how do you answer this question

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 04 Aug 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

deranged_walrus	04 Aug 2004
My friend came over earlier and somewhere I mentioned my cards. The conversation is as follows: "Hey! Can you tarot for me?" "Sure." "Can I ask you something first? Do they really tell the future?" I gave her a Look. "What do you think tarot is?" "Fortune telling." "And now you're channeling the Hollywood movies that show gypsies in tents. Oi." "Then what is it?" "People ask me that. And I can never answer except with: it's NOT fortune telling or divination. At least, it shouldn't be. Not how it uses me. I think the best way to describe it is what Jude said after overhearing a reading I did for Sara, 'Wow, it's like a psychology session AND a tarot reading!' Get it? I never sit there staring at the cards and predict the future. What happens is that I lay the cards and they tell a story. The only spread I've mastered is the Celtic Cross, and it has two cards that show future POSSIBILITIES. I never tell people 'You're going to be rich and famous, but not until after your mom dies.' What I say is, 'X is possible, but only if YOU DO Y.' I always harp on the fact that destiny is bulls*** and the future is only the effect of what we do now. The cards are just an instrument in letting us know what we are capable of and what we can do with our abilities." She was a little confused, so I did a reading for her. Sure enough, the two cards ('this crowns her' and 'final outcome') showed success and contentment. I told her what could be hers, but only if she utilized her boldness and seized opportunities (2W as the 'this crosses her' and 5W as 'this is before her'). Then she understood, paying attention to what I said, "You can have fame...if you work for it." That finally fixed her misconceptions about tarot being a means of fortune telling. Made me feel good, spreading the truth. Does anyone else come across this question from querents? Do you answer it the way I do? If not, how?

tao51	04 Aug 2004
you are around people who cannot differentiate between advise and expansion of events. The Roma people who used Tarot were not fortune telling. They were using the cards to help divine situations. People want to hear they are going to meet a wonderful soulmate aor make one million on the lottery. The movie stories of "gypsies" are based on stereotypes which most Romani laugh and tell jokes. Tarot reading rooms are in many cities. They provide understanding of events and--yes--future influences. I hear silly comments like the conversation that you reported. I get questions like "Can you tell me when I am going to die?" None of the people that I choose to do a reading have such misinformation. My younger son startled a friend of his by saying "Don't touch the cards because they are cursed! They must be arranged a certain way to keep bad things from happening." The boy grabbed a bag and received a cramp in his hand. The boy left muttering unpleasant statements. His bike's chain fell off the sprocket causing him to lose some contol of his bike. I received a tongue-in-cheek call from his mother asking about black magic. I told her that it was the wrong time of the day for that. She laughed because her son felt he had been cursed. The boy does this serious swerve when passing my desk. Those silly comments will always be around because misinformation is preferable to the real information.--Tao

Shade	05 Aug 2004
Some of us do use the Tarot to predict the future, I think the important distinction you are trying to make is that you personally use the cards for something different. I would emphasize that this is your personal conenction with the tarot... this way when they meet someone else who works with the cards differently they don't assumed you have no idea what you are talking about or weren't completely honest with them. Also this approach makes you a specialist in your field of tarot. Which I think means you get to wear a special hat and get better parking anda corner office.

