Formal training as pre-requisite for public readings

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 14 Oct 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

jmd	14 Oct 2004
Arising partly out of reflections and considerations in the UK article link thread, I thought it may be useful to ascertain current views of Aeclectic's contributing membership. Part of the beauty of a poll is its maintained anonymity - but of course a progressed discussion may also reveal some of the underlying reasons for particular views. I have time-limited the poll to automatically lock after 90 days (3 months).

Mimers	14 Oct 2004
I do not believe that formal training is necessary at all. I know many people that read very well and have had no formal training. I myself tried to take a class. The class had a prerequisite class and to see if I needed it, the teacher asked me to give her a reading. She told me I didn't need any class and it would not be right for her to take my money. What one may need before going public is practice which can be gotten here and amongst family and friends. Mimi

contrascarpe	14 Oct 2004
I agree with Mimi - I do not believe formal training is needed. It is not as though we would be performing an operation or trying a case in court. I do, however, think there is a danger with readers acting as therapists. After I read for some of my seekers, I see that there are many who come in and act as though I am there to give psychiatric advice. A good reader needs to not only learn the cards, but also temper the advice they are giving. Apart from the common sense of knowing restraint, there is nothing else about Tarot that one cannot learn on their own. Dan

HOLMES	14 Oct 2004
i haven't taken no formaral training,, let alone been certified by correspondance even. there is a four year course in tarot starting in winnipeg by dr joan mclaren, I dont live in winnipeg yet ti isnt' a full time course . for me , i decided i would go a tarot course if it was a full time course covering advanced stuff like astrology, qabbalah, and dignities and you go to it every day like school and can be done in a year, i am sure some counseling would be in there,, yet at this level , it should be incorpated into the the tarot training by role reversal and theory then after the theory all pratical by praticing on each other, and then having the teacher watch as volunteers are brought in from outside. this wouldn't be a national school , prequisite for going professional,, but if it works out perhaps it can become nationally accepted eh ? at this stage,, i would say due to the lack of standards, in certifications let alone formal training,, it will have to remain in the hands of the feedback. which i recentally read in stars book i jedi. if somone says you act like a hutt,, you can let that go,, but if five people say you act like a hutt, you might as well give in and start selling spice. (hmm i messed up the quote i will go look for it after , )

mercenary30	14 Oct 2004
I think that IF a situation existed where pre-requisites could be enforced, than satisfying the pre-requisite should be like getting a drivers license. Pass the written test, pass the driving test and here is your license. How you got the skills to pass is not the point.

Fulgour	14 Oct 2004
Formal training ~ in such things as manners and courtesy, though assumed, being rarely evidenced in public bahaviour, it would seem almost otherworldly to imagine someone who seeks to expose their reading skills to the general populace to somehow ever have considered even thinking about it. * Yoikes! That sounds terrible... but well sometimes, y'know? Really though, I'd say it's 50/50 ~ with a bow to the readers!

April	14 Oct 2004
How formal are we talking? Like a bachelor's degree? You can't make me do that again! No, really, I could waste a lot of time and money trying to find a training program that I liked. I am mostly (except for the BNU class which is pretty far from formal) self-taught and proud of it. That's not to say I don't think training is valuable, but some people work better in other ways. If someone had made me go to school to learn Tarot I would have quit a long time ago just because I've always hated school. But I do think a class here and there can be helpful. I know I haven't been here very long, but this forum has already been more helpful than any training could be. I can learn what I want from other people's experiences and beliefs and share my own. And I can ignore the topics that just don't interest me. I would rather learn from a hundred people here than one teacher in a classroom. That being said, I would like to be hypocritical and someday teach a class. Very informal, of course. Peace, April

Ace	14 Oct 2004
Formal training is stiffling, and I think NOT neccessary!

ribbitcat	14 Oct 2004
Oddly enough , JMD , I don't think formal training is required :-) ribbit

Shalott	14 Oct 2004
I took choice #3 again, for the same reason I just blathered on about here: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32241&perpage=10&pagenumber=2

Kath	14 Oct 2004
I don’t think formal training is required. Why should I spend a whole lot of money on a course when I could (and do) learn the cards myself? Who’s to say that the method of reading taught at a course will suit me? Would internet/distance courses be looked down on in comparison to real life classes? And who regulates the teachers? If it were compulsory, I could see hundreds of ‘tarot schools’ popping up overnight, charging ridiculous fees and offering bull*@# ‘degrees’. If a person feels the need to do a course, then more power to them, but it should not be mandatory.

