Ok, now I'm mad.... "Tarot cards open you to demon possession"

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 15 Oct 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Alissa	15 Oct 2004
Last night I was up, and listening to Coast to Coast AM with George Noory, and their guest was a "demonologist, Dave Considine, the founder of Phantasm Psychic Research." I only caught the first 20 minutes of his interview, which was sort of interesting to listen to... until he done went and pissed me off. He was asked what can people do to keep themselves protected from demon possession. The man said, "Don't open yourself to spiritual communication! Don't use Ouija boards, or Tarot cards, or anything that allows for divination. Any time a person opens themselves to the act of divination, they open themselves to demonic possession." And I just about went through the roof.... Perhaps it was the guy's self-proclaimed Christian ideology speaking. BUT WHAT KINDA COCKAMAMMY HORSECRAP IS THAT??? I don't even know which argument to start with in defense of such a ludicrous statement... there are just so *many* ways to cut such a ridiculous statement as that to shreds. }) If it weren't the middle of the night, and I weren't trying to go to sleep instead of wake up and get angry and defend Tarot, I would have called in and let him have it. I laid there instead and thought, "I'm gonna go tell EVERYONE at Aeclectic about this tomorrow!" Grrrrrrrrrr.... On the good side, for those who might be interested, Doreen Virtue is going to be on next week, I see, as well as Deepak Chopra.

floracove	15 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Alissa "Don't open yourself to spiritual communication!" phhht... What type remark is that to begin with? Don't open yourself up to spiritual communication! sounds like he may need a spiritual ear cleaning.

Eco74	15 Oct 2004
Sheesh, talk about burning his own bridges. If we were to never open up to spiritual communication we could never meet God (or Godess) either so with that statement he really "pulled the rug out from under himself".. Even if he himself never opened up to direct communication with the spirit, he is clearly taking the word straight from someone who has (be it first, second, third or so hand). How else would they "know"? But then, a "clean mind" such as a christian is out of range for that sort of thing automatically just by sheer belief since Jesus is in their heart making them safe from demon possession... - or so I've heard. ;)

Alissa	15 Oct 2004
flora and Eco, uh huh!!!! Exactly! I was thinking, what a tragic, empty life you must live if you don't have any form of spiritual communication. I would have brought up "angels" if I had called, and asked him specifically if he believed in angels, as well as demons (which he would say yes, I'm sure, since he talked of his Christian foundation for his demonology work). And then I would have asked him if speaking to one's guardian angel wasn't "spiritual communication?" And he would have said yes, I guess. I'll just stop, although I could just keep going and going with my hypothetical fight... the arguments in my head are endless to something as nonsensical a statement as he made. I can think of many different debate avenues to take.

September Pixie	15 Oct 2004
I actually feel very sorry for these people... *humpf* I couldn't agree more, what kind of life must they have if they have no real form of spiritual communication... SO does that mean if IE. I am a Christian, I cannot speak to God (praying, talking, pleading, praising) because that opens me up for demonic possession! EEK.. *rolls eyes* come on... I wish you had called in Alissa, what an interesting show it would have been ;)

Umbrae	15 Oct 2004
But – but – but – don’t you guys get it? We are all possessed by demons! I’m possessed by one who likes to dress in a pink tu-tu and be called Betty…or is it a Green Gargoyle type who likes to be called Gary. Mostly I’m possessed by a pretty normal type who dresses in Levi’s (see…very Elephas like) and sweatshirts, but looks pretty good in a suit and tie, who likes to be called Dan...very very scary (roflmao).

September Pixie	15 Oct 2004
ROFL Umbrae Well.. then I must be possessed by one that makes me spend every penny I earn on tarot... oooh scary ;)

floracove	15 Oct 2004
Well then.... I'm not even telling what i'm possessed by. Unless you consider the spirit that has a great love for my children and all sorts of people...

Alissa	15 Oct 2004
I don't want to imply that I think all Christians think this way, by any mean. I should be very clear about that. There are many Christians on our boards who use Tarot, and have a much better grasp of what the cards are REALLY about. I hope and pray they will teach, if only by example, others to open their viewpoints a little as well. But this guy was just plain narrow minded to make such sweeping statements, and to proclaim divination dangerous. How many references ARE there in the Bible about divination being used by God's prophets anyhow? Like, a zillion???

firemaiden	15 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Umbrae But – but – but – don’t you guys get it? We are all possessed by demons! I’m possessed by one who likes to dress in a pink tu-tu and be called Betty… This I gotta see :D :D

sagitarian	15 Oct 2004
Ignorance is Bliss (so some people say). What does this mean? Well, in this kind of context, (however, I wasn't listening to the show) if you don't get involved into anything that is um, divinatory, spiritual (other then church, the bible and Prayers), etc...then you don't "open" yourself to that energy. I don't know sis, I can see his point here. I'm not saying I agree, but being open to spirit communication, divination, and other visions, I'm definitely more aware of the darker sides of spiritual existences. And for me, it takes a little more then just believing in God to protect myself from them. Possession however, that I don't agree with. I don't think you automatically open yourself for possession by doing Tarot or learning how to communicate with your guides (or other spirits). I believe you may crack the door open just a bit, where the spirits see that you are openly communitive with them, but automatically opening yourself to possession, NO, I don't believe that. I think all he was trying to point out though, is the people that do get possessed by demons (more often then not) are those that are more open to spiritual communications other then just prayers to God or asking for guidance. People who are open to the idea of communication with spirits, divination, and other of the like interests are more likely (when doing something stupid and not knowing how to protect oneself) to be possessed by a demon. I don't know sis, not meaning to rock the boat here, but it's just what I see. I agree that just by doing tarot or whatever doesn't automatically open yourself to possession, but then again, he was trying to speak to an open wide audience and not knowing who was listening, perhaps he didn't want to give a lesson on the air about the correct way to communicate to spirits and the "wrong" way (or at least in accordance to what you are attempting to achieve by doing so in the first place). It seems to me his point was more, if you don't know what your doing, it's best not to mess with it, b/c you could open yourself to the dark side. As Umbrae once said "when your staring into the abyss, the abyss is staring back". That's a statement that I think about often! Sagitarian

DarkElectric	15 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by sagitarian As Umbrae once said "when your staring into the abyss, the abyss is staring back". That's a statement that I think about often! Sagitarian Wow, Nietzsche once said the same thing. So, this Dave Considine person is the founder of "Phantasm Psychic Research"? And what sort of demons has he opened himself up to, I wonder, by becoming a leading authority in an obviously credible, reputable institution such as this? Obviously he must be speaking from personal possesion experience. And this must be the way he can help all those poor benighted people out there solve their possession problems, Visa/Master Card acccepted. (Of course.) We all should consider this scarecrow to be outstanding in his field. I hope that people will use their good judgement and take the idiot with a grain of salt.

