Dark Tarot

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 25 Sep 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

blackroseivy	25 Sep 2004
I am curious as to how they differ from the "lighter" Tarots; such as the Gothic (of course!), the Guardian, the soon-to-be-mine Baphomet - some people say they can read these for any question. Others, like myself, find that they're best suited to certain subjects, or a certain approach. Just wondering what you-all think of the subject? I find my Visconti-Sforza & Cary-Yale to be a bit dark becuase they are so solemn with age; what other decks are there out there that are dark? & how do you read them?

Mesara	25 Sep 2004
My Magickal tarot was pure unadulterated evil, and I do not read with it anymore because it began to scare the crap out of me. In fact, it almost ruined tarot cards for me forever. It was, however, extremely accurate, and Ive never had a deck work for me quite as well as that one. I even miss it sometimes; but I will never go back to it. My Russian Tarot of St. Petersburg also seems to have dark tendencies, but it doesn't seem cruel like the Magickal. It just doesn't sugarcoat anything, and it will tell you straight up how it is. That is why I make sure I really want to know the answer before I ask it anything. Like yesterday it told me that my current path would bring me misery, unhappiness in love, but I would have lots of financial security! Come to think of it I don't think I have any "light" decks. I could really use one though, if anyone has any reccommendaitons.

Sulis	26 Sep 2004
Quote: My Magickal tarot was pure unadulterated evil, What did it do? Love Sulis xx

Alta	26 Sep 2004
I have the Magickal, was just using it last night. I must say it is the deck I keep in reserve when things are really confusing me (and something has been really confusing me). Talk about cuttng to the chase!! Evil though? Why would you say that? Just curious. Bad experience, I am thinking??

Eco74	26 Sep 2004
Mesara, Try looking through the decks on the Aeclectic site. If one seems to giggle and wink at you, or just makes you all fuzzy and warm, that might be a good deck to go for. And I second that question Sulis posted. What did it do? :(

Alta	26 Sep 2004
Mesara, light decks eh? eco74 has a good point, a deck that makes you feel good just to look at the pictures. Better yet one that tickles your funny bone. Hard to make a specific recommendation because decks affect folks so differently.

darwinia	26 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Mesara My Magickal tarot was pure unadulterated evil, and I do not read with it anymore because it began to scare the crap out of me. I love that deck. My regret is that it is OOP so I can't buy it. Gorgeous titling and lettering on that deck. Very interesting and original in design!

blackroseivy	26 Sep 2004
I'm sure that's *not* the same as the Magic Tarot, the Russian one by Kluev - still, that seems to have a dark tendancy too. I'll have to check out the Magickal, though. I was wondering if anyone had experience with a deck like the Vargo. Yeah, I'm wondering what the heck can be "evil" in a deck - sounds awfully "Born-Again", doesn't it? Not to accuse you of anything, Mesara! :D A really good "light" deck, despite its black ground-coloring, is the Tarot Nova! - my own recommendation!

blackroseivy	26 Sep 2004
- is that the Golden Dawn Magickal Tarot? Is that the same thing as the Tarot of Ceremonial Magick? Wondering...

Alta	26 Sep 2004
The Magickal Tarot Designer(s), Artist(s): Anthony Clark, Tony Willis Country of Publication: England Number of Cards: 78 Publication Year: 1992 Publication Status: Out-of-Print Reference: Encyclopedia of Tarot, vol. III, pp. 595, 603-604 When I bought mine, it wasn't oop, and that was less than a year ago, so I am guessing there are lots of copies still in stores. Tarot of Ceremonial Magick Designer(s), Artist(s): Lon Milo DuQuette Country of Publication: U.S.A. Number of Cards: 78 Publication Year: Publication Status: In Print Reference: Manteia, issue #15, p. 4 Price: $18 Seems to be a different deck. Golden Dawn Magical Tarot Designer(s), Artist(s): Sandra Tabatha Cicero, Chic Cicero Country of Publication: U.S.A. Number of Cards: 79 Publication Year: 1991 Publication Status: In Print And yet another deck, all with similar names. :( The one I meant, and I think what Mesara meant, would be the first one.

