Areas of life tarot doesn't cover?
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 20 Oct 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| noby |
20 Oct 2004 |
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I've been pondering lately if there are any aspects of life which are not covered by tarot. So many universal human experiences are reflected in it: love, suffering, fear, confusion, joy, family, sexuality, wealth, career, spirituality, social conditioning... Yet I wonder, are there parts of life which the tarot falls short of addressing? Enjoying of a piece of music by Beethoven, needing to go to the gym, engaging in daily habits such as brushing one's teeth, feeling compassion for a suffering animal - are these all reflected in the tarot? Do any of you find there are things, or something in particular, you have trouble tying to tarot symbolism? Or do you believe tarot pretty much covers the spectrum of human experience?
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| Rusty Neon |
20 Oct 2004 |
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Tarot is a wonderful brainstorming tool. In principle, there is no limitation to the subject areas and the questions that it can address. However, some decks may be more difficult (though not necessarily impossible) to use in some subject areas or for some questions because of the deck's narrow themes, card imagery or card meanings.
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| noby |
20 Oct 2004 |
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Good point on different decks addressing different themes. To clarify, my central question centers more on the traditional Rider-Waite / Thoth / Marseilles symbolism and archetypes. For example, sure, a "cooking tarot" may address an issue regarding cooking or the kitchen, but does the original, "themeless" tarot deck have a specific card that is or could be associated with matters of the kitchen?
In looking at Thoth keywords, or scenes depicted on the Rider-Waite minor arcana, or the major arcana as depicted by the Marseilles and its antecedents, are there aspects of daily life which seem to be missing some point of reference in the tarot deck? Or does the tarot offer a pretty good general tableau of the elements of an average human life?
Certainly, a tarot deck can't address all the possible specific activities of a human life - such as collecting antique doggie toys, but is there a card which addresses the phenomenon of collecting? Could collecting be seen in the tarot deck as represented by the Devil, the negative side of material pursuits, and a Pentacles card, reflecting a more positive aspect of material acquisition? Is it possible to do this with all the things we do - find their underlying qualities as represented by the tarot deck?
For further examples, does the tarot deck have a card which indicates rites of passage or the process of aging? A card which addresses the concept of time? In other words, how authoritative and complete are the tarot archetypes? Are there behaviors, qualities, or aspects of life that seem to be missing in the 78 cards of the tarot?
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| Rusty Neon |
21 Oct 2004 |
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In principle, there is no theme or subject matter that any one single deck, on its own, among the three decks you refer to (RWS, Thoth, Marseille) can't address nor any behaviour, quality, aspect or concept that one or more particular cards from the deck can't represent.
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| Rusty Neon |
21 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by noby
but does the original, "themeless" tarot deck have a specific card that is or could be associated with matters of the kitchen?
Examples from RWS deck:
Various possible in-the-moment interpretations:
8 of Pentacles: a short order cook
Magician: gourmet chef
8 of Wands: fast food
5 of Pentacles: Too many cooks in the kitchen
Knight of Wands: deliveryman
The World: chopsticks
Judgement: call to dinner
Temperance: bartender; following a recipe
10 of Swords: Tenderizing a steak
2 of Cups: proposing a toast
4 of Cups: "Your drink, Sir"
7 of Cups: trouble choosing from the extensive menu
etc.
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| TheLovers2 |
21 Oct 2004 |
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Rusty Neon:
I really like that. I think I'm going to try an exercise along these lines. I never thought about those cards in that way.
I do sometimes have trouble relating the cards I pull to the question I asked. For instance, last night, I asked what this person thought/felt about the letter I'd written him. I guess I was trying to get a feel for his impressions and receptivity.
I pulled, The Empress, Queen of Pentacles and Ace of Wands. I just decided to do a 3 card draw. At first, I was just confused and not sure what to make of the cards. After a point, I came up with some stuff by just fitting the general meanings of the cards into some sort of answer. I didn't do a spread - just pulled 3 cards. Well, anyway, based on the cards, it does seem the response would be positive. They certainly aren't "negative" cards.
Oh well. More often I seem satisfied with a Reading (done for myself) but, sometimes it does happen where I'm not sure what "this" has to do with the question I asked or how to make it fit.
TL2 :TLOVE
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| Cerulean |
21 Oct 2004 |
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I've been running into a few limitations myself, lately, because I've been trying to analyse a 'span' of questions that deal with a broader subject. Only when I can break down a broader question into smaller aspects can I gain the insight and answers.