Alissa	15 Oct 2004
Quote: Wow, Nietszche once said the same thing. :D That's what I was thinking! However, I don't believe my sister sagitarian has read any Nietzsche, so I don't believe she knew the original source as some might. :) I hear you, sag. But I still think a statement such as his was not only ignorant, it was false. It creates an atmosphere of hysteria that only lowers the vibrational level of those whom you might attract to yourself on the spiritual realm. Sure, plenty of people who don't have much spiritual foundations may use divination and open themselves to darker forces. I do not dispute that this occurs. It's known to happen to houses with prepubescent girls so frequently that they've made movies about it (Carrie, Exorcist). But to equate using Tarot cards to possible demon possession... stupid stupid stupid. (Like any demon would even WANT to possess someone that stupid... but I'm just ranting now). And DE, I found it interesting how he qualified his credentials at the top of the show. He was explaining himself as a demonologist and not a Satanist... the difference being they each share the same knowledge in how the dark forces work, but the demonologist works to help others rid these forces from their lives. Ok, thought I. Noble aim. Then, he went into how he doesn't "push" his religion on to others that he helps, but that if they are spiritually unguided, he teaches them of Christ. And I thought... hmmm, well, alright. But cha-ching... $$$ ... you couldn't be more correct in the fact that the bottom line is an issue too, DE. How much he charges for his exorcism services, I can't reckon. Bet it ain't cheap. Nothing like planting a nice suggestion to a inter/national audience that if they've used Tarot cards, they may now need an exorcism too. Cha-ching... cha-ching... cha-ching....

lunalafey	15 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Alissa The man said, "Don't open yourself to spiritual communication!" guess he won't be talking with God anytime soon....

sagitarian	15 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Alissa :D That's what I was thinking! However, I don't believe my sister sagitarian has read any Nietzsche, so I don't believe she knew the original source as some might. :) Cha-ching... cha-ching... cha-ching.... No I haven't read an Nietzsche, for some reason, my philosophy teacher skipped that one, shrugs. In any case, I understand, I know what ya mean. One of my students that I'm currently teaching, when I first started teaching her, she had asked me "if I pick up your cards, will it curse me or something?". Now, a lot of people wonder, and feel stand offish to touch another persons' deck of cards. Not just out of respect, but b/c they can sense that something else is "there". I picked up a random card and put it into her hand and I asked her "what is this?" and she said at first "I don't know" and I asked again "what is it made out of?" and she said "paper? cardboard?" I said right. It's just a pretty piece of paper, it possesses no power of it's own. You make it into what you want it to be. If you want to use it for playing a game, then that's what it will be to you, a game, if you want to use it for divination, then that's what it will be used for. Any object in this world is worth what you make it to be worth, and will hold a meaning to it if you give it that meaning. Paper and cardboard do not curse anyone. Look through the cards and tell me what YOU find in them. I know it's a bit long winded, but it was one of my first lessons with her. I know that no one can get possessed by tarot itself, nor by just doing a ouija board (I know taboo subject there). I'm just saying that once you open yourself to that possibility, then well, it's possible. It exists if you believe it exists, if she would've believed that it would have cursed her had she touch the deck, then yes it would have, but only because she made it up in her own mind. It would have nothing to do with the cards themselves. I understand your rage with the subject Sis, believe me I do! I'm tired of being accused a satan worshiper or what ever b/c I choose to use my divinatory gifts, and b/c I feel a Goddess spirit as well as a God. In any case, I understand the uproar, but as others said, he kind of contradicted himself there by the things he said. As lunalafey has pointed out, as well as so many others that have commented. Then again, I do believe he meant spiritual communication as in trying to talk to the deceased rather then making prayers to God or to His Angels. Yes it's still spiritual communication (I agree), but I don't think he meant to include God in what he was talking about with that statement. Just my thoughts on it. Sagitarian

September Pixie	15 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Alissa Ok, thought I. Noble aim. Then, he went into how he doesn't "push" his religion on to others that he helps, but that if they are spiritually unguided, he teaches them of Christ. And I thought... hmmm, well, alright. But cha-ching... $$$ ... you couldn't be more correct in the fact that the bottom line is an issue too, DE. How much he charges for his exorcism services, I can't reckon. Bet it ain't cheap. Nothing like planting a nice suggestion to a inter/national audience that if they've used Tarot cards, they may now need an exorcism too. Cha-ching... cha-ching... cha-ching.... woah, I hadn't even thought of that! Do you think he was there as a marketing ploy?

Alissa	15 Oct 2004
Well, Sept_Pixie... maybe so. People definitely get booked as guests when they have either a service or a product to plug - they don't get booked just because they're interesting. If he wasn't there to promote a book of his, then he was there to promote his service (which is often the case of their radio guests, and nothing wrong with that, but yes, one should be aware of what is being SOLD to them). Like I said, I didn't listen to his entire spot, I only heard enough to tick me off! })

Cerulean	15 Oct 2004
www.phantasmpsiresearch Goofy photos that I usually attribute to flash and bad reflections--that's from my quick look. I take bad photos frequently. They are usually haunted by my light-challenged choices and index finger. Regards, Cerulean

SFGMaster	15 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Cerulean www.phantasmpsiresearch.com Cerulean Oh my... Is anyone actually supposed to take that seriously? Their landing page looks like a bad halloween haunted house flyer... :rolleyes: I don't need to be a psychic to see that this is the site of a charlatan. How ridiculous. --:TKNC

September Pixie	15 Oct 2004
lol thats really rather funny!

HudsonGray	15 Oct 2004
Sooooo........I take it then that we're NOT all demon possessed? How do I explain the bird skulls in the back trunk of the car then? Gee, maybe I can use them for artist models or something. I save my cat's whiskers too--- (Don't fret about the bird skulls, I found them on the beach all bleached in the sun--a herring gull skull is amazing when you get a close look at it, I have 4 of them now).

