Tarot and Technology?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 25 Aug 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Niomi	25 Aug 2004
I have a question. I have been wondering about this lately, and since Ciro's next project, Tarot of Dreams has been announced, I think it's even more important. As you may or may not know, Tarot of Dreams comes with an accompanying computer CD that has animated cards. I assume (not sure about this) that you'd do readings with the animated cards on the computer. I wonder, how do you feel about the marriage of tarot and technology? Don't get me wrong, I love technology. I met my real life friends over the internet, and I'm considering making a living, spending the rest of my life working with computers. I love learning about the tarot and talking about it here at Aeclectic. But. I'm not sure I like the idea of blending the two. For study, of course, I'd probably buy the Tarot of Dreams when it comes out. But, I don't think I could ever read with it, at least on the computer, and here's why... Tarot is the thing I do when I don't want to stare at a screen anymore. I spend whole days on the computer, I refer to my computers by name, and it seems that having tarot and the computer in the same package would be ideal. But... I love the feel of shuffling the cards, looking at them, moving them around, the reality of tarot. It's something that you can touch, feel, and manipulate in your hands. Doing it on the computer would not be the same for me. Please understand that I'm not talking about Ciro or his beautiful new deck specifically. I'm just wondering about tarot and computers in general, and using his new project as an example. Of course, maybe I'm talking too soon. I'm willing to give the computer readings a chance. How do you feel? Your opinion is appreciated. :)

zoso	25 Aug 2004
I think computers are a great way to learn and communicate about tarot, but I agree with you about the presence and feel of the cards in your hands as you shuffle and lay them out. There is something very relaxing and--at the same time--exciting about holding them and being able to look at them in front of you instead of staring at a screen. But, I don't know if validity is what you are asking about . . .I've had great readings from computer-generated cards on web sites. But, there is nothing better than doing it yourself and finding that confidence in a reading that came from your own two hands.

darwinia	25 Aug 2004
Similar to eBooks, I find using tarot software uncomfortable and hard on the eyes and can't use my glasses when reading online. It also hurts my neck and shoulders to read on the computer and I don't assimilate the information well because of the physical barrier and strain on my eyes. I have RSI, and the last thing I need to do is spend more hours on the computer using a mouse, Wacom stylus, or typing. I already have chronic nerve pain and permanent damage from that. For me, a CD would end up unused on the shelf. I like cards and books. If something came exclusively on CD I would never buy it. The cards take me out of myself, there's a meditative and intuitive thing I get from holding them and shuffling or simply pondering them over a cup of tea. The same thing doesn't happen with a computer. It's like getting lost in a book while reading in bed, you can't do that online.

Alta	25 Aug 2004
I had those same doubts when I read about Tarot of Dreams. Couple of reasons. The first one is the one so ably laid out in the first post. The second is how he says he intends to do it. he plans to have several changing symbols on each card, some of which will be randomly selected for each reading. That is, so to speak, counter-intuitive. If you read intuitively, the card details that grab your attention for a particular reading are important. And the program chooses to hide those details that time, randomly. hum. I also think that I would not use such a program past say a few readings.

Eco74	25 Aug 2004
Maybe not for readings, though it may well work for that aswell. (Personally though, I like cardstock in my hands.) It strikes me as an interesting way to study the tarot though. Bringing out different details different times the card is pulled it could change the view on the card from time to time in a more "forced" way which can be useful for those of us who feel "we know this card soo well". Could keep us on our toes a bit more and open up our minds again if they have become a little rigid. So for studying, and for seeing cards "come to life" in a practical sense, I think even I would find this useful. But for readings, I too will stick to the cardboard..

