Accreditation/Endorsement/Certification of Readers

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 14 Oct 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

jmd	14 Oct 2004
Arising partly out of reflections and considerations in the UK article link thread, I thought it may be useful to ascertain current views of Aeclectic's contributing membership. Part of the beauty of a poll is its maintained anonymity - but of course a progressed discussion may also reveal some of the underlying reasons for particular views. I have time-limited the poll to automatically lock after 90 days (3 months).

shelikes2read	14 Oct 2004
Though I've been reading cards for years, it's only recently that I decided to seek out Tarot-related knowledge and discussion forums online. Early on, I saw links to a few different Tarot-certification bodies appearing in my search engine results, so I clicked on them. However, I have yet to actually apply for any of these things. First of all, I can't afford to go through the testing process for any of them right now. Excess money is, at the moment, a pleasant memory. Second of all, because I'd never done Tarot-related research online before, I truly had NO idea who any of these organizations were or what they stand for. Merely from viewing their sites online, there is no way to tell if they're legitimate Tarot-related organizations, or if they just have a pretty page set up so people can send them money and they can send back a test and, if you pass, a certification. I mean no offense to anyone here who does belong to any of the organizations whose sites I visited. And I CERTAINLY mean no offense to anyone who has gone through the testing process and become certified -- more power to you if you've set that goal and accomplished it. But it crossed my mind that, if I can be a reader since 1978 without ever having heard of any of these organizations, how much less will those names mean anything to people who are completely new to Tarot and are asking me for a reading? If al they want is a reading, they're not going to care whether I have a real certificate on my wall/on my website from an actual organization, a pretend one that I created myself from a non-existent organization (though that would be unethical and I wouldn't actually DO that), or no certification at all. So for now, I'm going with the "no certification at all", other than the certification I know that I have between my own ears -- my knowledge, my intuition, and my experience. At this time, that's the right direction for me to go. And I'll presume that everyone else, whether they're choosing to become certified or not, is going in the right direction for THEM at this time.

kwaw	14 Oct 2004
There are possibly good reasons for, but negative experiences with several so called 'certificated tarot readers' inclines me to the dismiss the whole concept as a joke. Kwaw

contrascarpe	14 Oct 2004
The way it stands now, no. I do not see any organization as qualified to tell me whether I am a good reader or not. Tarot is not a science like other disciplines. That being said, I did join the ATA and carry the certificate with me in my Tarot bag. It helps to advertise that I am a member of the ATA, but any well-educated seeker could look online and realize that all one has to do is send money for the honor. Dan

Sulis	14 Oct 2004
I agree with Contrascarpe - I don't see how a governing body can test whether someone is a good reader or not. I've thought about joining TABI in the past - I even signed up for their free course which is based on Joan Bunnings 'Learn Tarot' course. I didn't finish it - it just wasn't for me. It's a very good course but keywords are not the way I learn. I feel as though I read more intuitively than that - I also use numerology which I didn't think that the course covered. Does this mean that I'm not a good reader? I don't think so but I don't read the way this course wanted me to so I don't get to become an accredited reader at the end of it. Different people read the cards in different ways - it's not something that can be measured so I don't see how accreditation can work. Love Sulis xx Edited to add - another reason this course wasn't for me (so neither was their accreditation) was because you have to use the Celtic Cross spread in this course - I hardly ever use this spread, I just don't like it and cannot see why it's included in a beginners tarot course when it's clearly an advanced spread.

Centaur	14 Oct 2004
I voted no. Who would decide what the endorsed, accredited, and certified standard for reading is?

Imagemaker	14 Oct 2004
I vote no. I read intuitively, triggered by knowledge of "life, the universe and everything"--this is not measurable on a standardized scale. Neither is any reader's intent, which underlies the whole concern over marketing, malpractice and fraud. The paranormal is just that, beyond the normal. We have to develop new ways to deal with it.