"For further examples, does the tarot deck have a card which indicates rites of passage or the process of aging?"
It's true that I've run into some limitations in defining broad areas of "transitions, behaviors and customs" that do not embrace a Western world view and definition. Once in awhile, the abstractness of an I-Ching reading done in special circumstance says what I need, especially if the situation is something that I am unclear about, trying to make some sense or define specifics.
"A card which addresses the concept of time?"
I've seen books trying to introduce such constructs and in some instances, the use of cards and a meditational calendar is solved by Arthurian Hallowquest and the Druidcraft--there's meditational bent that assigns seasonal periods and minors/majors in a 'wheel of a year' context.
The Hermit's resembles to Father Time sometimes addresses aging and time to me; the Wheel of Fortune sometimes has a seasonal, circular slant that introduces the idea of cycles to me.
"In other words, how authoritative and complete are the tarot archetypes? Are there behaviors, qualities, or aspects of life that seem to be missing in the 78 cards of the tarot?"
I cannot yet articulate how some aspects of East-West thinking and some of the crossroads that I'm learning about seem to me to be separate from some of my tarot interests. I am thinking it's my limitation as a student now--I cannot compare the allegorical content of my learning or background based on my incomplete knowledge and experiences.
Sorry if this not clear at the moment--I think it's my limitations
Cerulean
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| Vincent |
21 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by noby
Certainly, a tarot deck can't address all the possible specific activities of a human life - such as collecting antique doggie toys, but is there a card which addresses the phenomenon of collecting?
Crowley says the of the Thoth deck, (and by implication, the Waite deck) that;
"It is beyond doubt a deliberate attempt to represent, in pictorial form, the doctrines of the Qabalah."
Now, if this is true, and it certainly is in the case of the Crowley deck, then some study of the Qabalah, and the glyph that represents it, the Tree of Life, might be warranted.
For now, to put it simply, any thought, feeling, idea, or material object, can be represented somewhere on the Tree of Life, and therefore by extension, with Tarot.
So, to your specific question; can 'collecting' be depicted or adressed with Tarot, the answer is yes.
Anything you can think of, can be adressed. Even something as specific as the collection of "antique doggie toys".
The Tree of Life can be used as a infinitely resizable map, an overlay which can be zoomed in, or out, to suit any paradigm, or set of ideas. It is this adaptability that makes it so useful.
Because of this, there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to apply it to, as you call it, "the phenomena of collecting". The nodes, or Sephiroth, and connections between those nodes would then all be aspects of collecting. For instance, the idea of collecting would be there, the will to collect something would be there, the physical result of collecting would be depicted, and somewhere hidden amongst those paths and nodes would be the concept of collecting antique doggy toys.
Another way of gaining insight, (and importantly, a different insight), might be to apply the glyph to the concept of dogs, or antiques, or toys.
Originally posted by noby
For further examples, does the tarot deck have a card which indicates rites of passage or the process of aging? A card which addresses the concept of time? In other words, how authoritative and complete are the tarot archetypes?
The whole deck can be used to indicate rites of passage or aging. Likewise it can be used to address the concept of time. It could even be applied to quantum physics, (and wouldn't we like to see a video of someone suggesting that to a group of physicists).
Originally posted by noby
Are there behaviors, qualities, or aspects of life that seem to be missing in the 78 cards of the tarot?
No.
Vincent
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| closrapexa |
21 Oct 2004 |
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I think it was Diana who posted that she did a reading on whether or not to add mushrooms to a dish that she was cooking?
Wonder how that turned out...
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| Tarot Sparrow |
21 Oct 2004 |
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I think the beauty of tarot is that cards don't necessarily represent ANY specific area of life. They're just pictures and proposed meanings that come together to make sense out of things. For example, you could say the 7 of Pentacles is about tending one's garden and waiting for it to blossom (as the traditional meaning) but what I'm saying is that just because it is represented this way, doesn't mean it's going to refer to one's garden every time you read it. It can apply the same principle of tending one's affairs (of any kind) depending on the question asked. There are the cases where cards play literal tricks and give you an image that encompasses exactly what you addressed, but despite that the meaning can be found to any question. So I guess, I'm not thinking of the cards as being an actual meaning, but more of a channel to interpret it. If you ask a question about time, you can create any system of card numbers to figure it out, like draw a major for the number and one of the four court cards to represent days, weeks, months, years, etc. If you have a question about how or where you could find some more antique doggie toys, and you draw the Empress, the 6 of Swords, and the 5 of Pentacles, they no longer represent their exact traditional meanings of motherhood, escape to better life, and shelter, but could be telling you to ask your mother (Empress) or a good friend where you might find some, or to try the Goodwill (5 of Pentacles) on the other side of town or the one across the lake (6 of Swords). You'll still get your answer.
