Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 29 Oct 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Lee	29 Oct 2004
... to quote Gene Rodenberry. I would like to use this thread to celebrate the wonderful diversity in tarot decks which is now available to us, in contrast to decades gone by, when there were only a few decks available. There are some members here (and I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular) who are fond of making disparaging remarks about newly-created decks, the publishers who print them, and the Aeclectic members who purchase them. They certainly have a right to their opinions, but often these statements go unchallenged, perhaps because members can feel intimidated by the obviously superior intellect and judgment of those making such pronouncements. Now, first let me say that I'm biased, because I've had a deck published by Lo Scarabeo. But I had the same opinions before my deck was published. I look on the tarot deck as an art form. Artists and authors can use the tarot deck as a framework with which to express artistic energies. Sometimes it works as a reading deck, sometimes not so much. I think it's helpful to consider many of these efforts as experiments with the form. Most of them are interesting in one way or another. And many members read regularly with such decks or otherwise study them, as evidenced by the thriving study group section on this forum. To me, saying that no tarot deck is valid if it was published after the Marseille, or the Thoth, or the RWS, is just silly. It's like saying nobody should read fiction published after the 19th century (some people do actually say this). If one wants to consider one's favorite deck as coming directly from the mouth of God, and all other decks are blasphemy, that's fine. I just want to put on the record that seeing different authors' and artists' takes on tarot decks has immeasurably expanded my horizons and deepened my tarot education (and my education about life in general). I also have to laugh when the commercial interests of the publishers is brought up, as if this is the final straw in proving the publishers' evil intent. Some of the Aeclectic members who make this accusation also charge for readings. Why is it okay to charge for a tarot reading but not for publishing and distributing a tarot deck? And, guess what -- the publishers who publish those beloved classic decks don't do it in order to enlighten us. They do it to make money, just like publishers of modern decks do (in fact usually they're the same publishers). I'm not posting this to pick a fight with people. I guess I'm just trying to say that it's okay to buy modern decks, it's okay to enjoy them. It's okay to collect them and let them pile up on your bookshelves. It's okay to decide for yourself whether to read constantly with them, or to read sometimes with them, or to use them for meditation or study, or to take them out once in a while to look at them, or to look at them once and put them away without taking them out again. It's okay to jump from deck to deck, choosing whichever deck fits your mood at the moment. It's okay to read accompanying books. It's okay not to read them. It's okay to read an accompanying book and follow it to the letter. It's okay to read it and take what's valuable and leave the rest. It's okay to design one's own deck, whether it gets published or not. It's okay to publish it yourself... or not. People sometimes like to make absolutist statements. They discover what works best for them, then they want to impose it on everyone else. Just because they make authoritative statements, doesn't necessarily mean it's true. Discover what works for YOU, and follow that path for as long as it's valuable. And try to remember not to insult people who are on a different path. Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now. :) Except to say that I love Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations! -- Lee

dadsnook2000	29 Oct 2004
You shouldn't be so restrained. It might be liberating if you would let yourself say whats on your mind. Dave.

smleite	29 Oct 2004
I think that those “different authors' and artists' takes on tarot decks” are just the same as the different opinions and insights on tarot cards that Aecletian members like to share. If we don’t want to share and learn, why are we here? We don’t have to like every artist’s view, or every member’s intake on a card or a reading, but the overall idea of learning from the “infinite diversity” of opinions and the “infinite combination” of interactions is what drives us, no? That sharing of knowledge can be done through words or pictures, and we don’t even have to like the particular form by which an insight is transmitted, to profit from it. So, of course you are right in celebrating the wonderful diversity in tarot decks (and in Tarot in general), but was that ever in question? My personal hope is that it wasn’t. And allow me to celebrate it too - for many reasons! Silvia