Fulgour	14 Oct 2004
If someone you really liked was very proud of and happy about having reached a certain level of certification, would you want to simply blurt out a bunch of negativity, thus hurting their feelings? After all, they have achieved a goal, and deserve to be credited. Pros and cons may abound, but I think this is a personal choice. Fulgour Prentice UNCERTIFIED

MeeWah	14 Oct 2004
Voted "No". Neither accreditation nor certification of itself a measure of ability nor skill as knowledge of a subject need not relate to either. Similarly with those certified in the various professional fields, their degrees & etc. no indication of the quality of their expertise & experience which vary greatly according to the individual. The ability to read is not measureable except abstractly & best ascertained via the results produced. My reader credentials based on intuition & knowledge developed over years of experience & on the results since pre-teen & pre-Tarot. Although I tend to see a standard in Tarot as being somewhat of a gray area, this in no way maligns any who have achieved documentation or membership in an organization.

contrascarpe	14 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour If someone you really liked was very proud of and happy about having reached a certain level of certification, would you want to simply blurt out a bunch of negativity, thus hurting their feelings? After all, they have achieved a goal, and deserve to be credited. Pros and cons may abound, but I think this is a personal choice. Fulgour Prentice UNCERTIFIED I agree with the sentiment, Fulgour. However, in context with how the question was asked - should there be a "need" for certification, this changes the scope of the response. The way it stands now, there is no legal requirement to be certified. Certainly, if someone I liked came to me gushing about reaching that level of certification I would not blurt out any negative comments. However, if it were required by law to be certified, then this is moot. I would also have to go through the same certification process if I wanted to read. So, yes, as it stands right now it is a matter of personal choice. But the question was (if I understand jmd correctly), should this personal choice be taken away? Dan

Fulgour	14 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by contrascarpe96 I agree with the sentiment, Fulgour. However, in context with how the question was asked - should there be a "need" for certification, this changes the scope of the response. Thanks Dan, sure I knew that but was just saying how I saw the larger issue. This is just a hypothetical question, and I did read it carefully, but thought I'd simply add a little something from another point of view. 'sOk ~ eh?

contrascarpe	14 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Fulgour Thanks Dan, sure I knew that but was just saying how I saw the larger issue. This is just a hypothetical question, and I did read it carefully, but thought I'd simply add a little something from another point of view. 'sOk ~ eh? :) Of course 'sOK! In fact, I think your response is further justification as to why certification is not needed. I like the fact that it remains a personal choice. Dan

mercenary30	14 Oct 2004
The only way I could see this working is if were set up under broad guidelines, and applied evenly. Any kind of group that could administer such a thing should have to justify their accreditation and prove their worthiness to do so. I have no interest in certification from any existing groups out there, but I must say that if Aeclectic were to have such a progam or sponsor a professional organization, I would scramble to become a part of it.

April	14 Oct 2004
I've been going back and forth on this for awhile now. It seems like it might put querants more at ease to know that their reader studied and passed a test and didn't just buy their first deck yesterday. On the other hand, readers have been reading for years without certification and there seems to be no shortage of people to read for. Actually, now that I think of it, it's the querant's job to check up on the people they are giving money to. Also, to make certification a requirement you would need to have the government involved to enforce it. Who's going to take care of the people reading without the proper certificate hanging on the wall? If somebody sees a way around this please share. Okay, I think I've convinced myself to change my answer to no. But, alas, I have already cast my vote. That will teach not to go to the polls without weighing all of the facts. Peace, April

Majecot	14 Oct 2004
I don't know that Acreditation makes anyone more or less knowlegable, just more rigid in the conformity of their practices, regardless of the field. A certificate maybe all fine and dandy for someone that reads strictly by the book, but I do not think that is what it is about. It is about feeling, and reading your client as well as reading the cards. I do not read for money, so I cannot say that a certificate would make a client feel more comfortable or not. I really think it would be the experience, and ability that gives a client the confidence to come back. And as someone once said, we can print out a pretty certificate and hang it on the wall if it makes your feel more like a qualified reader. I am an intuitive reader, and I think I have learned more here at AT than any class that I could have gone to. I do not feel the need for one, but I am with merc... if AT did something like that I would jump on the band wagon with him...:)

ribbitcat	14 Oct 2004
Hi Sulis :-) Quote: Originally posted by Sulis I've thought about joining TABI in the past - I even signed up for their free course which is based on Joan Bunnings 'Learn Tarot' course. I didn't finish it - it just wasn't for me. It's a very good course but keywords are not the way I learn. I feel as though I read more intuitively than that - I also use numerology which I didn't think that the course covered. Does this mean that I'm not a good reader? I don't think so but I don't read the way this course wanted me to so I don't get to become an accredited reader at the end of it. Edited to add - another reason this course wasn't for me (so neither was their accreditation) was because you have to use the Celtic Cross spread in this course - I hardly ever use this spread, I just don't like it and cannot see why it's included in a beginners tarot course when it's clearly an advanced spread. Where'd you get the idea one had to do the TABI/Joan Bunning beginner course to become a TABI endorsed reader ? You don't . Also , the TABI free reading service uses 3 cards maximum , not a Celtic Cross . ribbitcat

Flavio	14 Oct 2004
I support the concept of reader certification for two main purposes: 1. To show the querents, their Tarot reader has reached a reliable level of knowledge and has agreed to follow a code of ethics, so querents have a reason to decide select a reader among of group of them. 2. To evaluate my own Tarot expertise level. Currently I've checked the requirements from different associations and decided to follow requirements for each levels as a studying plan for development as a reader, now I have a clear vision were should I lead my steps. Ironically... there are no certification authorities in Mexico :confused: so the only thing I can do is study by myself following my plan, live uncertified and become a reliable reader just because I have a responsibility as a reader and not in order to gain a certicate for my ability.

