mistrust & superstition (a rant)

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 10 Jul 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

punchinella	10 Jul 2004
I'm slightly frustrated & needing to vent. I introduced tarot to my mother some time last year, & have given her several decks in the intervening time. At first she was interested, & read a bit, & took to pulling a card-for-the-day, & even joined the forum :) I should explain that up to now, she & I have lived on opposite ends of the continent: she in California, & I in Ontario Canada. But about 3 weeks ago she flew up here to help me clean & renovate a house, preparatory to putting it up for sale. I've noticed during this time that she avoids touching my cards, refuses to consult on any question whatsoever, shudders visibly & changes the subject when I comment on my card-for-the-day . . . in other words, acts like a person frightened and/or offended by tarot. I finally confronted her about this, and asked what she had against cards. She said that she had pulled a card-for-the-day for one full semester (she's a teacher) & that it turned out to be the worst semester of her life. Everything went wrong, she screwed up, everyone was mad at everyone else . . . etc. etc. etc. . . . After telling me about this, she went on to say that at the end of the semester she mentioned to a friend that she had been pulling cards-for-the-day, & her friend (no authority on the subject) replied "are you sure that's wise, I'd stay away from such dark energies" or something to that effect. From that day forward, she told me, she renounced tarot. She appears to have developed an elaborate belief that rather than reflecting a day, tarot actually affects the day in question . . . She hints that 'unknown entities' (read: demons) control the outcome of a shuffle, & that use of tarot is tantamount to an invitation to allow these entities to control & manipulate one's life. The precise logic of this is lost on me (& therefore impossible to refute). The thing is--she really does seem to believe that tarot jinxes one's life. She panics at the mere suggestion that I pull a card for advice on any subject. I'm so disappointed in this. My mother & I have always been close, & from now on we're going to be living together. I've been alone with my cards for so long now . . . but ever since deciding to move several months ago, anticipation of a 'partner in the crime of tarot' has been a bright spot on an otherwise bleak horizon. I guess she had one bad experience, made up her mind, & is unwilling to risk further 'trouble' for the sake of sharing in my (dare I call it . . . passion??) Having shut her own mind to the cards, disapproval of my continuing interest is the natural next step. She seems to resent the time I spend reading, as well as computer time (knowing how it's spent). Most of the time when people are hostile to tarot, it seems to be because they don't know anything about it. They've never studied or owned a deck, & certainly never joined Aeclectic! My mother's hostility, however, is insidious in that she can lay claim both to basic knowledge & to experience. I don't know how to fight this. Maybe I shouldn't even try.

Middy1452	10 Jul 2004
This is a very difficult situation to be in and I do sympathise especially as you were looking forward to having a Tarot partner. I would maybe approach it from the angle of asking your mum whether it was the "bad" card she pulled or whether it was her friend's rather misplaced advice. I don't know the situation like you do but I would say it's the latter - I find it hard to believe that someone who has had such a close relationship with the cards for so long could turn against it because the card she drew was "bad". If you do feel you could have the discussion and it is the friend who has swayed her then there may be something you can do. Get her to remember all the times the cards have helped for one thing. Remind her that there's nothing magical or sinister about the cards themselves - they're mass produced cards with paintings on and, IMHO, the magic is within us. We can either take the advice and guidance they offer or we don't. Our lives aren't predetermined - things will happen to us that are good and things will happen that are bad. What we can do is learn from each and every one of these things for next time. That way we can have some input into the course our life takes. At the end of the day though Punchinella if your mum has made up her mind there may be little you can do to sway her. But that shouldn't stop you enjoying working with your cards. Just tell her you respect her opinion but you can't agree with it - the cards are obviously a special part of your life (as they are with many of us) and you would be denying yourself if you gave them up. I'm not sure whether this helps but I wish you luck whichever way you decide to proceed. Blessings x

Emily	10 Jul 2004
Hi Punchinella, Will you be living in her house or she in your house? Maybe before you start to live together you should mention that tarot is a very big part of your life, and really it has nothing to do with her. If she has problems like thinking tarot changes the day and not just reflects on it then she isn't suited to tarot reading - she's tried it and its not for her. It is a hard situation but you're both adults. It could be that she's worried about you, you say she's had one hell of a time since reading her own daily cards and this worry could be reflected onto you. I do keep my hobby pretty close to my chest, my mom and husband don't understand my fascination for them so I don't flaunt it. When Mom comes to visit decks are put away. I hope you manage to get this sorted out without feeling forced into giving up your tarot.