Vincent	14 Oct 2004
I believe any sort of accreditation carries within it, the seeds of its own destruction. Far from preventing charlatans and frauds, it will encourage such people by giving them a pseudo-legitimacy. How long before a new Miss Cleo steps forth, armed with a certificate, to help reach even further into the pockets of her marks? I can hear the complaints now; "...but she had a certificate..." Will the TABI, or the ATA, or any other board be open to malpractice suits? A Tarot reader's credentials cannot be determined in the way the TABI, and others, propose. You may as well give a comedian a Certificate of Hilarity. Vincent

Macavity	14 Oct 2004
It might be a bit unfortunate if a provably FALSE accusation were laid against any of these groups? I think it's usual that individuals involved escape, but the ISP hosting the site may not be so lucky? Does anyone really know about the legal aspects of this? A start might be to check out the seminal "Godfrey versus Demon internet". Y'see me old mate Laurence actually sued an ISP for defamation of (his) character - and Won. Partly joking but... }) Maybe a carefully worded letter or petition summarising the collective grievance might raise more of a response than what appears to more akin to a cyber equivalent of a "d*mn good kicking"? :( (and notably perhaps without a body...) Macavity

HOLMES	15 Oct 2004
formal training, can do many things, 1. put them at ease with the tarot, 2. take away much of the mystique (what i can buy my own decks? dont' have to sleep with my new card,, WHAT THE DEVIL ISNT' THE DEVIL ?) 3. train them to read without fear,, if done right, in fact like astrology courses,, there is no dobut tarot courses to teach you about it,, and tarot course to teach you to go pro, they are differnt , let;s look at reflexology, you dont' have to be certified to use a book at home,, but in order to professional it helps to get certified, eh ? and that in my home study course was a hundred foot sessions with video critiquing. imagine if there was one awesome formerl training school among the hundreds of schools that pop up ? and from that basis a lot more better schools ? that it gets accepted by more and more people and not longer consider witchcraft ? formerl training could be a step into the right direction to see mainstream respect for it ? what is the formeral school or training had you be a reader for two years privatley, and read and understood certain books, as such as tarot court cards, every day wisdom in the minor arcana, tarot decoded, the book of toth,, and several others, and their focus was on counseling with the tarot,, any tarot reader who says they dont counsel in some way well i got a bridge to sell you and they should get a reality check. it is time we take responsiblity for our actions as a reader,, not to say we are responsible for the people once they leave our tarot care,, but while they are in our tarot care , we should give our best shot to help them, and make them feel good shouldn't we ? we can't get that from a book , that seperates the beginner from the helpful tarot reader,, then again, not everyone goes to tarot readers for advice but to know future and they dont' want nothing but,, and that money looks so good eh ? i think the main thing is,, as long as no board gets control of all tarot standards and makes a killing off training and certification. that isnt' what i am aming for, what i am aiming for is the well rounded tarot reader who gets respect for she put her dues into the tarot university . for they should if such a place ever gets made, not only know astrology , numerology, philopshy, counseling , some basic psychology, dective skills, and history from the marsilles, and history pertaining to their one special deck, the ideal upon leaving this school is to read well with any deck,, but well with one deck so well that it is like they were talking to god, or goddesss eheh

Teranar	15 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by HOLMES [i think the main thing is,, as long as no board gets control of all tarot standards and makes a killing off training and certification. that isnt' what i am aming for [/b] Indeed, ideally a group controlling standards would be a non-prophet group. (hehe, I made a pun on words) There tends to be less corruption when they're not paid. The only real issue I'd have with a standardized teaching/educating of tarot is argument over the origin of tarot - some say the Gypsys carried it with them, some say it came from egypt - Thoth line of thinking, and others say it originated from the gauls. (I did a research paper on it. Heh.) so with this inconsistancy as to the theology of its origin can we really teach it? And say we were to cut all the history bit out and concentrate solely on the cards' meanings... Then there would be worries about reading solely what you feel and not following the strick book meanings. I'm hesatant to let a strick teaching method prevail. Just my concerns, but I do definately agree with Holmes on the subject of putting people at ease with tarot, getting them to fear it less, and also helps people learn it most importantly! -Teranar

Little Baron	15 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Vincent A Tarot reader's credentials cannot be determined in the way the TABI, and others, propose. You may as well give a comedian a Certificate of Hilarity. Perfectly put! Yaboot

DarkElectric	15 Oct 2004
This is such a timely topic, for me at least. Recently, there have been a number of "Special Guest Tarot Readers" at several New Age shops and seminars, who claim to be "Certified by the American Tarot Association" and that this legitimizes their $90. per hour fee. One person, whom I looked up, has exactly the same credentials as me, ie: Interfaith, non denominational Minister (ULC, I'm ordained by them too),Ceremonial Magician (I was coven trained and have Priestess credentials) practicing psychic/tarot reader for over 10 years (yup). BUT...he has the ATA cert. ( I simply don't find that necessary, or essential, to be a good reader.) Apparently he thinks it makes him more credible in the eyes of the public. And apparently, he's correct about that. His seminars and shop appearances were sold out. Some of the best readers I have ever known, are just people people; folks who love tarot, can really relate to the cards in a perceptive, intelligent way, and have had NO formal training whatever. Many of these good folks are Aeclectitians. Some of the best readings I've ever had have been on the reading exchange, from other people who need practice. Sometimes they tell me that think they aren't really great at this, but they're so incredibly good it's amazing. I've also had readings done by some of these so called "Qualified Professionals". One lady in particular, whom I visited is actually utilized by our local police to help in criminal investigations. ( Gods know why. It's probably why our cops couldn't find a dead body if it were sitting on the bench in the police station. They'd think it was the dispatcher until they tried to give it some coffee.) She was so wrong about nearly everything. Only one thing was she right about, and that was an accident. (This was a psychic reading only, no tarot.) But she has been touted as "One of the Best Psychic Readers" in our town. And she had certificates too. Oh well. I'm glad that sort of thing is out there for people who like it, and may feel better if they get some sort of formal training or whatever. But I don't think it's necessary in Tarot. Now as far as learning about magic, that's another story altogether. I think some form of training is wise to have before you start actually trying to do real stuff.