Grizabella	29 Oct 2004
Yeehaw! (that's an obscure, little-known tarot term) I can now come out of the closet and admit that Waking the Wild Spirit is the tarot of my dreams! I've kind of been afraid to bring it up, to tell you the truth. I recently got this deck in a trade with Meewah and all my other decks pale in comparison. I've read reviews that criticize and say it's not really tarot, the book is arrogant, too many changed card meanings, and other negative comments, but I'm enchanted by the deck and the book and I don't have a single thing negative I can say about it. I love tarot, but with this deck, it comes alive for me in a whole new dimension. My other decks are RW, Ancestral Path (love the art), Buckland, and Haindl. I've had other decks but those are the ones I won't part with. The Wild Spirit, though, just totally brought me alive----I've dreamed it just about every night since I got it, I've had absolutely amazing readings with it, and I expect to have a very long and rewarding relationship with it. My opinion is that if you have a deck that tickles your spirit and makes your soul sing, then use it proudly. Never mind that to a tarot elitist it might seem like it's not "really" tarot. Thanks for your eloquently worded post, Lee. And I want to add that there's nothing wrong with being a tarot elitist, either. If that's what's most meaningful to you, then I think that's wonderful, too. I read all the posts about the classic decks with a lot of interest, even though I don't totally get it sometimes.

Lee	29 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Lyric Yeehaw! (that's an obscure, little-known tarot term) I can now come out of the closet and admit that Waking the Wild Spirit is the tarot of my dreams! That's wonderful, Lyric! That's exactly what I'm talking about. Just to clarify, I have nothing against people having or expressing negative views about decks (especially since I wrote one of those negative reviews of the Wild Spirit, LOL!). I don't think there's anything wrong with saying "I don't like such-and-such a deck, and here's why." I just become sad when people start saying, "I don't like such-and-such a deck and people who do like it aren't serious about tarot," "are lazy," etc., etc., or some such other ridiculous statement. Also, I have nothing against exclusivity. Whatever floats one's boat. And I love the classic decks too. I just don't like it when someone looks down their nose at others who don't share their views. -- Lee

raeanne	29 Oct 2004
Hi Lee, I have been a Star Trek fan for….well, for lots of years. IDIC has been a very real concept that I have tried to live by. I remember when I first heard Spock explain the Vulcan concept of Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combination. I loved it! Roddenberry was definitely a man ahead of his time. I even have a very nice IDIC pin that I wear. Yes, IDIC applies to Tarot. And religion. And culture. And lifestyle. And…….

Cerulean	29 Oct 2004
Thanks Lee and others, it makes me smile to think others believe these positive affirmations. Cerulean

Grizabella	29 Oct 2004
I had to laugh when you said you were one who wrote a negative piece on the Wild Spirit. I didn't know that. It's probably a good thing I didn't know or I'd still be hiding in the closet.

Imagemaker	29 Oct 2004
Quote: It's probably a good thing I didn't know or I'd still be hiding in the closet. I'm so glad you spoke your truth about the deck, it clearly "awoke" your spirit, which is a wonderful thing. Fearing the opinions of others can completely deaden our journey through life, and for what--comments on a screen? I'm glad you're out of the closet, it gets so stuffy and hard to breathe in there! (going off to look for images of the Wild Spirit deck)

Alta	29 Oct 2004
I too cringe when I see comments that modern decks are worthless. Modern decks express the archetypes through the spirit of the times. People can relate to them and the themes as old as man shine through.

rabble	29 Oct 2004
very well said :) I'm firmly of the opinion that if it speaks to you, listen! no matter when it was designed/printed/made/whatevered! I do not have one of the "traditional" decks myself. Not one. But the decks I do have I love! live long and prosper, Lee.

firemaiden	29 Oct 2004
I'm happy to see you expressing yourself so freely too, Lee. :D I happened to come across your deck today in a very prominent bookstore in Berkeley, (which doesn't normally carry tarot decks) and I felt proud to see it there, and to think, I know that creator! I have always loved lo Scarabeo decks, and they make up the preponderance of my collection. If it were not for that very same "commercial" aspect - I might never have gotten interested in tarot. The pretty pictures, the elves and fairies, and bright colours were what drew me in. It was the "hook", and they communicated the "magical spirit" to me. Perhaps one day I will passionately champion historical purety, (and I do think nobody should listen to music written after 1950...JUST KIDDING)(sort of), but for now, I'd love to take out stock in Lo Scarabeo.

lark	30 Oct 2004
Even though there are decks I do not like and I may express my negative opinion about, when I hear someone talk with love and enthusiasm about that deck being their favorite I feel so happy for them... And glad that they found a deck that made a difference in their life.