Alta	10 Jul 2004
I too find it hard to explain that tarot (or I Ching) does not make things happen! If you draw a negative card or a hexagram, that does not cause the negative event; it gives you forewarning; helps you to plan and mitigate, and re-think and re-position. I have never found a good answer to this, and I would suggest that you are very unlikely to change her mind at this point. The poison pill has been swallowed.

Dark Inquisitor	10 Jul 2004
My god. Tarotphobia. I don't see how your mom is going to want to even live in a house with tarot decks in it now that she has this irrational fear. Has someone been filling her mind full of religious teachings that try to scare people about tarot ? It doesn't seem like you will be able to discuss this logically with her .Probably bringing it up or trying to argue the point will only make things worse. Perhaps all you can do is send her energy to try to dispel whatever bad energies she is generating and help her feel safe. Tarotphelia

Ace	10 Jul 2004
Many people go thorough your Mom's experience, Punchinella, so don't be angry at your Mom or her "well-meaning" :rolleyes: friend. Many people can't take looking at the greater universe. It could very well be that Tarot would not let her ignore some things that really bothered her, but up until now, she just let roll off her back. Tarot made her look at them, so now she rejects Tarot. Agree to disagree with her, and sad though it is, just find other Tarot buddies. You are feeling hurt because you thought a mutual interest would make you guys comfortable together, but you can still find mutual interests, they just won't be tarot. But remember: YOU ARE NOT ALONE with the cards: you have US! barb

Cerulean	10 Jul 2004
Moving and life changes are stressful, both for you and loved ones. I'm sorry your mother had a bad semester. Stress is awful for anyone. She was probably worried about you as well. Love and concern and stress can sometimes lead us to strange times and unusual, personal conclusions. Probably with all the things happening to you, it's hard when you also know your loved ones are having a bad time...and your hopes for sharing a creative outlet hasn't helped her. That is hard, I'm really sorry to hear that. It could be she was also not using a deck that was helpful to her...or trying to learn tarot and day-by-day facing stressful work situations was too too much! Probably the friend was trying to be helpful and soothing, not realizing what would happen when the mother and daughter got together again. Would it be helpful to your mother to know about your creative hopes? If I remember right your creative outlets include researching fine children's literature, learning about drawing and creating a deck of cards with associations that celebrate these interests. In other words, you want to create positive energy and only invoke creative solutions that help yourself and others. If my mother was scared for me, I'd say that their upbringing of me has steered me to recognize good from bad, and I've learned to judge how to use tarot creatively, in a good way. My phrasing might be (if we were going to be close by) as a daughter, if she was interested, this could be done more easily and relaxed and not mysterious or bad...and when she's not stressed, you'd be glad to share what works. I remember you talking about wanting to work with drawing and art, your creative associations with poetry (did I remember right?). If so, would it be possible to gently introduce ideas to your mother that you are careful to use tarot as one positive vehicle that helps you? And if you are closer in area to her, over time, it would be easier to share so that she can see that you, the tarot, and your relationships are not in danger. People who use tarot, at least on this board that I've talked to, are family-friendly and have creative outlets, friends, activities and try to make a balanced, decent life. My best hopes are that your mother will be less anxious, more relaxed, willing at some point to work with it again...or at least see your outlets in a positive light. Combined with all the positive, good things that you are working toward, I hope she becomes more agreeable with your interests. Sincere good wishes, Cerulean Mari

HudsonGray	10 Jul 2004
Just think--all those cards coming up for a full year to give her options and all she does is shoot the messenger. That's a hard one to work around.

