Swords... Fire, Air, Water or Earth? [v.2]

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 17 Jul 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

jmd	17 Jul 2004
Given the number of threads in the recent past, I thought it would be interesting to cast a poll to see individual preferences. For the ease of reference, I have limited the poll to Swords, and have cast a 365-day limit for voting. I have also limited the possible answers to the four elements, even though some of us prefer to avoid direct elemental attribution. Voting is thereby by default restricted to those who do have a preferred elemental attribution. So... where do we stand as a community? Of course, even were we to all vote the same, this indicates not correctness, but rather preference....

WolfSpirit	17 Jul 2004
This is what I wrote in the earlier thread (still valid): I voted Swords=Air. I find this one the most difficult to explain; wands=fire because of the energy and enthusiasm cups=water because that seems to fit emotion coin=earth for the solid, material aspect so sword=air because that is the one that is left This way looks logical to me, but it is also what I am used to.

MeeWah	17 Jul 2004
To maintain the integrity of this (re-posted) thread, I am duplicating the original vote & post. Voted for Swords as Air. Swords seems naturally suited to the mental realm of intellect--keeness, cutting edge, clarity, detachment. An association of many years. Wands seems expressive of spirit & life; the spark that begins life; inspiration & creativity.

lunalafey	17 Jul 2004
I can go with swords being air or fire- depends upon the deck. And either way makes sense to me- but to narrow it down to just one element....If I had learned with a RWS deck, I might think differently- but the deck I dove into using the elements with the suits was a fire swords combination- and it just seems to work out well for me that way. Either way I associate it, there is always something that I can't fit into the element/suit combination....

le pendu	17 Jul 2004
Two strange thoughts. Last night while I was reading The Dancing Wu Li Masters - An Overview of the New Physics, lots of ideas were flying through my head. And I was thinking about atoms, and different types of atoms, and transforming atoms. And I was thinking about the 4 ancient elements. And for the first time it occured to me that Earth = solid, Water = liquid, Air = gas, and Fire = heat, the ability to change one into another. I've never made that connection before, it's probably elementary to you, but it stuck me as an "ah" moment. This morning when I saw this post I thought about that and another thing occured to me as I was thinking about heat = energy = the ability to transform. Cups, Coins and Swords, at least how they are usually portrayed in Tarot decks, are all forged metals. Wands is the odd man out. So for me, this is another, albiet slight, reason for the Wands = Fire connection. robert

krysia322	17 Jul 2004
My post from the original poll thread: Quote: Swords = Air , for the same reasons as the ones stated by MeeWah. :)

inanna_tarot	17 Jul 2004
hmm For me, swords are cards for cutting away some stuff to make room for more ... SO for that, i'm choosing Fire because fire has a destructive/creative side to them... BUT wands with air, doesnt seem to fit with me, wands are cards of enthusiasm and hot tempermant that you dont get with air. A difficult one Sezo x

dadsnook2000	17 Jul 2004
le pendu noted that cups, coins and swords are all forged metals. Forging is a hammering, striking, fire-related process that transforms shapes and (to a degree) the metal involved. This is a fire-based creative process. The forging of a sword is particularly a fire, striking, pressure process. Cups can be "spun" much like pottery in some cases or hammered without fire to be made. Coins can be hammered and pressed (to provide their image) and require fire only when the initial lump of metal is made. All of this leads me to view swords as being closely linked to fire. But then, Tarot is a perceptual, conceptual, intuitive process and who needs to split hairs? Dave.

tmgrl2	17 Jul 2004
I've been reading through some of the information on Kris Hadar's website. I feel comfortable thinking of the elements as described there... Four worlds of the Tree of Life with the Angel, Eagle, Lion and Bull each representing Atziluth/Emanation/Angel/Water (Cups) Briah/Creation/Eagle/Air (Swords) Yesirah/Formation/Lion/Fire (Wands) --can be burned by Fire Assiah/Action/Bull/Earth/(Coins) Water thrown on fire gives us Vapor (Air)...from the three comes Earth....hence the three visible legs on Le Bateleur and the fourth invisible since it is not yet manifest. While Swords are "forged" in fire, I still think of them as Air/Intellect. Interestingly today, I was reading about a play on the words "lame" in French (for blade or knife) and "l'ame" in French for "the soul/spirit. This, too, puts me into Swords as Air and Air as Spirit/Intellect/Soul. terri