DarkElectric	16 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Alissa :D That's what I was thinking! However, I don't believe my sister sagitarian has read any Nietzsche, so I don't believe she knew the original source as some might. :) I just happen to have a crush on Nietzsche which has been unrequited for 100 years, don't mind me . :P And Umbrae is a well read, comprehensive thinker, so it's easy to see why someone would attribute such a quote to him. As far as that website, OMG. If anyone who heard that show took the guy seriously, I think they'd be possessed by the demon of lack of common sense. The dude's a jaboni. That stupid looking site was definitely entertaining...sort of...if ya know what I mean...

Kittaine	16 Oct 2004
I actually believe that Tarot reading makes you more "attractive" to certain forces out there, whether good or bad. That's why it's always best to protect yourself and cast a white circle before doing a reading.

blackroseivy	16 Oct 2004
He was just mentioning the things he doesn't happen to like. Never mind about what he *does* like!! One time I was getting friendly with a bus driver, REAL interesting guy & Pagan, of course(!) :D in my college town where I stayed for a while in search of money to go on to Ireland. I was having a hard time of it, & I can't possibly tell the story now but I had entangled myself with someone famous & it was causing me very great grief. I asked Ron (the bus driver) to do a reading for me sometime - or he offered, I guess, this is a long time ago! - & he stopped the bus at the end of the route another time to do so. (The reading very much pulled a negative, BTW - *very* accurate!) This would have been fine, except there turned out to be A RABID BIBLE-THUMPER waiting with her little boy up front! We went back up after the end of it & there she was praying aloud! After which she proceeded to give us a VERY LENGTHY LECTURE on the evils of Tarot!!! This lasted so long that I jumped up to get off the bus at the mall instead of waiting for the University... probably a 21/2-mile walk! I was so eager to jump off the bus that I hit my head on the way out! (Every time I think of the incident, that pain comes right back to me!) Later, Ron said that he "hadn't been beat on by a Jesus-freak in a long time!!" Harhar!! :laugh: Well, that's *my* story! My profile in Elysium Gardens in Care2 says as Mission: "To enlighten the dense!"

blackroseivy	16 Oct 2004
BTW - Umbrae, you must do your pink-tutu dance for ALL of us someday!!! :D :D :D

Ace	16 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Alissa The man said, "Don't open yourself to spiritual communication! According to a friend (and member of a very strict Chrisian sect) many Christian's feel that spiritual communication is to be delivered ONLY by the priests, NOT the common people. So that is why you are wrong to do divination and spritual healing. It is the Devil using good for his own ends. This friend, BTW, believes that I am damned to Hell. He would ask me questions about what I did and we discussed (even argued about) it, but he felt to get read was a major sin. "Hate the sin, not the sinner." was his credo. We have a pact: when we meet in Heaven, he will get a tarot reading!

Shalott	16 Oct 2004
To be honest, I am always surprised when ppl are surprised to encounter this attitude. Maybe it's just because I spent several years going to a rather mainstream evangelical church and this is the exact kind of stuff ppl believed completely - some even believed the little Troll dolls with the fluffy hair were like "homing beacons" to demons. They think we're all kidding ourselves that we can play with this stuff without consequences. They think ppl who don't believe in hell, demons, spiritual warfare, et al are only kidding themselves. I think I've really developed a "Yeah, whatever," attitude about it because it's really pretty widespread and there's not much I can do about it. I can't change their minds any better than they can change mine. That ol' Puritan legancy rearing it's ugly head again...

Tarot Sparrow	17 Oct 2004
Ugh. Tarot/divination and demon possession? I always pity those who think that. Ouija, maybe, because you're directly opening yourself to spirits. But I don't believe divination of any kind can lead to demon possession unless you're somehow using it specifically for the purpose of opening yourself to spirits. But just by using them? They're just cards and tools. They're not portals for demons unless you want them to be. That just doesn't make any sense :rolleyes:

jmd	17 Oct 2004
I actually tend to agree very much with sagitarian's points. In some ways, if an interviewer had asked a financial advisor what is the best way to avoid being ripped off, the answer may very well have been 'don't invest nor spend your money'. In the context of a short interview, the comment may in fact have been quite apt, without in any way wishing to diminish the myriad value of Tarot. It is unfortunately the 'small' remarks of what appears relatively un-important which may at times have enormous consequences ('the flutter of the wings of a butterfly in South America' syndrome). Remember, the story presented was 'He was asked what can people do to keep themselves protected from demon possession. The man said, "Don't open yourself to spiritual communication! Don't use Ouija boards, or Tarot cards, or anything that allows for divination. Any time a person opens themselves to the act of divination, they open themselves to demonic possession."' This is the same kind of answer as my previous one regarding finances - one which basically says: do nothing which a spiritually sensible person will do. The prevention protects the person who is already prone to, in the first instance, being ripped off, and in the second, being 'possessed'. The site linked appeared to me to be of a group of people who are genuinely seeking to investigate and identify certain occurances. That I may personally disagree with their views is irrelevant, as long as they do not seek to impose the same on others - and that is of course where the comment on Tarot does come into its own: it gives the impression, taken out of context, that people should not use Tarot. No-one would claim that people should neither invest nor spend their money because of the risk of being ripped off - and the obvious is there obvious (not to speak redundantly). Yet the comment about Tarot is very likely to be taken on-board outside its context. In that sense, the comment is more than unfortunate. Opening oneself to the workings of the spiritual realm is not the same as opening oneself to the negative forces of the spiritual realm. I would have thought that, generally and for most, the usage of Tarot indeed assists in not only opening oneself up to the spiritual realms, but strengthens an inner resolve, brings greater clarity, and makes one on the whole more positive to the impulses of Light and Love from those very realms. In that sense spiritually further protecting oneself by a greater opening towards (what the Christian may indeed call) Christ-forces.

Cerulean	17 Oct 2004
Quote from the website... "At Phantasm PSI, our priorities differ greatly than those who investigate strictly with scientific interests. Our goal is the spiritual well-being of the family, getting them through these life-altering events, and back on the path away from the super and preternatural. We firmly believe that a family's strength and faith in God, combined with our own, can bring an end to most hauntings." In other words, I believe their evangelical slant is most likely to come out in a religious context and that is behind their agenda to people who are in grief and haunted situations. While this may not be the case, suddenly it opened my eyes to the vulnerability some people might have in times of sadness..and a horrible way some charlatans nowadays might take advantage of a family's vulnerability to grief. I was very interested to read about this and thank Alissa and others for a rather valuable discussion. Regards Cerulean

Kath	17 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Alissa "Don't open yourself to spiritual communication! Don't use Ouija boards, or Tarot cards , or anything that allows for divination. Any time a person opens themselves to the act of divination, they open themselves to demonic possession." When my devout Christian boss found out I read tarot cards, he said the exact same thing! He told me that by using tarot cards I was channelling demons and was opening myself to possession. I could not believe the words coming out of his mouth. Since then, I have never mentioned my tarot cards to him.