allibee	05 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Shade Some of us do use the Tarot to predict the future you do? Well let's hope that not a single person makes a single change of mind about anything then. One cannot predict anything more than 'possibilities' due to the nature and vagueries of human freewill. deranged_walrus: This is from my site.... "Do you want your future predicted? I know I don't, because that would mean my future is set in stone, which it most definately isn't. That would mean there would be no free will, no choices and definately no point in looking for help, ideas or guidance. It would be more like bereavement counselling. Imagine how awful it would be if it were a case of: Hey you ... you're going to have a really terrible life, there's no way out, you might just aswell accept it! So, what are you saying -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm saying that a simple change of mind can change everything and, while our destination may be chiselled into rock, it's how we get there that counts. The journey -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- you can take the express route, picking up speed, driving by the seat of your pants, and going much too fast to take in the scenery. Strong likelihood of losing control, mechanical failure or running out of steam. you can take the back country route, stopping off at all points to sample the local delights but never really getting anywhere. A strong likelihood of getting lost or having to backtrack. Or... you can take the informed route. The route that is a little more clearly signposted with a good mix of scenery and experiences, but with as few major detours as possible, and a lot less stress. Strong likelihood of getting where you want to be:O) Tarot is a tool -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The tarot is, quite simply, one of the most incredible 'life tools' you can have in your armoury. Life is full of questions, and if we had it all completely figured out, then we would not need the tarot... or any other tool of divination or oracle. But as it stands, life is - as someone said - like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get. I came to the tarot many years ago in what felt like my most desperate hour. Many people do, when all else seems to fail. But the longest, darkest hours have long since passed out of my life, as have done many people and situations, however the tarot remains with me always. It is not something I use or need everyday or all the time, but it's like a metal detector when you are looking for a needle in a haystack. It gives us options and possibilities, where there may have visibly been none on the surface before. So how does the tool work -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tarot works like a mirror in that it brings to the surface what we need to know, but have hidden or lost in our subconscious for whatever reason, using the trigger of Archetypes. You know those - the strong, silent type, the opportunist, the control freak, the carer, the tree huggin' hippy, the King Midas type, et al. They are all there in your life. Either aspects of you, like pieces of a personal jigsaw, or around you: at work; at home; down the pub! The tarot alerts us to their presence, the need for them, or the need to scrape them off. Add to this the symbology of the Minor cards which speak of a place in time, and we can see a picture form, a situation develop. In short, tarot tells it like it is! From this new awareness, this eye opening, you become self empowered to deal with the situation or problem at hand. The tarot helps you on your journey because you get put back in the driving seat of your own life. You decide where you are going, and what you are going to do when you get there! Hope that helps

Shalott	05 Aug 2004
They say, and I'm paraphrasing, in the "Complete Idiot's Guide to Tarot and Fortune Telling" that Tarot only predicts the future as far as the most likely outcome if you stay on your present path, and that it CAN be changed. I try to tell ppl that Tarot is better at seeing into the present than the future: hidden influences, things your subconscious has picked up on and not necessarily brought to your conscious mind, like dreams. TV and movies has really brought us a double-edged sword: it's brought awareness to Tarot, and maybe even played a part and bringing some of us to it...but for some, it's given them expectations that are simply unrealistic, and left us to fix that problem! It gives us something to think about, one of many ideas to consider when making a decision. There have been times when I would have been better off to follow the advice I've gotten from a reader; one thing to remember is that the cards (themselves, I know this is something we as readers struggle with at times) are objective. This gives them a little leg up in my mind. To sum up...I think divination is part of it, but it's definitely not ALL it is, those of us who are serious students realize that there is SO much more to it. Sometimes we have to help our clients unlearn.

anjocoxo	05 Aug 2004
I always give the same example (probably I've post it here in AT before) when people ask me about free-will and predicting the future. I usually say that if I say "if you keep on eating one chocolate per day, by the end of the year you'll have extra 10 kilos" and if the person actually listens to what I say and stop eating chocolates, s/he won't get the extra 10 kilos. The important thing is what you can do now to change the probable outcome. Too bad most of the people I read cards to never understand this, and just skip (in their minds) everything I say about their personality and behaviour... which is the most important part, in my opinion. anjo