Dark Inquisitor	11 Jul 2004
Unpleasant thought: When you two move in together, will the tarot-killer "friend" be visiting ?? Eeek. Tarotphelia

punchinella	11 Jul 2004
Thanks everyone for your thoughts on this. Quote: Originally posted by Marion I too find it hard to explain that tarot (or I Ching) does not make things happen! If you draw a negative card or a hexagram, that does not cause the negative event; it gives you forewarning; helps you to plan and mitigate, and re-think and re-position. I have never found a good answer to this, and I would suggest that you are very unlikely to change her mind at this point. I'm glad I'm not the only one unable to phrase an argument against this. I feel that she's wrong . . . I know she's wrong, that tarot doesn't cause anything (unless one deliberately uses it as a path for spellworking, in which case it still doesn't cause anything . . . ) But there's really no way to prove this is there. Cerulean, I think you may be right that the best way to deal with this is through creativity, which brings out a quite interesting aspect of the whole problem. Which is, that when I first introduced her to tarot, she flipped out & got so excited about the idea of creating a deck herself . . . creativity was her very first focus, & she began studying the cards for the express purpose of understanding what she wanted to do in her own deck. (She's a fiber artist, & likes working in 'closed series', of which a 78-card deck is a perfect example). She seemed utterly fascinated by the way different artists interpret cards, & described pouring over scans in the midnight hours . . . Of the decks I gave her, she seemed particularly drawn to Tarot of Prague & Haindl. As I developed my own ideas for a deck, & realized that I would soon be moving in with her, I began to fantasize about somehow combining efforts . . . & even discussed this with her over the phone a time or two. So her attitude now really is a shock. Thus far I've been breezy & refused to appear to take her concerns seriously. I think this may be the way to--slowly & over time--win her 'round again. Presenting her with a design challenge might help too--I don't think she'd be able to resist! :laugh: At any rate, thanks again Cerulean for reminding me of creativity. &, thanks to everyone else too, it's a pleasure & a comfort to read all of your thoughts.

Astra	11 Jul 2004
The majority of people who start reading the Tarot put them down within six months. (Okay, this isn't a statistical solidity, just from my experience watching people who get interested in the cards - as is the rest of this) Most of them are frightened away because they have the experience of seeing the cards actually work, and while it was tempting to try something for fun, the fact that they are getting answers that really fit in with their lives is incredibly scary. Most people who drop the Tarot never can give a reason for doing it, but they tend to be phobic, in one way or another, about the cards, as a way of not having to deal with their own perceptions of the larger universe. Your mother was probably at this stage when her co-worker gave her a really nice focus for her fears. Since it was so useful, she adopted it without really thinking about it. Simply let it go. Work on your own, in whatever ways you like. You don't have to mention any of your own work with the Tarot to her, and for the time being, it's just as well. Because the other piece of this is that when a few years have passed (sorry, it usually does take that long), there's generally a reversion to the initial interest, or at least lack of prejudice.

Alta	11 Jul 2004
Very well said Astra. It seems to me that fear is just as effective in bringing people to tarot as it is to driving them away. Accepting that you are getting genuine guidance is a big step. I actually went through that step in the mid eighties and it was like a thunderclap going through me. In my case it meant that I have never felt alone since that day. But it can also make a person quickly leave the room and never look back.

Cerulean	11 Jul 2004
There was something that struck home to me, just my small experience: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- She seemed utterly fascinated by the way different artists interpret cards, & described pouring over scans in the midnight hours . . . Of the decks I gave her, she seemed particularly drawn to Tarot of Prague & Haindl. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I remember in times of stress at work, of course I'll turn to my workouts or creative outlets even more...and sometimes not realize how I am exhausting myself. We do have to make our living and balance our joys and stress--sigh, not enough time to enjoy all the tarots out there. If I may make a suggestion, she did "gather in" quite a bit if she chose to focus on the artistic graces of Prague and the very complex Haindl. Prague has a lovely feeling, lots to absorb, I think friendlier in a fresh, romantic way a European city might dazzle me at first glance. But it is dazzling and if one doesn't have a full night's sleep...could be too heady. The Haindl to me now looks soft, but it could be somber if you were to read about the artistic background and learn about the various cultural concepts...and anyone looking up references to Kali and Shiva might find the cultural concepts a bit strong. Again, a heady potion in itself! How lovely that your mother is a fiber-artist, they have such a sensitivity for texture and light...a sensitivity to how things look and feel...if your mother ever wants a gentler tarot, sometimes I think the English-language Ananda is lovely that way. Just my take...best wishes on your moves and so many different ventures! Regards, Cerulean Mari

