*New Question* .. the artist & the dialog

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 02 Aug 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Dark Inquisitor	02 Aug 2004
Continuing in the vein of serious questions to consider about the nature of tarot, my questions are specifically directed to this tarot: http://www.camoin.com/tarot_fr/regarder_tmt/voir_tmt.asp Which we will , *regard for the purposes of this argument* as the original tarot ancestor of all others. Whether it came originally from Italy and was copied as Marseilles or not. In the work of the creative artist , ... (And we cannot know if the original tarot was created by someone who then had it carved into woodblock for printing, or if the creator is also the person who did the drawings for carvings - for this discussion we will have to assume they are the same entity since it is easier and does not really make a difference to the substance necessarily at this point. ) In the work of the creative artist, (he, she , or it) there is usually something left behind of themselves. Whether consciously or unconsciously . In some part of the form, there is buried that unique person if we are only aware of what we are looking for. And in the work, the artist presents a point of view he wishes to convey to his presumed audience . They are , on some level , engaging in a dialog. Of course, the audience is not there for the creation, but only after the fact. Nonetheless, while creating , the artist has in his mind a give and take between himself and the viewer. a) The artist : Step inside each of the major arcana . Which mask does the artist hide behind ? Which one is he? b) The audience : Which of the major arcana represents the audience? The collective us? c) The dialog : What is mask A saying to mask B? Is it the Devil talking to the Hierophant ? The Chariot talking to Lovers??, etc. -- What is the substance of the dialog between the original artist and his audience ??......

firemaiden	02 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Dark Inquisitor a) The artist : Step inside each of the major arcana . Which mask does the artist hide behind ? Which one is he? b) The audience : Which of the major arcana represents the audience? The collective us? c) The dialog : What is mask A saying to mask B? Is it the Devil talking to the Hierophant ? The Chariot talking to Lovers??, etc. -- What is the substance of the dialog between the original artist and his audience ??...... I do not believe that any one artist created the tarot, but rather that it evolved from many sources, incorporating topoi from medieval europe, and indeed from antiquity...belonging to the collective mythos of the time - as witness the stone carvings on French cathedrals of the 12th-13th century, and Greek and Roman numismatic effigies, just for starters. However, if any one card represents "the Artist" as a topos unto itself, for me, that would have to be the Fool. However it could also be the HP, for me she is a "medium" (in all senses of the word) or the Hermit who lights the way... or... the Bateleur whose sleight of hand speaks of the artifice in Art Perhaps it could be any of the major arcana? Who represents the audience? that's tougher. hmmmmmm. I'd say the viewer, and not anyone in the cards. Unless it is the Bateleur, who, as Diana teaches us, is sometimes seen as the one doing the journey. And the dialogue? ahh... "Go west young man, and look to the mystery"

Goldenhair	03 Aug 2004
A. The Artist - a collaboration between The Magician and The High Priestess. One manipulates matter, one manipulates ideas and both manipulate energy/spirit. B. The Audience - The Fool - for we are all on a journey to learn. C. Dialogue - "Come along with us and experience, learn, change, reflect and grow. To live is to learn."

Fulgour	18 Aug 2004
I wish I could go along with you here on this, but for me the Jean Dodal is so full of flavour and joy ~ it's my first.

RedMaple	20 Aug 2004
[quote]Originally posted by Dark Inquisitor The artist presents a point of view he wishes to convey to his presumed audience . They are , on some level , engaging in a dialog. Of course, the audience is not there for the creation, but only after the fact. Nonetheless, while creating , the artist has in his mind a give and take between himself and the viewer. a) The artist : Step inside each of the major arcana . Which mask does the artist hide behind ? Which one is he? b) The audience : Which of the major arcana represents the audience? The collective us? As a poet and artist, my process is one of exploration. I start with an image or sound that won't let me go, and I follow it. If I already knew just what I wanted to express, what would be the point of doing it? It has to be a surprise to me. My first audience is myself, I have to please me. This is true for all artists - they are their own first audiences. Because that is so, I have to respect the audience out there as if they are myself. Of course, the journey I take in each creation reflects who I am at that point. But with folk art that has been handed down through centuries - like fairy and folk tales that were handed down orally for centuries before anyone wrote them down - the individual egos of the original tellers is erased by the community voice. I feel you have to look at the entire deck, which is a book in cards. To ask which card is "really" the artist or the audience doesn't really make sense, especially since there have been so many artists and readers involved. If the Tarot is an art form, and I believe it is, it is a process of discovery, it is a collaborative process - like theatre or film, or all good storytelling. To say that the deck is a conversation between the "Devil" and the "Heirophant" seems a little like Christian paranoia to me (no offense meant -- we live in a culture where there is fear of anything different.) But to me it is like saying that Darth Vader is the real voice of Steven Spielberg or George Lucas, and that we are all R2D2. It doesn't make sense. You have to look at the whole story. The Devil and the Heirophant are characters in a story that reflect forces we recognize in our lives (for example, temptation, addiction, bondage and conformity, teachers, institutions). The Fool, no matter how it may have begun, is a common element in folk stories in Europe, and the Tarot is, as I see it, part of that tradition.

