Swords - Air or Fire? Wands - Fire or Air?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 06 Jul 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

The 78th Fool	06 Jul 2004
I really would appreciate some feedback on this guys! I personally go against tradition and prefer to attribute swords to fire and wands to air ( ironically, most of my favourite decks don't!!!!!! - I'm confused!!!!) What are your thoughts? If you change the elemental attributions, how much do you have to change the meaning ? Anyone use the Nigel Jackson, Brian Williams Renaissance , the Matt Myers Art Nouveau or the Ellen Cannon Reed Witches Tarot? If so, what do you think of the elemental swapping in these decks? How important is this too you anyway - are you like me? I can have a preference for one type of deck but happily read with the other. Any other comments ? I'm just interested to know what you think! Chris. xx

Kissa	06 Jul 2004
hope this link works: here is what you get when you do a search on the forum using "swords AND fire" as keyword. http://67.19.40.82/search.php?action=showresults&searchid=346310&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending there might be a lot of others, this is a subject often discussed here. hope that helps Kissa edited to add: also found two other threads in the "using cards" section's sticky about cards meanings (by Firemaiden). Scrowl down to the minor arcana and they are in the first section: " general" or something like that. Moderators here do a great job with these sticky threads that are regularly updated.

The 78th Fool	09 Jul 2004
Thanks Kissa, That's great. While we're on the subject, I've left a message on another thread for you. The Nigel Jackson Tarot mentioned above is really fantastic. buy it! you won't be disappointed. Chris. xx

miss_apples	09 Jul 2004
I dont think it really matters. They are YOUR cards, you can attribute to them whatever you like, whatever you see in your cards is true for you. I just hope you dont attribute swords to fire for the same reason my friend does. She attributes Swords to fire because she sees every sword card as something negative and she views all the fire signs as being negative people. Its kind of sad :(

dadsnook2000	10 Jul 2004
When I use the Witche's Tarot or any deck created with a linkage between Swords and Fire or Wands and Air I just switch over to that approach. I don't seem to feel confused and I do change the meanings I attach to the cards. I've always favored the Swords-Fire and Wands-Air connections -- probably due to my three-plus decades of astrological work. Dave.

Emily	10 Jul 2004
I do like to use the Swords/Air, Wands/Fire, Cups/Water, Coins/Earth. I think mainly because my favourite decks are this way. It does throw me when I read with a deck that changes this around and I either read them the way I always have or go with the deck theme and read them changed. But for me Swords are Air and Wands are Fire. :)

le pendu	11 Jul 2004
Me too, I go with the deck creator's call. In fact, that has become my rule of thumb with all interpretations, assign the meaning the author intended. robert

Ace	11 Jul 2004
I agree with Miss Apples. I recently was given some literature on elements in tarot that suggested we figure out our own version-do I think swords are Air or fire or what? But it just left me puzzled, what difference does it make? I read what the picture tells me, no matter what picture it is (well, scratch that: I just pulled out my Reed's Witches Tarot to see what you meant by the elements there, and found again that many of the pictures just don't say ANYTHING to me at all-although it may be the deck or me, I am not sure) I don't care that the Swords are air signs or Wands are fire (as in the Robin wood) I just read them. I think that if I need to get a message to do with that element, I will pull appropriate element cards, and notice that they are .........element.

DarkElectric	11 Jul 2004
I notice that in some of the Celtic decks Swords correspond to Fire, and Wands to Air. It's this way in my Celtic Dragon deck, and my Lo Scarabeo Celtic deck as well. When I first started becoming interested in tarot, I thought the Swords/Fire Wands/Air correspondence was the natural choice. However, as I went on, I realised that many systems use Wands/Fire because of the creative, growth oriented energy attributed to the suit of Wands. Swords/Air being the realm of intellect; the mind, thoughts being the province of Air, if you will. Both of these work for me. It seems that there may be some unspoken systemic (Celtic?) rule that dictates Swords as Fire and Wands as Air. (Please, if anyone knows what that is, or if it's even so, tell us!) But most decks do it the other way round. So I read them either way. If the deck says Swords correspond to Fire, I read them that way. If the deck attributes Air to the suit of Swords, I read them that way. I find that for me,every deck will read in an individual way, no matter what. That helps me out a lot!

inanna_tarot	11 Jul 2004
Swords are linked with fire because you needed an awful lot of heat to create swords? Plus strength and the red rage mind of a warrior to understand how you want your sword to be... not alot of logic or air involved in that with the celtic methods. Just an idea Sezo x

Cerulean	11 Jul 2004
Williams' Renaissance Tarot...which I never use, but like for the book...and the German language Zufkundst has plain pips, but the red background and some keywords seem to indicate swords are fire and yellow background for the wands are air (the book may be translated to English sometime in 2004--I'm impatiently waiting!). Now the Celtic Tarot from Lo Scarabeo uses this attribution and it seems to make sense for this old 'iron-age' depiction. I was cruising Annikin's Divination System and was curious about the Butler Tarot...and he explains his first attempt at tarot design uses swords as fire...interesting explanation... http://www.butlerart.co.uk/Tarot/Approach.htm Edited to add: whoops--I must have seen the Butler Tarot in your signature, 78th, and gone searching for that link! Sorry that I brought the question back around to an explanation you already knew. Best regards, Cerulean