Ravenswing	25 Aug 2004
Well... Seems like we all agree here. Nothing beats touch. When I do my artwork, I use a brush or a pencil. When I read, it's a book. When I do tarot, it's a physical deck that I use. And the greatest form of human communacation is a touch. There's something I find a bit strange about the computer and cards. Does anyone play solitaire on the computer? I know many people who do. Give them a deck of cards and they'll play a few games. Stick them on a computer with a solitaire program and they'll spend hours... fly well Raven

maria42airam	25 Aug 2004
I feel very comfortable around computers. I've been supporting them since '77. Up until now there's only one thing I didn't feel comfortable doing on the computer, and that is drawing. For some reason, creativity just did not flow with any package I tried. Tarot is now a second one. The computer software is great for research, comparison, communicating with others on the subject, but, for me, the setting and the deck in my hands is integral to the connection. I just don't "feel" it when the cards are on the screen. Now, I'm a newbie to Tarot. I've read on the 'net where people say they don't even need the cards anymore. They can listen to the question and pictures of the cards appear in their mind. So maybe there are other ways... Maria

Flavio	25 Aug 2004
I agree in the points of view that computers are great for study and communicate about Tarot, but not for actual readings, maybe I would try on PDA but not in a desktop. Sometimes I do illustrated files with my readings but they are only to keep the record, reading don't depend of the computer, I'm not worried about how "accurate" computer synchronicity might be, it just feel right for me to shuffle and spread the cards.

Lee	25 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Marion [...] he plans to have several changing symbols on each card, some of which will be randomly selected for each reading. That is, so to speak, counter-intuitive. If you read intuitively, the card details that grab your attention for a particular reading are important. And the program chooses to hide those details that time, randomly. [...] Hi Marion, I think the way Ciro envisions this is that someone will be doing a reading with the physical deck, and if they turn over a card and wish to get further insight, they could click on that card in the computer program, and that card would display, along with some symbols appearing randomly. So the card as displayed on the computer would act as an adjunct to the physical reading. -- Lee

Emily	25 Aug 2004
I'd love to have a CD with all different tarot decks on it for comparison but for reading I like to have a deck in my hands. I've tried one of the, I think worse, tarot programmes on CD and I didn't like it. I felt disjointed from the cards, I felt nothing, I lost interest way before the reading appeared on the screen.

cirom	25 Aug 2004
I must admit I expected that some people would probably feel uncomfortable with the idea of using a computer as a part of their tarot experience. Although that need'nt be too much of a issue after all its via this same medium that we're regularly communicating here on aeclectic. Nevertheless I believe that the concept has been misunderstood somewhat. So I think its worth noting the following, and I refer to the information on my web site. The tarot of dreams is NOT a computer based tarot deck, the backbone of this project is still a fully illustrated hands on touchy feely 78 card deck. The CD is an EXTRA that can be used optionally in a variety of ways. It could be used once only as say a companion book for explanation of the symbology and imagery of the cards and then discarded if that is ones choice. (and even then it could be printed out and read as a hard copy) It can be used as a personal means of deeper study and meditation of the major cards' the animation providing variety and alternative views. If you find this distracting and would prefer to always refer to the same image, then once again you have the physical deck, or don't push the "play" button. The same applies to its use for reading, if you feel the extra features of size, movement etc will add to the experience either for you or you client, wonderfull. If on the other hand you feel it would interfere with or diminish the experience. Once again its optional. My intention is to use the technology to provide an extra dimension to the traditional tarot experience not to replace it.

Eco74	25 Aug 2004
Souns positively lovely Cirom. Not only are you very forward-thinking in this project, your'e also taking consideration to the "touchy feely needy" readers out there. (I am one of them so I can call us that..) :)