Dark Inquisitor	20 Aug 2004
[quote]Originally posted by RedMaple " My first audience is myself, I have to please me. This is true for all artists - they are their own first audiences." >>>> This may be so on one level. However with functional art -such as a deck of cards to be sold , something destined for the general public , the artist may wish to make a statement or adapt his style to please the masses more than himself. (And , even if he makes an assemblage or collage of images he has not personally initially created , there is still a personal message or reflection within the structure of the whole. ) "I feel you have to look at the entire deck, which is a book in cards. To ask which card is "really" the artist or the audience doesn't really make sense, especially since there have been so many artists and readers involved. " >>> For the purposes of this experiment, we are only looking at the Tarot de Marseilles. (And so there can be no High Priestess , because that deck doesn't have one, strictly speaking. ) "To say that the deck is a conversation between the "Devil" and the "Heirophant" seems a little like Christian paranoia to me " >>That is not how I see the cards, but there are some that may. If you were a rigidly religious and fearful person, you might see the conversation as the Devil speaking to the World. All very subjective. "The Devil and the Heirophant are characters in a story that reflect forces we recognize in our lives (for example, temptation, addiction, bondage and conformity, teachers, institutions). The Fool, no matter how it may have begun, is a common element in folk stories in Europe, and the Tarot is, as I see it, part of that tradition. " >>>All very true . For some. The Fool as common element is very key. As I said in a previous thread, if anyone says they have not been a fool at some point in their lives, they are lying. The Fool seems to represent us/mankind collectively . We cannot claim to be the Sun, the Moon, etc. , or many of the other cards . But the Fool is common to all. But the other question remains whether it seems to make any sense or not . Who is the artist ? Is he the Heirophant talking to the Fool in a series of moral conversations to elevate his soul? Is he the Devil preying on the unsuspecting Fool to corrupt him and lead him to hell with pretty pictures? Is he Justice telling the Fool right from wrong? Which card would best represent an artist anyway?

Fulgour	20 Aug 2004
Shakespeare as Le Pendu O for my sake do you with Fortune chide The guilty goddess of my harmful deeds That did not better for my life provide Than public means which public manners breeds Thence comes it that my name receives a brand And almost thence my nature is subdued To what it works in like the dyer's hand Pity me then and wish I were renew'd Whilst like a willing patient I will drink Potions of eisel 'gainst my strong infection No bitterness that I will bitter think Nor double penance to correct correction Pity me then dear friend and I assure ye Even that your pity is enough to cure me

Diana	20 Aug 2004
I think the Major and the Minor Arcana are not talking to the Fool. I believe, nay I am convinced, that they are talking to Le Bateleur (Arcanum I). Each and every one of them. The Fool doesn't listen to anyone. He couldn't give a damn. And anyone who has any sense won't waste their time talking to him either, because they would be wasting their breath. And as the Tarot Arcana have a lot of sense.... Like I have said a million times before, to the point of boring people to tears, it is not the Fool's Journey. It is the Journey of the Bateleur.

Fulgour	20 Aug 2004
Musings for a Sunny Afternoon... What is L'Imperatrice sitting upon; What is L'Hermite hiding under his cloak; What is La Force keeping in the lion's mouth; What does Le Pendu have behind his back; and What is Le Fol carrying in his sack?

The *New Question* .. the artist & the dialog thread was originally posted on 02 Aug 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.