Sillanza	12 Jul 2004
Punchinella, if I were in your position I think I would be most disappointed that my mother chose to believe the offhand comment of someone who knows nothing about tarot, and that it was enough to destroy the enthusiasm she acquired for it through you. Perhaps when she sees that tarot isn't imparting any dark energy that controls your life, the aesthetic part of it that once attracted her will become palatable again. Hang in there, but softly. :)

punchinella	12 Jul 2004
Well, earlier this afternoon, her being in the next room over when I checked the boards, I actually invited my mother to read this thread. I had qualms about doing so (would she feel embarassed or angry at being discussed publicly?) Actually, it appears to have worked out rather well. After she read the thread, we had a long discussion . . . with the result (drumroll) that she's now borrowed my Osho Zen deck & pulled, entirely on her own initiative, a spread for our upcoming week. Now, instead of sleeping, she keeps popping out of her bedroom to read cogent passages from the OZ book to me. I think reading some of the sensitive things (& some of the funny things) written here may have been just what the doctor ordered. Thank you, everyone (((((Middy, Emily, Marion, Tarotphelia, Ace, Cerulean, HudsonGray, Astra, Sillanza)))))

Cerulean	12 Jul 2004
Hope you both also have rest, absorption time in your many many endeavors. Thanks to you both for the nice update. The Osho Zen is very lovely! Cerulean Mari

Astra	12 Jul 2004
I agree with Cerulean. It's always nice when my pessimistic forecasts turn out to be entirely untrue!

Emily	12 Jul 2004
I agree that the Osho Zen is a lovely deck and just the thing to sooth a battered spirit.

Dark Inquisitor	12 Jul 2004
That is wonderful news about your mom !! This reminded me of a similarly themed thread by MAR from a little while ago that might be helpful also . She too became frightened after someone told her that tarot was evil : http://67.19.40.82/showthread.php?threadid=26884

