Christianity and the Tarot

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 11 Oct 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Paradox	11 Oct 2004
OK, my last thread was an attempt at reconciling atheism with the Tarot. This time, this thread is an attempt at reconciling Judaism/Christianity with the Tarot. Leviticus 19:26 'You shall not eat anything with the blood, nor practice divination or soothsaying. Deuteronomy 18:10 "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer..." 1 Samuel 15:23 "For rebellion is as the sin of divination, And insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, He has also rejected you from being king." 2 Kings 17:17 Then they made their sons and their daughters pass through the fire, and practiced divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him. 2 Kings 21:6 He made his son pass through the fire, practiced witchcraft and used divination, and dealt with mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD provoking Him to anger. 2 Chronicles 33:6 He made his sons pass through the fire in the valley of Ben-hinnom; and he practiced witchcraft, used divination, practiced sorcery and dealt with mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him to anger. Ezekiel 13:23 therefore, you women will no longer see false visions or practice divination, and I will deliver My people out of your hand. Thus you will know that I am the LORD." Now, granted, there are an equal amount of references in favor of the practice, but this is your topic. Discuss and figure out why Tarot is or is not acceptable to a staunch (stauch IS a key word) Jew/Christian.

Imagemaker	11 Oct 2004
I'm not at all knowledgeable about Biblical scripture, but just to point out that all your quotes are from the Old Testament, and I regard that as very, very different from the focus in the New Testament for Christians (as distinct from Jews). On another board, someone posted this in response to the "no divination" quotes: Colossians 2:13-14 (NIV): When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. --I find it quite powerful that this says Christ "canceled the written code . . . that was against us . . ."

dadsnook2000	11 Oct 2004
Paradox, you quoted all of the older books, written before the birth of Christ. He layed out 10 new rules and sort of updated the path for people to follow. The newer books and observations seem to me to have plenty of examples of people seeking ways to guide themselves. Dave.

Maelin	11 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Paradox Now, granted, there are an equal amount of references in favor of the practice, but this is your topic. Discuss and figure out why Tarot is or is not acceptable to a staunch (stauch IS a key word) Jew/Christian. This one is a bit tricky, as it depends completely on the definition of "staunch".. If staunch means someone who believes in the bible as literal truth, then we are in trouble - but people who believe in the bible as literal truth have all kinds of other struggles just getting through everyday life - what with wildly self contradictory passages in the bible and all the difficulty with trying to live a 21st century life with all those 4004 year old rules about food, clothing and relationships - reconciling Tarot to their beliefs is probably not high on their list of things to do. If, however, by staunch you mean a Christian or Jew who stll sees themselves as such, takes part in the organized religion, and practices tarot, that is a differnt question. But now we are with a group who have had to bring a document - albeit one believed to be inspired by and containing much of the spirit of God - into the modern world. In this view the Bible - both old and new testements- are documents written by real people in real historical times. What is contained therein in its spirit is divine, but what was written, and edited in countless rewordings over the centuries -is certainly not. Take the story of the Creation of the world, and of humanity. The beauty of the story of Genesis lies not in its truth - or obvious untruth from a scientific perspective, - but from the knowledge that at some point, about 4000 or more years ago, a people were struck with the idea - for perhaps the first time ever- that rather than having been created as servants to the Gods, or as playthings and entertainment for the Gods, that humans were created in an act of love, in God's own image - in the image of the divine. That's a pretty spectacular leap, and the world was never really the same again. As usual, I'm rambling, but to sneakily bring us back to the point, it is no accident that 'divination' comes from the word divine, and in it's pure form, has less to do with foretelling the future than with finding a path to and an understanding of the divine, and the divine in ourselves. If we were created in the image of the divine, then divination is a natural act, and one that necesarily brings us to our true nature. As such, not only is it not forbidden in "staunch" judo-Christianity, but in fact is one of its most important directives. Thanks Paradox - I do enjoy these brain stretchers - hope others don't mind my rambles Best wishes.