Moonbow*	30 Oct 2004
Wonderful post Lee! I'm a firm believer in reading all types of decks as long as they appeal to the reader. I will try my hand and Marseilles, Thoth and RWS plus everything in between and Oracles. It just depends what speaks to me at the time and what I feel like doing. I will chop and change from the Fae to Marseilles, Thoth to Lenormand depending on how I feel. I have my likes and dislikes but I would never knock anybody else for what they feel works for them. If everyone here read with the same deck, this would be a very boring and staid site!

Diana	30 Oct 2004
Well said Lee!!! And thank the tarot gods that members such as you describe in your first paragraph are few and far between and that their views can get therefore get lost in the infinite diversity in infinite combinations of all the other 1000s of posts on Aeclectic which celebrate what you love so much. No supper for those silly members who dare voice their minority opinions and make people cringe! Definitely no supper! And no chocolate biscuits either! :D :D :D (But Lee: I have never seen a post which criticises the actual Members who buy these decks. Are you sure of your facts? Also, I'm not sure that their posts go unchallenged because of the reason you put forward. I think most people just think that their posts are not worth answering because they are of such a minority opinion. The minority usually don't get much attention paid to them. That's the way the cookie crumbles and how life is. They are doomed to be hidden in the shadows.)

TemperanceAngel	30 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Lee I'm not posting this to pick a fight with people. I guess I'm just trying to say that it's okay to buy modern decks, it's okay to enjoy them. It's okay to collect them and let them pile up on your bookshelves. It's okay to decide for yourself whether to read constantly with them, or to read sometimes with them, or to use them for meditation or study, or to take them out once in a while to look at them, or to look at them once and put them away without taking them out again. It's okay to jump from deck to deck, choosing whichever deck fits your mood at the moment. It's okay to read accompanying books. It's okay not to read them. It's okay to read an accompanying book and follow it to the letter. It's okay to read it and take what's valuable and leave the rest. It's okay to design one's own deck, whether it gets published or not. It's okay to publish it yourself... or not. What a post Lee, I love it :D :D :D Well said you, and I really like your deck too, I only discovered it this week. As someone who used to live with four gay guys and one gay girl (crazy, CRAZY house that one!) I can really relate to your deck :)

Lee	30 Oct 2004
Diana, you have a PM! :) -- Lee

Neville Surrell	30 Oct 2004
In the respect of newer decks I would suggest that the increasing use of pictoral Minor Arcana is really helpful. Where as some of the Arcane Decks with non pictoral Minor Arcana requires a good memory especially from a Novices point of view. See ya Neville

darwinia	30 Oct 2004
I respect your opinion Lee, even if negative in reviews, because it's obvious you work with the decks and really try to formulate your opinion through experience rather than a quick 30 minute browse and bitch as some reviewers do. I recently saw someone here disparaging "new age" decks that weren't following the historical occult pattern. The endless dance of reason again, and this comment makes the person look narrow-minded and incapable of original thought and exploring life. I respect artists who can make their own patterns, it is a rare property. Many new decks are copied or incomprehensible junk, but many others aren't. A capable artist combines their own system and experience and creates a unique, understandable pattern that is not a copycat rendition. These artists are observable if you refuse to limit your mind. Some people like to make a joke of imposing their limitations and bias, but I don't get the joke, such behaviour is humorless, particularly when it forms minor cliques of middle-aged teenage bullies who browbeat others continually with tasteless games. That is not funny, it is immature and indicative of a desperate need to follow the crowd and be "somebody." The real gift to being a presence in the world is to forge a new way, regardless of what other people think. Ability, truth, ethics, intellect, innovation, imagination, creativity, and talent are not based on the degree of attention they engender. Fame is irrelevant, many creators never explain themselves or seek attention, they influence by action and commitment regardless. Those are the people that I respect, the people that make a difference, the people who think for themselves. And if they create a new tarot deck, I'm THERE, because the world of possibilities will attend me.

