone's curious.) There was the episode of My So-Called Life in which Rayanne's mother did a reading for Angela, and gave her a deck. The episode dealt fairly and realistically with tarot. Other than that, I can only think of spurious instances, where tarot is a plot device. The psychic turns up the Death card, or The Lovers, and lo and behold someone dies or falls in love. I haven't watched shows like Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Charmed, so I don't know if they delve into tarot -- but I don't think we're in any danger of tarot suddenly becoming hip and trendy. At least not at the moment. And definitely not from that Madonna Versace ad, which is about 10 years old. :)

Little Baron	15 Jul 2004
We recently had a (very funny but extrememely 'dark' - and I mean 'dark' - not for the faint hearted) comedy here in England called 'Nighty Night' - shown on BBC3 and then, on BBC2. In it, the main character (and writer of the sitcom) used cards for the woman next door (The Rider Waite deck). On flipping the 'Devil' card, the neighbour jumped. Jill, the main character reasurred her 'Don't worry Cath, this doesn't mean 'death'. The next card was flipped and Cath jumped again. It was the 'good old thirteenth trump - 'This on the other hand...', she casually remarked, '...does". I laughed so much when I watched that; it didn't matter that the interpretation was wrong because even though the writer probably knew the real interpretation, the character, Jill, probably wouldn't, and since she was trying to seduce the seriously ill neighbours husband, and get her out of the way, it was shown as more of a 'tongue in cheek' tactic than a representation of the tarot. Yaboot

Kiama	15 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by inanna_tarot Well, although i cant stand too much media attention to paganism (coz they nearly always make us look like tree hugging nutters,, ok we are but i dont wanna see that on telly!)... i am actually liking tarot getting some airtime. I wouldnt have to feel funny about having a deck in my bag if it was the in thing this summer.. i can see it now, people comparing decks in the summer sun, having tarot meets in coffee houses and pubs and a DG tarot bag!!! Oh my goodness, it would be like heaven. x Uh.... Um... *Sheepish grin* I already do this... }) I doubt Tarot being hip would bring such a thing about: the thing that would bring it about is simply having friends close to where you live who are also interested in Tarot. *Coughcough*Cardiff Uni*Cough* ;) I've really enjoyed reading all the replies... It's certainly given me much to think about. Kiama

Sillanza	15 Jul 2004
I guess how a person perceives a belief or practice adopted by a celebrity is colored by how that person perceives the celebrity to begin with. So, you could have one person who thinks "Madonna is open to new and expanded horizons, maybe I should ask the girls in the bunco group if any of them know about tarot?" And then you'll get "That crazy Madonna will try anything that's crazier than she is just to keep herself in the media." Doesn't she do yoga in her show too? I thought I saw a picture of her in a pretty impressive elbow balance ... While an influx of casual interest does tend to dilute the quality of conversation, exploration and study of a subject, it's worth it if it does bring a few more bright, sober voices to the fore. Oh, and Miss Cleo didn't help! I had heard of her, as I saw many of her commercials. I believe she was convicted of fraudulent practices in how she collected money on her call-in line. As a tarot reader, I don't know how she fared. And you know what's coming next: The Madonna "Sex" book tarot. Ewww ... :D

Umbrae	15 Jul 2004
If somebody provides me with Madonna's snail mail addy, I'll send her a deck - heck - I'll send her two!