closrapexa	12 Oct 2004
I agree with Maelin. I consider myself devoutly Jewish, only I do it my own way. All thing are by the grace of God. Evil was created to contrast good, even monsters were created. Everyhting has a reason for being. As to the quotes, well, here I come to the part that will make people mad. While my faith in the divine remains intact,I see the bible, as beautiful and compelling as it is, as a book of history and myth, a book that was created for the deliberate purpose of converting others. While some basic truths have stayed intact for over 3000 years, others have to be updated. Even so, there is biblical evidence that even though witchcraft was forbidden it was still practiced and not that covertly. Saul went to see a witch in Endor to speak with Samuel and ask him if he win a war. Samuel in his turn curses him, but thats something else. Anyway, if something exists, we have no chioce but to believe that it is supposed to be there. God provided Adam with the fruits of the Garden of Eden but let him name the animals himself, thus allowing a sort of autonomy, kind of like "Use the gifts I have given you".

jmd	12 Oct 2004
The first question which has to be asked is whether the quotes are taken out of context. For example, to whom does the 'you' apply in Leviticus 19:26 and in Deuteronomy 18:10 ? It is highly specific, and not general.

acolyte	12 Oct 2004
Discuss and figure out why Tarot is or is not acceptable to a staunch (stauch IS a key word) Jew/Christian. How many marks does this essay contribut to my end of year grade?

Imagemaker	12 Oct 2004
Quote: The beauty of the story of Genesis lies not in its truth (but). . . that humans were created in an act of love. Very cool point. For those who want to know the length of the assigned paper, the amount of credit, the due date, and the number of required cited references, please consult your tarot. The spread is: 1. why do I have to do this? 2. what will I learn? 3. when will I graduate?

RedMaple	12 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by closrapexa I agree with Maelin. I consider myself devoutly Jewish, only I do it my own way. All thing are by the grace of God. Evil was created to contrast good, even monsters were created. Everyhting has a reason for being. As to the quotes, well, here I come to the part that will make people mad. While my faith in the divine remains intact,I see the bible, as beautiful and compelling as it is, as a book of history and myth, a book that was created for the deliberate purpose of converting others. While some basic truths have stayed intact for over 3000 years, others have to be updated. Anyway, if something exists, we have no chioce but to believe that it is supposed to be there. God provided Adam with the fruits of the Garden of Eden but let him name the animals himself, thus allowing a sort of autonomy, kind of like "Use the gifts I have given you". It is also important to remember that there's about 3000 years of commentary and oral tradition in the Talmud and writing up to the present. Most Christians and other non-Jews are unaware of the tradition of midrash, arguing Torah, nor that Torah is a living, breathing tradition that includes all of the writing and thinking up to my writing this here. Renewalist Jews feel that the Torah is a history of a people's struggle to understand the Divine. In some of the old books, things were forbidden because they were done by non-Jews, in other words, some of the customs were there simply to differentiate "us" from "them." In some of the divinations specifically mentioned, the types of divination mentioned were walking through fire, entrails, and other things that were "abominations," that is, things that Jews didn't do. To kill an animal to read entrails would be against dietary laws which forbade cruelty toward animals. The walking through fire is obviously just dangerous and inhumane. I agree that one of the important lessons in Judaism is to use what we have, to use our intelligence. To work to heal the world, tikkun olam, is what is required of us as Jews. Also, to quote from the Old Testament out of context, is the most dangerous of exercises, and can be used to support almost anything. The Rabbis of old discussed the texts and laws and developed a very sophisticated ethical and moral system by the time of Hillel, who was probably a teacher of Jesus, who did not come out of a spiritual vacuum, after all. So many of the prohibitions cannot be discussed outside of that context.

Imagemaker	12 Oct 2004
Thank you, Red Maple! That was a helpful and interesting clarification. BTW, I'm in Nashua :)

Paradox	12 Oct 2004
What? No people who outright say they don't mesh? I know this is a Tarot forum, but there's gotta be someone who can take the opposing side, maybe someone from a very different religion should hop in. I would, but then I'd go off on a highly offensive atheistic rant. So I'll save myself from your hatred and swallow my words.