TheLovers2	12 Jul 2004
Punchinella: Let's not share this with your mom, just yet. It may not be encouraging. She's doing good. I have Osho Zen and it is very spiritually motivating, graceful, peaceful. This will get sorted out somehow, but, for right now . . . My heart goes out to you and I totally empathize with your mom's feelings. I have not wanted to talk about this kind of thing, in regards to myself, because I just don't want to believe that Tarot has anything to do with how things have been happening in my life over the past couple of years, coincidentally, the time frame lines up with when I began Tarot. I don't have the answers, but, I'm trying to work through this. This thread has prompted me to go ahead and discuss this, which I hadn't wanted to do because it feels so personal. I really could use some advice or help discerning what has been going on. I became interested in Tarot around the beginning of 2002 , which was also the beginning of my separation/divorce proceedings. In Waldenbooks, one day, I SUDDENLY became interested in the tarot decks behind the counter -- seemingly out of the blue. I am a Christian and had never had any interest not to mention that I'd heard bad things about Tarot in the past. Anyway, the rest of the day was consumed with me investigating Tarot, a good hour or more in Walden perusing books on Tarot and then on to Borders, where people seem to come out of the woodwork to help me in my understanding of Tarot and even in choosing a deck. I mean they were everywhere, so much advice. I may have been at Borders for 4 hrs. Believe me, it was a long time. I was tireless. I left with the Book of Runes and a Vicsonti deck. I have at least 30 decks now. Total TarotLover. Ok. Since that time, I have had a series of uncanny, incredible challenges that I have never before experienced. Back to back to back, it seems that pretty much everything that could go wrong has gone wrong. Now, of course, not everything, but, we are talking bizarre, seemingly bad luck. (However, I don't believe in luck.) I don't think anyone would pass these things off as bad divorce stuff, I've thought of that, but, this has been incredible. No one close to me knows what to make of it all. People have not been able to believe it . They are stunned. Those who know that I have the cards, have NOT blamed them. I think they're being honest. They have said things, such as, I don't use the cards in a bad way, I'm a good person, etc., so they don't see any harm in me being involved in Tarot. I don't know if that's because they know how much Tarot means to me and are secretly thinking something about my cards, but, don't want to upset me or what. There are a couple of Christians I know who don't like it. I don't know how to process this. I have not allowed myself to blame the cards because I believe that I am in control, not my cards and I LOVE TAROT and don't feel I can give it up. I feel like crying at the mere thought. Sorry, I know this post is long; it seems I'm always verbose, but, this time I'm really concerned. This thread has made me "let it out." Now, one thing I have thought is that I could ask the cards about this whole mess and I haven't. I am going to have to probably ask for a reading on here, however, that's done; except that I don't know what it costs. OR, I could muster the courage to do it myself. The big question that has been popping up in my mind for at least 2 yrs. now is, "What the HECK is going on? This is not normal!" I am not kidding. One theory I'm willing to accept: As a Christian, a Believer, perhaps, I'm neglecting my time with God and my usual spiritual diet and He is not pleased. There is a scripture that speaks of God being "jealous," you know, of his time, etc. Perhaps, it's that I have not been putting Him first, even though He is first in my heart. I do not view Tarot as a replacement, just as friend, family. I am so glad to have discovered Tarot that one day, I remember feeling that I wish I had discovered it years ago because that would mean so much more time I'd have for my cards. More time, more time, etc. I was thinking, "How many more years do I have to enjoy Tarot?" Ok. It was just a thought, but, that's deep to me, that I feel that way. You know it's interesting that I have not asked the cards about the varying circumstances. I'll ask about the day, card for a day, or about my love life, but, I haven't asked about the "uncanny bad stuff." That's interesting. You'd think I would. I did a Visconti reading way back in the beginning and it seemed to relate to the circumstances having to do with possible legal action, a judge, etc., but, that was it. I never asked again. Ok . I need help sorting this out. Things have been a mess and other than for faith in God and my friends, some family and, of course, Tarot, I don't know how I'd cope. I insist that Tarot is not the problem. I can't be jinxed. HELP PLEASE. I'm starting to cry, but, on a lighter note: All of you Tarot vultures don't come scouting for my decks just yet, I AM NOT READY TO THROW IN THE TOWEL. (I'm laughing.) My decks and I remain. TL2

HudsonGray	12 Jul 2004
I'm not quite sure what would be going on with your life right now, but I'm sure it's not hinging on tarot (they are only card stock & ink, after all). Could be that since you're looking deeper into yourself, more stuff just comes out of the woodwork? But since you have over 25 posts, you're free to go over to the readings board & find someone who's offering to do one, or put up that you'll do a reciprocal one -if they do you, you'll do them. Maybe that'll give a handle on things. Maybe not, but at least you'll get some outsider feedback. Hang in there, this year seems to be a lousy one for more people than I care to admit. It's not 'just you'.

TheLovers2	12 Jul 2004
HudsonGray: Thanks. I will do that. I wasn't sure how it worked asking for a reading, but, yes, I can certainly do that. TL2

Dark Inquisitor	12 Jul 2004
I don't think you have to freak out just yet, TL2 ! You are a Christian and in that background, one is usually blaming oneself and one's sins for anything bad that happens . If bad things are happening, we are bad people. Doing something wrong, etc. And if we don't stop and repent, things will just get worse !! Or- there is always that standby Devil and his lying spirits hanging around just trying to screw us over. However, other people of different traditions and beliefs have other ways to see such situations. I had a long period of time where everything just went bad and wrong, one thing after another. I wasn't doing anything sinful . (unfortunately) I didn't own a deck of tarot cards at that time either! A lot of people see times like that as a kind of karmic acceleration. A clearing of the way, getting the bad stuff out of the way for a better, different life to come. Maybe it could have happened slowly, a couple of bad things a year, or maybe it could have happened quickly, like falling dominoes. Astrological and numerological followers may see these bad periods as foretold in your birthdate and name by the planets and the numbers in your life. Sometimes bad times are seen as a personal test , a test of faith or resolve. "What does not kill me makes me stronger ;" "The North Wind made the Vikings, " etc. Sometimes it is seen as a stripping away of all things in your personality and getting down to the bare bones. Transformation big time. It might be that you are being prepared for a spiritual awakening or upsurge of some kind. It may be that we cannot grow spiritually without being broken down and rebuilt in some way. Human beings are stubborn and mostly egotistical beings who do not like to change .The bigger the break down, the bigger the growth. In the path of the creative person, (I don't know if you are creative or not..) one is likely to undergo the creative death period. The Void. The complete undoing. It is a terrible and dark time that can last years . Everthing falls apart. The mystic has the Dark Night of the Soul. About the only thing one cand do in such circumstances is give in and let the process happen. We do have to expect some bad things to happen in life, and we should not be surprised when they do. We can't guarantee a bunch unpleasant things won't happen in succession. The Universe isn't following our rules. Something is happening and you are changing. But you are not alone , and certainly not the only one. I hope this helps some- Tarotphelia