lunakasha	15 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by DarkElectric It's probably why our cops couldn't find a dead body if it were sitting on the bench in the police station. They'd think it was the dispatcher until they tried to give it some coffee. ROFLMAO!!!!! :D:D:D Anyway.....I agree that some formal (or informal) training might help some of us become better readers (or not) but the bottom line for me is that I do not think it should be a requirement, and I would prefer that we keep the government out of tarot if at all possible.....(just MHO of course) :) Luna

Satori	16 Oct 2004
Interesting poll. My answer would have been different about 559 posts ago.... What would the test from the formal training look like? Define the tarot? Describe the history of the tarot. Visconti-Sforza is : A. The names of two wealthy families long dead. B. A delicious stew made from rabbit and quail. C. A new dance craze sweeping Bosnia D. None of the above. Who is Stuart Kaplan? Are swords equal to spades? What does jmd look like? Should the TdM be read intuitively or iconographically? What does exoteric and esoteric mean? Define the 78 cards of the tarot. Cutting the borders off of the cards will ruin their ability to transmit the secret messages of the Universe-True or False Which is the better meditation deck-The Manara or the enhanced Rohrig? After finishing a reading for a querent the querent is crying and dabbing her eyes with a tissue. She tries to hug you. You should: A. Extend your right hand and give her a firm handshake. B. Explain that hugging her could be viewed as sexual harassment and you aren't covered for that by the Tarot Association. C. Slap her across the face briskly twice and then smile as you ask for your $60.00. D. Giver her the upper body hug, keeping your hips well away from hers while applying three pats on her back. Be sure to be the first to break away from the hug. E. All of the above. Extra Credit Essay-Choose one: *What is the proper way to store a tarot deck? *If a tarot deck becomes tattered what is the proper way to dispose of it? *Discuss the sex life of Aleister Crowley and the influence it had on his contribution to tarot. *Pips: Illustrated or Unillustrated: Why do people still read with unillustrated cards anyway?

jmd	16 Oct 2004
Glad to say I could answer with certainty at least ONE question :)

tmgrl2	16 Oct 2004
I consider "studying" and "formal training" as being similar, so I said "yes" to formal training...because there wasn't a place in between. When I have worked on advanced degrees, a certain amount of the work is "independent study" and done by those who have an in-depth interest in a particular area. It earns credit. So...that being said, I consider that my studies here at AT, my library of books I have accumulated for reference (now about 50) and those I am reading and continue to read, along with my studies of various decks and accompanying books, can give me as much as I might gain from a "formal" training at perhaps even a mediocre "official" formal training site or school. However, certainly I would gain much more from a top-notch training/school experience from a program that hires highly experienced and knowledgable teachers. I don't believe, at this stage of my life, that I would be content to just "wing it" and learn as I go. If I had started this as an interest when I was much younger, perhaps, experience would teach me things I may never learn in a "school." I didn't though. So, I'm getting as much knowledge in the basic areas as I can. terri For example, I am salivating at the brochure for the 2005 Australia Conference...but not likely I'll be able to go.

DarkElectric	16 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd Glad to say I could answer with certainty at least ONE question :) Yes, but which one? })

MeeWah	16 Oct 2004
Voted "No". My formal training has been in the actual process of readings for others in-person first, followed by at a distance.

Satori	16 Oct 2004
I too voted no.

HOLMES	17 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by DarkElectric Now as far as learning about magic, that's another story altogether. I think some form of training is wise to have before you start actually trying to do real stuff. for me i find the tarot is real stuff,, when i do readings ,, i do it seriously even though i put some humour in there, the part about the real stuff,, that is what i think i would to see people see the tarot as,, real stuff. i know i do

HOLMES	17 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by MeeWah Voted "No". My formal training has been in the actual process of readings for others in-person first, followed by at a distance. what training did you give yourself before you started to read for others in person?