SongDeva	15 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae If somebody provides me with Madonna's snail mail addy, I'll send her a deck - heck - I'll send her two! The address is as follow: Madonna C/O Songdeva 17 Star Street Hudson, MA 01749

inanna_tarot	18 Jul 2004
LMAO Songdeva!!! You minx songdeva you *chuckles* Sezo x

Eco74	18 Jul 2004
A TV series starting off with the fools journey, which will cover the first season of 22 shows (the very first being an introduction of the fool him/herself). Then, 4 sets of 14 shows a pop with lifelessons from each of the minor arcana, including the courts. I might even watch it if it turned out to be any good. Oh, and the childrens-TV-shows could have cartoons, or animals, or "cardstories" from well known fairytales with a summary at the end along the lines of; "And what we learn from this story is that, just as the wise old own, who was the high priestess of the forest, we all need to look inside ourselves for answers when we can not find them around us." Oh, but it would be such fun.. I wonder if the networks would take on to the idea of the childrens shows. They would be so much more fun to put together I think. *s*

linabeet	19 Jul 2004
I was flipping through the land of cable tv a while back and actually saw a kids anime show that was based on a magical deck of cards. The intro was a box of cards opening and they all flew out with sparkles and drama. The characters used them for magical powers of some kind as far as I could gather. I forget the name but it had the word cards in it. So maybe the tarot fad has already happened in Japan!

Diana	19 Jul 2004
linabeet: You probably mean Yugi-Yoh. A lovely anime indeed. I prefer the books though. I believe Tarot in Japan is viewed very differently. I am waiting with great impatience for kenji, one of our Japanese members, to tell us how this happened. And why there seem to be a number of great historical experts there on the Tarot of Marseilles.

HudsonGray	19 Jul 2004
One good thing if tarot went mainstream---we'd FINALLY get a 100% tarot magazine on the bookstands at BArnes & Noble! There's been nothing for the last decade or so.

Umbrae	20 Sep 2004
Ya know…some folks get a little pissy – that Madonna is ‘Commercializing” Kabala – that it will ruin or cheapen Tarot or Kabala if it becomes hip or cool. I say more power. Wanna change the world? Step outta your comfort zone. Reading this article…the girl rocks. And shame on all nay-sayers! At least she’s doing something – perhaps another will listen, and then another, and then another… :smoker:

Ace	20 Sep 2004
Madonna is an artist in the best sense of the word, she does what she likes, her songs are her own take and she does indeed ROCK! as for her Kabbalah and mysticism studies, I really think in her own way she means it, and it will be good for all of us. She is promoting POSITIVE things not negative and what can be harmful in that? As for popularizing Tarot, when I started back in the stone age (1989) doing readings at a psychic fair, the psychics told me about the good old days (1975 or so) when they could make 3 times the money they now made. In those days, a psychic could make enough at fairs to live on. Nowaday, in the enlightened 2004's, the fairs are dying from shear lack of business and with few exceptions, the 900 lines pay under $11/hr connect time. With very few exceptions, this is not a business where you can make money to live on doing private (serious) readings. So if Madonna makes it popular and everyone wants to get a reading ? well, as someone has said, we can all use the money! and she is not making fun of it or (as far as I can see) making it into something it isn't (which is more than I can say about Charmed and other TV shows and paganism!) I agree: in a couple of years there will be lots of decks for sale cheap, but also remember the old refrain: "every thing old is new again!"

mehndigirl	20 Sep 2004
Kabbbalah, henna, and now tarot. When is Madona gonna get off my bandwaggon!?! I've allways been suspicious that she idolizes me. mehndigirl

ferrous	21 Sep 2004
ROTFPML!!!!!!! :D Oh, goodness me .. that's the best laugh I've had all day. Good one, mehndigirl. :D Quote: Originally posted by mehndigirl Kabbbalah, henna, and now tarot. When is Madona gonna get off my bandwaggon!?! I've allways been suspicious that she idolizes me. mehndigirl