April	12 Oct 2004
Paradox, you're killing me! Funny enough, I wrote a paper a couple years ago trying to reconcile witchcraft and Christianity. I don't think the teacher bought it. Anyway, I think this is along the lines of what I was trying to say about why some people have a narrow view of God in your last thread. Maybe it will make more sense this time. People tend to believe what they are taught. When they are only taught one thing and find out it's wrong they get angry and abandon it. I took Genesis literally while a child because that's was my backgrond and nobody told me otherwise. To put it another way, my aunt thinks Tarot cards are evil because her parents and her church told her they were and their parents and their church and back at least a hundred years. It probably started when somebody's church decided that playing cards were evil. Tarot is pretty new compared to the Old Testament. It's only when you expand your base of reference that you can hope to reconcile anything (or anyone). Quoting scripture is only useful in converting someone or driving wedges between people. My grandpa is a retired preacher who worked in very poor villages in Tennessee and Kentucky and the like about 40-50 years ago. He likes to tell a story about when his church got a new translation of the Bible and much of the congregation was up in arms. He took some aside and recited an poem in Old English (I wish you all could hear him tell it) as proof that we need new translations, or we will stop understanding it. A lot of it doesn't apply to us in the here and now. Same with Tarot. If it hadn't evolved, Paradox, you would be hard up to find a deck without religious themes. Sidenote, he claims another church member stood up and shouted, "If the King James was good enough for Moses then it's good enough for me!" I like to think of Tarot like a book (kind of like that Choose Your Own Adventure series)and use this idea as my selling point to fraidy cats. But I truly beleive that if you want to reconcile Tarot and any religion, leave the ancient texts out of the conversation. We constantly have to expand and evolve or beliefs. Peace, April

Imagemaker	12 Oct 2004
Quote: It probably started when somebody's church decided that playing cards were evil. Somewhere I read (historians, tell me if this is right), that the medieval (or so) Church wanted people to stop gambling, so told them playing cards was evil. I think most church dogma is more about the human need to control and manipulate others than any true spiritual intent or knowledge. All churches mostly remake God in a human image in order to reach a power-related agenda.

April	12 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Imagemaker Somewhere I read (historians, tell me if this is right), that the medieval (or so) Church wanted people to stop gambling, so told them playing cards was evil. I only play an historian on TV but I remember hearing something similar. That's why my dad couldn't have any cards growing up. There was probably never any mention of fortune telling or divination in the house (who would have thought of such a thing?), it was gambling my grandparents were afraid of. I remember one day in during senior lounge in high school the "chaperone" made me put my Tarot cards away because she thought we might start gambling. Peace, April

Ranger757	12 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by April I only play an historian on TV You must have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express... ;)

Vincent	12 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Imagemaker I'm not at all knowledgeable about Biblical scripture, but just to point out that all your quotes are from the Old Testament, and I regard that as very, very different from the focus in the New Testament for Christians (as distinct from Jews). On another board, someone posted this in response to the "no divination" quotes: Colossians 2:13-14 (NIV): When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. --I find it quite powerful that this says Christ "canceled the written code . . . that was against us . . ." So what do you take that to mean, and how is it relevant to a prohibition of divination in the Bible? Vincent

Vincent	12 Oct 2004
uy] Quote: Originally posted by Paradox What? No people who outright say they don't mesh? I know this is a Tarot forum, but there's gotta be someone who can take the opposing side, maybe someone from a very different religion should hop in. I would, but then I'd go off on a highly offensive atheistic rant. So I'll save myself from your hatred and swallow my words. I think you are asking in the wrong forum. You probably need a place where some people believe that Tarot is the work of the Devil. I don't think you are going to find that here. The way in which we see Tarot cards, and how we perceive that they work, or even whether they do work, is the key. The prohibition in the Bible is more concerned with knowing things that are the domain of God, rather than divination per se. The point is obvious, if you know things that only God should know, then what's the point of worshipping God. If I were a Christian, and believed that Tarot cards enabled a person to gain knowledge from demons, then as a good Christian I would most likely denounce them. If as a Christian, I believed that Tarot cards had a scientific basis that enabled us to catch a glimpse of a possible future, (and strictly no demons, imps or fallen angels involved), then I am sure I would be able to reconcile that with my faith. And for a less hypothetical view, if I as a Christian believed that the Tarot was an allegory for the Fall of Man, and which could also be used as a blueprint, or plan, to reunite Man with that which was lost, I would most likely be able to sleep at nights, comfortable with my faith. Which is one reason such a deck as the RWS exists. Vincent