RedMaple	18 Oct 2004
I am not surprised by the intolerance of those on the Religious Right (who are neither, in my opinion, truly religious, nor right in any way ....) A few years ago my sister bought Tarot cards for her daughters for Christmas. After Christmas dinner, I read for them both with their new cards. My brother still talks about how I blasphemed and desecrated the holiday. He wasn't brought up that way, but since he's been influenced by the conservative, fundamentalist branch of the catholic church, he is uptight, judgmental, and much less loving - he's too invested in trying to be right, and finding everyone else lacking. Not my idea of spiritual maturity. I personally have no tolerance for intolerance :)

jmd	18 Oct 2004
Thankyou for that quote from the site, Cerulean - I must admit that I scanned through some of its pages rather quickly, as the whole matter does not interest me much. It is indeed sad if they are using the phenomena as a means to preach intolerance and their particular view as to what is the right way to think and do things... And I remain forever surprised at the way I hear some people view Tarot. I suppose that working, living and engaging in a tolerant community (and to a lesser extant a similarly tolerant and open society) means that I can put out a Newsletter, for example, and the parents of my students - or my peers - are more likely to ask me for a reading or when I may be having a talk or course than the opposite.

purpleflower	18 Oct 2004
I was fortunate enough to be raised in a family that wasn't ultra conservative. My mother was open-minded about most things, especially those spiritual. Being originally from the carribbean her upbringing was very different from mine. My mom and her family had extensive exposure to santeria, which in some ways shares a similarity with catholicism. I heard many stories and learned many things from an early age which made me very curious about spirituality in general. While I'd never had experience with the tarot through my mother, I knew that it was a very popular and accepted form of divination that many people practiced. I guess that's why I became so interested in it in my early twenties when my best friend and I would go to anyone and everyone we could find who did tarot readings! I know enough about it to consider it something serious and not a game as a lot of people view it. I respect the study of the tarot and hope to continue to learn as much as I can about it. I don't understand why some people find it so wrong or see it as some sort of "communication with evil spirits". That is so far from the truth! As with anything else, those who don't know are usually the first to condemn something and I think it's a shame. If only those who condemn would actually take the time to learn a bit about the tarot and appreciate the insight one can gain from it, there'd be a better understanding of what a magnificent tool it is for self-discovery and fulfillment. I will admit, though, that I don't use Ouija boards. That was one thing my mother was adamant about. I remember one time while I was in 6th grade I went to visit a friends house and she gave me a Ouija board that she'd had in her closet and never used. I had seen them in toy stores before (and it's so NOT a toy) and was so excited when I brought it home. My mother was horrified and promptly took the box outside and put it in the trash can. She told me to never ever use one because it was a dangerous thing to mess with. Unfortunately that memory wasn't enough to prevent me from using one several years later, lol! I had a couple of creepy experiences that swore me off of those forever, though. Well, I've rambled long enough! I'm glad that I found ATF so I have a place to share all these things! Purpleflower

Sheela-na	18 Oct 2004
quote: "I will admit, though, that I don't use Ouija boards. That was one thing my mother was adamant about." - purple flower I have heard something similar to this in many posts. I have also had negative experiences with Ouija boards. Is this a common census?

Imagemaker	18 Oct 2004
For some reason the general consensus is that Ouija boards attract "low" or mean or trouble-making spirits. I'd love for someone to explain why the boards do that more than other communication methods.

DarkElectric	18 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Sheela-na quote: "I will admit, though, that I don't use Ouija boards. That was one thing my mother was adamant about." - purple flower I have heard something similar to this in many posts. I have also had negative experiences with Ouija boards. Is this a common census? EEEEEEEEEEK! Ouija boards! Don't get me started on those things! I'm one who has personal feelings against Ouija boards. There are some folks here, I'm sure, who've had positive experiences with them, but I'm not one of em. Nope, I don't mess with them at all. And I don't know why it seems that lower level entities come through those. My conjecture is that so many inexperienced people use them, and it's probably really easy to latch onto some unshielded, unsuspecting person's energy and get through the barrier between planes that way. I've actually seen people trained in magical arts, at High Priestess/Priest level use one with no ill results. But I'm not a HP yet, far from it. So I leave them alone. There are archived threads aplenty here about this ever popular topic!

Seed Crystal	18 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Alissa Last night I was up, and listening to Coast to Coast AM with George Noory, and their guest was a "demonologist, Dave Considine, the founder of Phantasm Psychic Research." ... ... He was asked what can people do to keep themselves protected from demon possession. The man said, "Don't open yourself to spiritual communication! Don't use Ouija boards, or Tarot cards , or anything that allows for divination. Any time a person opens themselves to the act of divination, they open themselves to demonic possession." ... ::warning! rant approaching:: Also, probably: don't read the Bible or at least interpret it for yourself; let a minister tell you what it means. Don't see "bad" movies, or listen to that evil rock n roll. Don't read, really it just makes you think and then you might have doubts or questions or new ideas and you'll go to HELL!!!!!! Don't choose a church or path that speaks to you. Just because God gave you a mind is no reason to spoil it, just because God made each of us different is no reason to not find the narrowest most frightened conformist way to live we can, certainly learning (except for memorization) or diversity was NOT part of the Divine plan. God has no tolerance for people using the gifts mental psychic etc. that God gave them!!! Best thing is - when you're dead you'll be safe. Or damned. Most likely damned. Unlike the demonologist who is just expressing Love... ::end of rant:: Fundamentalism isn't just a christian thing, I know, and it truly is a tiny minority; but in my corner of the world they certainly have the biggest balls and mouths, and no shame; lying about pagans for example is apparently an acceptable exception to their commandments... just as killing abortion providers is deemed "justifiable" by some. Certainly, let's ban Halloween, and harrass psychics. Ok maybe the end-of-rant warning was premature.

miss_apples	19 Oct 2004
I think the funniest thing about religious extremists such as this....do they realize that all the major characters in the Bible such as Jesus, Moses, David, and countless others have all experienced divine communication? Why was it ok for those people to talk to spirits but not people of today? I seriously think that there are very important historical people in Heaven laughing their butts off at these fanatics who dont think before they speak.