Shalott	14 Oct 2004
I voted for choice #3. I would have picked choice #1 but for one issue: I was still hovering at my radio station early one morning when the host of the show at our "sister" station was talking about a HORRIBLE experience he'd had that weekend with a Tarot reader. It was actually laughable and it was everything I could do to not run straight into the studio and tell him this was hardly the standard and I'll give you a reading right now. Maybe I should've, it would've been interesting radio, but the bottom line is that reader didn't sound like she had any business CHARGING and it kind of bothered me that there is absolutely nothing to stop her. I mean stuff like that gives ALL of us a bad name. (Maybe I should've marched in there and told the host what was up!) PS: I am talking about the 'concept" not what we currently have in place. I've looked itno as many of us have, and found it to be very little for a lot of money...but like mercenary30/Majecot were saying, if there were something through AT, it would seem much more worthwhile IMO.)

Moongold	14 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by contrascarpe96 However, if it were required by law to be certified, then this is moot. I would also have to go through the same certification process if I wanted to read. I think this is the key. IN Australia, I think Tarot reading would only be regulated by Goverrnment if it was perceived by the community to be harmful. There would be an enquiry before that happened I know there is some archaic legislation in place but it hasn't been used for ages and one has to wonder how seriously it wouldbe taken if it was used. In the absence of Government regulation I don't believe that certificateion is necessary. There are many professional bodies in the astrological field. Do astrologers have some wisdom to offer us here?

shelikes2read	14 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Shalott I voted for choice #3. I would have picked choice #1 but for one issue: I was still hovering at my radio station early one morning when the host of the show at our "sister" station was talking about a HORRIBLE experience he'd had that weekend with a Tarot reader. It was actually laughable and it was everything I could do to not run straight into the studio and tell him this was hardly the standard and I'll give you a reading right now. Maybe I should've, it would've been interesting radio, but the bottom line is that reader didn't sound like she had any business CHARGING and it kind of bothered me that there is absolutely nothing to stop her. I mean stuff like that gives ALL of us a bad name. (Maybe I should've marched in there and told the host what was up!) Why not email or snail-mail the host of the radio program and tell him the same thing? Maybe he'll have you do a reading for him, either on or off the air, and report on how THAT went. I'm sure that his experience with your reading would be TONS better than what happened to him over the weekend with the substandard reader he mentioned on the program. BTW, certification wouldn't prevent a reader like that one he was talking about from giving a bad experience to a client. Just look at the number of people who pass their driver's test, get their driver's license, and then go on the road and drive EXACTLY the opposite of the ways that allowed them to earn the license in the first place! Certification and skill aren't mutually inclusive OR mutually exclusive. A person could have a truckload of Tarot knowledge and pass every certification test there is -- but if they flunk the "tact" and the "consideration for other people's feelings" tests, aspects of Tarot reading for which there is no certification, they're going to give their clients a nervous breakdown due to the WAY they deliver their information. JMO and all that good stuff. :)

Shalott	14 Oct 2004
This was a LONG time ago now... his producer has since learned that I do read. But I just edited to say I'm not really supporting what we have in place now...it wouldn't stop a bad reader. I'm more interested in something that would reduce this kind of experience.

Sulis	14 Oct 2004
Hi ribbitcat, Quote: posted by Sulis I don't read the way this course wanted me to so I don't get to become an accredited reader at the end of it. I was under the impression that on completion of the course you become an accredited reader. Quote: [/i] posted by ribbitcat [/i] Also , the TABI free reading service uses 3 cards maximum , not a Celtic Cross . In my post I didn't mention the TABI free reading service, I was talking about the course which is based on the Celtic Cross spread. This was one of the reasons why the course wasn't for me. Love Sulis xx