HOLMES	17 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by tmgrl2 I consider "studying" and "formal training" as being similar, so I said "yes" to formal training...because there wasn't a place in between. When I have worked on advanced degrees, a certain amount of the work is "independent study" and done by those who have an in-depth interest in a particular area. It earns credit. So...that being said, I consider that my studies here at AT, my library of books I have accumulated for reference (now about 50) and those I am reading and continue to read, along with my studies of various decks and accompanying books, can give me as much as I might gain from a "formal" training at perhaps even a mediocre "official" formal training site or school. However, certainly I would gain much more from a top-notch training/school experience from a program that hires highly experienced and knowledgable teachers. I don't believe, at this stage of my life, that I would be content to just "wing it" and learn as I go. If I had started this as an interest when I was much younger, perhaps, experience would teach me things I may never learn in a "school." I didn't though. So, I'm getting as much knowledge in the basic areas as I can. terri . i guess the line of formeral training needs to be drawn a bit more eh , 1. any form of directed teaching that one is learning to learn, by that defination any good book like "tarot for yourself "could be formeral training. ? i know i got that book but i didn't do the excerises eheh,, i am not displined enough, :). yet where it comes to an idea that strikes me i study it until i learn it,, or think i have more then a basic knowledge off. if you look at it this way,, let us take massage , any person can work the body, some better then others eh ? and if a person studies antomy so much the better, yet a person can learn more then that at a massage school, and learn to become better then they were. if you look at music, you have the person who listens to others and is self taught.. yet there can be no denying if someone shows them more chords, teaches them more about music theory, their brain can make sense of what they are hearing . if you look at a tarot, a person can pick up a book, become self taught, and heck i am self taught. yet i will not deny that if a person who has studied tarot (and not just read for others but studied as well ) they would know so much more then i about qabbalah, astrology, and deeper tarot wisdom. and their experience would obiviously make them better readers and such be able to teach me something. (that is not necessary true, because someone can do does not make them a good teacher though ). of course one can say they do not need qabbalah, or astrology to understand the tarot,, and that would be true. yet formal training can help them understand it more and see the tarot as a complete picture. with that in mind,, the special topics book and advanced book like the tarot decoded, and the book of toth (which i have't read yet ) and lon milo book on the crowley toth tarot (which i did read and help me to understand a lot more about tarot. there are means for the tarot become a more complete picture. that weren't there ten years ago i would wager. (eheh and problay lose ). from my end formeral training would have to be a person taking the waite deck and showing me every inch of symbolism in the deck. then do the same for about five differnt decks for he or she would have a masters in some sort of symbolism, psychology eheh then i would be taught the theory of counseling,, and praticality of it that her or his 30 plus years in reading the tarot can teach me. and that would be, "read it the way you feel it " (this quote comes from the quote i remembered from tender mercies where max sledge said "play it the way you feel it " to some aspiring musicans who looking for music tips ) but i will willfully admit that if i had formeral training as a complete newbie i would have shaved off five years at least from my tarot studies (then again i got sick there and didnt' study it much for at least a year but you know what i mean).

DesertHowler	17 Oct 2004
To me, formal training means that someone sets the standards as to what I read in the cards. Who's going to set these standards? Who tells me what I see in the cards. Isn't it better to get rid of readers and just let the computer spit out answers? High tech and efficient and gives the "correct" answers everytime. That is why I got out of Reiki, because there is so much controversy about who is and who isn't the authority. I just heal. DesertHowler

HOLMES	17 Oct 2004
the standards in my view would come from certifications while formeral training means to me spending time being shown the ropes by someone, or an group of people as a possible school that has set up their own curriculum might do. the two are related though for formeral training in today world is formeral training according to standards.. yes, since it hasn't happend yet,, i was going by the former and not the latter, as for reiki that is a differnt matter and perhaps we should start a new thread on that, for i am a self taught reiki master and didnt' take no formeral classes either,, i wouldn't mind it,, but took what means i had for me to be study and be get attuned to reiki. but back to the tarot, let us look at the standards, for a second, for formeral training, 1. you study this for court cards, (probaly mary k greer tarot reversals would be the curriculum) 2. you study this for reversals ( mary , and joan reversals books for curriculum ) 3. you study this for dignities ( tarot decoded for that ) 4. you study this for basics ( say 78 degrees, tarot for your, tarot for beginners, who knows ) 5. you study this for qabbalah (qablistic tarot ) 6. you study this for minors ( every day wisdom in minor arcana, ?) what is the differnce between studying it with yourself and with a teacher ? with a teacher, you get more of a faster approah, and you get to have discussions. then when you get out of the formeral training,, you knew more then you would off studying at your own pace,, or ideally . some people study a lot better at self study then class and that is why correspondance courses is ideal. yet formeral training should have some basic psychology , cousneling,, if we are talking school. or one on one, role reversals, roleplaying as well reading for your fellow classmates then ideally reading with your teacher overseeing at a exhibition.

Lee	17 Oct 2004
Holmes, if you don't mind my saying so, I think you're making the same mistake I made. I assumed that in both tarot and astrology, there were actual bodies of knowledge which were more or less homogenous among tarot or astrology authors and expert readers, bodies of knowledge with standard procedures which could be taught, like jewelry-making or watercolor painting or philosophy. All these things have creative or individual components which probably can't be taught, but also have important elements which can be taught. Tarot and astrology, however, are not like this. It's easy to be fooled, because many authors in both fields write with an authoritative tone which leads one to believe that their methods are widespread, that many people practice the same way. I feel the problem is particularly egregious in astrology. But it's an illusion. When you examine many authors and many books, you find that there is no consensus. It's entirely arbitrary and subjective, despite its objective guise. With tarot, it's even more subjective. Sure, there are traditions like the Golden Dawn, but even there, there is much variation from person to person on how they apply the GD material. And I believe most people don't even use it at all. The rest is all subjective, all arbitrary. As Vincent has said in this or another thread, in a phrase which can't be improved on, it's like a comedian earning a Certificate of Hilarity. The way a comedian learns to be funny is to get up in front of people and try to make them laugh. I think the only way to learn tarot is to read whatever books you want to read, then decide what methods you want to use or create yourself, then start reading for people and modify your methods based on your own experiences. I also think the curriculum you've created for yourself as outlined in your last post is far superior to any you'll find in any course. Discussions with the teacher will help you to understand how the teacher does it. But it won't help you evolve your own way of doing it. -- Lee