Maybe I'm missing the point entirely...just the way I see it, cards don't have to possess meanings that cover all areas of life...because depending on what you ask, their meanings change and conform to make sense out of it. I hope that made sense...
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| xviiirkna |
21 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by Rusty Neon
4 of Cups: "Your drink, Sir"
Rusty...this cracked me up so much! I'm having such a dreadful afternoon today, how I hope the 4 of Cups will be on hand to serve me a cocktail when I get home tonight!
Thanks for the smile,
Sally Anne
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| Diana |
21 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by closrapexa
I think it was Diana who posted that she did a reading on whether or not to add mushrooms to a dish that she was cooking?
Wonder how that turned out...
LOL. Firemaiden wondered the same thing as you did a few weeks ago in a thread somewhere. Great minds think alike, huh?
The mushrooms were delicious.
No, there is no area in life that the Tarot doesn't cover. How could there be? The Tarot englobes all aspects of life on this earth and beyond.
I could now go and ask the Tarot if I should go to bed. Hang on... I'll go and pull a card.
"Should I go to bed?".
I pulled L'Amoureux (Lovers) reversed (from The Kris Hadar Véritable Tarot de Marseilles). I never use reversals so this card is a very strong message to me. It tells me that I am being highly irresponsible by being up so late and that my decision to go to bed is way overdue.
Good-night!
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| Ace |
21 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by noby
Do any of you find there are things, or something in particular, you have trouble tying to tarot symbolism? Or do you believe tarot pretty much covers the spectrum of human experience?
I think the Tarot can cover every possibility including the ones we don't know yet. If you are always looking for a specific card to "rule" a specific thing that means you are limiting the "meanings" of the cards to things you can be sure of. That is always a mistake.
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| noby |
22 Oct 2004 |
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Interesting thoughts here...
To clarify, I tried to express in my initial posts in this thread that I was aware that tarot cards are not tied to limited, specific, concrete meanings. If that were the case, then certainly they couldn't cover everything; the question would be silly. What I'm questioning is whether there are any underlying archetypal energies, any underlying causes for events and behaviors that the tarot deck does not include or address.
The tarot addresses underlying archetypes and qualities that include love, attraction, conflict, wisdom, confusion, family, memory, authority, freedom, travel, home, death, balance, materialism, change, illumination, defeat, success, etc.
Is there a missing piece, or are there missing pieces? Sometimes it seems to me there's something missing in the tarot deck, but I can't quite put my finger on it, and I'm curious if anyone else ever has that same feeling, or the opposite feeling, a strong conviction that tarot does cover it all.
People in this thread are saying, "Of course the tarot covers everything," but I don't see the "of course." Tarot is a set of symbols that arose in a very specific time, place, and culture, and I don't think it's obvious that its 78 cards cover the entire human experience.
It sometimes seems to me that the tarot is exhaustive and complete, but then there's always that sense that there's a missing piece or two. I ask the question because I myself can't put a finger on it.
Or is the point that the tarot is an arbitrary system which we can bend to tell us anything? Divination in the past included consulting such objects as bones, sticks, and entrails. Is any oracle simply a displacement device that allows us to project and navigate through our subconscious and hone our intuitive impulses? Is it simply a matter of finding something that gives us a way to see what we already see, or see what we want to see?
If such is the case, then it doesn't matter if there are certain aspects of human life not included in the symbolism of the 78-card tarot - we find ways to see what we're looking for in them, whether it is there or not.
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| shelikes2read |
22 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by Cerulean
I've been running into a few limitations myself, lately, because I've been trying to analyse a 'span' of questions that deal with a broader subject. Only when I can break down a broader question into smaller aspects can I gain the insight and answers.
"For further examples, does the tarot deck have a card which indicates rites of passage or the process of aging?"
My first thought, when I read this question, was the RWS "Hierophant". That card can refer to traditions being handed down, and the image itself is of a clerical figure performing some type of rite.
JMO. And since my knowledge is about 99.9% RWS-type-deck related, I suspect that people who know other decks will be able to offer other suggestions.