SFGMaster	19 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by miss_apples I think the funniest thing about religious extremists such as this....do they realize that all the major characters in the Bible such as Jesus, Moses, David, and countless others have all experienced divine communication? Why was it ok for those people to talk to spirits but not people of today? I seriously think that there are very important historical people in Heaven laughing their butts off at these fanatics who dont think before they speak. Unfortunately, it seems to me that this might not be as "extreme" a view as we might think; your quote seems to pretty much represent the mainstream around here. Since I started reading Tarot again, and especially since having my "near death" vision, I've also been receiving visions outside of readings at times. With that, and this thread, in mind, I recently asked a friend of mine (whom I know to have much more orthodox religious views than myself) what he thought about spiritual communication in general--if it was a good thing to open yourself up to communicate with spiritual beings, or whether we should "close ourselves off" to such avenues and just "go by what the book says". (I phrased the question to him just like that.) His response was a rather incredulous look, and to say that "well, the Bible tells us everything we need to know... why would we need to communicate with Him some other way?" :rolleyes: Upon further exploration of this topic, it seems that the idea of receiving an "answer" to our prayers is to wait to see if the stuff we asked for happens or not; if we actually hear something back in our minds, then that's probably the Devil manipulating us. Also, it shows a lack of Faith if, rather than blindly accepting the Bible as the One True Guide, one instead seeks to communicate directly with the Higher Power. He really didn't explain the Holy Spirit thing much except to say that it's more like a "conscience" and he really didn't think one could carry on a conversation with it. I mentioned that I thought I remembered having a conscience even *before* the Church says I got the Holy Spirit, so maybe it was for something else? But, he didn't seem to think that was a valid argument... apparently the Holy Spirit is just a *better* conscience than the one we had before. Like an upgrade, or something... :rolleyes: Just for grins, I also asked him if he saw a difference between a vision one received after (for instance) gazing into a crystal to meditate, and one that was received after fasting for a few days to reach a heightened state that way. The answer: "Yes, a big difference! Crystal balls are Evil-Fortune-Telling-Devices, and Fasting is Holy!" *Sigh....* :( --:TKNC

Eco74	19 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by SFGMaster Just for grins, I also asked him if he saw a difference between a vision one received after (for instance) gazing into a crystal to meditate, and one that was received after fasting for a few days to reach a heightened state that way. The answer: "Yes, a big difference! Crystal balls are Evil-Fortune-Telling-Devices, and Fasting is Holy!" So, does that mean that people who fast before seing visions are "safe" regardless of where they see it? What if someone who has been fasting for a few days would happen to walk past a store and look past a crystal in the window just as s/he got a vision. Would that make it holy or corrupt? *smacks self on forehead* Ah, but ofcourse.. It would be the devil playing mindtricks on you. Makes perfect sense what with the conversation Jesus had with the Devil during his fast in the desert... Which means even fasting can bring communication with bad spirits... Oh dear.. It seems we're all doomed after all. :eek:

Alissa	19 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by SFGMaster *Sigh....* :( Reads that...and sighs too... :( Each person, I remind myself, is here to discover the Truths they are ready, within their soul, to find, in the here and now. His Truth is just not my Truth. But to his soul, it is Truth. So to that I say, Namaste. Namaste to those who fear spiritual communication. And namaste to those who open themselves to it. "I bow to the God/dess within you." Which is to say: I trust you are making the decisions your soul has asked you to make, right where you are, in your own spiritual path. I may disagree with those decisions, but I believe in everyone's right to find the Truth, as they best see it.

SFGMaster	19 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Eco74 What if someone who has been fasting for a few days would happen to walk past a store and look past a crystal in the window just as s/he got a vision. Would that make it holy or corrupt? LOL!! I'm *so* tempted to ask that... but he already thinks I'm trying to make him into a "heretic like me," I don't want to make his head explode or anything. :D Alissa: I agree that we all must find our own truth... the trouble comes, just like the situation with the paranormal guy on the radio, when people try to impose their own truths on others. And, as a (admittedly rather unorthodox) Christian myself, my fear is this: If the Church is teaching a whole generation of seekers that they must reject any communication with the Higher Powers, and instead must rely wholly on their faith in, and their understanding of, a poorly translated, extremely ancient manuscript... If this generation of Christians have truly never *conversed* with their Lord... if they only blindly send messages and never read the replies... Will these be the ones, as foretold, of whom Christ will say, "Sorry, I never knew you?" :( (For the non-Christians here, do ignore that whole last paragraph and instead read it as "it's such a sad thing to have no Spirituality, how horrible for them.") --:THIER

ihcoyc	19 Oct 2004
You just have to be straight with these people. Tarot cards aren't going to get you possessed by the Devil. Ouija boards can be silly, but aren't that dangerous unless you're Linda Blair. What really puts your soul in danger is Fox News Channel.

Shalott	19 Oct 2004
Ah, ihcoyc, you just haven't been Hannitized yet... ;) SFGMaster, this buddy of yours sounds like I did, and most of the ppl I knew, about 10 years ago. They can answer any question, spin and twist things like a master politician, and they really believe it all, too! To those of use who use cards and haven't been possessed we know how silly it is, but they really believe with every fiber of their being that we're playing with fire...darn near literally! Like, if God had wanted us to use Tarot or crystal balls, he would have told us to in the Bible. Same reason there can't POSSIBLY be life on other planets...not mentioned in the Bible. Perhaps some would like to give up soap and toilets...those weren't in the Bible either, nopers.

blackroseivy	19 Oct 2004
LOL to that last one!! :D I just want to add here that Ouja boards CAN very well be dangerous, if you have mental fragilities & vulnerabilities. As I have mentioned before, & in this context it's necessary for me to mention it again, I have bi-polar disorder, & I used a Ouija board to get me that way for the 2nd time in 2000. I had a bout of a few years there, being convinced that *real PEOPLE*, not just spirits, were talking to me through it - & BOY was it ever convincing! - & I wound up with a *horrible* case of voices with it. I'm not saying that would happen to everyone by any means, but it certainly *is* a warning to watch out where Ouija boards are concerned, especially for the young.