Umbrae	13 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Paradox Now, granted, there are an equal amount of references in favor of the practice, but this is your topic. I'm interested in the equal amout of references in favor or the practice...

Imagemaker	13 Oct 2004
Quote: So what do you take that to mean, and how is it relevant to a prohibition of divination in the Bible I take it to mean that the New Testament quote says that Christians (as different from Jews) should no longer let the Old Testament laws rule their lives. And that all prohibitions of divination were for a time when patriarchal church leaders were trying to keep their recruits from listening to an Inner Voice instead of following the leader. For me, it only makes sense to move forward in our understanding of the Divine, far beyond the sensibilities and needs of the cultures of 2000, or 1000, or 500 years ago. I see the Bible as a historical document of how faith was, not how it can be implimented now.

Apollonia	13 Oct 2004
I see many of the Bible's rules and prohibitions as serving to maintain the Church's power, which often boils down to money. If you are paying a diviner to counsel you, it's fewer dollars for the enrichment of the local parish, so why on earth would they encourage that? And if you get a good and accurate reading from the guy with the crystal ball, you might become empowered and lose your fear of the local priest, and then what? So of course they use their most effective and cheapest weapons--threats and fear--against it, to protect their franchise.

Umbrae	13 Oct 2004
Here’s something for you… Go to Paris (France, not Texas). Go to the Ile de la Cité. Go to Sainte-Chapelle. In the lower sanctuary there is a gift stand. Stand at the center of the gift stand. Take your right hand and place it on the stand in front of you. Pick up the deck and buy it. That’s correct – you can purchase a variety of Tarot decks in a sanctuary. Food for thought.

Paradox	13 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Coatl I see many of the Bible's rules and prohibitions as serving to maintain the Church's power, which often boils down to money. If you are paying a diviner to counsel you, it's fewer dollars for the enrichment of the local parish, so why on earth would they encourage that? And if you get a good and accurate reading from the guy with the crystal ball, you might become empowered and lose your fear of the local priest, and then what? So of course they use their most effective and cheapest weapons--threats and fear--against it, to protect their franchise . Thank you Coatl! Oh, it seems the general opinion that Christians should discount the Bible as religious truth (or, at least, the old testament), and that then everything is peachy and that's the way it is. So, what books would you think should be the canon? Oh that's an awesome question! (:)) Maybe it warrents a different thread, but I think we're still following along the same line, so I'll keep it in here. Please attempt to answer this one (reconciling??).

Imagemaker	13 Oct 2004
Quote: Go to Sainte-Chapelle. The most gorgeous room of blue stained glass I ever saw! Transcendent, just to be in there on a sunny day! Never noticed the gift stand while I was levitating . . .l

April	13 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Paradox So, what books would you think should be the canon? Sex and the Single Girl by Helen Gurly Brown! ;) But even that is losing its relevence. I for one am not discounting the Bible, but you have to take a few things into consideration when reading it. 1) The Bible was not written by one person in one lifetime. Discrepenies are a given. Too many cooks can spoil the broth. 2) Just because it might not have happened exactly the way it's written doesn't mean we can't learn valuable lessons about God's love. I know that Noah and the Ark is not an original story but it reminds me of God's rath and his mercy. 3) When you're translating and retranslating from a language nobody speaks and translating from translations of those translations (catching my breath) you have to take what your reading with a pillar of salt (Bible jokes kill me). No one book is more important than another. They only have whatever value the reader gives them. Peace, April

Imagemaker	13 Oct 2004
Quote: you have to take what your reading with a pillar of salt And beyond the variety of translations (implimented by humans with control agendas), there's the punctuation. The grammar book "Eats, Shoots, and Leaves" has a section on the different ways Biblical lines were punctuated, sometimes completely changing the meaning between 2 editions. I don't have the grammar book with me to find the cite, but the differences were amazing, with the very same words.