darwinia	25 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Ravenswing Give them a deck of cards and they'll play a few games. Stick them on a computer with a solitaire program and they'll spend hours... I used to play solitaire for hours when I was a teenager--used to do it in front of the TV with a leaf from the kitchen table for a "desk" and I'd spend hours. There's a logical beat to such card games, the logic of testing your own mind on the details, which is soooothing because it has a visual component too. Playing solitaire on computers where the light from the screen tends to block out reality as well, makes it like becoming part of the picture say. With computers, I really, really think it's a meditative right brain kind of thing. I don't play computer games anymore although I do have the MoreJongg CD (wicked laugh), but I do constantly lose myself in graphics programs. I particularly like the approach which I also take with tarot cards, of generating something randomly and then doing a whole picture with it. It's like looking at clouds and visualizing them as an object and creating the story in your mind. I could lose myself in Photoshop or Illustrator for hours without noticing. It's like creating real world art. I also find e-mail the same. Two hours goes by and you still aren't finished. Instant messaging programs can beguile this way and chat forums, although I become irritated by the vacuousness of such exchanges and pull out from the mesmeric effect in a way I don't when in a solitary pursuit. It's a way of shutting off the brain, or at least the chattering aspect of it, and people are probably enjoying that rather than any challenge or delight in repeating the card game. But, isn't that what TV does too, it lulls us into thinking we are doing something productive or learning, when other actions would be truly productive. People don't learn as effectively by channeling (excuse pun!) information, they need inner analysis and solitary effort to assimilate it and remember or be able to act with it. Here's a tie-in with tarot...do you learn intuition and memorization and understanding of archetypes and inter-relatedness and meaning of such things by watching TV or reading a book on it? No, there has to be action and effort and practice to truly become involved and understand it. Chickety ching, chickety ching, the big computer of the human brain must do its own collation and draw information from all the senses before the penny drops. For this reason, I doubt the same effect could be achieved with a tarot computer program, there is something about hands-on practice, touch as you say, that imprints the information. A computer screen tunes out part of the analytical process which is also a process used for assimilation and understanding. We are fogged in a dreamlike repetition instead of paying attention with all our senses. Think of being a child, when you didn't filter or perceive things with bias. What's the first thing you did when confronted with something new or puzzling? Remember, you reached out to touch it, because your senses needed to shoot information to the brain for analysis. ALL your senses. My theory about deeper intuition and psychic ability (and it's not a popular one), is that we propel ourselves back to a primitive time before these sensory abilities had atrophied from lack of use, and lack of respect in our supposedly rational modern world. Either in our primitive brain or our more active one--which is involved is irrelevant, the ability atrophied. Part of that ability is sensing, sensing, always sensing. The first way we sense is usually through sight, but after that it's all touch and smell and feeling, taste, and deeper, deeper into something we've lost awareness of. You've got to touch it baby for the executable program to start!! [p.s to ciro: with respect, it's not a matter of discomfort, but i feel a computer narrows the experience. many of us here are quite adept at computing and delight in the experience and constantly download bits and pieces and continually try new programs or write our own. but, for reasons i stated in this post and my first one, i feel it limiting and wouldn't use a tarot cd. randomness is a continual action in my life that isn't dependent on a computer, and the same goes with my dimensional approach to tarot. your marvelous deck of course will always get lots of use by people, you're a very fine artist. ]

ambermoon	25 Aug 2004
I could see the digital version as a study aid. When I'm sitting on the train, it would be ideal to explore the cards this way on my laptop. I do occasionally take out one of my decks on the train, but I'm a klutz and worry about dropping and losing some of the cards. I've thought of scanning my decks, for personal use only, and putting a simple interface in front of them so that I could select and study them easily, or compare cards across several decks (I know there are programs out there, but nothing recent for Mac that I am aware of). So, I may be in a minority here in that I would appreciate a digital version in addition to the real deck, and would use it for some specific reasons. But will it work on a Mac? This could be a moot point.

cirom	25 Aug 2004
Quote: [i] [p.s to ciro: with respect, it's not a matter of discomfort, but i feel a computer narrows the experience. many of us here are quite adept at computing and delight in the experience and constantly download bits and pieces and continually try new programs or write our own. but, for reasons i stated in this post and my first one, i feel it limiting and wouldn't use a tarot cd. randomness is a continual action in my life that isn't dependent on a computer, and the same goes with my dimensional approach to tarot. your marvelous deck of course will always get lots of use by people, you're a very fine artist. ] [/b] My apologies if my comments came across as suggesting that you and others were deficient in the use of computers, and I certainly respect your choice to not use a tarot CD. My intention was to merely clarify that the Tarot of Dreams isnt one. Also I can quite appreciate that the were it so, then the medium might detract from a traditional " tangeable" tarot experience for some. If that is the case then hopefully the core deck will still serve those needs, and the CD content merely provide the various extras for those who do want it. As for this project being compatable with Macintosh...absolutely.