spoonbender	21 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Ya know…some folks get a little pissy – that Madonna is ‘Commercializing” Kabala – that it will ruin or cheapen Tarot or Kabala if it becomes hip or cool. I say more power. Wanna change the world? Step outta your comfort zone. Reading this article…the girl rocks. And shame on all nay-sayers ! At least she’s doing something – perhaps another will listen, and then another, and then another… Umbrae, you seem to know a lot about Madonna/Esther - can you tell me if she also visited the Palestinians? I REALLY hope she did. Visiting the Palestinians… now THAT would be “stepping out of your comfort zone”. Or showing the images of the war in Iraq in her video clip ‘American Life’ like she originally intended… THAT would be “stepping out of your comfort zone”. I wouldn’t want to go to Israel these days, because I wouldn’t feel safe and because I sure as hell wouldn’t want to support Israel now that they are exploiting and mistreating Palestinians more than ever. I work at the local Oxfam Worldshop and fully agree with its promotion of Palestinian products and its boycot of those of Israel. I still don’t like the idea of tarot become "hip" – it would loose its credibility and mystery. But then again, I don’t live in a conservative country such as the USA. Spoon

Diana	21 Sep 2004
Madonna is a very interesting artist and singer. I've never met her, so I don't know if she's a nice person, but she seems pretty nice.... But I have to agree with spoonbender. She didn't step much out of her comfort zone what with policemen accompanying her on every step. And a little trip to the Gaza strip would certainly have been the correct thing to do as well, seeing as she decided to talk politics on her spiritual/mystical trip. Pity she didn't take that opportunity. Maybe next time....

Thindelock	21 Sep 2004
It seems to me that Tarot already has at least some presence in mainstream society; even here in the Bible Belt of the US, I can't remember the last time I walked into a book store (Christian bookstores being an obvious exception) that did not have a tarot deck. And I'm not just talking about locally-owned boutiques, I'm talking about the major chains too. Personally, I'm comfortable with the level of publicity Tarot has currently. Maybe it's just the social and political climate I live in, but it seems that at least around here, bringing something fully into the spotlight is a sure-fire way to have it decimated in public. Example: public gay-bashing around here increased tenfold as soon as news broke about San Fran's gay-marriage revolution. Personally, I hesitate to subject something I love to public scrutiny by ignorant masses. Then again, I do not read professionally, and have no need for the free publicity to make money. I can completely see where those that make their living on Tarot would be eager to see their art get the public respect it deserves. I just fear that the bad-press, at least where I live, would outweigh the good (because unlike one previous poster to this thread, I HAVE met people who said that tarot cards were inhabited by the Devil himself. Several people, in fact).

Alissa	21 Sep 2004
I'm a mehndigirl-wannabe!!! :D :D :D

knowledge	22 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Ya know…some folks get a little pissy – that Madonna is ‘Commercializing” Kabala – that it will ruin or cheapen Tarot or Kabala if it becomes hip or cool. I say more power. Wanna change the world? Step outta your comfort zone. Reading this article…the girl rocks. And shame on all nay-sayers ! At least she’s doing something – perhaps another will listen, and then another, and then another… :smoker: I think agree with you/ the world is changing' and to me it's looks for the better. Me and you and every one on the street can make a small change, but same one like Madonna... if she can reach like 100 pepole and 10 will catully learn then half is done. In the Judaism we have a saying, "If you save one soul then it's like you save the entire world". that is how I look at that