Imagemaker	13 Oct 2004
I just realized I skimmed over Paradox's statement about discounting the Bible as religious truth. I work in a private Catholic college run by an Order of Religious Sisters. In the theology classes here, taught by a priest, students are taught to view the Bible as myth--a source of inspiration, challenge, truth, how God relates to humanity, and the consequences of various ways of relating to God and others. The priest clearly says that some parents are outraged. They send their children thinking they'll get a "proper" Catholic education and find that we tell students to evaluate their faith, test it, and find what works. And the priest also says that students who come through the process have a better understanding of themselves and God than those who might be taught the Bible is literal, not metaphor.

RedMaple	13 Oct 2004
Not to mention the translation problem, or problem of historical context. Why do we need a canon? Now a canyon I could understand. But canons are often used as cannons, are they not? RM Imagemaker: I'm also in the Nashua area.

Paradox	13 Oct 2004
Yeah, my question was stupid. But still, I feel the need of being the hostile skeptic. 'We' take the concept of (a) supernatural being(s) too liberally. If 'We' know that all preconceived notions are as false as Ptolemy and Copernicus's universes (side fact, remember, Copernicus thought the Sun was the center of the universe), then 'We' should not ever worship, nor should 'We' ever attend a religious house of worship, nor should 'We' ever talk about religion. Personally, I don't believe any of those last remarks, but I'm just trying to take a stand against some of your responses. Regardless of my thoughts.....

Phoenix Rising	13 Oct 2004
Well the old testament spoke alot about sleeping with their wives sisters and maids too. I do not see the bible as a book of truth, because it has been edited, reinterpreted to fit the ruling churches at the time. It has some truth in it, but I wouldn't take it seriously. If you knew who wrote it anyway you would not be inpressed. Religion has alot to answer for. At the time of the inquisition the church put to death more people in history than any other organisation on earth. And the church is suppose to be the upholders of the bible. Healers were supposed to be evil too. A very well known healer here in NZ had always had religious people knocking at his door, calling him the devil. He was actually very christian and had a picture ofJesus hanging on his wall. He would say to them "Well if the devil helps take the pain and suffering away from people, then he is alright by me" then he would say "Well you seem to know the devil very well, because you always talk about him" and they would go away very upset.

Umbrae	13 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Paradox ... I feel the need of being the hostile skeptic. Perhaps to fathom deep inside yourself to find out why the 'hostile'...that alone colors the skepticism unduly. It puts you on the defensive before an answer arises. Remember: “If you take any activity, any art, any discipline, any skill, take it and push it as far as it will go, push it to the wildest edge of edges, then you force it into the realm of magic.” --T. Robbins - The Ascension Factor – Frank Herbert

Sulis	13 Oct 2004
Quote: Personally, I don't believe any of those last remarks, but I'm just trying to take a stand against some of your responses. Regardless of my thoughts Why? Sulis xx

Ranger757	13 Oct 2004
This has gone off topic. The word TAROT hasn't been mentioned in the last 9 posts. Perhaps it belongs in spirituality forum...