lark	12 Jul 2004
TL2 and Punchinella's Mom~ Instead of seeing tarot as the cause of bad luck maybe your cards came into your life at just the right time. As a comfort and a tool to help you understand yourself and your life when things don't seem to be going right. I know they are a great comfort to me in hard times.

TheLovers2	13 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Tarotphelia I don't think you have to freak out just yet, TL2 ! A lot of people see times like that as a kind of karmic acceleration. A clearing of the way, getting the bad stuff out of the way for a better, different life to come. Maybe it could have happened slowly, a couple of bad things a year, or maybe it could have happened quickly, like falling dominoes. Sometimes bad times are seen as a personal test , a test of faith or resolve. "What does not kill me makes me stronger ;" "The North Wind made the Vikings, " etc. Sometimes it is seen as a stripping away of all things in your personality and getting down to the bare bones. Transformation big time. It might be that you are being prepared for a spiritual awakening or upsurge of some kind. It may be that we cannot grow spiritually without being broken down and rebuilt in some way. Human beings are stubborn and mostly egotistical beings who do not like to change .The bigger the break down, the bigger the growth. In the path of the creative person, (I don't know if you are creative or not..) one is likely to undergo the creative death period. The Void. The complete undoing. It is a terrible and dark time that can last years . Everthing falls apart. The mystic has the Dark Night of the Soul. About the only thing one cand do in such circumstances is give in and let the process happen. We do have to expect some bad things to happen in life, and we should not be surprised when they do. We can't guarantee a bunch unpleasant things won't happen in succession. The Universe isn't following our rules. Something is happening and you are changing. But you are not alone , and certainly not the only one. I hope this helps some- Tarotphelia Tarotphelia: You are very wise; there's a lot of wisdom in your words and recognizable truths. Something inside of me is saying, "Yes. Get this." So, I'm listening. This helps a great deal. Definitely, something is happening and I am changing big time. I have over the past couple of years changed many of my views and re-evaluated so many things. I am in some sort of process that's for sure, but, you know, I've had hard times before - never anything like this and so consistently so. I so relate to the "falling dominoes" analogy, the "bare bones," "a spiritual awakening and being broken down and rebuilt." It is exactly like that. Bam, bam, bam! I want it to stop. I would hate for anyone to experience this, but, of course, I know there are people going through worse things. You say that I'm not alone and I believe that, however, no one I know, personally, has shared that they have gone through anything quite like this. It's that rapid fire succession of events that puzzles them. They start out strong and then gradually start to sound dazed and confused, like they just can't figure it out. They don't get it and what you said may be the best way to look at it. They have said that I will emerge stronger for having gone through this, but, sometimes, I think if this is what it takes to get to some next level, "fuhget aboudit!" You know what I mean. (laughing) Anyway, I am going to re-read your words and think more about what you've said because they absolutely minister to my spirit. Again, much thanks, Tarotphelia. lark: I really don't see the cards as bad luck, but, after reading Punchinella's post about her mom having a series of things happen all year, etc., it made me want to examine this further. I never want to feel that something I enjoy so much could be the cause of this kind of pain. The cards for me, like you, lark have actually been so much part of my comfort. I may not know the answers, but, it's good to ask the questions. Bringing this out into the open is probably good for me, as personal as it is. But, hey . . . when I need help, I ask. TL2