This is an interesting thread! :)
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| Flavio |
22 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by noby
Or is the point that the tarot is an arbitrary system which we can bend to tell us anything? Divination in the past included consulting such objects as bones, sticks, and entrails. Is any oracle simply a displacement device that allows us to project and navigate through our subconscious and hone our intuitive impulses? Is it simply a matter of finding something that gives us a way to see what we already see, or see what we want to see?
I don't believe Tarot is an arbitrary system, full understanding and description of the archetypes is beyond words, and as archetypes they can be considered a flexible concept found under many circumstances without loosing its essence.
I can remember Rachel Pollack in 78 Degrees of Wisdom saying something like the depth of the answers we get from an oracle depends of how complex the oracle itself is (if anyone has the book around please help us with the right quote) bones, sticks and entrails are limited divination systems that might not open divination doors as deep as Tarot can.
I believe Tarot can give us answers regarding any area of life but to get the right answer, previous knowledge of the cards, symbolism and associations is needed, then we have to make the right question and depend on your reading system design a spread or not and then apply everything during interpretation, I believe we are rewarded with answers according to our knowledge level and intuition degree.
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| noby |
22 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by Flavio
I can remember Rachel Pollack in 78 Degrees of Wisdom saying something like the depth of the answers we get from an oracle depends of how complex the oracle itself is (if anyone has the book around please help us with the right quote) bones, sticks and entrails are limited divination systems that might not open divination doors as deep as Tarot can.
A good point, and perhaps this is why tarot is so successful and useful as an oracle. It's a system of a good level of complexity with a good number of points of reference, not too much so that it becomes impossible to grasp, but just enough to make it thorough.
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| Ace |
22 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by noby
Is there a missing piece, or are there missing pieces? Sometimes it seems to me there's something missing in the tarot deck, but I can't quite put my finger on it, and I'm curious if anyone else ever has that same feeling, or the opposite feeling, a strong conviction that tarot does cover it all.
People in this thread are saying, "Of course the tarot covers everything," but I don't see the "of course." Tarot is a set of symbols that arose in a very specific time, place, and culture, and I don't think it's obvious that its 78 cards cover the entire human experience.
It sometimes seems to me that the tarot is exhaustive and complete, but then there's always that sense that there's a missing piece or two. I ask the question because I myself can't put a finger on it.
It is possible that you have a block-a blind spot- that you don't want to look at. You are becoming aware that it is there, but not sure how to find it. It is an area that you might need help on but you don't want to cover.
Or is the point that the tarot is an arbitrary system which we can bend to tell us anything? Divination in the past included consulting such objects as bones, sticks, and entrails. Is any oracle simply a displacement device that allows us to project and navigate through our subconscious and hone our intuitive impulses? Is it simply a matter of finding something that gives us a way to see what we already see, or see what we want to see?
If such is the case, then it doesn't matter if there are certain aspects of human life not included in the symbolism of the 78-card tarot - we find ways to see what we're looking for in them, whether it is there or not.
I think so. I believe that ANYTHING can be an oracle: i have read m&m's and candy hearts. I think that the tarot is a way to tap into the greater universe, but as others have said, it still is just 78 pieces of cardboard with pretty pictures on them. I don't think you can "bend them to tell you anything" in the sense that they won't lie. The hard part is accepting what it is saying.
VERY Good question!
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| Sillanza |
22 Oct 2004 |
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Noby, how are your readings going? I don't know how long you've been reading, but your question sounds like one I asked myself right before I let go, and trusted in my intuition. That was the part I couldn't put my finger on, and that's the part that's not contained in the tarot: it's contained in the reader.
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| punchinella |
23 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by Vincent
The whole deck can be used to indicate rites of passage or aging. Likewise it can be used to address the concept of time. It could even be applied to quantum physics, (and wouldn't we like to see a video of someone suggesting that to a group of physicists).
I think the physicists would swoon :D
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| Moongold |
23 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by Cerulean
.
"For further examples, does the tarot deck have a card which indicates rites of passage or the process of aging?"
"A card which addresses the concept of time?"
Mari,
I think it could depend on how you ask the questions about time and aging.
For instance if you asked "What do I need to know about managing the aging process?" you would get some very succinct responses.
Even questions less direct than that could get direct responses. Some of the Court Cards could be seen as implicitly dealing with age as well.