Kath	14 Oct 2004
Do these accreditation course measure accuracy in tarot reading, or just that you can remember ‘standard’ meanings? What’s stopping me from reading a book, filling out a test paper, sending it back with a money order and becoming an accredited, endorsed or certified reader? Who decided what each card means anyway? If there is a question that reads ‘what cards can mean death?’, and I write ‘4 of wands’, the person marking that will think I’m a moron. Yet, in my experience, I pulled the 4 of wands for someone’s fiancé and two weeks later they died. I’ve read on these threads that some questions include ‘what is the oldest tarot deck’, and to list some astrological correspondences. How does my knowing the oldest tarot deck make me a better reader? Does the querent care? What if I’m not into astrology? Does that make me second rate? I think a reader’s accreditation should be based on their accuracy, not their memory of keywords. Send a prospective accredited reader half a dozen questions from querents, then assess their accuracy using the querents’ feedback. In theory, accreditation sounds good. But tarot reading is so diverse, each reader does it differently. But trying to shove every tarot reader into a rigid little box, and making things ‘right’ and other things ‘wrong’ (who decides??), I don’t think that’s possible. I don’t think accreditation will keep charlatans out of the tarot industry, but I think you will succeed in expelling very gifted readers.

April	15 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Kath What’s stopping me from reading a book, filling out a test paper, sending it back with a money order and becoming an accredited, endorsed or certified reader? I'm not positive, but I think nothing could stop you from doing that. From what I've seen it looks like most of them are after traditional meanings or at least meanings agreed to by their board of directors. What also bothers me are the different levels of certification some make available. Does that mean someone is a better reader than I am because they had $100 in there purse when I only had $50? Peace, April

ribbitcat	15 Oct 2004
Hi April , Kath , Sulis - There seems to be some mixing of tarot *courses* with accreditation as a reader ...not necessarily the same thing . The course Sulis refers to is a beginner's course based (with her permission) on Joan Bunning ; as Sulis says , it does follow what could be called a fairly regimented approach . The test that TABI offers at the end does nothing but test the person's knowledge of traditional RWS meanings , and is *based on that course*; it does *not* certify/accredit/whatever that person as a reader . It is also a *free* course . TABI does not offer different levels of accreditation/endorsement of readers - there is only one : Endorsed reader , available *free* to members of the organization (membership fees are approx. $12/13 p.a) Nowhere near the fees that the ATA , for example , or the BRBP charge . ribbit

RedMaple	15 Oct 2004
If we were to have accreditation, who would enforce it? I mean, do we really want to have laws on the books about Tarot practice? That is pretty scary to me.

Lee	16 Oct 2004
It seems to me that the reason we have accreditation and certification boards is because it's human nature that in any field of interest, there will be those whose personalities predispose them to form committees and groups and attempt to issue guidelines, rules and regulations for others. The only question is whether joining such groups and adhering to their pronouncements is actually in one's best interests, or is merely helping some group of people somewhere satisfy their egos. -- Lee

HOLMES	17 Oct 2004
for me, well i wanted to be ceritifed for the longest time for it meant to me i was good enough to professional and i looked at correspondance courses,but only half heartedly for i realize it didnt mean nothing really.. or does it,, i dont' know, if a client comes in,, would they be impressed enough to pay another 15 bucks ? so for certifications , i would be looking for an very very very very indepth course (that bota would of been it,, for it is 12 years,, i cant commit that long ) in order to prove to myself that i am ready. if a law comes down,, i would probaly love the tarot so much that i would go to ata, bota, james wanless voyager tarot,, whatever it takes,

Diana	18 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by ribbitcat The test that TABI offers at the end does nothing but test the person's knowledge of traditional RWS meanings , and is *based on that course*; So this would mean that someone like me who reads only with the Tarot of Marseilles, and who thinks that many of the RWS meanings are up the creek (and can even explain why I think so) would not get accredited? What a horrible thought! That RWS meanings are the only ones considered valid. That's like someone saying that only Western medicine is useful, and Chinese medicine, or Native American medicine is not valid. (Hmm... that's exactly why our medical world is full of donkeys with white coats). I think any Accreditation/Endorsement/Certification of Readers will just make Tarot readers become Certified Donkeys.

Moongold	18 Oct 2004
One of the things that became clear to me last night is that nobody has to be accredited. The whole discussion at this stage seems a little like a storm in a teacup. Or perhaps a really bitter Ace of Cups. :D. For whatever reason, some Tarot groups are promoting their own training and accreditation processes. In Australia anyway those processes would not be enough by any means if Governmental regulation was required. And that is SUCH a long way in the distance. Like XIV Temperance our beloved Tarot will always be balanced between the world of mysticism, art and philosophy and the never never world of the occult. I do doubt that Government regulation will ever be required. There may be some commercial advantage in having a certificate from the ATA or something like that but I doubt it really. People go to individuals usually by word of mouth recommendation.