Alta	25 Aug 2004
Thanks for posting the clarification Ciro. It makes more sense to see the CD as an adjunct to another of your insightful decks.

le pendu	25 Aug 2004
Hi Cirom, I notice that you used shockwave to animate the online card.. so I suspect you might be considering Director? (I worked creating educational CD-ROMs over 10 years ago using Director before we switched to online using Flash, I used to write lingo). Why not just have the additional content on your website? I'm not sure of the benefit of using a CD-ROM for anything that I have heard you mention so far. Am I missing some understanding of the functionality? Are you trying to limit access to the content by forcing someone to have the physical CD? If not, perhaps it would HELP sell the deck if the animated content were available online, people might become more interested in the physical deck? Why the CD? robert

cirom	25 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by le pendu Hi Cirom, Why not just have the additional content on your website? I'm not sure of the benefit of using a CD-ROM for anything that I have heard you mention so far. Am I missing some understanding of the functionality? Are you trying to limit access to the content by forcing someone to have the physical CD? If not, perhaps it would HELP sell the deck if the animated content were available online, people might become more interested in the physical deck? Why the CD? robert Robert, valid questions. Essentially its an issue of volume, the files will be very large, The intro will be a movie sequence, plus the soundtrack, narrative etc. In addition to the cards there are other goodies such as screen savers, desktop wallpapers etc. As such I don't want to get involved with the issues of download time (not everyone has fast access, especially outside of the US). Compatability with browsers, plug ins etc etc, people are having enough problems just viewing the sample. And obviously its a financial issue as well, I can't simply provide all this for free, so I would then have to introduce password restrictions. All in all I think the CD is more practical. Having said that I am planning to add features to my web siet that will intergrate with content on the CD, as a kind of value added bonus.

Niomi	25 Aug 2004
Quote: Please understand that I'm not talking about Ciro or his beautiful new deck specifically. I'm just wondering about tarot and computers in general, and using his new project as an example. There have been some posts defending the Tarot of Dreams. I understand that it is mainly a physical deck, and that it's main thing isn't the computer at all. I was just wondering how people felt about tarot software, for example, Tarot of Dreams. ToD was just an example, please don't think that I misunderstood the project or that I am against it. This topic really wasn't supposed to discuss the ToD deck. I wanted to know, specifically, do you think that more things will be made for computers and tarot, and if so, will it change the way tarot is perceived or read?

purple_scorp	26 Aug 2004
Well I work in IT and read cards too. For me, Tarot of Dreams sounds like the ideal marriage. I have posted elsewhere on the board that at one stage, I downloaded a variety of Tarot software programs, with the idea of writing a review. Well owing to other priorities, the review has been temporarily put on the back burner but I evaluated quite a few programs (some free, some demo versions). The most flexible programs were the ones that allowed you to hand-select your cards from a face-up pack. This meant that if you had the accompanying physical deck, you could still handle it manually (shuffle, select cards) and then reproduce the same spread/cards on screen. The best of these programs also allowed you to enter an interpretation for each card, and then, add an overall reading interpretation. This information could be readily printed, or saved to a database to be retrieved at any point in time. Also, the ability to add your own spreads is vital. Imagine how brilliant this would be if you were offering a Reading in the Exchange section of AT. You would be able to record readings that you had done for yourself, as well as for others. Databases have enormous functionality and unfortunately, very few Tarot software programs take advantage of this. For example, imagine if at the touch of a button, you could produce statistics on the number of times that a card had been repeated in your spread or for a particular position. Then there is the mathematics side of the card numbers that are selected. I would much rather have the computer calculate that than my mathematically challenged brain. And how would it be, if the software allowed you to cut and paste the sitter's feedback in. You would have your own little online diary. I think if the software is written flexibly as an accompaniment it can provide an invaluable tool for learning and practising Tarot. purple_scorp