Kath	19 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by SFGMaster (For the non-Christians here, do ignore that whole last paragraph and instead read it as "it's such a sad thing to have no Spirituality, how horrible for them.") As a non-Christian, I not only think it’s sad that these people don’t have Spirituality. I think it’s sad that their teachers are not encouraging them to read the Bible and find their own truth. They are indoctrinating their flock to their own (possibly narrow) definitions of the Bible, and I fear what may happen when the members of the flock start thinking (or wanting to think) for themselves. Slightly off topic, but related to the Crystal Ball comment – if I, as a non-Christian, have a ‘gift’, like psychic ability, it is the Devil’s work. If I were a Christian, it would be a gift from God. What if I converted to Christianity? Where would my ‘gift’ have come from?? :P

SFGMaster	19 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Kath if I, as a non-Christian, have a ‘gift’, like psychic ability, it is the Devil’s work. If I were a Christian, it would be a gift from God. What if I converted to Christianity? Where would my ‘gift’ have come from?? :P Ohhhhh.... such awesome questions just *begging* for answers! :D I really really shouldn't... I'd just be messing with him at this point, anyway; I pretty much learned what I wanted already... ;)

BlueLotus	19 Oct 2004
In one of her interviews, Sylvia Browne says explicitely that although she does not encourage spirit communication through Ouija boards for one, she sees no harm in using tarot decks to do spiritual consultations . That statement was one reason why I thought of tarot as harmless, coming from a renowned spirit expert. But of course I always start with a sort of prayer before I do my readings, and refuse to let anyone handle my cards extensively, and I can attest through my own observation, that tarot has anything but brought in demons, or undesired spirits. However, as I mentioned above, I try to keep the handling of my decks by others to a minimum, even though the unopened decks I receive must have been handled by others before they reached me, anyway. So,.....

acolyte	20 Oct 2004
Well i did take a look at www.phantasmpsiresearch.com and othter than the fact that it is so poorly designed ( I'm a web designer so i do critique all sites i look at) it does not have much to say but as was said before it's just for the money. Anwyay I have never seen tarot cards as a way of possesion unless you let them be.We have so much control over things in the spirit world if you did not.My cards never have control over me and at the end of the day they are just pieces of paper.Let's not let this guy bother us like many people he does not know half of what he is talking about.

mikeyofthesea	20 Oct 2004
i am sorry but what station is this on and what time. do you know if the washington d.c. area would get this station. i don't know if that is a dumb question but wanted to ask anyway.

Eco74	20 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Kath Slightly off topic, but related to the Crystal Ball comment – if I, as a non-Christian, have a ‘gift’, like psychic ability, it is the Devil’s work. If I were a Christian, it would be a gift from God. What if I converted to Christianity? Where would my ‘gift’ have come from?? :P Ooh, I know I know!! If the gift was already there, it would still be a work of the Devil and you would have to renounce it and never use it again, like a thief swearing off his old proffession. However, if it was there in the raw and came out strong After the conversion, it would be a gift from God since he is the one who set it free and previously, the Devil clearly held it back. See, I grew up next door to a church... *grins*

carly	20 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by danubhe there turned out to be A RABID BIBLE-THUMPER waiting with her little boy up front! We went back up after the end of it & there she was praying aloud! After which she proceeded to give us a VERY LENGTHY LECTURE on the evils of Tarot!!! I am a Catholic (if not a very good one) and I would never try to enforce my opinions on anyone else, on any topic, for that matter. Or try not to try, at least ;). I think that you can believe what you believe, and people having different religions usually result in very interesting debates (usually with the boy behind me in my English class, much to my teachers' annoyence :D). In the end, most people just choose their religion and stick with it, hoping to find enlightentment (is that the right word? my head's broken at the moment) at the end. Who is anybody to choose what's wrong, or right? *me finally plucking up the courage to post something :|*

floracove	20 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by danubhe I just want to add here that Ouja boards CAN very well be dangerous, if you have mental fragilities & vulnerabilities. As I have mentioned before, & in this context it's necessary for me to mention it again, I have bi-polar disorder, & I used a Ouija board to get me that way for the 2nd time in 2000. I had a bout of a few years there, being convinced that *real PEOPLE*, not just spirits, were talking to me through it - & BOY was it ever convincing! - & I wound up with a *horrible* case of voices with it. I'm not saying that would happen to everyone by any means, but it certainly *is* a warning to watch out where Ouija boards are concerned, especially for the young. danubhe, I totally agree with you on this one, the Quija carries a certain feel to it, for me... As a child, 8 yr's old, i was given one by an aunt for a christmas present. I think that all the things I'd see & say as a toddler & up had proably had her think it might be a good gift for me, since most everyone else kinda put those things I'd say and do, away as if they didn't happen... Anyway, at 8, I couldn't even open the box. I knew that what ever it held was not a good thing for me to be 'toying' with. It sat up in the top of a hall closet for years. Around 20 something, the board was used to cover a broken window. Always gave me the creeps to go behind the house and see the front of that board. Cause I had a fit when they placed it facing inside the house... That's all the interaction i've ever had with one. And I have absolutely no interest in dealing with one. If things are meant to come to me, they just come to me. No need for me to meddle in things(Ouija board) that give off uneasy vibes to me. No telling what might come up if I did place my hands upon it... Been around them watching, but never touched.

Alissa	20 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by mikeyofthesea i am sorry but what station is this on and what time. do you know if the washington d.c. area would get this station. i don't know if that is a dumb question but wanted to ask anyway. Briefly, the program is an AM talk radio show, called Coast 2 Coast with George Noory, that airs in my time zone from 10 pm-2 am. Might wanna call and check your local stations to see if they carry it. All my own righteous indignation has worn off, I must admit. Now I'm just left with the same resignation I always feel when others confront me about either my very unconventional spiritual beliefs, or my only slightly unconventional looks. You can't rip the skin from the snake, as Baba Ram Dass would say. We won't do anyone any favors by trying to force them into a more open-minded view of anything "occult" unless they're darn good and ready to listen. And I mean Listen. People will open their minds when they're ready, and forcing them open is akin to cutting a butterfly from its coccoon. The butterfly, without the struggle, is unable to push blood into their wings, and therefore cannot fly. And those who know... have wings. :D

smleite	20 Oct 2004
From The Llewellyn Encyclopedia: “ The word divination is based on a Latin word that means "the faculty of foreseeing.” The word comes from the Latin word for "divine power," or "of the gods." This indicates that the true meaning of the word divination is "to make divine." To make divine. But, of course, you’ve also got The Catholic Encyclopedia’s meaning of the word, begging with: “Divination - The seeking after knowledge of future or hidden things by inadequate means. The means being inadequate they must, therefore, the supplemented by some power which is represented all through history as coming from gods or evil spirits. Hence the word divination has a sinister signification. (…)”. Or better yet, The New Catholic Dictionary, where “Divination implies the direct or indirect solicitation of a preternatural evil agency to supplement a natural deficiency. Its practise or patronage is sinful, varying with circumstances. (…)”.

