numerology and court cards,

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 21 Oct 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

HOLMES	21 Oct 2004
i am reworking an earlier system of numerology assocations that appareently after i got the book of tarot constellations by mary k greer builds on that idea but that is just half the idea. (you can find the beginning of in some others threads oh about a year ago now eheh) one thing that bugged me was i could never get the court cards to relate numerology,, as they got no numbers. (yes yes virgo ) at first it was conviernt to relate the courts cards according to modiffer system, king spark, queen formation , knight creation, page manfiestion or something along those lines (have't used it in months ) then i been using the qabalistic assoctions to define them yet for this book title to work, i would like to stay away from qabbala assocotions for now. in mary k greer book the tarot court, she doenst give any except to do a numerical analysis of the court cards based on the number of them. so she arrives at tower,chariot,magican lovers, yet she uses these to describe the court cards in general.(how they are court cards instead of using one to describe the king as such ) i was tinkering with the idea of using the astrology 2,3,10 for queen and adding them and reducing them.(again that would add astrology which i didnt' want to do but i went throught with the idea ) the queen and knight both add up to 15. i said sheesh. thanks a lot then i was going to make them 2,3, 6 and 10 like the qabbalah spheres hint at .. but i said no ,, can't be qabbalah in here . now those i spoke two said page, knight, queen king,, can either be 1,2,3,4 or 11,12,13,14 as i looked at this justice, hanged man, death temperance paged, knight , queen , king magican, high priestress, emperess, emperor i said to myself now that doens't work, , it was high priestress, magican queen king,, and how can the queen be about death ? (i was only thinking of old school thought ) then i remembered some of that jungian philosphy i was studying, and i said OF COURSE. the page is both magican and justice, the knight is both hanged man and high priestress, the queen is both death and emperess, the king is both emperor and temperance, nah cant' be,, can it ? (this is all based on english numerology and english ordering of the major arcana, from 0 to 21.

HOLMES	21 Oct 2004
justice, hanged man, death temperance paged, knight , queen , king magican, high priestress, emperess, emperor the page is both 1, and 11 after ten , there comes 11,12,13,14 if we stick to the number order. 11,12,13,13 take away ten equals 1,2,3,4 and i consider ten to be 1 plus 0, while 11 is 1 plus 1, twelive is 1 plus 2, so it makes sense. ( i admit it might be forced ) . so what does it mean if page has justice and magican and what sense does it make ? well first of all , giving that male has female and female has male as their innerselves and the page as young female would be closer to her male innerself giving that she would be the magican. as well as justice is a bit harder to figure out as i am thinking this as i write this :) justice has to do with wanting to be fair and nice. and i am not thinking teenagers,, but more of the little girl archtype who care about things. the knight while he is said to be young man, perhaps due to the male nature we do not mature as fast as females (we know that is true puberty as well eh ) he would have to deal with his innerself the highpriestress and see it as a strenght and not a weakness. then he would have to make due with his hangedman energies that would be the sacfrice that he must make in his live to build a family , make a home (ideally and yes using old medevil mentally or at least 1800s mentallity eheh as it is based on old archtypes ) the queen having to deal with the emperess is now able to embrace her full feminity having realize male energy in this world is their secret strength , and death is their strenght. they are the power from which all life enters this world after their transformation. (without woman to give birth , their would be no recairnation eh, ) the kings having become the emperor are indeed their full male self , yet the image is while females embrace theri magican energies (the power behind the man ) the male denies their female self (a man doens't cry belief ) and that leaves us with the temperance card,, the man is still trying to balance out his life and find peace with himself. and all this is manifested in the four spiritual worlds. numerology speaking. so please any thoughts ? i am going to bed and looking for discussions

Tarot Sparrow	21 Oct 2004
I think that's a very interesting idea, Holmes. To me it does make sense much in the same way you described it, with two corresponding court cards for each major. It's an interesting new way to look at it. Are you just trying to figure out in this sense, how to view the court cards as a whole, rather than interpret them individually? And how would one do that with this method I wonder...