HOLMES	18 Oct 2004
i think that in north america ,, most people would use the rws meanings with the marsilles due to there being a lack of marsielles materials for us to study (hint hint) butt more realistically i can see in france the marsilles would be the deck that would be the basis for accredition,, and in north america where the traditions are reversed it would be vice versa .

Diana	18 Oct 2004
Holmes: It still doesn't make sense to accredit anyone just because they use one kind of meanings, and not another. And what if they use their own personal meanings? Like my old gypsy Tarot reader I used to go to. I have never ever seen anyone apply meanings such as she did to the cards.... and I doubt I ever will, because they were meanings passed on to her by her mother, who got them from her mother.... etc. They're certainly not to be found in any book. But I have never met anyone who did such accurate readings as she did.

HOLMES	18 Oct 2004
i am not saying one way is better then the other, that just most likely would happen is the rsw or toth would be the basis for the accrediation given that it is the standard over here, and the marsielles would be the source of accrediationas it is the standard over there. in that case i am refering if the govenments of the world stepped in and forced an certifications system upon us. it would come to more then just tarot knowledge but also nationalism. we want a tarot system that reflects our nation. i can see it happen in my imagination. i am not saying that north america study north america, and europe study europe, as that would be discrimination eh . as for personal meanings, we all know that we will use them after we get out of the school, training, study, it is true in any field

ribbitcat	18 Oct 2004
Hi Diana :-) Quote: Originally posted by Diana So this would mean that someone like me who reads only with the Tarot of Marseilles, and who thinks that many of the RWS meanings are up the creek (and can even explain why I think so) would not get accredited? Someone like you who uses the Marseilles Tarot would be very unlikely to be interested in doing Joan Bunning's course as a) it is based on the RWS (take it up with her why she didn't use the Marseilles :-) (b) you are experienced - it *is* a beginner's course . There is no accreditation involved , only a certificate to say you have completed the course , there are no grades eg. pass , distinction , honors or whatever . Quote: I think any Accreditation/Endorsement/Certification of Readers will just make Tarot readers become Certified Donkeys. And those without will be Uncertified Donkeys . ribbitcat (Endorsed Donkey)

tmgrl2	18 Oct 2004
I was uncertain last February where I stood on this question. Now my answer is a strong NO. terri

Moongold	18 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by tmgrl2 I was uncertain last February where I stood on this question. Now my answer is a strong NO. terri I'm curious to know why you've moved, terri. Possibly you no longer see any need for it. I said no. There doesn't seem to be any meaningful system of accreditation at the moment and I seriously doubt that there ever will be. I think, for very practical reasons, the Tarot is a long way from Government interest in terms of regulation as well. Tarot is not used in health as complementary therapies are, for example. But I don't see harm in associations organizing courses and giving people certificates for them. I am planning to do another course myself on Thoth next year but that is simply for personal interest. It's a private course but I will get a certificate of completion at the end. It doesn't mean much - just personal satisfaction. I can't see anything to fear in "certificates". They are simply pieces of paper, so elementary that most would understand they are just a beginning.

tmgrl2	18 Oct 2004
I have changed my opinion based on what is currently "available" around the world in terms of "certification." There is such diversity in the meaning that this piece of "paper" holds. I am all for formal courses, however, as you are Moongold. I would love to be able to enroll in some offered by Rachel Pollack and Mary Greer, even though I am leaning toward the Tarot de Marseille tradition. I love learning, especially from people who have accrued years of experience in an area, and then offer that experience coupled with a solid background knowledge of their own studies in literature and travel and history. I just feel that at this point, for me, there would be no purpose in holding any certification. I am a beginner and at best, at this stage of my life, I hope to gain more experience as a reader and hope to continue my studies as well. I'm certainly not looking for any formal certification. Actually, my most prized piece of laminated paper is the one I just received from the Association for Tarot Studies, which holds and promotes ideas and beliefs pertaining to Tarot that are atuned to my own philosophies. I think it's wonderful that more people are looking to put together a series of courses that would help newcomers progress in an organized fashion in the learning of Tarot, but none of this can replace the real-life experience that is needed as well. In my own profession, I remember studying so hard in all the areas I had to cover. Then I went out and worked with real-life clients..adults and children and over the thirty years have gained so much from this. As a result I am often sought out as a mentor by graduate students and new clinicians. I love that role and feel it is part of what I should and wish to do at this stage of my life. I hope that answers your question, Moongold. My no doesn't mean that the quest for a more unified, universal and organized approach to the study of Tarot should not continue. I would love to be able to attend the 2005 conference in Australia! That would be a dream. Finally, I certainly agree there is nothing to fear from a holder of a certificate. It's the reading skills and the knowledge that speak more loudly than the official words on any paper....in any field, actually. In my own field, however, when someone earns a license and the Certificate of Clinical Competence from the American Speech and Hearing Association, I have a pretty good idea of what they have had to learn and achieve to get those qualifications. It is a national norm, requiring a particular degree, a year of supervised clinical experience, and the passing of a rather difficult national board exam. When I go into a hospital room and am the one who is instructing the medical staff on how to feed a trached and vented patient, I'm sure they all want to be sure I have more than practice and a love for what I do. In Tarot, the most gifted readers may have little or no formal training. I seek out the gift, not the certificate that wraps it. terri