Umbrae	22 Sep 2004
Umbrae licked the paper and sealed the cigarette, and glanced up at the Invisible Woman. Her champagne flute floated halfway between the table and nothingness. He lit the fresh cigarette and said, “Listen...Some folks use tarot because it makes them feel Special. For myself, when I started back in the early seventies, I thought it was a good way to pick up girls. Things changed as time rolled on.” The Invisible Woman took a sip from the flute, “This is a 96? It’s nice. When I started Tarot it was not to feel "special" but neither was it solely to help myself grow. One could say the purpose was selfish…” Her voice drifted off. Perhaps it was the time of day, but for a moment, light seemed to bend around her. “It was to touch the unknown; to know we are not alone; to know there was something more.” ”Some folks use tarot because it helps one grow - it helps perhaps clarify a persons spiritual path. It is related to that question I love to ask, ‘Why do you read tarot?’ Now that’s two groups, exclusive and inclusive. To reach a hasty conclusion we could say that one group would want to keep tarot out of the mainstream.” Smoke went crazy as she waved her invisible hand through my exhaled stream to dissipate it. “Well it could be frustrating for some to have studied something in depth for years, and then have it become so McPopularized that anyone who picks up a tarot deck, or pays for a weekend course, thinks they are an expert. And for those who try to eek out a living with it, all those new 'experts' are competition. Further, there will, no doubt, be more readers who give tarot a bad name. There may even be those who cause real harm.” I looked up into those Little Orphan Annie Eyes, if she had eyes, “But listen, the other group will want it to become hip.” I refilled her flute. ”God, tarot decks on every corner…. Yeah, Tarot could become more acceptable. And that would be a relief for those who live in oppressive environments…and if Tarot were more acceptable, more people would come to us, to ask for help. Then there is that whole other side that you hint at…what about those people who actually get something out of it? Tarot can transform people. Seems to me, the more people evolving through tarot, the better. Even if they do not evolve at the same rate, or in the same ways we may have; any evolution is a good thing! One step may lead to another.. and another...” I butted my cig and reached for my flute, “You know how I feel, if Mankind in general begins to become spiritual…” “…as opposed to religious” we said in unison. “…it could mean an end to so much bloodshed. A new beginning?” A smile appeared where the Invisible Woman’s face would be. She always seemed much taller in person. :smoker:

M-Press	22 Sep 2004
All this conversation, makes me think of something that I was wondering about lately: "Why those who love tarot, do so"? Why you and me love it, but for example none of my friends or family do? The love for tarot is much more complicated than let's say, the love for chocolate.... Now, regarding Madonna, I think that what she choses to pursue, she does becasue she connects with it. That can be either diamonds, sex or kabbala. And it so happens that her destiny is that everything she likes becomes public (and naturally criticized...) So, what is really the issue? What it will mean if a celebrity will love tarot, and show it? (will that make it less sincere?) or will MANY OTHER people connect with it, due to a celeb's interest, (and then it will not be as sincere, meaning, just a trend?) or maybe the other way around, because we have to hear about tarot from SOMEWHERE... Tarot has its ways, and what I have learned is that you either connect or you don't. One can't fake interest in the Tarot... So, if exposure will bring IT close to potential Tarot lovers, then why not? Tarot is too complex to become just a trend. I try to sell my deck to non-tarot people, and what I keep getting is: "we really don't need any cards of that kind, but it would be lovely if you told us our future (although we don't believe in these things"...) so, if tarot wil be a trend, this will just show how consiousness is rising in our universe....

firemaiden	22 Sep 2004
...popularity cannot take away the magic... ...there are many stars in the sky... for these sparks of light from somewhere far away a multitude is only more light.

Diana	23 Sep 2004
edited after a discussion with a friendly moderator. :)

yve	23 Sep 2004
When I read the title to this thread "If tarot became Hip"....and I thought, this must be a typo, because tarot IS hip!...for me and my friends and family, anyway....