Mesara	26 Sep 2004
It is the Magickal Tarot by Tony Willis, based on Crowley's book of Thoth. It say it is evil because it was deliberately cruel. It seemed to delight in hurting my feelings, showing me things in my future that were horrible and heartbreaking; NEVER anything positive. Instead of showing me ways to work towards something or alternatives, etc, it just illumintated the dark side of EVERYTHING in my life or that would become my life. Everyone might be thinking that my life was dark at that time and the tarot was just telling me so, but that is not the case. When I was using those cards my life was bright, uncomplicated- I had so many things to look forward to and that deck just crushed me spiritually. I did mention in my earlier post that it was, however, accurate- and I still hold to that. All those dark "predictions" did come to pass years later; I am still suffering the effects of many of them. I just can't help but wonder if I could have done something to change these things if I had been working with a nicer deck that was a little more sympathetic. That is why I like my Russian St Petersburg deck. It is somewhat dark, and honest, but it seems to enjoy giving me a consolation prize at the end of every reading; like I said in my earlier post. It told me I would be unhappy in love, I would hurt someone I care immensely about, but I would at least be financially secure!! At least this deck tries to bring some positive current into my otherwise dire and dark readings.

Alta	26 Sep 2004
Hum, now that is quite an experience. Tarot is supposed to give you options, alternatives, and that is exactly what this deck did not do. It warned you of impending problems without being helpful. I would agree you were right to abandon it.

Moongold	26 Sep 2004
Greetings Mesara May I ask a question? I am curious because you seem to be attributing power to the deck itself. I have always seen the cards as evoking responses that are inherent in us personally. Perhaps you are saying that the artwork evoked fear and darkness in you, and little else? Please note, I know we all carry fear and darkness, so this comment is not a reflection on anyone. Perhaps the images can awaken fear which can then become a predominent influence in our lives? This is of interest because I often hear people attributing power to the cards themselves as if they are energetic in their own right and have always wondered about this. I used to feel a little ill at ease with Thoth but now really like this deck. I needed to understand the Tarot a lot more before I could use Thoth, however. I hope this comment is not distressing. Some decks make me feel dizzy - the Phantasmagorical is one such. Moongold

Mesara	26 Sep 2004
That is a good question Moongold. I'll admit the images do frighten me somewhat on that deck; though I couldn't tell you why exactly. I think you brought up an interesting thought about tarot cards- like they bring out what is already inherent in ourselves. I think that is true ; but I also believe (and this is just my opinion!) that the cards do hold some energy of their own, almost an entity of themselves. How that entity chooses to "mingle" with our own energy is what I think defines that deck's personality. I had mentioned in a different thread (can't remember which) about how decks will try to appeal to different parts of our psyche. Some will try to appeal to our aesthetic sense that loves beautiful artwork, some will attach themselves to our unconcious and bring forth extraordinary visions that we never knew we had within us. My Magickal Tarot seemed to just feed off the darker parts of my psyche; almost like a vampire I guess. It thrived off fears and misery, both of which I never thought I had until this deck revealed them to me! It planted the seed so it could reap the crop so to speak. It's wierd though- I am still attached to this deck. I could never part with it even though I do not use it any longer. I will always in a sense consider it to be a friend, because it was my first deck and I learned a lot about tarot from it.

blackroseivy	26 Sep 2004
Yes, Moongold is on the right track, I think; swear ta god, peoples, DECKS DO *NOT* HAVE BRAINS!!! :D It sounds like the kind of story you hear on eBay who are selling "haunted" things. Trust me, *this* would sell! Well, I'm going to share my experience with the Giger-Baphomet just as soon as I have it... May they be more pleasant than yours, Mesara!!

Mesara	26 Sep 2004
Now you have made me feel silly, Dahnubhe!! When you put it like that:"Tarot cards don't have BRAINS!" I feel very silly indeed. Of course they don't have brains, but they have something! You are like that no-nonsense aunt everyone has that while putting the kiddies to bed in her creepy guest room insists on turning the lights off! "There are no monsters in here!" she insists even while the poor kids see the clawed fingers reaching under the closet door. I don't mean that as an isult! I love people like you- keep flaky people like myself relatively grounded and in check! It is a comfort! I still believe those tarot cards were evil though!

blackroseivy	27 Sep 2004
Oh, I don't mean to be insulting! But they are *cardboard*, cardboard & ink, y'know? I think that we are more capable of amazing projections than we could ever imagine - they *do* sorta take on a "majickal" life of their own: they're called "thought-forms". You project these into the decks; it *does* give them a "life" of a sort, but trust me, it wasn't ever there when manufactured & sold - not until you put your energy into it by using it.