catti	17 Oct 2004
I have reached a point in my readings where i do not read Tarot interpretation books anymore. I wont do it. They mess up my reading skills by putting another set on top of my mind. They limit me and make me doubt what i feel when i read , and that is how i read. Of course i did use LWB' s and bigger books when i first began tarot.But my best teacher was doing readings , where i learned to hear my own song in the cards. To see a story and tell it regardless of the "meaning" in the LWB. And the conversation on AE is probably the biggest help in years. I went stagnant for a while and barely even picked up my cards. It is the informal nature of the study here that i respond too. I never feel that because X interprets reversals and Y doesnt use them that I have to do any of those things. I just find it interesting to see the process for others and i feel it helps my process. I dont see how any accreditation can be anything but a fraud, what is tarot anyway?

Satori	17 Oct 2004
HOLMES, I think you make some excellent points. This quite a conundrum. I have always been for education. So I agree that study is important. I like what you say that to study tarot is to study Kabbalah, Astrology, Alchemy, Dignities, the I-Ching, Runes etc. But I still feel that the certification or standardization of tarot, because that is what they want to do, set a bar and say, "This is a real tarot reader, this is what a real tarot reader should know" is very tricky business. I am studying different things in the above list. It is haphazard. Driven by what I'm interested in. I have faith and trust that since my intent is as pure as it can be, that I want to be the best reader I can be, I want to offer the sitter or client the best information I can offer, that I am led to the information I need to know. I am in a trusting place HOLMES. I am trusting that the Universe and my Guides are bringing me the clients that I can help and who can help me to grow by showing me the info in the readings. And if more formal study is part of that I will be shown that. In the meantime, I am fully enrolled in school everyday, every minute. It is called My Life. And tarot is a very big part of that.

HOLMES	17 Oct 2004
i admit lee that i am probaly making the same mistake eheh no i dont' mind you saying so :) it is fallacy for me to assume that if everyone reads forest of souls and 78 degrees that we will arrive at the same conclusion guarantee that is i did an excerise with the tarot for yourself and someone did an excerise with the tarot for yourself, there would be some sort of universality given the imagery and some sort of differences given our respective knowledge, experience and make of our uniqueness. yet not every one uses astrology when they read, numerology, psychology aspects, or even inuition based on the pictures. why force this one someone ? if i believe that formal training is a pre-requisite for public readings. i sincerly believe a professional tarot reader should be well rounded, and i am not, having not studied the marsielles where one of the major source of the tarot comes from. which brings us to the fact that not everyone uses gd meanings. so standarized knowledge of the tarot is subjective,, yet in those areas of subjective, i would argue that there is a universal keypoint to be found so we can all relate. for me the idea of formal training is knowledge, not right way of studying the tarot, with the freedome of self study based on the keys that were given in the formal training. i just recentally watched eddie murphy raw again, and he said that when he was fifeteen he didnt' have a lot of experience but all his jokes sounded like richard pryor. a comedian regardless of stature have studied some sort of master , or teacher style in order to learn from it. that is why so many comedians call richard , bill, eddie, robin, david spade, one of the comedians they respect and influence them. true there is no wise spread comedy school yet imagine if there was with no right way of doing it but the teaching of knowledge in other words a comedian goes to the school and pratices richard pryor delivery,, then perhaps his life in order to see where he was coming , then perhpas how he progressed. and at the end of the sesemester or course they have to go on live ? if i was a comedian i would go there. on a side note i have two learn how to be a comedian books that teach how to teach yourself to be a comedian. i am sure that is just the beginning Stand-Up Comedy : The Book http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0440502438/qid=1098021534/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/103-7198698-5673434 I think anyone would agree that voice lessons can help the aspiring singer who is teaching themselves to sing as they learn about breathing *that didnt' occur to me as i sang karaokee badly * scales excerise, presentation. and help them to progress more then if they didnt'. it can make a bad singer sound not bad, a not bad singer sound good,, a good singer sound great,, and so forth, even madonna took voice training and it took me a few minutes to get used to it ,, but i love her new sound. ""I think the only way to learn tarot is to read whatever books you want to read, then decide what methods you want to use or create yourself, then start reading for people and modify your methods based on your own experiences."" this is how i been learning and is ideal for correspondance courses given the outline i posted eheh :) "I also think the curriculum you've created for yourself as outlined in your last post is far superior to any you'll find in any course." true, i think for the advanced tarotists, they would need to learn on their own,, yet consider the costs i spent learning,, i have some 30 books . that would be 750 books, and half of them are just redunant just said in another way, while the other half had some new concepts. the costs may hold back some tarot learners. (and there are more books i wouldn't mind ordering :) "Discussions with the teacher will help you to understand how the teacher does it. But it won't help you evolve your own way of doing it. -- Lee" discussions with the teacher can help you understand the basics faster, and give keyes to help you evolve your style. that is the basis for studying the masters. example they say eric clapton, stevie, all studied the blue masters and that help them make their own style based on that study i think the training like any training can make some tarotist clones,, yet that is true with any study, and training. it is up to the formal trainers to emphasis developing your reading style that works well for you based on your knowledge.