Macavity	23 Sep 2004
Well, I think it has a little way to go (to Hip-ness?) 'round these parts... :D I was coming to the end of my 12 mile pilgrimage. I wondered if what I had been told could be true. Would the cult still be active? My heart beat faster, as I approached the temple. I opened the ancient, creaking door and immersed myself in the gloom. The air was heavy with incense. I took my place on the hard faded-red pew, trying not to look *too* conspicuous. The Hierophant stood behind a crude, wooden, altar: "What can we do for you?" he asked, tersely. I told him of my desire. Satisfied, he busied himself with the ceremonial preparations... Around me sat the initiates, they were exclusively male, slightly portly, and around 65 years of age. They raised their chalices, in unison, to their lips and muttered quietly in some barbarous tongue. What had, moments ago, been a scene of earnest, animated discussion now relapsed into ominous silence. The Hierophant spoke again: "You're not from these parts are you?". I shook my head. "First time?" I nodded. The initiates exchanged knowing glances. They appeared to be under the influence of some narcotic substance. One turned to me: "If it's young virgins, you're after, seek elsewhere, friend". "Aye", laughed another. "The temple down the road is better... for THAT". But there seemed little humour in their eyes, and the laughter trailed away... I hastily reassured them THAT was not my quest! I raised my own chalice to my lips, drained it's contents and rose to leave. "See you again, sometime?" called the hierophant. "Next week perhaps?", I said, adding "If it's not raining!" As I passed by a side window, I heared a loud laugh and conversation resumed among the initiates.... O.K., just a "slow" evening in a rural English pub! In private conversation with the hiero... I mean landlord, I learned that the "locals" divide the "visitors" into categories: "Boat People" - Thames River-trade, popping in for a "swift half", after mooring for the night. "Parachutists" - (mostly) young folks, with LARGE rucksacks, often originating in (former) British colonies! "Diners" - Well healed, middle aged, restaurant goers, who don't consume (the requisite?) amount of Beer! }) I also asked about some groups seated at tables, isolated from the rest. "Ah", he said, meaningfully: "They're the Thespians" (amateur theatricals) And those? "The Campanologists" (bell ringers, of course!) "Not BAD sorts", He added quickly: "Harmless enough!" :P Egads, think what might've happened, had they identified me as... a Taroist! ;) Macavity <-- A "walker" (apparently)

Umbrae	23 Sep 2004
...Remember this tune? What Is Hip? Tower Of Power So you wanna dump out yo trick bag, Ease on into a hip bag. But you ain't just exactly sure what's hip. So you start to let your hair grow. Spent big bucks on your wardrobe. (Insert Tarot for wardrobe) But somehow you know there's much more to the trip. What is hip? Tell me tell me, if you think ya know. What is hip? And if you're really hip, the passing years will show, That you into a hip trip, maybe hipper than hip. But what is hip? So you became part of the new breed. Been smoking only the best weed. Hanging out with so-called hippest set. Been seen in all the right places, Seen with just the right faces. You should be satisfied, But still it ain't quite right. What is hip? Tell me tell me if you think you know. What is hip? And if you're really hip. The passing years would show, That you into a hip trip, maybe hipper than hip. What is hip? Hipness is what it is! Sometimes hipness is what it ain't! You done went and found you a guru, In an effort to find you a new you. And maybe even managed to raise your conscience level. As you're striving to find the right road, There's one thing you should know: What's hip today might become passe'. What is hip? Tell me tell me if you think you know. What is hip? And if you're really hip, the passing years would show That you into a hip trip. Maybe hipper than hip. WHAT IS HIP?

Diana	23 Sep 2004
edited after discussion with a friendly moderator. :)

Umbrae	23 Sep 2004
The Invisible Woman is real. (and quite hip)

lark	23 Sep 2004
I don't worry about it. All those decks that get bought now will end up on the closet shelf with the yoga mats, mood rings, bread makers, and Y2K survivor manuals. Just means the rest of us will be able to pick up some real deck deals at garage sales a few years down the road.

Ace	23 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana If Tarot becomes hip, there will be more and more charlatans. Just like in any field. The medical field for instance. I think M-Press and Firemaiden have it right, Diana, it will lead more people to the idea of Tarot, and a few more will find it something they want. The rest will go off to find something else after a while and but a few will stay with us around the fire..... People have tried to license or certify readers for a hundred years, and still can't define it. It may not be indefinable, but there is more than one way to get to an answer. They aren't neccessarily charlatans, just different. There have always been psychic crooks, when it wasn't popular and when it was, it is the way it is. I don't think our 15 minutes of fame will make much difference. For me, I always was hip. :cool:

MeeWah	23 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae Umbrae licked the paper and sealed the cigarette... :smoker: Umbrae rolls his own cigarettes using *loose tobacco & cigarette papers*, a not uncommon practice. Loose tobacco is sold in bulk; ditto for cigarette papers.