Moongold	18 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by tmgrl2 My no doesn't mean that the quest for a more unified, universal and organized approach to the study of Tarot should not continue. terri Thanks terri ~ Your last comment interested me. There does not seem to be a unified approach to Tarot at the moment and I doubt that there ever will be, unless there is some perceived threat to the community or "social order" on health or religious grounds. The push to accredit vaguely similar fields seems to have had more practical drivers than currently exist for Tarot. I must confess I still cannot understand the strong feeling about it on Aeclectic because it does seem quite innocuous but perhaps I am missing something. The hidden agenda may perhaps be rivalry and competition between the various Tarot associations and "schools" of Tarot and if so that is a pity. Moongold

TemperanceAngel	18 Oct 2004
I voted NO, I read with RWS but have my own meanings (which aren't up the creek), some are my own and some are my mother-in-laws (devised by her)... I can apply these meanings to any deck, or new meanings appear too when I work with a different deck because I read the imagery (amongst other things). Good poll jmd, personally I think this will always be a debateable topic. I have friends who are readers in Oz who are imperative that I get my accreditation from where they did. They say the clients love to see the certificate. I have never known any clients who think that, thay just want to know how long I have been reading the Tarot for (I look young!) I teach Tarot, in my own crazy made up system way, people love it. Of course,it's not for everyone, but I believe you get the people you are supposed to for your workshops :)

jmd	19 Oct 2004
It may certainly give the impression that this is about different organisations, but this is not, in fact, the basis of these current nor earlier discussions (linked in the thread which is itself linked in my opening post). The basis for this arises principally out of concern that we begin to have greater clarity on the various issues, and the way in which some in certain organisations seem to suggest requirements that may eventuate (for example, in the UK Link thread, to my 'do we want to encourage in any manner future interference by bureaucratic administrative government bodies in our usage of Tarot?', ribbitcat responds 'I applaud your idealism , Don Quixote :-) It's going to happen at some point ..."resistance is futile"'). I have also unfortunately heard similar statements of desiring the same to happen in our own State of Victoria by those who advocate certification - and have heard it on more than one occasion since the formation of the TGA (though this appears to be neither the majority view within the TGA, nor the preponderant view by either the public or Tarot readers generally). It should be noted that the Association I am a member of, and the ITS I was previously a member of (before it ceased to operate) leaves members free to determine accreditation or otherwise for themselves - and thus does not provide certification nor endorsement. It should also be noted that some are members of both the ATS and 'professional' (which is the equivalent of 'endorsed' or 'certified') members of the TGA. The views I express are therefore to be taken as simply focussing on the issue and concerns around certification, around 'codes', and around other perceived requirements for practicing public readings. To each of these I personally argue against as implied or suggested requirement or suggestions that implies that a reader that is certified or otherwise is necessarily better. I will, however, continue to make my main posts in the other thread, and leave this one for the main purposes of polling opinions and reading various views.