HOLMES	17 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by elf It is called My Life. And tarot is a very big part of that. yes, i am focused on the training aspects as i am big on that,, i am not focused on accrediation, who will decide that, what makes a true tarot reader who can make a living based on that. that i will leave in the hands of those who make such decisions when it comes to it, and then if necessary argue my case in articles, letters if need be. after the training comes life, and the expereince of reading which we already should have by the time we go public reading. 1. we read in the reading exchange isnt that public ? yes,, but i am not getting paid for it, i am praticing my craft 2. i read for friends and family and sometimes get ten dollars for it , aren't i a hyprocryte ? nah, for i didnt' go pro yet and if they want to give me ten dollars it helps me with my ego to point me towards going pro by saying yes i am worth it. it is up to us to use life to prepare ourself for public readings, and after we go pro to get better by future study and working. but before we go live as a pro, it is up to us to pratice pratice, for a musican wouldn't go on stage without some sort of pratice, a comeidan should have his act on stage,, woe to the comedian who thinks they can imrpovise going on stage. (i know i failed at it in drama class for i didnt' have an act and i thought i could fake my way through ,, ohh cringes at it ) robin williams is so good at his sets that we think he is improvising and in some ways he is, by the sounds, perhpas differnt ways he does things.. yet if you watch him close enough you notice certain things repeating. granted it takes multiple watching. if you look at jerry seinfield in the comedian lately he went on stage with five minutes of material and develped it through pratice on stage, and in the beginning went on announced without pay in order to get it down pat. and that brings me to a major point i didnt' mention,, all this points i been making have been for public readings as a professional.

littlehermit	17 Oct 2004
Training is great. Training as a prerequisite may not be. Look at professional singers. Some of them have postgrad degrees in vocal performance or pedagogy. Some of them have postgrad degrees in something entirely unrelated to music. Some of them never even learned to read music. The audience doesn't care what certifications, degrees, diplomas, or years of training the singer has had (in fact, accomplished professional singers rarely put educational credentials on their bios, no matter how many they have). The audience only cares about this: Are they any good? Do we like what they're doing? I can't help but think tarot reading is much the same way. Years of education and training can be immensely helpful... but they are NOT the measure of who's good enough to make it as a pro.

Kiama	18 Oct 2004
I have absolutely nothing against Tarot Courses, workshops, talks where people 'teach' others about Tarot. But the sign of a great Teacher (with a capital 'T' there, folks) is that they know they cannot impart all their knowledge to their students; they know they also don't know everything about the subject matter (especially with Tarot!); they know that their job as a Teacher is not to hammer their own views into other people, but to set down the possibilities before their students and offer them the opportunity to put everything together in the manner that best befits them. Tarot, because of what it is, is something that you can never know everything about. It deals with such complicated things as human nature and experience, and the nature of the Universe- and these things you can never know all about. Heck, you can barely know a smidgeon about them! So, how on earth are we to set standards as to what Tarot should be, how it should be practiced, and what the complex concepts within the Tarot (love, death, time, law, nature, creation, spirit...) mean? Human experience is so varied, so that every person who reads Tarot will view the concepts contained within it in a very different manner. Stick me and, say, a Buddhist or Hindu in a room with a bunch of Tarot decks and get us to discuss them, and we'll soon find out just how different we really are. (I constantly experience this now, because I'm good friends with somebody who uses Tarot from a Vedic/Buddhist perspective.) Teaching Tarot can be good for both teacher and student- the teacher, through analysing and expressing their own ideas, can learn a lot about the way they read Tarot. The student can get a different perspective on things. Studying Tarot with a group of people, or 'under' somebody who has more experience can also be valuable- after all, you can only go so far with Tarot on your own. After that, it helps to have others around (like the people here on Aeclectic) to chat to, to get ideas from, to tell your own ideas to. Now me, I agree with Meewah: my 'formal training' and my 'credentials' come from years and years of studying Tarot. They come from reading in bars and pubs and clubs for all manner of people. They come from doing silly readings about an old car, to doing serious and horrifying readings for the victims of abuse. They come from meeting so many different people- all from different backgrounds with different problems, aspirations, desires, and fears, different Questions. All wanting Answers. My certficate is my battered and worn Robin Wood deck- the edges and backs brown with use, the smell that reminds you slightly of baby powder and alcohol, the slight marks where somebody has accidentally touched the cards with pen, or spilled drinks on them. The fact that the deck has been used for hundreds upon hundreds of readings. To me, experience is what counts most with the Tarot. Not the fact that somebody's done a course. As I said earlier, whilst I love Tarot courses and teaching, experience is what counts in the end. Just my tuppence. Blessings, Kiama