maria42airam	21 Oct 2004
This is something that I've been studying myself. It started because I'm tracking my daily draw and I am tracking the occurrences by element and number. I didn't know how to count the court cards. I've read a few different approaches in books, but the one that makes sense to me is: King = 13 (1+3=4) Emperor, Death (active) Queen = 12 (1+2=3) Empress, Hanged Man, The World (passive) Knight = 14 (1+4=5) Hierophant, Temperance * I see the Knights as initiates of a group and possessing both positive and negative aspects of their suit. Joan Bunning says for each Knight that if their energy is present, there is a need for balance. Page = 11, (1+1=2) High Priestess, Justice, Judgement * The page is said to be a messenger I have not seen a book yet that had this order, but it is the one that "feels" right to me.

Rusty Neon	21 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by maria42airam I have not seen a book yet that had this order, but it is the one that "feels" right to me. Page, Queen, King, Knight I've seen this order used in Jodorowsky's book on the Marseille deck and in Corinne Morel's book on the Marseille: _Le Guide du Tarot: Tome I - Les Arcanes mineurs_.

HOLMES	21 Oct 2004
I think that's a very interesting idea, Holmes. To me it does make sense much in the same way you described it, with two corresponding court cards for each major. It's an interesting new way to look at it. Are you just trying to figure out in this sense, how to view the court cards as a whole, rather than interpret them individually? And how would one do that with this method I wonder... i been thinking about this all day and anticpating the feedback. it is reversed though,, it would be for one page , two major arcana cards as opposed to page and knight to one major arcana card. as well as the benefit would be (at least the way i am going to approach it ) is to see for example the page, magican as it relates to the page,, then justice as it relates to the page and how the magican and justice both relate to the page as an ideal. then one would take the information and relate to the physical pratical, emotioanal feeling, mental strifeful, spiritual social world. so by essence a magican and justice would have four court cards related to them,, all pages . much like how the constellation of destiny approach works. yet i see it as a bigger circle. the idea wouldnt' be to stick to the system rigidly but the information would be in your subconscious memory as well as there for when you need to call upon it when a court card stumps you .

HOLMES	21 Oct 2004
This is something that I've been studying myself. It started because I'm tracking my daily draw and I am tracking the occurrences by element and number. I didn't know how to count the court cards. I've read a few different approaches in books, but the one that makes sense to me is: King = 13 (1+3=4) Emperor, Death (active) Queen = 12 (1+2=3) Empress, Hanged Man, The World (passive) Knight = 14 (1+4=5) Hierophant, Temperance * I see the Knights as initiates of a group and possessing both positive and negative aspects of their suit. Joan Bunning says for each Knight that if their energy is present, there is a need for balance. Page = 11, (1+1=2) High Priestess, Justice, Judgement * The page is said to be a messenger I have not seen a book yet that had this order, but it is the one that "feels" right to me. that sounds to me to be almost a crowley approach except as i think it goes for crowley is princess(page), king, queen prince(knight ) the beuty of this system is it woud work with crowley assocations just the adjustments have to be made, as well as your system that you use as well. the only concern i would have initally would be it would seem to be no balance in the sense of female, female , male, male,, yet who is to say which comes first. i was useing the customary ordering that comes with the waite.. as long as it fits within the number system it will work :) example i couldn't see how a court card could be the sun ,, or the moon,

witchywomyn	22 Oct 2004
Hi, I've been applying numerology to my spreads for years. In my personal system (someone may have written on it too but I havent seen anything). Since each suit has 10 cards I have always seen the: Pages as 11 - reducing to 2 with qualities from Justice, the HP and of course the Magician (because how can you overlook those two 1's) Knights as 12 - reducing to 3 - Hanged Man, Empress and both qualities from the Magician and the HP Queens as 13 - reducing to 4 - Death, Emperor, Magician and the Empress Kings as 14 - reducing to 5 - Temperance, Hierophant, Magician and Emperor Additionally, I often see qualities of the Wheel in all the courts because numerically 10+1, 10+2, etc.

The numerology and court cards, thread was originally posted on 21 Oct 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.