Lee	26 Aug 2004
Regarding doing readings with tarot programs, I have to say that I had a good experience with the Orphalese software. When I was doing professional e-mail readings for the Aeclectic site, when I first began, I would lay out cards from a physical deck next to my monitor, and type in the reading into a Word document, which I would copy and paste into an e-mail. However, I soon found that this wasn't ergonomically ideal, because I had to keep twisting back and forth to face the cards and then the screen. So then I began experimenting with the Orphalese program, and this really worked well for me. Orphalese has a "Reading Notes" feature where you can type in text in a window while keeping the cards on the screen at the same time. This way, I could do the whole reading sitting in one position and facing forward, rather than twisting around back and forth. Then when I was done, I could copy and paste the text into an e-mail the same way I did before. Orphalese lets you save the reading as a text file. You can also save a screen image of the layout. Another Orphalese feature is something called "Card Notes," which puts up a little box where you can type in text. These little boxes are card-specific. So if you have a layout of cards, you can click on a card and the little box will bring up that card's meanings. You can type in your own meanings or someone else's. If you're a deck creator, you can type in your own meanings and distribute that file with the deck images (Leila Vey has done this with her Tarot of Timeless Truth; when you buy the Orphalese set of her deck images, it comes with the Card Notes file with meanings taken from her book). This can be a good learning tool, because you can look at the card image first, and then if you want to remind yourself of the meanings (your own or someone else's), then you can bring up the Card Notes box. I think, if I understand correctly, Orphalese actually has many of the features which purple_scorp mentions, such as being able to save readings. However, Orphalese doesn't allow you to add spreads, although I think you can submit spreads through their online forum which is accessed through the Orphalese program itself. All of that said, I also have to say that for examining card images, nothing beats looking at the physical card. For some reason, when I look at scans on my screen, no matter how carefully I look, there will always be more things which I notice when I hold the card in my hand. It's not just the resolution. Maybe there's something about a computer monitor which flattens things and makes it harder for the eye to notice background details. I found this to be the case with the Gay Tarot, I spent months looking at the scans which I was sent, and thought I knew the images fairly well, but when I finally received the printed deck, it was like a whole new deck, there were so many little details I hadn't noticed on the scans. When I went back to the scans, I could see what I had missed before, but those details just don't jump at you the way they do when they're on a physical card. The Tarot of Dreams will be different -- instead of being merely a substitute for looking at a real card, the capabilities of computers will be used to provide things which a printed card can't. The image will be large; the animation will provide an enhancement to meditation or just setting a tone or mood; and some symbols on the cards will display randomly, so that you'll never be quite sure which version of the card you'll end up with. Besides study and meditation uses, this also can serve a divinatory purpose. For instance, if you choose a card for the day, you might choose it from the physical deck. Then, at that time or later in the day, you could bring up that card on the computer and see which particular symbols appear on that occasion, and you could use that to deepen whatever insights you've already drawn from the card. I think it will be exciting to explore different ways this sort of thing might be useful. But certainly some people will rather simply deal with the printed deck -- it's just a matter of providing more options for people who would be interested. -- Lee

WolfSpirit	26 Aug 2004
I think I would like to try the meditation on the computer with the Tarot of Dreams. At the moment, that would be the biggest bonus for me as far as I can see. I would not do readings on the computer if I also have the physical deck. I see enormous possibilities for journalling though. purple_scorp already mentioned keeping a database. That made me think of a thread in the Tarot Books forum on a book with card combinations. In a book you can only record a limited number of combinations. I think in the computer it should be possible to keep track of card combinations you get. Although I would not know at the moment how to set something like that up LOL but for someone who can set up databases I think it would not be too complicated.