RedMaple	27 Sep 2004
While I agree with Danubhe that the decks are just cards, the images were created by someone, and they do have power to influence us. Art is very powerful, archetypal images touch something deep in us. When I think of some of the decks people often refer to as "dark" such as the Thoth, I have to think about who created them. Crowley's deck is profound, and he was apparently quite briilliant, but is it something I want to affect my spiritual development? Given that Crowley was so troubled, and died a drug addict, I am less inclined to use his deck than I might otherwise be. My grandmother used to say that "being smart and being good ain't the same thing." I don't think I really believed her then, being convinced of both my own intelligence and goodness :) The mean deck, the deck that gives you no guidance - it's images were created by somebody. If it speaks only to the destructive part of yourself, I suggest it is a deck to get rid of. To quote another friend when responding to unkind remarks - "They can give me a glass of poison, but they can't make me drink." I would say that applies particularly well to Tarot decks:)

blackroseivy	27 Sep 2004
Yes, I see exactly what you mean. On that note, I reiterate: somebody puts energy into the cards. That energy can be good, or it can be harmful. A lot goes into the creation of a deck: as I know, as an artist myself with aspirations in this direction. People say a lot about them once they are finished, but what goes on meantime? The drug-addict's worst nightmares, realized as card images that you eventually look to for guidance? Take a look at the thread on the Guardian Tarot in the Decks section, & you'll see what I mean. Exactly who or what is in control of *those* images, I *don't* know - but don't think for a moment that they don't have an appeal of their own. Some, like me, like to explore that dark side & give it expression in a totally harmless way; whether or not the Tarot is harmless is largely up to the Tarot user.

mehndigirl	27 Sep 2004
I believe that the art evokes a certain energy, or "wave length" of THE ENERGY that is a little different in each one of us. A deck who's immages give you the willies will probably affect your readings with that deck. Hand the same deck to someone else, and it may strike a different chord and a totally different type of reading.

RedMaple	27 Sep 2004
Quote: Originally posted by danubhe Yes, I see exactly what you mean. On that note, I reiterate: somebody puts energy into the cards. That energy can be good, or it can be harmful. A lot goes into the creation of a deck: as I know, as an artist myself with aspirations in this direction. People say a lot about them once they are finished, but what goes on meantime? The drug-addict's worst nightmares, realized as card images that you eventually look to for guidance? Take a look at the thread on the Guardian Tarot in the Decks section, & you'll see what I mean. Exactly who or what is in control of *those* images, I *don't* know - but don't think for a moment that they don't have an appeal of their own. Some, like me, like to explore that dark side & give it expression in a totally harmless way; whether or not the Tarot is harmless is largely up to the Tarot user. I read the thread on the Guardian Tarot,(thanks), and I think it is important to acknowledge that we all need to look at the dark side of our natures, and of life, and to grapple with that at one time or another. Otherwise there is no growth. If you look at stories in mythology, over and over again, there are stories of descents into Hell, Hades, the underworld. And then there is the return. The story is not complete without that. The Major Arcana itself tells that kind of story. An important point, though is whether the person doing the Tarot deck, (or other work of art) has successfully moved through the stages of the dark themselves. Or are they stuck somewhere in the Forest of Wrong Answers?;) RedMaple PS Sredni Vashtar! That was one of my favorite creepy stories once upon a time. Hadn't heard that name in ages.

Cerulean	27 Sep 2004
I came across the Magickal Tarot by Anthony Clark and there was a time I also had the illustrations from his I Ching deck. For me, the art was stylized and just---well, let me put it this way. I was reminded of kabuki masks and Japanese art posters, but they didn't feel like the folkloric art that I knew from original Asian artists. There was nothing wrong with Clark's art, they were not sinister, evil...actually I just didn't think the colors or forms were as attractive as my other Thothlike decks to me. His I-Ching deck didn't work for me either, it was just my taste...look below http://www.spiritone.com/~filipas/Masquerade/Reviews/iching.html What bugged me in the style was fresh and beautiful to the reviewer above. Just a matter of taste. On my most irritated days, I just said to the decks, "Well, I'm not the silly twirp, YOU are the twirp to me!" It ALMOST looked the like Asian art styles I liked, good color, clean lines-- but there was just enough "quirkiness" that I felt it wasn't to my taste. After awhile, I just realized I like a different style of illustration. The LS Gothic or Secrets had dark art, the Vargo did as well...but I just preferred the way I enjoyed the art and storylines I saw in the LS Gothic and Secrets to the Vargo and Magickal... Best wishes, Cerulean