cricket	13 Jul 2004
TL2 - you have a pm :)

punchinella	13 Jul 2004
TL2, it's so interesting that you write all this. Because, although I did not mention the substance of the long conversation that I had with my mother yesterday, her argument went something like this: "Punchinella--in the last couple of years, you've lost your marriage, your business, your house, your community (a long story), & your nation of choice. You have nothing left . . . absolutely nothing . . . except your tarot cards. I am your mother, & fiercely protective of you . . . under the circumstances, is it any wonder that I'm concerned?" I too have had a run of extraordinarily, unbelievably bad "luck" of late. And, that run does seem to coincide & even intertwine with my discovery of tarot. Except that I don't really choose to view it that way. For one thing, I don't believe in luck per se . . . the very notion makes me feel sick to my stomach! I really feel that there's a plan, that I'm part of it, that everything in my life or experience not directly attributable to human agency is by default a part of this plan. &, I believe that this plan is benign. Which means, ultimately, that an honest loss is no loss at all. Loss due to pig-headedness is one thing; this is not what I mean by an honest loss. By honest loss, I mean when the universe, other people, random circumstance, etc. . . . just seem to conspire amongst themselves to screw me over. I am just coming to accept that this is okay--good even! It's a blessing in disguise, a cleansing. Tarotphelia's expression of a 'karmic acceleration' is so apt. How can acceleration, in & of itself, be bad . . . unless one believes, in one's heart of hearts, that doom awaits? If a person is fundamentally optimistic (& what Christian is not--??) then how can acceleration be unwelcome? TL2, have you investigated Meditations on the Tarot: A Journey through Christian Hermeticism by 'Unknown Friend' (anonymous author)? It's an amazing, beautiful book which I've been reading for several months now. A couple of weeks ago I layed out some cards asking what I bring away from this situation of loss in which I currently find myself. The answer was poverty: I bring away poverty. Poverty, in Meditations, is one of the three great vows made by a Christian . . . the other two being obedience, and chastity. While I don't actually consider myself a Christian, I am nonetheless deeply moved by what Unknown Friend has to say about these vows. When tarot told me I would bring poverty away as a heritage from this time, I felt blessed, & dignified by the blessing. If I can accept loss, dishonor, & misrepresentation with grace . . . if I can accept that the world owes me nothing, if I can genuinely accept nothing, & be happy . . . then I have everything. There is no wealth, no position of honor, to compare with this. This is infinitely more than I could ever hope to earn. Your description of life experience right now does seem parallel to my own--weirdly so. I hope you don't mind hearing my thoughts. Regarding the tarot connection itself . . . you know, right now I'm thinking that maybe there is a link between what's happened lately in my life, & all the reading I've been doing . . . but if so--it's a good link. Period. With the possible exception of my marriage (which ended prior to my discovery of tarot) everything I've lost has been superfluous. Painful, but true. Less is more. (((((TL2))))) (You're not alone.)

Black*Cat	13 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by punchinella Regarding the tarot connection itself . . . you know, right now I'm thinking that maybe there is a link between what's happened lately in my life, & all the reading I've been doing . . . but if so--it's a good link. Period. With the possible exception of my marriage (which ended prior to my discovery of tarot) everything I've lost has been superfluous. Painful, but true. Less is more. (((((TL2))))) (You're not alone.) Punchinella - what a beautiful post. If my children grow up to be able to face adversity with such grace & courage I will be very proud of them. In my experience it's often during the difficult or sad times that we find or return to tarot. Although they are only a pack of cards with pretty pictures on them (& cannot create the problems, in my view) they are often amongst our best friends in the hard times, for they tell us the truth about ourselves when we ask sincerely. And when life it tough the truth is very valuable in helping us find a way through the darkness. (((((Punchinella))))) & (((((TL2))))) Love, Black*Cat