Vilyariel	30 Oct 2004
well said, darwina. I think that creating tarot is a very draining and time consuming process, people pour their souls into it, as you all have done when creating your own decks. How would it feel if you'd accomplished a lifes dream by having your deck published, only to find that tarot readers were rubbishing your deck? art is art. tarot is art. art is always going to be criticised. but you have to look at it from the perspective of the artist. art is like the visual representation of a part of someone. art is very personal. art lets people express themselves in a way that a person cannot usually do. It's someone's interpretation of a subject. I'm a bit of an artist myself, and at some of my classes, it bothers me so much when the teacher comes over and starts actually drawing for me. The same way that it annoys me when a non-artist starts criticising something i've done [not in a constructive way, but a destructive way]. and i feel that alot of people [not necessarily on this forum, because most of you understand what i mean]

Rusty Neon	30 Oct 2004
What a wonderful post and thread, Lee. Thanks. This thread should be make into a stickie. I'm rating it with maximum stars.

jmd	30 Oct 2004
I have just read through the whole thread, and agree that indeed it is wonderful to celebrate the diverse and broad range in which Tarot has permitted and directed a wonderful diversity of artistic expression within the general framework it provides. Where we may differ is certainly not within the broad central infinite diversity for Tarot, but at the edges in determining whether a particular deck (irrespective as to how wonderful and artisitically brilliant it may be) is Tarot. Examples include those decks which deviate significantly from being a 78 card deck with the basic structure which makes Tarot Tarot. To talk analogically, there is an infinite variety of Roses possible, without thereby making each wonderful flower a Rose. Some may even experiment with genetic modifications to a Rose, and perhaps eventually even create a most beautiful hybrid - thereby a flower maintaining a connection to the Rose, without itself being a one. But then, I suspect most (but perhaps not all) tend to agree that Tarot does indeed have infinite beauty and provides for such diverse and depth of interest and artistic insight and clear framework as to be a wonderfully rich blessing indeed.

Woof	30 Oct 2004
Lee; May you live long and prosper! And forever add your voice to this forum! Woof Been a Trekkie since I was 6 years old and watched the original series at grandma's house!

Fulgour	31 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Lee ... to quote Gene Rodenberry. "The glory of creation is in its infinite diversity." Dr. Miranda Jones "And in the way our differences combine to create meaning and beauty." Mr. Spock Is There in Truth No Beauty? StarDate 5630.8 Quote: Originally posted by raeanne Roddenberry was definitely a man ahead of his time. Gene Roddenberry August 19, 1921 ~ October 24, 1991 :)

Strange2	31 Oct 2004
Great thread, Lee! One of the primary ongoing attractions of Tarot for me is indeed the creative diversity that it engenders. Through both the diverse and similar creations of Tarot artists, they blaze new paths for me to explore, and/or keep well-traveled paths open and vital. Like viewing the Sun through a series of stained glass windows, each deck and card filters and embellishes the light, yet the source of the Light is the same One for All. We may view the windows (decks, cards) from different angles, yet the core images and the Light Source are unchanged. The beauty of Tarot is that the viewer can have different perceptions or vantage points, while the shining images of the Tarot channel the way to a unifying glow.

tmgrl2	31 Oct 2004
[/size] And take a bow, Lee. Your deck is quite exquisite...I have been following the Tarot of Dreams as well..... If one were to just browse through the list of decks on the "deck" page at AT...and look at samples, it is quite awesome. Something for everyone. We all have our own styles of reading and our own tastes in designs and traditions. Personally, I am finding that I am somewhat eclectic (heheheh) I am learning to read with the decks I use the most. I love the Marseille decks, but find that I often read with the Morgan-Greer and love the Scapini and the Gilded as well as many others that I own. Some that I own I just haven't used yet, but intend to use, when I have the time. I buy them because they are beautiful and because I feel I would read with them. Some I may never use to read with, but they are so lovely, I want to own them. terri

shelikes2read	31 Oct 2004
Agreed... my take on the various decks (and everything else, from music to painting to sculpting to you-name-it) is that "I know what speaks to me -- and I also know that I 'speak' my own dialect sometimes, so what I like may or may not be popular with other people. And even if something doesn't speak to ME, maybe it does resonate with someone else". So I basically take the stance that the world won't come to an end if other people don't share my high opinions of whatever it is that I like. And all I look for is for mutual respect between myself and anyone else regarding what we might or might not like. If I like one thing, and they like another, that's great. I won't hit them over the head with my favorite things, or declare what they like to be worthless, if they promise to treat my preferences the same way. And believe me, this goes tenfold for my take on the various Tarot decks. I had NO IDEA until I started actively looking for Tarot-related info online a few months ago just how many decks there are! It'd been years since I set eyes on a Tarot catalog (and I think it was only comprised of decks sold by US Games), and even THEN I thought there was a tremendous variety of decks. Well, between the 1980s and now, there appear to have been about a zillion MORE new decks published. There is no way in heck that every one of those decks is going to click with every person that views them. But I bet that they'll all give at least SOME people that "Aha!" reaction, and I am all for seeing those people invest in those decks. My perception of working with a Tarot deck is that it's a "teamwork" relationship between the reader and the deck. Obviously, the more fluently the reader and the deck speak one another's dialect, the clearer and more accurate the readings will be. Three cheers for IDIC :)!