tmgrl2	17 Jul 2004
I have been reflecting on Swords as Air more. Swords call to my ear, the swooshing sound they make in the heat of the battle. So "heat" of the battle equals, maybe, fire. But I still think of the swoosh as air and air as intellect. We talk about a "sharp" mind, a "dull" wit, to "needle" someone (to badger them with insults/words), "cutting" or "stinging" remarks. The intellect and sharpness as in knives and swords brings so much to mind. When one "crosses swords" they may be arguing. The Crusades sent knights into battle for their beliefs. My mind meandered through these thoughts during dinner tonight. Now I hear the sword of challenge swishing through the air upstairs to pull me away from AT for the evening. Well, for a while, at least. Back for more from the those who think Swords represent another element. I do see Fire here, as well, in the forging of the blade, in the heat and passion of battle, in the blood drawn from a slash. Actually, I have read Swords as Fire depending upon the spread and the cards drawn. In a reading I did for myself when I got the Gilded Tarot, I drew the Knight of Swords in the Mind position. This card told me that I was going to consume myself with overanalysis, and "burn " out. There's the "burn." Then I got Four of Cups reversed for the Body position. I was empty, overturned, spent. So, in the moment, I know I will see Fire for Swords, but I do tend to see Air more. terri

Eco74	18 Jul 2004
Mainly because wood (wands) actually fuel fire. They burn instead of resisting the flames, which the blade of a sword does. Granted the blade will yeald and melt but it will never be a foundation for fire in the way the wands are. I have also seen that in some decks (or is it only one?) the swords are used for the Water cards and the cups are used for Air. This does work even in my mind (being a novice still) but I am so much more comfortable with cups for water and swords for air that I´ll be sticking with that theme atleast for the overseable future..

Xarokys	18 Jul 2004
I voted Swords = Air, mostly because swords to me seem cold and unfeeling, even though they are forged in fire. Wands are fire to me, because I equate fire with life force and energy, among other things, and wands are the only one of the four elemental symbols which are alive.

laura_borealis	18 Jul 2004
When I first started learning about tarot I had a hard time wrapping my mind around swords=air. They felt like fire to me. Now I'm the other way. Swords are air, and wands are fire. I can no longer remember what it felt like to be convinced that swords were fire. Air just fits now. I don't think I could read them any other way.

raeanne	19 Jul 2004
Hi all, I vote for Swords=Air.

Alissa	19 Jul 2004
I always associate Swords with Fire, not Air. In my head, Wands are "mental", and are made to be swung through the air. They are the creative energy. Swords are Fire, because they are issues that cut, like a burning wound, but the cut can ultimately help, in some cases. I associate Swords as being concerns of the Ego, primarily. I've just always seen it this way - although every now and then, a reading will blur the lines. So, I have even been known to "swap" elemental meanings within a reading! I don't suppose that's terribly helpful now is it jmd??? :D

tmgrl2	19 Jul 2004
LOL, Alissa.... If we couldn't "swap" elements when they scream "swap" at us, what good would we be as readers? This happens with color for me as well...more so. terri

jmd	20 Jul 2004
Every contribution is helpful... In the previous poll (which had problems) there was a vote for Earth - which hasn't been re-cast here as yet. It should be worth pointing out (again) that each of those four elements has been attributed to the suit of swords by different authors and deck creators. Again as an example I sometimes give, the Spanish Gran Esoterico allocates Water to Swords. That the poll reflects our views is just that: our views. It could be that there may even be a 'correct' attribution which only one or none makes - or that the majority have a 'correct' view - or that there is no 'correct' single view. The elements and the tools each being four in number, and hence quantitatively matched, but not intrinsically qualitatively connected. One of my personal qualms with much of Golden Dawn materials is seeking to find connections and correlations where possibly none exists.

purple_scorp	20 Jul 2004
I voted Air because you can cut through the air with a knife (blade) = sword (blade), though sometimes you can't cut through the air. and....because I think of swords as thoughts, as in the head, and sometimes there is a lot of air in there.....lol cheers purple_scorp

morandia	20 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by laura_borealis When I first started learning about tarot I had a hard time wrapping my mind around swords=air. They felt like fire to me. Now I'm the other way. Swords are air, and wands are fire. I can no longer remember what it felt like to be convinced that swords were fire. Air just fits now. I don't think I could read them any other way. I'm starting this journey of switching my views.... up until recently, swords have always been fire to me... the forging of the metal and such, but now for some reason wands are becoming more firelike and swords more air... hmm... I wonder what is causing this transition?

