A Fine Mess: The Golden Dawn

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 13 Aug 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Fulgour	13 Aug 2004
Was there ever really such a thing as The Golden Dawn and should we even care? _______________________ The History of the Golden Dawn Copyright © 1997 by Chic & S. Tabatha Cicero The story of the Golden Dawn, like that of any human organization, is replete with high points and low points-with human achievements and human failings. There is no need for us to try to whitewash or sugarcoat the faults of some of the individuals who contributed to the Order's colorful history. Nor should we place them on lofty pedestals and worship them as if they were infallible gurus. They were not. The founders of the Golden Dawn were intelligent creative individuals who came together to craft a unique system of magical teachings and initiatory rites. continued: The Golden Dawn

Lee	13 Aug 2004
Hi Fulgour, I'm afraid I'm missing the point of your post. When you ask "was there ever really such a thing as the Golden Dawn," you seem to have answered your own question by linking to the article by the Ciceros which details the history of the Golden Dawn. When you ask "should we really even care," I suppose that's a question of individual taste. Personally, I'm not terribly interested in the Golden Dawn as a magickal tradition, although I do think the history of the group is interesting (and amusing), and of course most people who are interested in tarot will be at least nominally interested in seeing where some of the tarot symbolism and theory common today comes from. The Ciceros, by the way, whom you quote, are prominent Golden Dawn practictioners and promulgators, having written several books on the subject. I imagine their answer would be "yes" to "should we really even care." Or perhaps I'm being stupid and totally missing the point of your post, in which case hopefully you can enlighten me. -- Lee

Diana	13 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour Was there ever really such a thing as The Golden Dawn and should we even care? Great question, Fulgour. Especially the last part. Personally I am extremely puzzled why there was and even more puzzled as to why there still is so much ado about nothing (or to be quite fair, let's say much ado about very little). A lovely little crowd of nutcases they were (are?).

Fulgour	13 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Lee ...and of course most people who are interested in tarot will be at least nominally interested in seeing where some of the tarot symbolism and theory common today comes from. Perhaps the most magical thing about The Magician is that he can be and so is anything and everything desired. He comes to us in the guise of Le Bateleur, which translates as "the tumbler," according to The Encyclopaedia Britannica, which provides this information in regard to an acrobatic African hawk of that name. "Aleph, Beth...," began the ancient alphabets, and so it still does. Aleph comes first and represents Air-Mind ("I will, do thou now"), and then Beth ("dwelling, house, temple") is second, representing a planetary correspondence ~ but which? The Moon is the most logical, its feminine connotations aptly befitting for number Two, the number of duality and the Mother principle. Ah, but no... The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, desiring to create a proper Magus for its gifted members, and wanting Mercury for The Magician, decided that "zero equals one" and so shifted the entire Major Acrana ~ The Fool would become Aleph and go first, and then the second letter Beth's planetary niche would conveniently become available for Mercury, and The Magician. Verily, thrice great Hermes and Thoth himself were thought to represent the embodiment of Mercury, ancient Babylon's Nebo. Still, a careful reading will reveal that The Magician has retained the powers of Aleph and initiation, as well as the might of Mercury. Even the energies of the Sun are often ascribed to this singular card. Three Cheers!

Lee	13 Aug 2004
I must apologize again, Fulgour, but I still don't understand whether you are simply saying you don't agree with the Golden Dawn system, or whether you're saying something else. I also don't understand what your latest post has to do with the sentence of mine which you quoted in that post. :( All I'm saying, in response to your question "why should we care," is that much tarot literature and Golden-Dawn-inspired decks refers to material produced by Golden Dawn members, and that's usually why those interested in tarot are interested in reading about the Golden Dawn. Maybe we're just talking at cross-purposes. -- Lee

jema	13 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana A lovely little crowd of nutcases they were (are?). Are. Yeah, I guess in a way we actually are a bit nutty:-) I find that one has to have a lot of humour and be prepared to look and sound silly when practicing GD ritual. At least to the outsider.

Diana	13 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jema Are. Yeah, I guess in a way we actually are a bit nutty:-) Oh jema, I love you to bits even if you are a bit nutty. :D

kwaw	14 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Lee I must apologize again, Fulgour, but I still don't understand whether you are simply saying you don't agree with the Golden Dawn system, or whether you're saying something else. -- Lee Feel the same Lee. As it stands it seems to me that Fulgour is simply saying that Fulgour does not agree with the GD system. But as Fulgour said earlier, who cares? I don't either, does our agreement on that mean an agreement with Fulgour? Mocking the GD Fulgour, does not provide evidence for your own system. There maybe sympathy to be had in mockery, but I believe you have it in within you to be beyond that. So far Fulgour has made lists of personal correspondences, without explanation, and attacks upon the correspondences of others. What the point is eludes me, unless pointing out the weakness of other correspondences is somehow, by elimination perhaps [?], supposed to proof Fulgours's own. Personally I find it a particularly weak method of argument/proof. As well as the association by order and sequence that Fulgour finds so important, I would appreciate Fulgours interpretation of the significance/meaning of such associations, which so far has sadly been lacking. Please Fulgour, stop mocking the associations of others, if yours is so special then explain why, take us step by step through the exegisis of the symbolism you find so convincing; lists and mockery just doesn't hack it. And you assumptions about GD history would be laughable, excepting that there may be a few who take your 'authoritive' manner and statements to mean that you actually know what your talking about, which in this instance you don't appear too. Kwaw

Fulgour	14 Aug 2004
I really am glad I quit drinking, now oh so many years ago. And yet that leaves me quite with only myself to blame... when I am not funny, when my words are hurtful, when no excuse will do. What was I thinking ~ roses, or Rose's?

Rusty Neon	15 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour I really am glad I quit drinking, now oh so many years ago. And yet that leaves me quite with only myself to blame... when I am not funny, when my words are hurtful, when no excuse will do. What was I thinking ~ roses, or Rose's? What the references to Roses about?

Diana	15 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Rusty Neon What the references to Roses about? Perhaps it's: "Moses suposes his toeses are roses (or Rose's) But Moses supposes erroneously And Moses, he knowses his toeses aren't roses (or Rose's) As Moses supposes his toeses to be Moses suposes his toeses are roses (or Rose's) But Moses supposes erroneously A Rose is a rose (or a rose is Rose) A Nose is a nose A Toese is a toese Hupidubidu! (ehehehehe)" Okay, am I getting too far off-topic here? Moderator: Will I receive Divine Retribution and get scolded?

MeeWah	15 Aug 2004
Fulgour's original question appears rhetorical; intended to elicit a discussion of The Golden Dawn & need not necessarily express the personal pro or con. Though I am not very familiar with all that comprised The Golden Dawn, I understand it to have been an organization whose intent was to preserve the Western esoteric teachings. Their efforts towards that purpose resulted in lasting contributions towards ritualistic magick; towards the studies & understandings of the Qabala & of Tarot. The Tarot promoted by the creation of the RWS & of the Thoth whose individual creators were also GD members. Those decks established two Tarot traditions that continue to flourish & influence the Tarot world. & have since given rise to the myriad of the interpretive & creative efforts of writers, designers & readers. As for "...roses, or Rose's?", that echoes of the Rosicrucians, a mystery school that predates the Golden Dawn & remains a viable enitity.

The A Fine Mess: The Golden Dawn thread was originally posted on 13 Aug 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.