Mesara	31 Oct 2004
Very well said Lee. Thank you.

Lee	31 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by jmd Where we may differ is certainly not within the broad central infinite diversity for Tarot, but at the edges in determining whether a particular deck (irrespective as to how wonderful and artisitically brilliant it may be) is Tarot. I certainly agree that we may differ. In fact, I love it that we may differ. :) Imagine what life would be like if we could not differ! -- Lee

Satori	03 Nov 2004
I have a rock collection on my mantle, which is really a pie shelf, but since no pies have ever graced it's bluestone hardness it is a mantle. (When is a pie shelf not a pie shelf?) One of the rocks is very unusual. It is curved, has a flat bottom, and is about two inches wide at the base, triangular. I call it the Dragon's Tooth. I look at the rock and see a Dragon's Tooth. I don't know why I even call it a rock. It stands about 5 inches tall. It is a Tooth. A Dragon's Tooth. But other people come here and see my triangle rock collection (rocks shaped like triangles...When is a rock a triangle and not a rock? When a rock is a triangle and a rock, is it something other than a rock?) and they see my Dragon's Tooth and they say, "What an unusual rock!" My own experience of rocks is what matters to me. Sometimes if I try to talk to other people about it they just don't get it. They say, "It's just a rock." They think I have too many rocks. But I have tiny small, smooth white rocks. And I have these really nice, flat smooth grey rocks. I have real cobblestones. Oh and I have this one triangle rock that has a white back, a black face, and a white bent stripe across the black face that looks like two seagulls, wing to wing, flying. I love that one. :) I have another rock that is really special. My daughter found it. She handed it to me after we got out of the car at her dance class. She picked it up out of the gravel and handed it to me and said, "Here Mummy. For your collection. Look, one side is gold." And sure enough, one side was golden. I looked down on the ground, and the yellow spray-painted lines that separate the cars from each other in the parking lot had a medium sized hole in the golden color about the size of the rock in my hand. I looked back at my daughter. There was really nothing very attractive about the rock in my hand, but there was my girl, dressed in pink tights, pink ballerina skirt and a big smile as she looked up at me. That's when I knew I had a bit of treasure. I don't know about you, but if anybody ever tells me that my golden rock doesn't fit in with the rest of my collection I'm gonna tell 'em they might need to get their eyes checked.

rabble	03 Nov 2004
Quote: Originally posted by elf It is a Tooth. I have a rock that's a tooth too. But mine is citrine. I also have an amethyst castle on a craggy rock. I also have little lumps of gravel my grand-daughter gave me. She collects rocks too. We go to the crystal shop and she'll choose one, and I get it for her. The little stones she gives me are as special as your treasure too, elf, I imagine :)

darwinia	03 Nov 2004
And I have a piece of slag I picked up near the bus depot in Sudbury, Ontario that looks like a Madonna. I call her The Slag Heap Madonna and she sits on my computer desk. Loved your post Elf. I DO think it highlights the fact that some people have the gift of vision in life and others don't. Exactly the phrase I would apply to how people see infinity and infinite possibilities in tarot. You either get it or you don't.