purple_scorp	26 Aug 2004
Hi Lee, Okay, most of my testing was done late last year so I'm a bit sketchy with some details. Your description of how you use Orphalese was exactly what I was trying to highlight. Orphalese was one program that I downloaded. I found it to be extremely flexible. It was also excellent value for money. The beauty of Orphalese was that you could just deal (or select) cards and place them anywhere you liked on the screen. So in a fashion, it did let you create your own spreads. Though it had no way of writing that spread back to the database. WolfSpirit, database programming is very easy. In fact, if the information is already stored in the database, it is just a matter of creating the necessary reports or queries to retrieve whatever information you desire. Surprisingly, none of the software programs provided this functionality. No one program did everything that I would want it to. There was one program that came very close, but it was really pricy. I was thinking about writing to that company to suggest some enhancements that they might like to incorporate in a future version. purple_scorp

Lee	27 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by purple_scorp No one program did everything that I would want it to. There was one program that came very close, but it was really pricy. I was thinking about writing to that company to suggest some enhancements that they might like to incorporate in a future version. Purple_scorp, what was that program, if I might ask? Thanks -- Lee

Aun	27 Aug 2004
I can speak from the experiences I had with the Software ORPHALESE (shareware by the way). Although I was innitially skeptic about it, I came to find that the readings were EXTREMELLY ACCURATE according to the feedbacks I got. All of them.

blackroseivy	27 Aug 2004
I think that this is an interesting - also inevitable! - development, & I can see using the CDR as an extra, not the main focus - also, more of a game than serious reading material. But I would love to try it just out of curiosity.

Lee	31 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by le pendu Why not just have the additional content on your website? I'm not sure of the benefit of using a CD-ROM for anything that I have heard you mention so far. Am I missing some understanding of the functionality? I just wanted to mention that besides the card images and animations and interactive features, the CD will also contain text, the equivalent of a full-length book, written by myself, which is going to take me perhaps hundreds of hours to write, which, like Ciro, I simply cannot afford to do without some compensation. -- Lee

Tarot Sparrow	31 Aug 2004
Technology is great, but nothing can replace my cards.

full deck	31 Aug 2004
Everything Cirom and Lee have said about using a CD with the deck is for exactly the same purposes and reasons I'd mentioned in one thread as to what Scarabeo (Riccardo) could/should do for their decks. Cirom's deck will probably set a new standard (IMHO) just because of this. Flash or Director is just great for it too. I will do the very same thing eventually. Even if some people absolutely hate computers, they can always wear the CD around their neck, on a chain, thus making one super, funky tarot necklace that one could hypnotize people with. :-) I would be nice to have something that did run on a PDA but I believe that is hardware issue.

Ace	31 Aug 2004
Quote: Originally posted by maria42airam Now, I'm a newbie to Tarot. I've read on the 'net where people say they don't even need the cards anymore. They can listen to the question and pictures of the cards appear in their mind. So maybe there are other ways... Well, I wouldn't say I don't need cards at all any more, but I have had exactly that experience. A friend taught me to imagine a ceck, and pull a mental card and interpret it, and so I was a party and a friend asked and I didn't have a deck with me, so I did a mental card pull and it MOVED. I told her what happened and she freaked out! So I did it for her friend and again it MOVED and she too was astonished. Although I was rather puzzled by my reading ( IN this one, I "pulled" the Fool and he pirouetted on the edge of the cliff): I felt it didn't match the person I was trying to read (who I later found out was a person I knew) But she still insists it was right on! As for moving cards, why not wait until you see the deck to decide if you would like it? Someone recently posted (I can't remember the thread) with the URL's for two sites with moving cards (not an oracle, just the cards displayed and slightly animated-rather crudely). If it works for you, you buy it and use it. If it doesn't well, it isn't for you. I don't find computers and e-books very cuddly, but on-line tarot sites can be VERY Accurate! I sometimes download the reading and study it later.

The Tarot and Technology? thread was originally posted on 25 Aug 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.