lunar_rabbit	23 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by laura_borealis You've got to be kidding me. Dear gods... It looks like some of her fans have already conflated her image with that of tarot. :P In this one she's the Queen of Pentacles. Those are hilarious! I love the 80s deck. Seems like it's TOO EASY for the material girl to be the queen of pentacles though. How funny to browse that deck and see all the names of celebrities from that time. Makes me feel old, though.... LOL

lunar_rabbit	23 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by DeLani But I also see the downside of when it goes out of style. Those of us who are still reading, or practicing Wicca, or whatever the fad was, will be looked down on. Supposedly more mature people will laugh dismissively, roll their eyes, "oh, I remember when all that was so cool. I've *grown* since then..." I know what you mean. I hate to use the terminology Wiccan or even Pagan to describe my beliefs not only because they don't feel very descriptive to me, but also because I am not comfortable being lumped into the category with the 20-something wannabe's who are "into the Pagan scene" for a year or two because it is the rebellious cool thing to do. I am a 34 year old mother of two who lives in a small town in the Midwest, for goodness sakes! LOL I describe myself as "eclectic" instead. Maybe I should say "aeclectic"! ;-)

jmd	23 Sep 2004
On the subject of whether a popular singer or actor or other individual became interested and 'actively' promoted Tarot, it seems to me that various aspects need to be considered. The first is the incredible pressure and difficulty placed on celebrities who, as, after all, normal people, may develop a passion in whatever takes their attention and interest. It seems that often they face implicit persecution if they do develop such interest, and persecution if they don't! On the subject of Madonna or others taking such an interest, of course they, like others, would be guided by those with greater knowledge in the area. If it happens to coincide with our personal preferences, we would probably welcome it, if not, we would probably be disappointed in having to further weather the battering of additional popular trends in ways which differs from our own. ...for the record, I would personally prefer that if she or others did take it up in some way which provided support, that an open-ness be encouraged.

Ace	28 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Sillanza Oh, and Miss Cleo didn't help! I had heard of her, as I saw many of her commercials. I believe she was convicted of fraudulent practices in how she collected money on her call-in line. As a tarot reader, I don't know how she fared. Miss Clea BTW was only a FIGURE HEAD on a 900 line. She was exposed as an actress (she appeared on the Jeffersons TV show among other places). The trouble was, you called the 900 line and asked to speak to her and were told she was busy but ..... was available. Who might be anybody from a good reader to a newby excited to earn $10/hr (connect time). I didn't hear exactly what or who was convicted of fraud, but those are the facts, ma'am. A friend of mine who lives in Las Angles, CA was contacted to front a 900 line. They would pay her to do as Miss Cleo does show herself reading and urge people to call. Since she had no control over the kinds of people who would actually read on the line, she felt it was detremental to her reputation as a reader and told them to kiss off!

Mesara	29 Sep 2004
I was completely unaware that Madonna was considered "hip!" I kinda thought she was way past her prime in the showbiz world but what do I know? I do find her constant religious/spiritual makeovers somewhat debilitating to her chosen fad of the moment, whether it be catholisism, kabbalism, slutism, tarot, cannabalism (you know that's the next fad on her list), etc.. I personally don't think Madonna is capable of any deep spirituality or commitment to anything. I think Madonna bases her spiritual choices on whatever is considered to be the most controversial and "wierd" spiritual movement of the day. Today it is Kabbalism, tomorrow it will be cannabalism. Yes, tomorrow she will be preaching about the healing and spiritual properties of digesting human flesh. And, of course, the next day dumbasses all over the world will be indulging in that as well. However, I don't see her as a threat to tarot or any other interest she pursues. People who cling to trends just to be trendy typically lack the patience, thought, and motivation to ever successfully develop it.

The If Tarot Became 'Hip'...? thread was originally posted on 14 Jul 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.