Satori	03 Nov 2004
Quote: Originally posted by darwinia I call her The Slag Heap Madonna and she sits on my computer desk. :) I think that I may be on a new quest. I suddenly have a huge desire for my very own Slag Heap Madonna. And yes Darwinia, I'm glad you could see through all the minerals to what I was saying. You either get it or you don't. Amen. Awomen. Ahem....

rosyelf	03 Nov 2004
Lee, I agree with you ! I believe the only rule worth adhering to with Tarot is the rule that says treat the cards with respect and people ditto. Also, I'm a rather eclectic person, as anyone who's glanced over my Tarot and oracle collection recently will testify :). I love the Soprafino and I love the Gothic. I'm very taken with Egyptian decks these days but I also owe a great debt to various Celtic decks. And so on. It's not AND/OR, it's AND AND. What I look at/meditate on/read with at any given point depends on mood. Sometimes I want to smile-Bohemian Cats, take a bow !-other times I want a deep answer on a particularly complicated set of circumstances-in these cases, I probably use the Haindl. (That's not to say, the Bohemian Cats are lightweight-I believe that a good Tarot deck can serve various purposes.) Diversity, I love it. :) Also, of course it's fine to be devoted to one particular deck. It's just the generalizing, proselytising (spelling ?) and dismissive attitudes about other folk's preferences that I find impossible to swallow. Relax, guys, there's room enough for everybody. :)

Lee	03 Nov 2004
Quote: Originally posted by rosyelf It's not AND/OR, it's AND AND. Perfectly put! :) -- Lee

Diana	03 Nov 2004
I suppose in the end it boils down to what some people think the Tarot is and what other people think Tarot is. There seem to be different views about this question, and I do believe after having seen this topic discussed time and time again on Aeclectic, that up to now never the twain have met. Because quite simply some people see an And/Or, and others see an And/And, and others may seem something else, an Or/Or perhaps. I frequently get the impression that people talk at cross-purposes because of what they believe Tarot is. It's like they're talking sometimes of two completely different things.

earthlady	03 Nov 2004
You go, Lee!

Diana	06 Nov 2004
I was thinking the other day, that amongst the Infinite Diversity which I see celebrated in this thread, creeps in unfortunately and inevitably, at the same time, A Lot Of Mediocrity . But I suppose it is the same in any field.... whether it be art, science, music, literature, etc. It is up to the User and the Student to be very vigilant and not allow themselves to be duped. When I see MTV video-clips (I watch these sometimes for my instruction, just as I watch the Jerry Springer show for my instruction too - I would NOT call it pleasure), I think often: "And they actually call this music.... and I bet you that some people even BELIEVE it is music". Out of 20 video-clips, I sometimes (but rarely) catch a glimpse of something that could be called music... and that makes me even more eager to go and hunt for the real thing. So I suppose that the Mediocrity which is so often glaring in the Infinite Diversity, pushes us to seek for something greater, and so therefore this can be counted as a blessing and therefore can be celebrated too. :)

Fulgour	06 Nov 2004
If someone were to commission a professional artist to produce seventy-eight original pieces, to pay them to create works from scratch, even if only based on a known theme as versions, it would not be unreasonable for the fee to be up to $11,700. That's an entirely different animal than someone doing the same thing on their own, as an expression of love...

RedMaple	06 Nov 2004
I agree with the infinite diversity, I want to see more, and I don't mind the mediocrity of some decks. I might not want to have them myself, but it is the effort of the entire community that will help to create the masterpieces and classics from this very fertile time for Tarot. What I do object to, and I have to own up to this, as I'm sure some of you have seen my posts about Native American decks on other forums, is a dislike for decks that reinforce stereotypes rather than helping to expand consciousness. This goes for all art, as far as I'm concerned, not just Tarot. I believe it's important to struggle to tell the truth in our images and stories. I think one reason Lee's deck is important and beautiful is because he tells the truth about gay men's experience, instead of relying on the easy stereotypes the media gives us. I hope that we can continue to have critical discussions about Tarot decks, as we would about books, literature, theatre, or art, and that we can be self-critical as a community so that Tarot can continue to grow and breathe. RedMaple

WolfSpirit	07 Nov 2004
Fulgour wrote: If someone were to commission a professional artist to produce seventy-eight original pieces , to pay them to create works from scratch, even if only based on a known theme as versions , it would not be unreasonable for the fee to be up to $11,700 . That's an entirely different animal than someone doing the same thing on their own, as an expression of love... Yes...some of the decks I have I admire for the art, but that does not mean I can read with them. Even if the artist is a tarot lover himself, that does not mean he will come up with a deck I can read with, maybe because he sees the meaning too positive/too negative/or just too limited for me. Instead of a card with infinite possibilities, he shows me his version of what the card means. I treat these decks more as pieces of art rather than reading decks, but I still love them. They may work for me to use in meditation as well :)

Tarot Sparrow	07 Nov 2004
Amen!