Tarot cards associated with Saturn could also have somethng to do with time and age but I realise that is quite Weatern.
My best wishes ~
Moongold
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| closrapexa |
25 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by Ace
I think so. I believe that ANYTHING can be an oracle: i have read m&m's and candy hearts.
What did they tell you?
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| shelikes2read |
25 Oct 2004 |
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ace
I think so. I believe that ANYTHING can be an oracle: i have read m&m's and candy hearts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by closrapexa
What did they tell you?
I bet it was something sweet! :D
[dodging tomatoes ;)]
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| WalesWoman |
25 Oct 2004 |
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I'm trying to think and I can't think of anything I've not been able to answer with Tarot, I just didn't make the connection that it was trying to get across until later.
One freind of mine had some really bad smells coming from her plumbing and was doing all sort of things to figure it out to no avail. She used the cards and got 4 Pents, 10 Pents & Sun or something like that. She decided it was a family of bacteria growing like crazy, it wasn't a clog, but it smelled like one, poured some bleach in the drains and the problem went away.
Last week she did a reading for a man who's business was going down due to competition coming in, he wondered what he should do about it and joked about sabotage. She turned over the next card in the reading and it was ...guess... 7 Swords. LOL
Sometimes when the 9 Wands comes up, I need to remember to duck, because I couldn't imagine what it could mean and went under the house to do something and hit my head on the girders, about scalping myself and got a headache to boot.
Some times it thinks it's Dr. Ruth and can be quite graphic. Can't imagine what I'd come up with from the Lover's Tarot.
Like I said, it isn't what it can't address, it's limitation is the one trying to figure out what it's addressing, especially when it's just a general what's going on or daily card...those are so much fun figuring out and almost always make me laugh when I finally get it.
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| Ace |
26 Oct 2004 |
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Sorry, I was out of the loop for a couple of days! The candy readings were interesting: I was at a science fiction convention and someone else was running a chocolate readings workshop. SO we all made up our own ideas on how to read with M&M's. I did a Horoscope spread, with different meaning for each color: red in the 2nd house of financial security? you have money trouble, etc.
We also broke chocolate mini-bars and for the first time ever I mananged to Scry: off the rough edge of a chocolate bar! This was so much fun! and so fattening!!
The valentine hearts oracle is my own version: take 1-3 hearts and read the color and message: Hi, cutie, in yellow: he wants to be friends, oh, boy in green: someone might be jealous!
Flavio, you are right, the nature of an oracle can limit what it can see: a candy hearts oracle probably will only answer love questions, but most oracles (IMHO) are just a way to access the askasic records, so why can't they be good for almost anything?
I don't want to hijack this thread, but I wanted to answer. I will post here then start a thread in Divination on unusual oracles.
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| Flavio |
26 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by Ace
Flavio, you are right, the nature of an oracle can limit what it can see: a candy hearts oracle probably will only answer love questions, but most oracles (IMHO) are just a way to access the askasic records, so why can't they be good for almost anything?
Maybe it is just needed to develop the symbolic correspondences but if the oracle is symbolic-wise poor, then the oracle won't take us so far.
I don't want to hijack this thread, but I wanted to answer. I will post here then start a thread in Divination on unusual oracles.
:) Look forward for this thread, I've some junior high memories to share :)
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| SFGMaster |
26 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by Flavio
I can remember Rachel Pollack in 78 Degrees of Wisdom saying something like the depth of the answers we get from an oracle depends of how complex the oracle itself is (if anyone has the book around please help us with the right quote) bones, sticks and entrails are limited divination systems that might not open divination doors as deep as Tarot can.
I realize I'm a bit late to join in this thread, but I think this quote is very important.
As a former mathematician (turned computer tech) one of the things that amazes me about Tarot is the simple fact that it is so nearly infinite. The small deck of 78 Tarot cards that you can hold in your hand can be rearranged into approximately
11,324,281,178,206,297,831,457,521,158,732, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
different sequences. Without reversals. That's considerably more than the number of molecules in the earth.
This means that it's highly likely that over the course of history, no two Tarot decks have *ever* been shuffled and came up in the *exact* same 78-card order. It's mind-boggling to think about it.
To relate this back to the topic, it seems to me that an oracle such as this with practically infinite combinations, would have a similarly infinite number of messages which it can share with us.
--:THIER
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| Kath |
26 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by SFGMaster
The small deck of 78 Tarot cards that you can hold in your hand can be rearranged into approximately
11,324,281,178,206,297,831,457,521,158,732, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
different sequences.