Cerulean	28 Sep 2004
http://www.lelandra.com/comptarot/tarotthothclone.htm If you take the Knight of Pentacles examples, for instance, I like best the Crowley Thoth, the Via Tarot (gorgeous courts) and of the next choices, the Rider Waite, Liber_T look the next best to me. The Magickal and others in comparison just don't appeal to me in design, even if they might have rich descriptions in their book or deck booklets. The Magickal is the ninth deck down. In comparison, the picture of the 'woman' might seem like a satirical take rather than a helpful picture that offers food for thought... Some of these others might be 'darker' designs, depending on your definition. I find the Thoth-based designs to have richness when I like them. For instance, I find the Crowley Thoth Knight of Pentacles rather a good design. The deer antlers and the heavy warhorse also make sense to me in terms of cultural images--for instance, Japanese traditional warrior costumes had a similarity in look. The Knight of Pentacles is opening his armor to look at the land suggests to me someone who is considering cultivation of the fruits of the earth...and he faces light on one side. The horse facing us and its gleaming eye amid cropping the grass is a good way to draw in the viewer...I think Frieda Harris was a good illustrator....sorry for going on and on, I'm designing a Knight of Pentacles card this week... To me the Thoth decks are moodier, have a richer illustration that can be delved into and be made thoughtful by good books. Even modern derivative decks with similar Thoth-like meanings and courts to me (Ananda, Via) have a somber but beautiful depth that I like... Hope this helpful...and perhaps illuminates a little about preferences or dislikes in terms of illustrations and previous ideas about the Magickal Tarot... Regards, Cerulean

Alta	28 Sep 2004
Yes, I have this deck and it is far from giving me problems. I think it is the *interaction* of the personal energies, the reader's and the artist's. That being said, I still think she was very correct to set it aside. Edited to add: for some reason I thought the page before was the last page. Just read the posts above. Very interesting comments and comparisons. The Magickal is indeed a very spare deck in design and I do not use it often. There are a number of symbols on the cards which I don't understand. This doesn't make me uneasy so much as wondering if i am missing a chunk of the message.

blackroseivy	28 Sep 2004
I'm just wondering, Cerulean: which is the "LS" Gothic? I know it's not the Vargo - I don't know it, just curious.

Cerulean	28 Sep 2004
Lo Scarabeo "Gothic Tarot of the Vampires." Now to be honest, if one has some affinity to modern or period graphic novels or line illustrations, the intermix of pen and ink and watercolor-like washes could feel silly, good, or ho-hum. Just because these decks such as Secrets or LS Gothic have storytelling bents for me--I'm not certain they evoke the same response to others. Regards, Cerulean

blackroseivy	28 Sep 2004
*Right*, the Tarot of the Vampires! I wonder what kind of readings people are doing out there with these decks...

Cerulean	28 Sep 2004
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19751&highlight=vampire+tarot http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/gothic-vampires/review.shtml Regards, Cerulean

Emily	07 Oct 2004
I think the Liber T Tarot of Stars Eternal really does classify as a dark deck. I've tried hard with these cards but still see them as very negative. The Majors don't seem as dark but then again they resemble the Thoth closely and the Thoth isn't a dark deck. I can't really think of any questions or spreads that I would be able to use this deck with - All I get is the negative aspect of the cards coming through. Its a shame this deck should have focused on the positive as well as the negative then it would have been a rival, or maybe an equal, for the Thoth - as it stands it doesn't even come close.

Eco74	07 Oct 2004
I believe a lot of the light or dark is coming from our responses to the artwork and style of the cards.. When I look at images that make me smile, the cards are likely to tell me things in a brighter light and with a comforting twist even when things look bad. While when I look at images that make me afraid or uncomfortable I will be more prone to see the negative aspects of the answer even when asking about something as mundane as "what area of my house should I focus on first for the move". Somewhere, on some level, we need to find a mutual path of communication with the decks we hold. Some decks travel the shadowy passages more easily than the sunny ones, and we probably need to find the channel that works best for us and the deck that uses that channel for things to really fall into place. I know all of my decks have different dialects and styles. One that is downright rude and 'snippety' and constantly tells me "I have NO time for that, DO move along" when I give it a lookthrough. I've yet to attempt a reading with it because of this.. Though this is hardly evil, just ... rude...