Diana	20 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by carly *me finally plucking up the courage to post something :|* Welcome to Aeclectic, carly! Please don't be shy! Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. It is good to know that there are tolerant Christians around. There are far too many Fundamentalists around that give Christianity a bad name, and we need to hear the voice sometimes of the other side - the less loud and less aggressive side, just like you. :)

Eco74	20 Oct 2004
Following Dianas example ;) : Quote: Originally posted by carly *me finally plucking up the courage to post something :|* And well written too.. I'm glad you decided to join in the conversation and I promise it'll only get easier after the first post. Soon you'll find yourself rambling, I'm sure, and we'll all be better off for it. Welcome indeed! :)

Shalott	20 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by mikeyofthesea i am sorry but what station is this on and what time. do you know if the washington d.c. area would get this station. i don't know if that is a dumb question but wanted to ask anyway. ...or check out the link to the show that Alissa has in the initial post, and find their "affiliates" link. I love this show, too, overall, the person who made these unfortunate remarks was a guest, and with this show, you get freaks and geeks and extremely cool and interesting ppl as well. It's really a catch-all for things that don't make the mainstream...and sometimes they just get a hold of things BEFORE the mainstream. On the weekends, Art Bell, who originated the whole show and format, hosts and there's something very special on those nights...don't get me started...oh, too late! :| (It used to be "hard-core" paranormal, covering many of the same topics as the X Files, only it's not fiction, or not a set-up. That's not to say believe everything you hear on it, it's just..."non-fiction," know what I mean?)

carly	21 Oct 2004
ty Diana and Eco74 (would exclamation mark but that button has been busted since the bottle-of-water-meets-keyboard incident :D) It's so nice when ppl are nice (to put it simply). I'm going to go on the newbie boards and introduce myself there, now I've got started, but I'll still keep an eye on this topic, because I think it's deeply interesting and it obviously kina clashes with my religion and stuff. Hmm, my post no. has just turned plural and I'm already rambling, ah well, the gist of what I'm trying to say is, thank you for the lovely welcomes :)

mj07	22 Oct 2004
hmmm... where to start? well, I was raised by VERY strict Fundamentalist/Evangelical Christians and my mom quite literally would see a demon behind every tree. I think they exorcised me more than once, mainly b/c I thought I was possessed (most likely I was doubting my "faith" or something, can't remember now, or, I was a depressed teen) As a result, I still am somewhat, hmm... how to say it? "iffy" on using the tarot for "fortune telling" b/c of my upbringing. My mom would say for certain that I would be opening the door to Satan and getting possessed. Frequently when I use the cards I hear my mom's voice in the back of my head, uttering of all these dire warnings! Deep down inside, I don't think I believe any of that, but, since I was raised from a baby with it, those "tapes" are hard to stop playing! I actually could use some advice on, well, NOT being fearful when using the tarot!

Seed Crystal	25 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by mj07 hmmm... where to start? well, I was raised by VERY strict Fundamentalist/Evangelical Christians and my mom quite literally would see a demon behind every tree. ... ::large snip:: I actually could use some advice on, well, NOT being fearful when using the tarot! Well I do not know if you are a Christian still; I am not, but I think it an excellent path for many. But it seems to me that obcession with The Devil and demons might not be very consistent with Christian theology and faith; to me, such focus always suggested a belief that Evil was as powerful or even more powerful than Good, than demons cared more for individuals than the Christian God did (because they would snatch you at any slight weakness, and God would not save you or much care, only a few will be saved...) Although I am a pagan, some things I think many Christians agree with me are that: Creation is Deity-approved and blessed, essentially Good; that human intellect and creativity are not inately evil but in fact are more naturally good, unless twisted; that our remarkable gifts for perceiving meaning, seeing patterns, is a blessing and capable of being used for good, rather than some weird vindictive curse... Do you know the story of the little drummer boy? His gift to God, a gift of himself, his best, his talents, was not rejected by a loving Deity, even if it apalled local religious... Fear, especially the fears we learned as children, is hard to over-come; it can slant and filter all perception, if accompanied with enough anxiety. But the inate tendency to heal, to grow, to seek to understand, to make one's own choices and find one's own meanings, are remarkable strong. Learning about how the mind functions, how we grow, how we teach and learn, can itself be very helpful, and provide a prospective. A lot of time a cultivated fear will fade or crumble if considered thoughtfully, with all the blessings an adult mind can bring to bear on it. The truth really can set one free. And skillfully using metaphors can give one a bigger, more vivid understanding of Truths recognizable elsewhere. Let me know if this helps. With compassion and respect, Seed Crystal

mj07	25 Oct 2004
thanks, seed crystal! no, I am not a Christian any longer, and I can totally relate to what you're saying. It's beyond me how anyone can believe that their god would so easily give them up for something so small as going to a psychic, have tarot cards read, or, using the ouija board (or in the case of my parents, they believed there were satanic subliminal messages in rock music that would get you, too!) Quote: A lot of time a cultivated fear will fade or crumble if considered thoughtfully, with all the blessings an adult mind can bring to bear on it. The truth really can set one free. And skillfully using metaphors can give one a bigger, more vivid understanding of Truths recognizable elsewhere. thanks for that!