Fulgour	07 Nov 2004
WolfSpirit wrote: Yes...some of the decks I have I admire for the art, but that does not mean I can read with them. Even if the artist is a tarot lover himself, that does not mean he will come up with a deck I can read with, maybe because he sees the meaning too positive/too negative/or just too limited for me. Instead of a card with infinite possibilities, he shows me his version of what the card means. I treat these decks more as pieces of art rather than reading decks, but I still love them. They may work for me to use in meditation as well :) I hope that anyone who feels the desire to create their own cards, for personal reasons, or even with dreams of publishing the deck, would never feel discouraged because they fear public criticism. My hope was to express something of the difference between decks with an aesthetic brilliance, a very accomplished look, and decks, or even just a single card now and then drawn by someone not mainly concerned with creating a masterpiece, but looking into their hearts and giving life to the images they find there, however simplistic or amateurish the final results. There is a special sense of awe to be found when contemplating the finished work of a skilled and devoted artist, especially in a Tarot...

Lee	08 Nov 2004
RedMaple wrote: I hope that we can continue to have critical discussions about Tarot decks, as we would about books, literature, theatre, or art, and that we can be self-critical as a community so that Tarot can continue to grow and breathe. I quite agree with this, as long as we try to remember to criticize the deck and not the user of the deck. -- Lee

Lee	10 Nov 2004
Diana wrote: I was thinking the other day, that amongst the Infinite Diversity which I see celebrated in this thread, creeps in unfortunately and inevitably, at the same time, A Lot Of Mediocrity . I agree with this, but I don't think anyone would really argue with this. I and others have posted several statements in this thread to the effect that we should certainly have preferences and be critical of what we don't like. I think the key to what I'm saying is that if person A has preferences, and person B has different preferences, person A should try not to assume that their own preferences are correct for everybody while B's preferences are incorrect. Diana wrote: It is up to the User and the Student to be very vigilant and not allow themselves to be duped. This, I am not sure I agree with. Diana, if you're saying there's one true path for everyone and those who don't follow it are being duped, then I vehemently disagree. If you're saying everyone has their own path which they should remain true to, then I wholeheartedly agree with you. -- Lee

Diana	10 Nov 2004
Lee wrote: This, I am not sure I agree with. Diana, if you're saying there's one true path for everyone and those who don't follow it are being duped, then I vehemently disagree. If you're saying everyone has their own path which they should remain true to, then I wholeheartedly agree with you. As long as they are sure that it is their own path. Trouble is, in all matters of spirituality and esoteric matters, there can be unscrupulous people. Or misguided people, which is probably worse in the long run. If a friend, or my son, or a family member, decided to join the Raelist "religion", I would most definitely do everything in my power to get them off that path, as I would if they decided to become a Scientologist. I would not just stand back and say "go your own path, baby!" If the Golden Dawn path is the right one for someone... all well and good. I have no arguments with that. But if they follow it blindly, without knowing exactly what they are following, there is a danger they are not following their right path and will end up lost. If someone wants to follow Crowleyism more or less understanding what they're getting themselves into, then that's just fine too. It's not the mediocrity that can be dangerous, actually. Mediocrity comes and goes and lasts often only a season. It's a pity... but perhaps it's not really DANGEROUS.

Lee	10 Nov 2004
Diana wrote: If the Golden Dawn path is the right one for someone... all well and good. I have no arguments with that. But if they follow it blindly, without knowing exactly what they are following, there is a danger they are not following their right path and will end up lost. If someone wants to follow Crowleyism more or less understanding what they're getting themselves into, then that's just fine too. I agree! I wonder, though, if we can use this same analogy for people who don't use tarot as a spiritual path. I realize there are many people who do, but there are also many who don't. For example, if someone uses tarot by laying out cards in order to learn more about themselves and their lives by using the cards to see what associations can be touched off or what insights may be gained, completely apart from any metaphysical or esoteric component, then it seems to me that the scrupulousness or lack thereof of the deck's creators, or the specific esoteric path the creators may have been following, wouldn't be a factor. In that case, the best deck would be the one which the reader at that moment feels is the most evocative or helpful or useful. -- Lee