Emily	07 Oct 2004
Hi Eco, I think you've just helped me with this deck - I had such high hopes of using these cards then as soon as I had the deck in my hands I realised that the artwork does make me feel uncomfortable. I can't read with this deck because I get lost in the artwork and only see it as negative. I think maybe I should get it out again and see what keeps me from trading it on.

blackroseivy	07 Oct 2004
Which deck, Eco, is the "rude" one?? :D (P.S. Due to Crowley's involvement, I can't help seeing the Thoth as shadowy, if not downright dark...)

Umbrae	07 Oct 2004
“Hello Darkness my old friend…I’ve come to talk with you again…” Step into my office… I’ve often said, that one should not confuse the deck with the reading. But I’d like to expand on that thought. For me, readings go in cycles. Sometimes I go through a period where all the readings seem to be zippy-dippy slappy-happy fuzzy-bunny sun coming up and it ain’t gonna rain. Regardless of the deck. Then I go through a cycle where it’s “Little bunny Foo-Foo…scoopin’ up the field mice and bashin’ em on the head”. Is it me? Is it the deck? Or is it that at that moment in time, those sitters need to hear what the deck of the day is telling them? Reflecting their lives in the reading…the message of the tarot… I am unable to place ‘blame’ on the deck. If you find yourself in a cycle like this, switch decks… This is another call for journaling. This way you can go back and see the cycles of your sitters. Who is sitting for you and when (in their life cycles). Remember how I urge to get birthdates so you can figure out their life cycle? All this stuff fits! Journal folks…journal! Along with “why do you read tarot”, I also ask “Why do they come to you”…big stuff here… And it’s not the deck that’s dark. Lives become dark. It’s our job to shine a light. “Ohhhh did you see this over here?”

Eco74	07 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by danubhe Which deck, Eco, is the "rude" one?? :D That would be my Antonella Castelli 'Tarot Art Nouveau'. Beautiful artwork and I just adore the deathcard in this deck. Luckily, out of all the rude cards in there, she seems to be one of the very very scarce approachable characters in the deck so atleast that bit seems to work out. *s* However rude they are though, I can't take it personally. They'd do the same to anyone it seems.. Unless one speaks with the right tone of voice to them. Whichever that may be. *scratches head trying to figure out what channels I've not tried with yet* Edited for spelling... *sigh*

Alta	07 Oct 2004
I liked your comments umbrae. These are questions I also ask myself, and why I like having different decks available. I also find myself saying "oh groan, not another downer reading where i can't give the querent much but a direction for hope", followed by a series of 'happy ending' readings. Dunno, is it me, is it them? I also agree that a dark deck can give a fuzzy bunny reading and a light deck can hit you between the eyes. I think my VR deck is sarcastic. So, lots of people 'personalize' their decks. :)

Cerulean	07 Oct 2004
If one has the typical forty-dollar U.S. Games version, the dullness of the later reproductions make the cards seem dim with age. I could see someone feeling dimmed or darkened with that reproduction. The brighter, sometimes less expensive (depending on shipping, etc.) Dal Negro version of the deck shows a reproduction that has a soft gloss and maybe even a softer, lighting fading. Here's a link: http://www.gambler.ru/sukhty/decks05/d02046/d02046.htm I have two versions of the 1975 earlier edition U.S. Games (when they were still in New York) and Bergomo Italian printing...one from a German source that unfortunately was too much compared to an abebooks find some weeks later. It's exactly the same cards as the Visconti Dal Negro purchased via online---the LWB was the only difference. The Dal Negro version has an Italian booklet--but you can also purchase a Visconti Gold book from Lo Scarabeo that has descriptions of the cards in a way suitable for readings...or use the smaller and nice reprint of the Visconti Gold deck in the book-deck set that might be nicer for readings. Just fyi if it would brighten someone's readings...the better and brighter reproductions were appealing to me overall. Regards, Cerulean

The Dark Tarot thread was originally posted on 25 Sep 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.