Shade	05 Aug 2004
Ok this I do not get about this forum. No one ever makes absolute statements on here because we all want to allow for the diverse experiences of people and their decks. Some people use the tarot as meditation aids, spell focuses, past life regression, psycho-analysis, dream analysis and that's fine but when people say that they use the cards to predict the future people attack. If I said "You can't do past life regression, people don't have past lives!" people would be very upset (and rightly so). I stated that I didn't think Tarot was compatible with a literal translation of the Bible (in another thread) and that got shot down because it is important to honor the beliefs peopel have and some folks believe that Tarot and their Bible go hand in hand. After marinating on this for a while I decided that these people had a point and it wasn't my place to make an extreme statement like that. I'm bringing this up because I've noticed a serious trend developing. In the "tarot is magic" thread a number of people mentioned that they didn't believe in magick and silly things like "wishing on candles". As a person who has cast spells I was offended. I'm sure it's just the natural swing of the pendulum. I know some people want to rescue tarot from its image of old gypsy women rolling their eyes back and saying "De cards have a-spoken you are cursed and will die!" I know some people cringe when they hear the words 'fortune telling'" as it brings up stereotypes they are uncomfortable with. I get that Tarot is a big wonderful tool with many more facets than I will probably ever pursue in my lifetime. I use it for a number of different pursuits including the aformentioned meditation and dream analysis. In my response to Deranged Walrus I said that it was important for her/him to make it clear what he/she uses tarot so people understand better. People have been debating fate versus free will for years and last I checked no one has completely won that debate. Some people on this site do to some degree believe in concepts like fate, destiny, karma, Clotho Atropos and Lachesis, etc. Some people think that every individual person is in complete control of every moment of his or her life. There's lots of necessary gray area folks too. When i say that I use the tarot to,among other things, predict the future that is what I mean... I believe it is possible to do it and I do it. I don't imagine that everyone would be interested in doing that or believe it's possible. But I would really appreciate it if folks didn't tell me that I can't really do that. On a side note I know that it can be very difficult to register a person's tone on a message board... I hope it doesn't sound like I'm flying off the handle or viscerally upset, I just wanted to speak to a trend that I noticed that has been bothering me. On a semi-humourous side side note regardng fate/free will gray area, I know of several people who subscribe to a "Free will, we are in charge" way of thinking and when my cat died last year to comfort me they all told me "Well it was her time." I've always thought that was fairly ironic.

Sillanza	05 Aug 2004
The answer I use is yes it's a tool for understanding oneself and a given scenario. And, yes, it is also a tool for divination, so long as you realize and accept that it's diviniation of outcomes based on the energies of the present moment. If a butterfly flaps its wings ... chaos! For me, it's also cheaper than therapy, but I think that might not be true for some of you serious tarotholics. ;) While I'm a firm beleiver in everything happening for a reason, and to a certain degree, predestination, I am more a believer in the plasticity of the future. That's called "hope."

Shalott	05 Aug 2004
Shade: I think it's partially that divination or "fortune telling" has gotten a bad name. Funny, I kind of lump "divination" and "meditation" together: both give insight that I (or the Querant) didn't have, or didn't realize I had, before. But I completely agree with the ideas in your post, sometimes TOO much can be lost in translation from human-speak to political correctness. If ya ever want a complete LACK of political correctness, PM me! LOL!!!

Sulis	05 Aug 2004
To say that you use tarot for 'predicting the future' is not saying that the future is set in stone. Most people who say they don't use tarot for divination will admit that they often use spreads which have a 'future' position or a 'probable outcome' postition. To me this is divination. I don't see anything wrong with 'prediction' or by saying what may happen in the future, so long as you realise that nothing is absolute, the future can be changed. :) So Shade, I for one agree with you :) Love Sulis xx

Logiatrix	05 Aug 2004
This is what I posted in a simillarly-focused thread from a while back: I was speaking to a guy who works at a restaurant I frequent, and he respectfully asked me about my 'card thing' that he's seen me do. He asked, "So, do you like, see your future, or what? I mean, what is it?" It kinda threw me off-guard, but.... I told him that I'm basically like a map-reader, a Spiritual Cartographer, so-to-speak. "So, say I'm giving you a reading..." I said. "As my querent, it is a segment of your life-journey that we are looking at on this map. The 'map' is the spread of cards that I lay before us; my job is to help you understand the map." "There are many paths on the map," I explained, "and it is my job as the reader to tell you what you can expect on these paths as you make your way through life." He seemed to understand that. I also brought up the issue of Free Will--that he can still take whatever route on the map he chooses to take, and that there are many versions of Point 'A' to Point 'B'.... I've presented this analogy several times since then, and it especially seems to diffuse those individuals who are ready to poke holes in what they assume will be a weak and fumbling promotion of fortune-telling. :D EDITED to add: Here's that other thread, in case you want to check it out... http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?threadid=23513&highlight=Ideas :)