shelikes2read	19 Oct 2004
One thing I have noticed, as this thread has progressed, is that a number of people are concerned that certification will mean that government bodies will end up regulating Tarot readers. My sense is that if we are concerned with government bodies taking a stance on our Tarot reading, it is a more realistic concern for us to review what, if any, anti-fortune-telling laws are on the books and make sure we're not running afoul of them somehow. The US State where I live, Pennsylvania, has such laws on the books. In order to ensure that I'm not breaking them, I have to declare that my readings are for entertainment purposes only, and state that they are only for persons who are at least 18 years of age. As long as there are governments which are trying to legislate Tarot reading for pay out of existence, I highly doubt that there will be taxpayer money spent on creating government bodies to regulate HOW people are reading Tarot, or what certificates they've earned to prove that they have learned a certain set of information about Tarot. That goes double for the parts of the US, and any other countries, where there are many conservative members of [fill in religion here] who are very anti-Tarot and think it's some kind of devil-worship. Its my understanding that there are some sects that discourage their members from using PLAYING CARDS, since they have a historic connection to Tarot. Can anyone here imagine the backlash from THAT set of constituents, if they were informed that THEIR TAX DOLLARS were being spent on creating a government committee to regulate Tarot readers? My sense is that their complaints would be audible in neighboring galaxies. IMO, Tarot is like painting. Some people take art classes to learn to paint, others just pick up the paints and a brush and have at the canvas with little or no formal training... and if the person has real talent at painting they are going to get good results either way. In the same way, IMO, the people who have received formal Tarot training are going to be indistinguishable from the people who read solely by intuition, IF they are similarly gifted with the ability to read Tarot. There are so many different schools of thought to choose from regarding Tarot -- every time I turn around, it seems I'm finding yet another way that someone defines the CC positions, for example -- that the general concensus I've seen here is, "Whatever works for the reader is right for that reader". And that's fair. So we have some people who read reversals, some who don't, some who combine astrology and numerology with the card definitions, some who use neither, some who use varying card definitions depending on which deck they're using, some who have their own personal set of definitions regardless of deck... and every one of those methods can render a brilliant reading that addresses just what the client needs most. Trying to establish government regulation of a profession that is practiced in such a wide variety of ways would be futile. (Especially when the only legislation currently on the books regarding Tarot is the set of anti-fortune-telling laws trying to regulate the practice out of existence.) Government might as well try to certify artists, if they want to certify Tarot readers, particularly since some of us are required by law to declare that our readings are for entertainment. It would be pointless and futile for them to even try. JMO, your mileage may vary, and all that good stuff. :)

yve	19 Oct 2004
I think that certification/accreditation would not be a very reliable indicator of competence or ability. It would be very, very difficult (if not impossible) to have an accepted and universal standard of testing in which would be used by all countries, states, provinces etc....If university degrees vary from country to country, and are not always recognized or accepted from country to country, how can tarot accreditation be???? Does that mean that a tarot reader from the UK is not as valid as one from Canada or the US etc? Besides, how can you measure or test intuition and the personal touch that accompanies readings? Finally, certification does not indicate sincerity, honesty or true ability....it provides a false sense of security for the consumer, and may only be a cash cow for the government...something else for them to put their paws into and make some money....

shelikes2read	19 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by yve Finally, certification does not indicate sincerity, honesty or true ability....it provides a false sense of security for the consumer, and may only be a cash cow for the government...something else for them to put their paws into and make some money.... With all due respect to the various Tarot organizations that exist, because I don't know anywhere enough about ANY of them to judge them at all, in my opinion the process of certification COULD be a cash cow for more than just the government. Who's to stop anybody from setting up a pretty website with a fancy-sounding organizational name, creating a test and offering certification? Even if the existing organizations that offer certification are doing so with honest intentions, and for the sake of fairness I'll presume that they all are, that has no bearing on whether someone else who's seeing only dollar signs will come along and try to earn a few dollars at the expense of Tarot readers who are looking to demonstrate their knowledge. I've been reading cards since 1978, and because it's only recently that I decided to look to the Internet to see what Tarot-related resources exist, I never heard of any of the existing Tarot-related organizations until a few months ago, at most. Never. That made me very hesitant to send off any money -- of which there's little or none to spare in my life these days -- for a certification from any group(s) that I know nothing about. What's more, I find it highly unlikely that the majority of NON-Tarot-enthusiasts will have ever heard of those groups, either, much less have any clue as to what a Tarot certification really means. I wouldn't do this, because IMO it'd be dishonest, but what's to stop ANYbody from just printing up a pretty certificate from a made-up organization? Heck, what's to stop someone from being REALLY unethical and printing up a fake cert from a REAL organization? Does anyone really think that a client is going to track down the contact information for that group and ask them, "Did you really certify [reader]?" Or are they just going to take the certificate at face value, provided they even pay attention to its existence at all? The only thing stopping anyone from doing any of these things is their own self-respect. I hasten to add that I salute anyone who has taken and passed a Tarot-related test. IMO that's an achievement not to be taken lightly, with or without being granted a certificate for passing said test. But there are so many factors that go into making a good Tarot reading. Book knowledge can be quantified, but intuition, consideration, ethics, and the ability to deliver information clearly and tactfully cannot. So for me, I would feel that passing the existing certification tests would only involve demonstrating PART of what I bring to the table, along with my Tarot deck, when I'm doing a reading. That's why I don't feel that pursuing a certificate is an appropriate goal for me at this time. JMO, etc. :o)