TheLovers2	13 Jul 2004
. . . with me and with all of us, some of the circumstances that comprise what must be one of the most difficult periods of your life. I thoroughly appreciate you revealing some of your "losses." We do have similarities in terms of the circumstances, very similar. My ex did ask for a divorce before my involvement with Tarot, but, only a few months before. So, I had my first deck during the beginning of the separation/divorce process. Also, I don't believe in luck, either. You have a great attitude and that is what we and anyone who is going through this kind of thing will need . . . and faith, regardless of your belief system. I went to bed last night thinking of what I read in Tarotphelia's post. It gave me a lot of peace. There is a scripture that says, "Without a vision the people perish." One must continue to move forward with optimism regarding the future - a vision of how you see yourself, and the ways in which your life and everything in it will become new and improved and better than before. That's what I believe. I'm going to look for the book you mentioned. Thank you. Black*Cat: I receive that. Thanks. TL2

Livia	13 Jul 2004
Okay deap breath in nose/out mouth... We should rename this thread the bad "luck" club...I have always had it, but don't believe in it either... it's just everything seems to happen to me. I find that maybe this stuff has happened to me for a reason, In the past I have faced more than my share of bad stuff, but I have always thought someday it will change, I work hard, have gone to graduate school (and graduated), someday I will have a job that pays the bills, and a happy family, and be healthy (it seems one of these is always going a wry). I also thought how dull life would be so dull. One day I had a screw up at my bank effecting my rent check (it was a random mistake not my fault), my car died and was towed so I had to take the bus to fix a problem with my student loans and when i got off the bus to pick up the car, I saw not one but 2 tornados tuch down! It can't be more interesting than that. I always said well it could be worse. Over the last 2 years I have seen worse, and even worse, everytime it is about to turn around boom agian. This last blow has been devistating. After reading these posts I think that (I hope that) this is just the world's way of making me start from scratch, to build my faith and views (call it what you want) up stronger. Thanks for the posts and about Tarot, I too am afraid to do a reading on the real problem i just don't want to get more bad news....

Livia	13 Jul 2004
Oh I forgot to add... I think this story is appropriate here.... My Chinese Language Prof. in undergad. went on a visit to the mainland, and for the first time she visited Beijing (she was born in Taiwan) She was talking to a taxi driver about places to see, and asked him about a temple/shrine she heard of that had statues of the Buddha, Lao Tze (fonder of the Tao tradition), Jesus, and Confucious. the driver said he hadn't heard of the site, but said (read with Chinese accent) "How great they can play Maj Jongg together!" ...In the East it is acceptable to combine pratices. I was raised Catholic, strict Catholic, and I know how here are those that think it is hethanistic, and the like, but I remind myself that there is a mystisism even in the Catholic Church that isn't discussed readily but is there. A priest friend of mine taught me all about ghosts... I hope that makes sense, and helps I'll be thinking about you and hoping things change for the better...

punchinella	13 Jul 2004
Livia, you're right, we should rename this thread, since with the subject of luck etc. we seem to have gotten seriously off-topic :) To return to tarot & the question of its impact on our lives: the obvious thing (possibly so obvious that no one has even bothered to say it) is that tarot does powerfully affect the lives of those who use it, but only via the medium of those persons themselves--i.e., by influencing attitudes & consequently choices & actions . . . NOT through any 'external' means. Whomsoever disagrees with this, feel free to speak out! Livia you mention fear of readings on important issues, & I think, yes, we've probably all experienced this. Sometimes one simply doesn't want to know. Or, for that matter, need to know . . . Fear that the act of reading will somehow change external circumstance, however, is another thing altogether. The only support for this that I can think of might come from quantum physics: isn't it true that physicists in this (er, I mean, this last) century have come to the conclusion that the act of observation does indeed alter that which is being observed? --Perhaps, somehow, in a manner obscure to rational comprehension, observation by means of tarot might alter things too. I am aware of the blatant contradiction implicit in the above :D

Ivy Rhiannon	15 Jul 2004
I understand completely punchinella! My mom has the same view but not because she reads, but because of the readings I've given to her. "There all doom and gloom" was her reply. Accually she told me when I asked if I could buy me a deck, she said," I don't want you to bring anything bad into this house! No demons, or whatnot..." Can you believe that? And she reads regular playing cards!

The mistrust & superstition (a rant) thread was originally posted on 10 Jul 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.