tao51	05 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Shade Some of us do use the Tarot to predict the future, Shade, I hope you mean more like future possibilities. Since free will is always in the mix. I usually say "If all events and conditions remain the same then..." Tarot is a tool of understanding. It is frightening to think that someone would make a life/death decision based on the vagueries of a Tarot reading. My favorite Tarot readings have described the process of change. It has shown many people how to alter their lifestyles in order to be happier. I would rather think of Tarot as an instrument of change than of future forecasting. I hold Tarot reading with the deepest respect.--Tao

Shade	05 Aug 2004
Tao I completely understand your concern and I can see your point of view and I want to affirm that I think in many cases people have the power to direct their own lives... however... I do believe that one can predict the future with the cards. And the vagueries of tarot reading? I find they often aren't that vague. Some people do believe in some concept of fate. I don't believe this removes personal responsibility from the mix. My main point in posting however is that I'm uncomfortable with the way posters can be careful to allow for a wide range of belief systems yet write off the possibility of tarot and predicting the future. To use my earlier example imagine this conversation on the boards. X: Today I had a great reading about my past lives, it was very inciteful to understand what I have been through and what path my soul has taken to this place. Shade: Well X, I just wanted to point out that you actually haven't had any past lives that's a common misconception I'd like to get cleared up. What the Tarot is really doing is showing you different facets of your current life and how they are coming into play. X: Umm well maybe some people read in that way but I actually do believe that the soul can return in many incarnations on its path to enlightenment. I'm using the tarot to gain insight into some of my past incarnations and what my purpose is right now. Shade: Well X really how very disempowering of you. Why would you want to believ that some "previous lives" have any influence on what is happening to you right now. You are in charge and it's just plain wacky for you to go about saying that your current path is directed by some "previous incarnation". I mean can you hear yourself? How would you feel about this type of conversation? I was a big proponent of the "you can do anything you set your mind to" tarot school for a long time. One day I had an amazing reading with a prominent reader from my area. She was giving me all kinds of deep, complex answers about what was going on in my life and what I might want to work on. I brought up a guy I had recently dated and mentioned that I was hoping to slowly integrate him back into my life in some way. She looked at me and said "No that will never happen." Not "That is highly unlikely" or "That probably isnt best for you." And even though I defied her prediction for over a year she was right. While most of her answers were based on the importance of personal choice every once in a while she was ready for the absolutes. And that's her style. Some people really do believe in some concept of "fate" or "destiny" or "god's plan". Some people believe that people die when it's "their time".

tao51	05 Aug 2004
I have done relationship readings where I said "He/she is not the one!" It did hold true. I have seen a job advancement which held true. I do feel that Tarot reading is capable of fitting in almost any belief system. An athiest can find the Tarot useful. Whether a person believes in reinstatement or reincarnation is up to the individual. The Tarot cards are a tool to help understand. Many times events of the future are vague. The Tarot is a tool to help bring them into focus. It may examine it from various angles. I have read for many people. Some have made important changes in their lifestyle based on several readings. Many of my ancestors were rebuked when their readings were not pleasing to the querent. I do see your point, Shade. Actually, I see that we have points of agreement. I found your comments both refreshing and stimulating!--Tao

Imagemaker	05 Aug 2004
Great thread! One point comes to mind--in many readings people ask what another person thinks or feels. Though the cards are often highly accurate about the querent, I never trust or expect that they're accurate about some third party's feelings or attitudes. Many querents who ask relationship questions seem to hope the other person is a puppet who can be placed and moved according to the querent's desires. But once we remember we're trying to read multiple people's free-will choices, the future becomes a constantly shifting kaleidoscope of possibilities. I take the approach that the tarot reading can only be about the querent's actions and prospects on the path.