shelikes2read	19 Oct 2004
One more thing. At the risk of causing a firestorm, maybe I should explain WHY I have a certain amount of skepticism, or at least a desire to do additional research, regarding Tarot organizations that are unfamiliar to me. When I first started looking up Tarot-related information online not long ago, one of the things I ran across was the possibility of becoming accredited. So I did a separate search for "Tarot Accreditation", and one of the links that I encountered gave me a lot of pause. First of all, understand that at the time, I had no idea who any of these groups were, and very little idea of who the people who signed the letter were. I reviewed the names and realized that I've read books by one or two of them, but otherwise, I am still unfamiliar with the vast majority of the names. Also, since I had to go into Google cache in order to retrieve this link for this post, that means that the person who owned the site wanted the letter taken offline, for whatever reason. And I don't know what that reason is. Nor do I know if the situations addressed in the letter were resolved, or how they might have been resolved. Having provided all that disclaimer, and meaning no offense to anyone who belongs to any organizations named in the letter, nor any PERSON named in the letter if there are AT members listed... this is one of the first things I ever saw when I started looking up Tarot accreditation. I trust you'll agree that it's enough to give anyone who's totally unfamiliar with the accreditation process reason to have second thoughts about it. http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:8Y5bw3vxal4J:www.geocities.com/metatarot/ata.html+ata+undersigned+tarot&hl=en When I read this, I felt as though I'd walked into the middle of a movie -- I didn't have the background information to REALLY know what was afoot, and yet I felt that someone, somewhere must have felt pretty strongly about these issues to write this sort of document and attach their names to it. Anyway, please don't shoot the messenger if the issues raised in that document have long since been resolved. I realize that the dates mentioned in there range from 2 to 4 years ago. I'm only providing it as a bit of background to let people understand where *I* am coming from -- that a person in my shoes, with no experience with Tarot-related organizations who sees THIS kind of document early on in their research about Tarot accreditation is not going to come away with a very positive feeling about the whole thing. And I honestly WOULD love to know what, if any, resolution of these issues came to pass. Frankly, not knowing what happened, if anything, bothers me.

jmd	20 Oct 2004
My understanding of this issue - and I only followed it but mildly and in a somewhat second-hand form at the time (some discussion is on the Yahoo-based Tarot-L archives, by the way) - is that it has in fact been 'resolved', but also shows some of the problems intrinsically associated with accreditation procedures when in the hands of the unscrupulous (who of course will not appear such). The ATA and the TCB have each, as a consequence, reformed... and of course there are now three certification 'boards' in the USA (there may of course be more): the ATCB, the TCBA, and the WTN. In my personal view, none of these last three do justice to the promotion of Tarot - but of course that is because I personally do not agree with the claimed benefits of certification, endorsement or accredition of readers.

shelikes2read	20 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd My understanding of this issue - and I only followed it but mildly and in a somewhat second-hand form at the time (some discussion is on the Yahoo-based Tarot-L archives, by the way) - is that it has in fact been 'resolved', but also shows some of the problems intrinsically associated with accreditation procedures when in the hands of the unscrupulous (who of course will not appear such). The ATA and the TCB have each, as a consequence, reformed... and of course there are now three certification 'boards' in the USA (there may of course be more): the ATCB, the TCBA, and the WTN. In my personal view, none of these last three do justice to the promotion of Tarot - but of course that is because I personally do not agree with the claimed benefits of certification, endorsement or accredition of readers. Thanks for the head's up about the archives -- I do belong to Tarot-L, so I think I'll search the archives to see what I can come up with. THREE certification boards in the US? Yikes, lol. See, this is why I feel that there's valid reason to hesitate and do some research on who's out there doing the certifying, before anyone who's interested in being accredited starts writing out a check. No offense to any of these organizations, but until/unless I have a good grasp on who they are, what they stand for, and whether that's a good match with who *I* am and what *I* stand for, I'm not about to join any group or pursue being certified. I figure that the valid organizations will withstand the scrutiny easily, and if there are any groups whose main purpose is to separate Tarot enthusiasts from their money in the form of membership dues and testing fees, THAT will become apparent, as well. I hope.

The Accreditation/Endorsement/Certification of Readers thread was originally posted on 14 Oct 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.