Vincent	13 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Imagemaker I take it to mean that the New Testament quote says that Christians (as different from Jews) should no longer let the Old Testament laws rule their lives. This not only removes the prohibitition against divination, but also the prohibition against murder, stealing, and the making of graven images. It seems doubtful that this is what Paul was suggesting, and if he was, he would be directly contradicting Christ who said he had not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfil it. Most Christians believe that it was the Mosaic Law that prevented Gentiles from the faith, that was being swept away, by this famous passage from Colossians. That being said, if a Christian wishes to justify divination by Tarot cards, or bombing a country back to the Stone Age, they will find a way to do it. After all, to many Christians the teachings of Christ are most inconvenient. Vincent

Vincent	13 Oct 2004
*****

ihcoyc	13 Oct 2004
The Bible refers approvingly to the practice of casting lots to help decisions. The Urim and the Thummim, mentioned above, worked like this somehow ---- though the details are lost to time. The business about them looking like the moons on the epaulettes of the Charioteer seems hard to get from the evidence; how would they work? We do know that the High Priest wore them. On his ephod. You do have an ephod, don't you? See Exodus 28 Since the Urim and Thummim were in the breastplate on the ephod, it's hard for them to also be on the shoulders. Lots were also cast by the sailors to determine who had angered the Lord in Jonah 1. Lots were cast by the apostles to name Judas Iscariot's successor in Acts 1. I see the Tarot as a logical extension of this Biblically approved method of casting lots for help in making decisions. I don't have a problem with it.

Maelin	14 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Vincent uy] I think you are asking in the wrong forum. You probably need a place where some people believe that Tarot is the work of the Devil. I don't think you are going to find that here. The way in which we see Tarot cards, and how we perceive that they work, or even whether they do work, is the key. The prohibition in the Bible is more concerned with knowing things that are the domain of God, rather than divination per se. The point is obvious, if you know things that only God should know, then what's the point of worshipping God. If I were a Christian, and believed that Tarot cards enabled a person to gain knowledge from demons, then as a good Christian I would most likely denounce them. If as a Christian, I believed that Tarot cards had a scientific basis that enabled us to catch a glimpse of a possible future, (and strictly no demons, imps or fallen angels involved), then I am sure I would be able to reconcile that with my faith. And for a less hypothetical view, if I as a Christian believed that the Tarot was an allegory for the Fall of Man, and which could also be used as a blueprint, or plan, to reunite Man with that which was lost, I would most likely be able to sleep at nights, comfortable with my faith. Which is one reason such a deck as the RWS exists. Vincent I think Vincent has hit this nail on the head. To find a group who will take the position that Tarot and religiosity cannot go together, you either have to find people who will argue that "staunch" religion ( a somewhat value laden term) necessarily denounces the Tarot, a group unlikely to be widely represented in AT, or those who believe that Tarot is the correct path, and 'staunch" religion necessarily contradicted by it. Although there are undoubtedly those who believe the latter, it is also in the nature of Tarot to be open to other ideas, and so again, Paradox, you are unlikely to find large numbers of proponents ( at least vocal ones)of that view. But, nonetheless, even though I have already posted my own personal views on this thread, I am cursed with the ability to see more than one side of the argument( it's annoying, makes me indecisive and wishy-washy). Thus, i have been wondering if there is a reasoned argument against Tarot that could stem from an interpretive rather than literal reading of the bible, and that, even though those of us reading would not agree - since we are here - we could respect - as opposed to those religious views we would reasonably decry, based on maintaining the church's power base etc. So I then thought that there might well be those who believed that the strictures against divination weren't there to cut us off from knowledge, or to keep the organized church in control, but to stop us from "cheating' on our lives. Like the person who reads the last chapter first, or buys all those tips and tricks so that they can win at computer games, could one argue that Tarot is a "cheat" on life? Here we are, such a person might say, blessed with free will and an endless universe of possible futures, and instead we keep trying to short-cut it: know the ending, find the secret 'trick". Such a person might argue that whether Tarot is or is not valid, that we were given free will by God, why are we trying so hard to give it away? I might then argue back that Tarot doesn't dictate the future, but, like a good map, shows us possible paths - we are still free to choose. And such a person might then say that many people do turn to Tarot as a crutch, and the full panoplea of Paradox's quotes dealt specifically with divination and telling the future, not self discovery with a symbolic tool, so don't try and ascribe intent in the bible that is not there! ( Sorry, got caught up in my own debate) My point - and I guess I should have one - is that there are a thousand valid viewpoints on this issue - the "other side" is a different view from ours, but it is not necessarily only self interested, or only literalist. I never could resist a good debate! Best wishes

Umbrae	14 Oct 2004
Romans, Chapter 12. verses 3. to 8 – pay particular attention to verse 6.. This is especially effective if you use a NIV. King James is vague. But to paraphrase – We each use the gifts given. And if your gift is to prophesize – than you should not be turning your back on God’s gift. Numbers 11:26 – 29 are further Bible passages that defend using the gift of prophecy. And hey…if Moses defends us – that’s hard to argue with.