jmd	12 Jul 2004
Personally, I prefer to see swords as swords - not as either fire nor air nor water nor earth, to each of which some deck or other has sword been attributed. If one reflects on the implement, in isolation of the possible elemental attribution, much can be, in my personal opinion, achieved. Holding a sword and wielding it (not a knive, dagger nor athame, which are different, though related) can also assist in reflecting on the implement, as can assisting or observing the blade's creation from a piece of raw iron (here one can see how the four elements go into its making). Reflecting also on the class of people who are supposedly fit and proper carriers, and its connection to Justice, to royalty, and to knighthood. It may of course be worth keeping in mind that the many groups and societies which derive from the Golden Dawn will prefer to maintain the views and associations promulgated by its founders - and many such groups will present their way as though it was the 'true' way. Disregarding this last as repugnant and, in my opinion, misdirected, it may be also worth reflecting that the GD variant of elemental attribution is, nonetheless, also quite sensible, and reflecting on the mutivarious reasons for the associations - especially in terms of the letters of the Tetragrammaton and the GD's preferred elemental attributions to it. When one specific element needs to be allocated, I personally prefer, as I have also mentioned in various threads, to allocate Fire as the most 'natural' element which connects with Swords...

oceanpoetry	12 Jul 2004
Personally, I prefer the association swords= fire and wands = air a la my Nigel Jackson deck. I tend to use the associations of the deck I am using for each individual reading. If I am using a traditional RW deck, then I will interpret using swords= air and wands = fire. I have the Crystals Tarot - which associates swords =water ! I like the variations - it expands my understanding of the sword cards. I will gravitate toward a particular deck depending on mood and question. Whatever element is associated, swords still represent the mental realm, intelligence, thought, reasoning...how it is helping us or hurting us.

libwitch	13 Jul 2004
I am so glad you posted this - I struggle with that too! I have a number of basic decks I love (I am not quite comfortable reading anything more abstract yet), and they all do the more traditional fire/wands etc symbolism. And since they are basic decks, the symbolism is very obvious. Mentally, I just can't switch them. My two brains start fighting - what the hell do you mean thats air? can't you see the fire symbolism? DUH! Add it to the fact that I also put air in the south and fire in the east, and I just have another layer of confuzzled. I know the Shapeshifter deck switches them - or at least I THINK it does. I am not much on animal symbols, myself... I look forward to reading this thread, Libwitch

krysia322	14 Jul 2004
Quote: I know the Shapeshifter deck switches them - or at least I THINK it does. I am not much on animal symbols, myself... Yes, the Shapeshifter deck and the Celtic Dragon deck (by the same artist and creator combo) both switch from the traditional use of Wands = Fire, Swords = Air... And it's the one thing that drives me crazy with those, or any deck that does the same. I view swords as a mental quality, connecting them to thought precision, mental struggles/debates/battles...The same qualities of the Astrology signs of the Air element. And wands as a physical, firey quality, connecting them to gut feelings, sometimes rash thought process/decision making, acting on one's heart desires as opposed to the facts... Basically the same qualities of the Astrology signs of the Fire element. When I see firey images in swords cards, like, for example, on the Celtic Dragon deck, my brain tilts; it doesn't like it. Perhaps it's due to a lack of experience on my part, but I think it's that plus the fact that having a Fire Sun sign myself, I feel more connected with wands than with swords as being my fire element card counterpart. With regard to swords symbolizing more of a "fighting weapon" than wands... I disaggree. I can also picture wands with Fire over swords because, IMO, fencing requires a certain amount of logic and detachment, whereas fighting with a wand or club seems to require less (bashing one's head with a stick or billy club seems more rash than the graceful art of sword fighting).

Cerulean	17 Jul 2004
I went through Brian William's booklet and his meanings for Swords and they seemed actually rather similar to how I would read swords in a Rider Waite Smith and a Continental Italian deck. This is addressing your question of the Renaissance Tarot booklet meanings His symbolism in designs was fire=swords, but the general meanings as written were similar to swords = swords from my superficial look. This was useful to me for an idea that I had. I typed the suit keywards and decided to use them as meanings for my unillustrated pips in my tropical-flavored Zufkundsts (being reissued in French as L'Eden in September). The majors and courts had enough suggestive illustration in its theme to help me form meanings by looking at the pictures. But the unillustrated pips and my lack of associations--no cultural or historical contexts--always were too much of a puzzle for me. I chose ways to illustrate the pips based on those keyword meanings from the Renaissance Tarot booklet..the deck has become a more useful personal reading tool for me! So using the Renaissance Tarot pip meanings as a basis for design can be helpful. Regards, Cerulean Mari

Yatima	18 Jul 2004
It seems really to be undecideable; and there are arguments for both solutions. One I found interesting, though, is to relate the suite-signs to the virtues in the trumps. This was done already 1551 by Innocentio Ringhieri in his Cento Giuochi liberali dt d’ingegno: Cups represented Temperance, Columns were Strength, Swords for Justice, and Mirrors representing Prudence. When we also take into consideration the Charles VI-deck, which exhibits these features regarding the haloed virtues in this way, in their possible relation to the elements as has been noted by Shephard 1985 and Knight 1986, namely World-Earth, Temperance-Water, we could form a clear relation of Swords to Air because Fortitude with its Column and more often with it Lion represents Fire quite clearly. Yatima

The Swords - Air or Fire? Wands - Fire or Air? thread was originally posted on 06 Jul 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.