Pook	21 Jul 2004
I read thru these posts before casting my vote, and though it didnt change my vote, it gave me some very enlightening food for thought. I voted swords=air and since I am just learning the suits to elemental corespondences, I love tmgrl's explanation Quote: We talk about a "sharp" mind, a "dull" wit, to "needle" someone (to badger them with insults/words), "cutting" or "stinging" remarks. The intellect and sharpness as in knives and swords brings so much to mind. When one "crosses swords" they may be arguing. The Crusades sent knights into battle for their beliefs. Also, was anyone ever in the scouts? Don't you remember rubbing two sticks (wands) together to make fire?

tmgrl2	21 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by MoonDreameR I read thru these posts before casting my vote, and though it didnt change my vote, it gave me some very enlightening food for thought. I voted swords=air and since I am just learning the suits to elemental corespondences, I love tmgrl's explanation Also, was anyone ever in the scouts? Don't you remember rubbing two sticks (wands) together to make fire? Yes! I like that about the fire-making with the two sticks! Yesterday I did a reading with TdMarseille and go Huit d'Epees. First thing that came to mind was "The pen is mightier than the sword." Sometimes, though, I still switch...if the card falls in a certain position and depending on the spread..I might think in the "heat" of the battle..having to do with swords. I think that even if we do have a particular association, it is important, as jmd and others have said, to keep open to all possibilities. terri

smleite	21 Jul 2004
Oh, tmgrl2! You really hit me with this. The pen is mightier than the sword, what a quotation! And so wonderfully related to Justice, VIII. This “transverse” way of reading the Eight of Swords reminded me of an occasion when I got the Page of Swords… and guess what? He was not pulling his sword, but rather withdrawing it back into its cover, in a gesture of peace. Cards can be read in so many ways. Silvia

smleite	21 Jul 2004
Ah, yes: I see Swords as solid air. Silvia

tmgrl2	21 Jul 2004
I love it, Silvia! When I read, after I draw, I just gaze at the cards and write down immediately what comes to me. Sometimes I don't want to include it in the reading, but the whole purpose is to trust those images and words that pop in. As Umbrae said, keep it. I like that about the Page of Swords. This Page is my personal card from the Dream Circle. A young-in-spirit person of words, intellect and wisdom, but at times not inclined to put words into action. I like the idea of peace also. terri

MeeWah	21 Jul 2004
This is an after-thought. Though I see Swords as Air most of the time based on long-time personal correlations, I forgot that certain decks associate Swords with Fire. The Nigel Jackson & the Merryday are two decks which I use on occasion. Within the context of those decks, I use the creator's correspondences which see Swords as Fire.

morandia	21 Jul 2004
I love the "rubbing sticks together = fire" idea, but what about flint and steel???? That makes fire too..... hmmm... I can really see both sides of this..

WolfSpirit	21 Jul 2004
I was just thinking...isn't there also an expression "flaming swords". I think it is something from the bible - archangels with flaming swords to keep the non-believers out I think (I am not sure what it was exactly, not a bible expert). So that would justify swords = fire

le pendu	21 Jul 2004
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. -- Genesis 3: 22-24 (KJV) Pretty cool sword! robert

le pendu	21 Jul 2004
In looking for Flaming Swords, I stumbled upon Manjushri, the Buddhist bodhisattva of wisdom, always depicted with a flaming sword! Here is a good sight: http://www.exoticindiaart.com/product/TC30/ More images: http://images.google.com/images?q=Manjushri&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi Very intersting to see the Buddhist connection between (flaming) swords and wisdom. Do those of you who make the Swords = Fire connection still hold the common Swords = Mental/Thoughts connection? In other words Swords = Fire = Mental/Thoughts, Wands = Air = Energy/Force or Swords = Fire = Energy/Force, Wands = Air = Mental/Thoughts hope that was clear! robert

WolfSpirit	21 Jul 2004
The creator of the Celtic Dragon Tarot, D.J. Conway, associates swords with fire, and she gives the following reason: Quote: I associate Wands with the Element of Air, and Swords with the Element of Fire. This association has always made more sense to me than the reverse, since Wands are primarily a mental ritual tool and Swords are an energy or action tool. In magic you use your mind - and a wand. In battle you use physical energy - and a sword. Never thought of it like that, but I like it.