TheLovers2	26 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Ace According to a friend (and member of a very strict Chrisian sect) many Christian's feel that spiritual communication is to be delivered ONLY by the priests, NOT the common people. So that is why you are wrong to do divination and spritual healing. It is the Devil using good for his own ends. That may be true of Catholics, but, for non-denominational Christians and I might still add (some not all) we believe that spiritual communication with God or the Holy Trinity should definitely take place on a personal level between the person and God. This is an absolute necessity that one goes to God for himself, not NEEDING anyone to do it for him. So, we believe you can and should. Then as for "spiritual healing," there are Christians who totally believe in "divine healing," by the laying on of hands or through prayer, etc. I am one of them. Some might take issue with it being done other than by praying to God, laying hands in the Name of Jesus or methods more in keeping with Christian beliefs. Also, there is a general mode of thinking that any type of "foretelling of future events" can be done, but, again they would probably say, only through "divine" means or prayer, with the Spirit of God giving revelation as HE SEES FIT. So, in other words, one would not be able to just "give information" as THEY will, such as when we do a Reading. One might not have any "word from the Lord" to give a person and if they do, it may be far from being an exact answer. May be, may not be. Also, there is the belief that whatever is revealed will basically point that person back to God and glorify Him in some way. Example: You go to the minister or layperson, whomever and you say "Can you tell me what's going to happen with me and my boyfriend?" Well, it's not like they just take requests, you know. They may tell you that they will pray for you, but, they have not received a "Word from God to give you about that." On the other hand, they might find you in a crowd, single you out in church and say to you, "I have a Word from the Lord for you" and tell you whatever they have to tell you. Whereas, when we Read for someone we always have "something" for them from the cards. It would not be "the cards have not moved me to tell you anything regarding this thing or that." I'm not sure I'm making this clear, but, I'm trying to explain some of the differences even among Christians. One more thing I'd like to address after taking a look at the site that was mentioned in an earlier post is that a lot of Christians would not agree that there are any other methods needed to exorcise a demonic spirit other than commanding that spirit(s) to cease and desist - back off - leave or render it's power null and void to operate, etc. (the key being-- commanding it IN THE NAME OF JESUS.) It would be a matter of speaking to the spirits in the Name of Jesus or by the Blood of Jesus (power being in His Blood). Also, the Bible does indicate that while Jesus was still here doing his ministry that he told the disciples that "this one (demonic spirit) comes not out except through fasting and prayer." I believe that is the exact quote from the King James. So, although it is a symbol, there would not even be a belief that there is "power in the actual symbol of the cross," i.e., you know when you see people in movies holding up crosses. Some people do "annoint" oil (which is a matter of blessing it and praying over it) then dabbing it here and there for cleansing, so to speak, an area or object, i.e., furniture, a doorway, or person, etc. I don't know that a lot would agree with the methods these particular people use in their "exorcisms." I do plan to look at the site again to get more insight into how (methods) that they claim work. TL2 :TLOVE

TheLovers2	26 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Dead Star Ugh. Tarot/divination and demon possession? I always pity those who think that. Ouija, maybe, because you're directly opening yourself to spirits. But I don't believe divination of any kind can lead to demon possession unless you're somehow using it specifically for the purpose of opening yourself to spirits. But just by using them? They're just cards and tools. They're not portals for demons unless you want them to be. That just doesn't make any sense :rolleyes: Dead Star: I just want to say that I agree. Gotta go, but, wanted to say more. Oh well. TL2 :TLOVE

Seed Crystal	26 Oct 2004
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Ace According to a friend (and member of a very strict Chrisian sect) many Christian's feel that spiritual communication is to be delivered ONLY by the priests, NOT the common people. So that is why you are wrong to do divination and spritual healing. It is the Devil using good for his own ends. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Originally posted by TheLovers2 That may be true of Catholics, Actually, not even for Catholics, according to my theologian friend. Aside from visitations to saints, she offered examples of their sacraments being between God and individuals, as necessary or more necessary than their priests' ... assistance, was the word she used. A sinner and God have to connect directly, in her opinion.... Quote: but, for non-denominational Christians and I might still add (some not all) we believe that spiritual communication with God or the Holy Trinity should definitely take place on a personal level between the person and God. This is an absolute necessity that one goes to God for himself, not NEEDING anyone to do it for him. So, we believe you can and should. The way she put it was, we all can use the help of our friends; it could be a sin of pride to think otherwise; God made humans social on purpose... ::shrug:: not my religion, and actually I don't see too much differences in basic beliefs among Christians, though apparently you all see great differences beyond style with each other. One common thread does seem to be that claim, there's no good magic outside of christianity. My understanding and awareness is otherwise. And too that Christians are as capable of evil or good as anyone else.

TheLovers2	26 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Seed Crystal quote: ::shrug:: not my religion, and actually I don't see too much differences in basic beliefs among Christians, though apparently you all see great differences beyond style with each other. _______________________________________________ Seed Crystal: I would say that because it's not "your religion," as you stated, you probably would not be as privy to, aware of, sensitive to the differences that occur in approach to faith, God, etc. among Chrisitans. When you are directly a part of something and it's in your everyday life, then you are in a sense part of a group and you, because of that involvement will be more aware of many of the hows, whys, thinking, etc., of the group. Case in point, is being a Tarot enthusiast. One who takes Tarot seriously and wants to learn, do Readings, grow with it, etc., will be involved and therefore know more about how other people who share that same interest think; much more so than someone with a passing fancy. Even here at ATF, we do not all agree on things re: Tarot. We have differing opinions and that's just as it should be, I suppose; not having to all be or think alike. quote: _______________________________________________ One common thread does seem to be that claim, there's no good magic outside of christianity. My understanding and awareness is otherwise. And too that Christians are as capable of evil or good as anyone else. Yes, I would say that is the general consensus of Christians - only they, of course, would not call it "magic." If I'm understanding you correctly. One thing that most Christians (at least that I know of) would agree about is disapproval of pagan beliefs, (duh), Tarot, Palm Reading, magic, spells, and yes, even some other religions. It is a narrow view, I know. As for Christians being capable of evil or good as anyone else, unfortunately, as a Christian I cannot dispute it. Personally, I have known evil Christians and that's just my opinion. I am not going to try to make a case for "Christians are sooo wonderful" because, frankly, I'm about the truth (of course, that's the truth as I see it), and not all of them are. It is very nice when one encounters a believer who does have a good heart, accountability as far as how they treat their fellow man, etc., but, there is no guarantee that because someone is Christian that this will be the case. This saddens me, but, such is life. But, really, anyone can at anytime call anything they want evil. That seems to be a part of life, too. We will not all agree in this world on what it is or isn't. We each have to decide for ourselves and TRY not to get too bent out of shape, you know, when others voice their differing opinions because it is something that will always happen. One has to have the courage of one's convictions - speak it if you feel it - but, try not to get upset. I know that sometimes, for all of us, this is hard to do. :) TL2 :TLOVE

The Ok, now I'm mad.... "Tarot cards open you to demon possession" thread was originally posted on 15 Oct 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.