Wow, that really brings home those ‘re-appearing’ cards in readings, doesn’t it! I guess when tarot wants to tell you something, it’s prepared to defy the odds to do it!
I've done readings for everything from when will my friend's house be sold to why my Rocky Horror Show tickets haven't turned up yet. There really isn't any area that tarot can't give some enlightenment to. :)
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| shelikes2read |
26 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by SFGMaster
I realize I'm a bit late to join in this thread, but I think this quote is very important.
As a former mathematician (turned computer tech) one of the things that amazes me about Tarot is the simple fact that it is so nearly infinite. The small deck of 78 Tarot cards that you can hold in your hand can be rearranged into approximately
11,324,281,178,206,297,831,457,521,158,732, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
different sequences. Without reversals. (Square that number if you do use reversals.) That's considerably more than the number of molecules in the earth.
This means that it's highly likely that over the course of history, no two Tarot decks have *ever* been shuffled and came up in the *exact* same 78-card order. It's mind-boggling to think about it.
To relate this back to the topic, it seems to me that an oracle such as this with practically infinite combinations, would have a similarly infinite number of messages which it can share with us.
--:THIER
Yikes! If you don't mind my asking, what's the formula that yields that number? (Walking font of minutiae that I am, I need to know these things. ;))
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| Rusty Neon |
26 Oct 2004 |
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P.S.: The 78 factorial figure [78 x 77 x 76 x 75 .... x2 x 1] is based on pulling 78 cards in a row (no reversals) and laying them out.
However, if you pull a card, read it, put it back in the deck, pull another card (which might 1 time in 78 be the same card), read it, etc. for a total of 78 cards, then the number of possible combinations is even more more astronomical:
78 x 78 x 78 x 78 x 78 ....
i.e., 78 multiplied by itself 78 times [in other words, 78 to the 78th power]
= 3.83158981 x 10 to the 147th power
http://216.239.37.99/search?hl=en&q=78+to+the+78th+power
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| SFGMaster |
26 Oct 2004 |
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Rusty's already beaten me to the explanation of the 78!(factorial)=1.13x10^115 for the full 78-card sequence. Here's another number that may prove interesting, though, since it pertains more to the way we actually read...
If you use a standard 10-card Celtic Cross, without the use of reversals, there are 4,566,176,969,818,464,000 different possible combinations of 10 cards. With reversals, make that 4,675,765,217,094,107,136,000. Still an astounding number, just for a 10-card spread.
{formulas for above: 78!/68! for no reversals, (78!/68!)*(2^10) for reversals.}
Now think of how many times you've gotten spreads that have a lot of the same cards in them when addressing the same question more than once, and feel the chill. ;)
--:THIER
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| Rusty Neon |
26 Oct 2004 |
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78 card layout with reversals:
156 x 154 x 152 .... x 4 x 2
SFG ... How do I work that out in factorials?
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| SFGMaster |
26 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by Rusty Neon
78 card layout with reversals:
156 x 154 x 152 .... x 4 x 2
SFG ... How do I work that out in factorials?
EDIT: Ok, that was completely wrong. Hopefully no-one saw that. Let's try again:
Step 1: Take 78! to get the number of sequences.
Step 2: Reversal is a "heads or tails" sort of property, so take 2^78 to get the number of possible reversal patterns in a string of 78 cards.
Step 3: Multiply them together; i.e., for each of the 78! sequences, there are 2^78 reversal patterns to go with.
Answer: 3.42x10^138.
(As a side note, you'd get the same answer with your method. Each of your 78 numbers is multiplied by 2; my formula just pulls all of those 2's out into the "2^78" part to make it all tidy.)
--:THIER
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| Rusty Neon |
26 Oct 2004 |
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SFG: Thanks. Your suggestion of 78 factorial multiplied by 2 to the 78th is a good approach. However, is there any simple way to directly calculate the series 156 x 154 x 152 x ... x 4 x 2? I take it that your approach is the only quick way to actually calculate it?
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| SFGMaster |
26 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by Rusty Neon
SFG: Thanks. Your suggestion of 78 factorial multiplied by 2 to the 78th is a good approach. However, is there any simple way to directly calculate the series 156 x 154 x 152 x ... x 4 x 2? I take it that your approach is the only way to actually calculate it?