jmd	10 Nov 2004
Lee's last point raises somewhat questions about the very nature of the world. If the world is no more than as a physicalist may describe it, than possibly (subject to the evocativeness or helpfulness or usefulness not leading to acts we would each consider abhorent) 'the best deck would be the one which the reader at that moment feels is the most evocative or helpful or useful'. The world, however, may have a fundamental spiritual underpinning. If that is the case, then even subtle variations may have certain repercussions which subtly alters the very way we interact, view the world, open or close ourselves of, etc.. In that case, imagery - and significantly Tarot imagery - may indeed have different influence, and may either assist or stiffle in one's own spiritual path. In each and every deck there are various elements at play - which of course includes the designer's and the artist's creative impulse - as well as other forces and impulses (social, political, and spiritual) playing themselves into the very being and design of the deck. Some may of course not accept such view. If it is the case, however, then our deliberations need to consider those essentially spiritual impulses.

Fulgour	12 Nov 2004
I wonder if, for copyright purposes, there is a legal definition of Tarot for contracts?

full deck	12 Nov 2004
Fulgour wrote: I wonder if, for copyright purposes, there is a legal definition of Tarot for contracts? You are killing me . . . :-) I would add, on a more serious note, it is good to have this community to discuss and knock around ideas and to see which ones have merit and which ones are not quite realized. It has certainly helped me very much!

Lee	13 Nov 2004
jmd wrote: The world, however, may have a fundamental spiritual underpinning. If that is the case, then even subtle variations may have certain repercussions which subtly alters the very way we interact, view the world, open or close ourselves of, etc.. In that case, imagery - and significantly Tarot imagery - may indeed have different influence, and may either assist or stiffle in one's own spiritual path. Let's imagine two people -- person A and person B. Person A is interested in Crowley and Thelema. I agree with Diana that it behooves this person to learn as much as they can, and read not only Crowley's writings but also writings about Crowley and Thelema, both admiring and critical, to get a balanced view of the subject. If this person wants to use the Thoth deck, they will probably want to read Crowley's own book on the subject. Person B is someone who knows nothing about Crowley or Thelema, but who happens upon Crowley's Thoth deck and likes the images. Person B tries working with it and find that the images speak to him or her, that readings done with the Thoth go deeper than with other decks. For this person, I don't think it's at all necessary or required to learn more about Crowley or Thelema (although they may at some point find that they want to). They aren't using the deck as part of a particular esoteric path. While it's true that it may be possible in a theoretical sense that the world may be structured such that one particular deck will be more efficacious or "magical" than another deck, I must admit that I find it hard to imagine such a scenario being actually the case. It would require that the world would have had to have been created with such a strict set of rules that it seems unlikely (to me, anyway) that it would have gone unnoticed all this time that people live better lives by using one deck as opposed to another. By the way, for my hypothetical people A and B, I don't think person A is being any more "spiritual" than person B. I think they're both being spiritual in their own ways. I just wouldn't want anyone getting the impression that if one wants to be seriously spiritual, they must choose certain decks. In my opinion, it all depends on how a deck strikes you. I think the Halloween Tarot (which I don't have, by the way) could be used just as spiritually as the Marseilles or the Thoth. -- Lee

Lurea	15 Nov 2004
Lee wrote: While it's true that it may be possible in a theoretical sense that the world may be structured such that one particular deck will be more efficacious or "magical" than another deck, I must admit that I find it hard to imagine such a scenario being actually the case. It would require that the world would have had to have been created with such a strict set of rules that it seems unlikely (to me, anyway) that it would have gone unnoticed all this time that people live better lives by using one deck as opposed to another. -- Lee Amen, Lee, and good point! In my magical/spiritual tradition, we are taught that power resides within ourselves and that the tools we use, are tools only, and not powerful in and of themselves. They may contain power but only the power, that I, the Seeker, place within them. I am aware of certain traditions who disagree. I was acquainted with a ceremonial magician who believed that power was inherent within certain forms: a word-perfect incantation, a certain type of image, and he was horrified by my more laissez-faire approach! :) I trust my inner bell to guide me to the tools and items appropriate for me, and so far, it hasn't let me down. :D

The Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations thread was originally posted on 29 Oct 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.