allibee	05 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Imagemaker in many readings people ask what another person thinks or feels. LOL, and therein you have another ethics nightmare which has also been discussed quite heatedly ... to 'snoop' on a third party without their knowledge or consent ... but that is another thread entirely :)

Cerulean	05 Aug 2004
Tao's note: It is frightening to think that someone would make a life/death decision based on the vagueries of a Tarot reading. My favorite Tarot readings have described the process of change. It has shown many people how to alter their lifestyles in order to be happier. I would rather think of Tarot as an instrument of change than of future forecasting... -------------------------------------------------- The reason I agree more with Tao is perhaps something I saw and experienced some years ago. I think Tao's style of reading agrees more with how I do tarot--but it's because I didn't have Shade's good experience with such a forecast. I was visiting a very nice friend of a friend who loved new age topics. She was the most sincere and genuine type of person--she raised and rescued many stray animals and worked with animals professionally. I was told that evening she was bringing some sort of oracle cards and could do readings with them...a young couple with a question asked their concerns first. It was a fourth time that the woman was attempting to carry a baby to full term and they asked the outcome. The sincere reader talked of carefulness and felt positive. I felt sadness amid hope and that's all I was able to reflect--I wasn't into oracle cards at all, so I didn't think my reflection or feeling had anything to do with their situation. The reader got to me and I was curious how she saw my then relationship. What she saw was not a reflection that I could identify with. She also saw a past life link that I said would give me food for thought, but whenever I remember it, I don't have any affinity or feeling for it being true. But by then I was sneezing terribly because the brood of tiny kittens she was raising had their dander all over me...I thanked her very much but now I realize it seems like the reading from hell. I think it was a decade or so before I even looked into oracle or tarot cards as in interest. Even now when I do volunteer readings, I emphasize that I "suggest possibilities or reflections to their situations that occur to me in terms of the card pull and their question." The tarot decks that work for me best this way include the Ananda and Italian historical decks first, then sometimes art theme decks. Sometimes the reader, with all their good intentions, doesn't click with person receiving the reading. And so my experience in receiving a future possibility or past-life reading wasn't so good, so it's tainted my judgment. Anyway, I'm reading Karmic Tarot out of curiousity and interest to see if I can do anything with those kinds of spreads...so far, it is emphasizing my connections with family and cultural history stories Thanks for this interesting discussion. Hope this does pertain to your discussion! Cerulean

Persha	05 Aug 2004
I reckon Tarot (ideally) tells the truth. Incidentally, on the whole prediction=fate thing, a definite future prediction does not have to cancel out free will. If, for example, you predicted someone was going to move to Canada in a years time, that doesn't mean that the person in question didn't make the decision of their own free will - you just figured it out ahead of time. When I was a baby my mum had to decide whether to stay at home with me or go back to work. She agonised about it for ages but finally decided to stay home. When she told my dad her decision, he told her he'd known all along that's what she would do. That doesn't mean my mum had no free will - my dad was just very perceptive. Tervist, Persha

Umbrae	06 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Shade Some of us do use the Tarot to predict the future…I would emphasize that this is your personal conenction with the tarot... I completely agree. Right on Shade. It’s also all of the afore mentioned things – it’s a tool. Like a hammer or a left-handed metric crescent wrench – it’s what we make of it. And if Divination ain’t fortune telling…best go to a dictionary and choose a different noun. Cuz there are times…when it/we do exactly that. Sometimes the cards tell you not to cross the street for that newspaper cuz the ice-cream truck will run you down – so you don’t buy the newspaper from across the street…and by golly the sucker jumps the sidewalk and splat...death by ice-cream truck. Read long enough, and you find that divination is the best noun you can use. :smoker:

The how do you answer this question thread was originally posted on 04 Aug 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.