If you're asking how to do it as a formula using factorials, then yes, you need to use 78! and separate the doublings out as 2^78. There's no good way to "divide" the odd numbers back out if you started from 156!. You don't *really* have 156 cards, after all, you have 78 cards, each with a binary "orientation" property, as in the formula I made.
You could of course always "crunch" the numbers manually as you originally described, but that seems the inferior option. ;) {EDIT: Ah, yes, you added the word 'quick', which that wouldn't be. So, no. :D}
Edit #2: As a purely hypothetical sidenote, you can use the same principle for other orientation sets other than binary. For example, suppose you had a deck that was perfectly square, so that each card could instead face North, South, East, or West, instead of just North or South. Then, you'd do (78!)*(4^78) for possible sequences with orientations.
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| Rusty Neon |
26 Oct 2004 |
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sfg ... You beat me to it. :) I was going to post about square cards with four orientations and round cards with four orientations: e.g., the Mandala Astrological Tarot deck by Mann [square cards] and the Motherpeace deck [round cards - at least one of the guide books for the motherpeace gives meanings for four orientations].
http://www.tarotpassages.com/mandala.htm
http://www.astroamerica.com/t-moth.html
PS: Thanks for the reply on the factorial calculations.
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| Pipistrelle |
27 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by SFGMaster
With reversals, make that 4,675,765,217,094,107,136,000.
Wow, I didn't know they made numbers that big. To me that just says "4 GAZILLION-ILLION" :D
Originally posted by SFGMaster
Now think of how many times you've gotten spreads that have a lot of the same cards in them when addressing the same question more than once, and feel the chill. ;)
Whoa man, I'm feelin' it. I've had a lot of those recently. I might just save this thread in case I ever get confronted by a non-believer :)
Pip
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| MeeWah |
27 Oct 2004 |
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Rusty Neon & SFG Master: The higher mathematics are mind-boggling!
In view of the astronomical number of the chances of the same cards repeating--especially in a daily draw--the implications are simultaneously awesome & humbling.
Edited to add: tend to see that there is no area Tarot may not cover.
Since the meanings of the individual cards not static, they adapt to the query at hand & may be seen within that context. Hence, not unusual to see the same cards indicate completely different concepts or factors. The view may be influenced by the deck, but I have found it largely depends on the reader's perception & associations.
Btw: love Rusty Neon's spur of the moment "Kitchen Tarot". That has distinct possibilities--& seen from the perspective of one who spends a lot of time in her kitchen--since it also is where I do most of the readings!
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| Pipistrelle |
27 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by MeeWah
Btw: love Rusty Neon's spur of the moment "Kitchen Tarot". That has distinct possibilities--& seen from the perspective of one who spends a lot of time in her kitchen--since it also is where I do most of the readings!
Ooh - that's what I meant to say (but I forgot)! Those card meanings based on cooking have stuck in my mind and wouldn't it make a great game in Tarot Games and Fun?! I don't know whether it's been done before (being fairly new here) but we could suggest card meanings for a whole range of subjects - e.g. physical activity, career choices...um...okay, that's all the "top of my head" ones used up! But you get the idea...
Apologies if I've gone completely off topic here but I didn't feel like I could just go and start a thread on it because it was Rusty Neon's idea :) I just wanted to say that it sounded like a fun way to see the cards!
Pip
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| SFGMaster |
27 Oct 2004 |
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Originally posted by Pipistrelle
Wow, I didn't know they made numbers that big. To me that just says "4 GAZILLION-ILLION" :D
Lady Pipistrelle--
If you'd say it as "4.7 quintillion" we'd be speaking the same language. You're not too far off, I suppose. ;)
--:THIER
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| noby |
07 Nov 2004 |
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Thank you to all who participated in this thread. It has given me much food for thought and given me different perspectives from which to look at the tarot and one's relationship to it.
And I really enjoyed the statistical stuff - my mind marvels at things like this!
This discussion has helped me realize that no oracle can be completely comprehensive in a concrete, point-by-point way. As others have pointed out in this thread, the key ingredient is the reader. The reader must use intuition and discriminating wisdom to discern what is being said in the cards, to let the cards be a gateway to seeing into what is being asked about.
There may not be a card that precisely depicts some specific quality that is present in what is being asked about, but the discerning reader can see how the card or cards can be showing or communicating that quality in some way, as many have eloquently pointed out here.
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The Areas of life tarot doesn't cover? thread was originally posted on 20 Oct 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.
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