HOLMES	18 Oct 2004
experience counts very much. you have your good experience, and your bad experience,, the good experience, a person who has a good understanding of the basics and every card reading leads them on to new understanding i hope , the bad experience, for lack of a better word the person has an old school take on the tarot,, devil being dark forces, death being actual death, tower being house burnt down, for that is what they thought it meant. and after years of that, well, or a person who doesn't even pick up a tarot book for their inuition is high could fall into this category for they would still be relying on that. that swords are an actual fight, pentacles is actaully money, then again who is to say it isnt,, and that the person could be giving very pratical readings as not all readers read on the spiritual level. at this stage where you have your battered worn robin wood and did readings in bars as such,, you already passed the initial pbulic reading phrase as beginner. now if you had formal training of a kind to prepare you for it , would it have gone smoother ? the part about the teacher can't teach everything that is true,,yet for the beginner to go to intermediate that would be one of the fastest ways. i guess that one has done enough study in theory and if doing a lot of self readings if not readings for others they don't require formal training for they have studied much of it already given the quality of their study materials.. yet if one hasnt' done enough study and has just the basic knowledge of some of the cards and decides to jump into the reading field for they want to see what it is like,, training under fire,, an intenstive formeral training would of helped them to prepare for it,, sure lots of tarot readers learned that way,, to see where they can study,, where their strenghts are ,, and their weakness. yet think of the clients . the universe doesn't give us more then we can handle,, sometimes though in order to give us a wake up call , hey dude you need more study. a course big hairy deal,, ehhee , it gets that reputation for many of us didnt' take one,, there is no standards for it,, and heck if i have to be forced to take one, you see all my discussion has been for the structlized study before going live with a system or teacher giving you a good outline of the possilbilities (possilbities not right or wrong ) yet looking at the title agian, it is clear that one can take it to mean that the govenment after setting the standards in that other thread,, can set this up as a rule, which would give the tarot a sort of legality, yet can drive away many tarot readers, due to their heirophant energy being reversed. 1. voluntary course are good 2. no forcies by govenment(though i would probaly find a way to take a correspondance course i am not closed to it so i would fall into the heirophant line and emperoric energy ) 3. if no courses should self study well before jumping into the fire for fastest development

Osher	18 Oct 2004
There are two basic elements to this question: 1. Can (or should) one learn Tarot from lessons, with subsquent issues of the relative value of lessons 2. What is the value of a certificate. To answer the first one, everyone is different. For some, training enhances, for other, it might ruin natural gifts. However, the question of what's the best approach is very individual. The first question naturally evolves into the second, i.e. what is the value of a certificate? The answer is that the public are being asked to hand over a resource (money) to a stranger. In this instance, we need reassurance that we are not being taken for a ride. Now, that might seem obvious, but it goes deeper. In a small village, there is no need for a certificate, as everyone will know that the person is, or is not, a good Tarot reader. In the same fashion, we need degrees to prove to others that we have capabilities, but in a small village where that person is well known, there might be no need for this certificate. Therefore, certificates are symbolic of the interaction of strangers. For the stranger, they provide assurance. They are also symbolic of something else, that is, that people have little trust in themselves. In truth, the only certifcation one needs is that of reputation. However, in the age of science, and attempts to understand and quantify everything, there is a place for certificates. Yet, the people who they placate are quite possibly those who will gain least from a Tarot reading, as they do not have the self-trust that is so important for life.

Kiama	18 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by HOLMES at this stage where you have your battered worn robin wood and did readings in bars as such,, you already passed the initial pbulic reading phrase as beginner. now if you had formal training of a kind to prepare you for it , would it have gone smoother ? the part about the teacher can't teach everything that is true,,yet for the beginner to go to intermediate that would be one of the fastest ways. Hi Holmes, Now, you'd need to define some terms here- such as 'intermediate' and 'smoothly'. What is it that makes Tarot learning and experience run more smoothly I wonder? I also disagree that for the beginner to go to intermediate quicker they should find a teacher- as I said before, I don't see any real definition of 'intermediate' in Tarot at all, and see no reason to grade it in such a way. 'Just started' and 'have been reading for a while' and 'have been reading for a while on and off' are my gradings- but considering there are no right and wrong answers with Tarot, how can you grade somebody as 'Intermediate' or 'Advanced'? And why would somebody standing up and saying what you can find it a book to you, telling you their way of doing Tarot help you learn quicker? Why not come to Aeclectic instead? In my opinion, no Tarot class or book can ever prepare you for the first client you get who sits down and says 'My husband is beating me, what should I do?' or 'I want to kill myself- I need some help.' You cannot be trained in how to deal with a distraught querent, an angry querent, a difficult, stubborn querent, etc. You can read all the books you like about it, and somebody can talk at you about it, but the real learning takes place as it happens- when that querent sits before you and asks the dreaded questions. Also, I don't see any rush with Tarot- why should we feel we have to rush our Tarot studies, and learn quickly? What's the point? Why not just let it happen to you- study where your mind and life leads you. Tarot is such a labyrinth when you're learning it, so it's very difficult to set down any structuralized study or courses. But the thing is- you know you're getting somewhere with Tarot when you are lost in the labyrinth, because then you're surrounded by so many thoughts, ideas, and discoveries- and after a while they'll all begin to mesh to form your own opinion of Tarot. Blessings, Kiama

tmgrl2	18 Oct 2004
Yes, Kiama...a labyrinth. I like that concept. Like the Tree of Life, multidimensional. I also think of lots of learning "dots" inside of me that gather as I practice reading, learn here at AT, study books, share ideas....then sometimes, they connect and I get a Gestalt of something...the dots get closer and closer until an internal concept forms. We had the discussion about "certification" awhile back. I'll put in the link. I am of the mind now, however, that what I am learning now is or will be down the road, as valid as any piece of paper I get from a formal school....if I do the work in all areas. http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24629 I think this link is worth reading. Since I started that link, I have come to totally agree with jmd's statement about licensing or certification. terri