Vincent	14 Oct 2004
*****

RedMaple	14 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Vincent Most Christians believe that it was the Mosaic Law that prevented Gentiles from the faith, that was being swept away, by this famous passage from Colossians. Vincent There was nothing in Mosaic law that kept people from becoming Jews. In fact, there are many many stories of outsiders becoming Jews, the story of Ruth being the best-known. Prohibitions against proselytizing came into being because Jews could be put to death for converting a Christian. In response to that danger, the Jewish community made it extremely difficult for non-Jews to convert. Would-be converts had to prove their sincerity by persevering through many refusals, and most of the time they were marrying into the community, which was a good reason for them to be loyal, rather than informants trying to entrap Jews into breaking the law. It is too bad that this misinformation continues. In fact, most early Christians were Jews, including Paul. The Jews who didn't accept Jesus as Messiah continued as Jews. The others became known as Christians. edited to add: Reading mythical texts in a literal fashion, is always a bad idea. I'm glad to hear that the Catholic college Imagemaker speaks of is teaching the texts as myth, inspirational, but not literally true. And sometimes, not inspirational. When I was 14, I told a nun that I couldn't believe in a god who was morally inferior to myself. (Yes, I am one of those who married into a Jewish family and converted....Why else would I know all that stuff?) I was referring of course to the God we were taught about who went around smiting people, who invented this sadistic place called Hell. Why would a loving God create Hell or create people who would choose Hell? I just thought I could design a better system if I were goddess :) The whole idea of G-d as a separate being, rather than as immanent in the universe seems to me to be metaphor for our limited human minds who often like to think in images of mothers/fathers/grandparents we can understand.

Vincent	14 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by RedMaple There was nothing in Mosaic law that kept people from becoming Jews. I don't think anyone has suggested anything different. What was suggested was that Mosaic Law prevented Gentiles, (not Jews) from God's salvation. Acts 1: "And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved." And it was also suggested that most Christian scholars believe that it was this prohibition that was being swept away by Paul's remark in Colossians. Quote: Originally posted by RedMaple It is too bad that this misinformation continues. I feel the same way about non-sequiturs Vincent

ihcoyc	15 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Vincent I don't think anyone has suggested anything different. What was suggested was that Mosaic Law prevented Gentiles, (not Jews) from God's salvation. Acts 1: "And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said] , Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved." I do not believe that this is the position of current Orthodox Judaism, or has ever been a widespread belief. My understanding is that Jews believe that Gentiles, unless they voluntarily become Jews, are not subject to Mosaic law. They are only subject to the "Noachide Covenant" of Genesis 9. This says, if you avoid drinking blood and committing murder you are OK. You do not have to worship the Jewish god, even.

RedMaple	15 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Vincent I don't think anyone has suggested anything different. What was suggested was that Mosaic Law prevented Gentiles, (not Jews) from God's salvation. Acts 1: "And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said] , Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved." And it was also suggested that most Christian scholars believe that it was this prohibition that was being swept away by Paul's remark in Colossians. I feel the same way about non-sequiturs Vincent I am saying that the Christian scholars are wrong.

Vincent	16 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by RedMaple I am saying that the Christian scholars are wrong. Why?

RedMaple	18 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Vincent Why? I think there is some basic mis-communication happening between us. Somehow, what I see as the point of your quote, is not, apparently what you mean, and I'm not sure what is, so perhaps we'd be best to drop it, especially as this is no longer really about Tarot. No hard feelings, I hope. These miscommunications happen sometimes. RM

The Christianity and the Tarot thread was originally posted on 11 Oct 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.