purple_scorp	21 Jul 2004
WolfSpirit, yeah, I could go with that too. purple_scorp

Satori	21 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by MeeWah This is an after-thought. Though I see Swords as Air most of the time based on long-time personal correlations, I forgot that certain decks associate Swords with Fire. The Nigel Jackson & the Merryday are two decks which I use on occasion. Within the context of those decks, I use the creator's correspondences which see Swords as Fire. This was my experience with the Nigel Jackson. I shuffled and cut, then laid out my three card spread. As I gazed at the cards there were the inevitable swords in the reading and I saw immediately they were associated with fire. I went absolutely blank. Nothing happened. No associations, no meaning and I started to get very uncomfortable and felt a little sick to my stomach. It really unnerved me. And I knew going in that the correspondance for the deck was different, but I could not read the card. So, for me, Swords are Air. So let it be written, so let it be done. For me anyway!

Nevada	21 Jul 2004
Although I voted Air, I love how the Crystal Tarot appears to combine air with water on the sword cards. It makes sense to me, seeing how we have so much trouble separating thoughts from feelings, reason from intuition. Even the physical air contains humidity, in varying amounts. I like the sword's similarity to the tip of a dip pen, for communication. A real sword is born of many elements. Extracted from ore (Earth), forged in Fire, tempered in Water. Nevada

Shalott	22 Jul 2004
I voted for Air, although this was a struggle for me, too, as my initial take was Fire. It was easier for me to see Wands (Batons) as Fire than it was to see Swords as anything but. This is due to all the books on RWS relating these suits this way and I can justify it fine in my mind, what with the wooden wands/batons being flammable...BUT I am getting away from RWS now, and learning numerology to apply to Marseille. At the moment my only real resource to learn how to add the suit + number is the book that supposed to go with the Pythagorean deck. However, once I feel comfotable to "take the training wheels off," I may end up with Batons (ever see a Drum Major throw his/her Baton into the AIR?) as Air and Swords - associated to me with the heat and passions of battle - with Fire.

nocturnaldreamr	22 Jul 2004
i voted for earth (hahah my one little lonely vote)... this is why: a sword is a strong metal object, and of each of the elements earth is the strongest, solid object. i believe pentacles should switch because with the pentacles as the stars, they are up in the sky, which is air-y im totally babbling. but yah, blah. =o)

Fulgour	24 Jul 2004
There's a review of The Crystal Tarots with an interesting quote: "On the Tree of Life, where the pure intellect of Briah intertwines with the etheric framework of Yetzirah, there in the beauteous and unifying Sun of Tifaret, Chalices may contain the mercies and severity of Air, and Swords be as sharp and sweet as Water." Aeclectic Review

jmd	25 Jul 2004
I suspect that if this poll was set in Spain, we would have at least some replies in favour of Water!

Seed Crystal	25 Jul 2004
Swords as Air or Fire is actually something that has bugged me for years. *In Tarot only*, I associate Swords with Air and Mind and East, and Wands with Fire and Passions and South. Air and mind, making decisions and distinctions, cutting to the heart and seeing two alternate sides, the morning sun. Fire and Passion, impulses, the primal male, southern climes and the noonday sun, fits with Wands. My first Tarot deck was a R-W. But in all other magical arenas, I associate blades with Fire and South and noon, and Wands with Air and East and morning. Blades are forged; wands are from trees swaying in the air. I finally resolved it by becoming bilingual, as it were.

le pendu	25 Jul 2004
Seed Crystal, Welcome to Aeclectic! Are you from So. Cal? If so, the Wands = Fire makes so much sense in this climate doesn't it? Happy to see you joining in!

Seed Crystal	27 Jul 2004
Quote: Originally posted by le pendu ... Are you from So. Cal? If so, the Wands = Fire makes so much sense in this climate doesn't it? lol Maybe that's why Wands have to be air, air please not fire in this season; except in Tarot ;-)

juju	29 Jul 2004
I have been having conflicts with this for ages!! I always thought of swords as air - but then I think swords are described as cutting, harsh, swift. And those are fire qualities to me. At the same time air can be biting, cold, and harsh too. But after some thought, I think swords make sense as air because I just cannot see wands as anything but fire.

The Swords... Fire, Air, Water or Earth? [v.2] thread was originally posted on 17 Jul 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.