HOLMES	18 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Kiama Hi Holmes, Now, you'd need to define some terms here- such as 'intermediate' and 'smoothly'. What is it that makes Tarot learning and experience run more smoothly I wonder? I also disagree that for the beginner to go to intermediate quicker they should find a teacher- as I said before, I don't see any real definition of 'intermediate' in Tarot at all, and see no reason to grade it in such a way. 'Just started' and 'have been reading for a while' and 'have been reading for a while on and off' are my gradings- but considering there are no right and wrong answers with Tarot, how can you grade somebody as 'Intermediate' or 'Advanced'? And why would somebody standing up and saying what you can find it a book to you, telling you their way of doing Tarot help you learn quicker? Why not come to Aeclectic instead? In my opinion, no Tarot class or book can ever prepare you for the first client you get who sits down and says 'My husband is beating me, what should I do?' or 'I want to kill myself- I need some help.' You cannot be trained in how to deal with a distraught querent, an angry querent, a difficult, stubborn querent, etc. You can read all the books you like about it, and somebody can talk at you about it, but the real learning takes place as it happens- when that querent sits before you and asks the dreaded questions. Also, I don't see any rush with Tarot- why should we feel we have to rush our Tarot studies, and learn quickly? What's the point? Why not just let it happen to you- study where your mind and life leads you. Tarot is such a labyrinth when you're learning it, so it's very difficult to set down any structuralized study or courses. But the thing is- you know you're getting somewhere with Tarot when you are lost in the labyrinth, because then you're surrounded by so many thoughts, ideas, and discoveries- and after a while they'll all begin to mesh to form your own opinion of Tarot. Blessings, Kiama [/b] well i used the term for interemedaite by the quality of books list in tarot passage and our own aeclectic tarot site. and for me the beginner according to knowledge is a person who has just learned the standard meanings, and looking to learn more like why does it mean that? for smoothly i was refering to the process as get better faster. as for teacher,, i ordered some tapes and the person who made them refered to himself as my teacher and i said yeahhh right. but i realized yes it is true. every book teaches us something, and so we do get better by teachers, even if that teacher is an author sharing his ideals or system.so in that sense we all have found a teacher to teach us the basics, be it eden grey, mary k greer, or whoever our first tarot book is. to say we do not need a teacher is have a person take a deck and read it totally inutivitely with their own person meanings without any tarot books. i can only use my own growth,, i was not bad when i first came here, but i used the resources of the book reviews to find out what i wanted to learn and in the study of many teachers i got better then i was , for i understood tarot cards a lot more like temperance and star and moon then i ever did at the beginning. there is no set example of beginner, intermediate, or advanced in the sense if you know this you are advanced, but in the sense for me of if you know of the possiblities of astrology, qabbalah psycology, dignities (and to share i thought i ill dignifed for years and years was reversed and well dignifed was upright ) and they dont' have to use them but know of them and can rely on them if their inuition fail in order to quick start it. not everone has aeclectic in the millions of people in the world, and there are some people who read tarot for years and dont' even know it exists who would be struggling with the tarot or perhaps dont' know where to go from here and lost interest in it. in the case of the first client, rarely is it so dramatic, especially if we use the principle the universe doesnt' give us more then we can handle :) we all would of read for friends, family and freinds freinds by then (i hope i did that so far ) and so would of been prepared somewhat for that. and the book example of how a reading goes can give us some hint,, the part about the angry client, the stubborn client, will happen, that is the counseling part where role playing and prepareness could of came in to help us in that first experience (but by then wouldnt' we have dealt with that with our pratice before then ?) the training would of gave us more confidence that we know what we are doing, and give us options of how this could mean. example we get asked by an angry client of how does that mean that. now if i didnt' know how but inuition suggests it,, i could look systemically for clues as to how my inuition and subconscious could of picked it up. there are always those who push themselves , sometimes too fast and a correspondance course with an outline i outlaid, or tarot school could serve as a buffer for it. granted that if a person has been in the tarot for years and read well or pratice well, what for do they need formalized training ? but the person (how has say 3months)who needs money, or wants to try it for they dont' know if it needs more, (which is not to say that a person with three months couldn't do it) and decides to read what the hell, would be well served with structurizlied training, the own ideas of tarot would happen much better , faster , with more wholistic view when based on structurelized training, i would think. again i can only relate to my own virgo experience of how the tarot formed a systemic picture after study.

The Formal training as pre-requisite for public readings thread was originally posted on 14 Oct 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.