Politics and Tarot

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 04 Oct 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.

contrascarpe	04 Oct 2004
Edited to delete my post. I was in a foul mood last evening and after reading my post, I realized that it sounded petty as written. I guess the point I was trying to get across was this - I find it difficult to be objective doing readings on a topic when I already have an opinion on something, one way or another. For this reason, I avoid doing readings for not only myself, but for those close to me. Perhaps others do not have this problem with objectivity, but anytime I see posts on political issues I get suspicious. Dan

Vilyariel	05 Oct 2004
I think readings on political situations are good to, they often show you the other side to the story, or maybe reveal something that the politician didn't want people to know about that could influence their chances...

darwinia	05 Oct 2004
Is love objective Dan? Are handfasting ceremonies objective? I get your point, but people have different interests. I could tell you were in a mood, so I just ignored your post. There are threads on here that I wouldn't read, I just roll my eyes and move on, as I'm sure many do when they read my posts. There was an original thread on whether politics should be part of this forum, and I read the whole shebang and commented on it. Still, people feel compelled to bring their own interests to tarot, it makes it zing for them, it brings the depth they enjoy. I can't object to that because I use tarot in a different way myself, and if I had to follow convention it would destroy the meaning for me, and destroy my spirit.

Alta	05 Oct 2004
I see no reason to not do tarot throws on political subjects. Many have been done in Your Readings with some insightful results. paradoxx especially has over time some truly in-depth readings, with much insuing discussion of the cards. There is no valid reason that the tarot must be confined to personal topics. And no reason to just assume agendas on the part of the poster. They might be there, but give it a chance.

SongDeva	05 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by darwinia I get your point, but people have different interests. I could tell you were in a mood, so I just ignored your post. Good point, darwinia. It reflects that as we are all human here, we should perhaps approach challenging posts with the idea that it's ok to give each other a break. We're all figuring it out as we go, after all.

contrascarpe	05 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by darwinia Is love objective Dan? Are handfasting ceremonies objective? I get your point, but people have different interests. I could tell you were in a mood, so I just ignored your post. There are threads on here that I wouldn't read, I just roll my eyes and move on, as I'm sure many do when they read my posts. Darwinia - Actually, you hit on my point. I will not do a reading on love for myself. I am not objective enough to do so. I tried it on someone I was dating years ago ..... someone I knew I would be seeing for a long time. I did a reading for her and I kept seeing myself there. However, when I was done, she told me the card represented someone she was seeing right before me and had not completely gotten over at that time. I saw what I wanted to see. If someone wants to do political readings, go for it. And yes, it is up to me to decide whether the reader is viewing the reading through rose-colored glasses or is sincere in their impartiality. So, to answer your question - when it comes to Tarot, yes, I believe love is objective when they are doing it for themselves or for someone they fancy. I did not do any readings for myself when I started falling in love with Laura. I did turn to friends here for those readings ..... ones who did not know what was happening. Quote: Still, people feel compelled to bring their own interests to tarot, it makes it zing for them, it brings the depth they enjoy. I agree with this ..... my reaction is to people who use the boards to push their political and/or religious beliefs. But I guess I need to learn to do what most do here - ignore the zealots and wonder what will bring them to the soapbox once November is over. By the way, my edit of my original post is my way of apologizing to the boards :) Dan

contrascarpe	05 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Marion I see no reason to not do tarot throws on political subjects. Many have been done in Your Readings with some insightful results. paradoxx especially has over time some truly in-depth readings, with much insuing discussion of the cards. There is no valid reason that the tarot must be confined to personal topics. And no reason to just assume agendas on the part of the poster. They might be there, but give it a chance. Marion - I never advocated not doing political readings. I was just commenting on how serious to take them. I have been involved in politics my entire life. My Mother was an official in the Democratic Party for many years, working for the State Rep here in Massachusetts. I served on local boards and spent many hours counting ballots before they became electronic. Because of what I have seen, I disagree with your comment that there is no reason to assume agendas. If someone is a staunch Democrat or a staunch Republican, they will live and die with their candidate. I have seen many ugly things said in done in the name of politics. That being said, I still do not know who I am going to vote for. In many ways because of the state I live in I feel like my vote won't count anyway ...... there is no way Massachusetts will NOT vote for Kerry. But I vote anyway because it is a right that was earned by the blood of many over the years. I voted for Bush in 2000 but I must admit that I am leaning slightly toward Kerry this time around ...... that probably makes me impartial enough to do these readings but like Darwinia, I have better uses for my cards :) Dan

Imagemaker	05 Oct 2004
Quote: I feel like my vote won't count anyway However you vote, I urge you to vote. Even MTV is running "please vote" promos by attention-getting stars like P. Diddy, the daughter of Malcolm X (sorry, didn't get her name) and Jennifer Aniston. Each voice contributes to the chorus and Americans need to sing out their opinion. (back to your regularly scheduled tarot discussion)

Mesara	05 Oct 2004
How I would LOVE to get my hands on Bush and Kerry and do some readings for them!!! Just think of the things we would see in their cards! I never vote and I never will.

ros	05 Oct 2004
I'm not into politics but find it interesting to read a small portion of the political readings. Interesting in seeing how to use the cards in different ways & other peoples talents. When the threads are too serious I can feel tension so... I just move on & don't read them.

darwinia	05 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by contrascarpe96 But I guess I need to learn to do what most do here They buy Birds of China playing cards on eBay and pull a bird with their daily card. Bird zealots are taking over the board, and what are these pushy avian fanciers doing in the Daily Thoth thread? Quote: ignore the zealots and wonder what will bring them to the soapbox once November is over. Love?? ;-0))) Quote: By the way, my edit of my original post is my way of apologizing to the boards :) That's not good enough, I want some money fella.

Alta	05 Oct 2004
Please keep in mind this is Talking Tarot, and, the thread does have a topic, whether you can do readings on political figures. Thanks, Marion, co-moderator of Talkng Tarot

MuffinTops	05 Oct 2004
I don't think political throws are possible without some sort of partisan spin to them. Everyone has an opinion about politics and it seems to be reflected in the throw. I have read many political throw threads here and most of the have some sort of editorializing or opinion giving in the interpretatation. Not possible. My opinion.

darwinia	05 Oct 2004
Oh golly, my post seems to have disappeared. The typical hypocrisy of this board. You can delete this one too Marion. HYPOCRISY. THANKS SO MUCH

Mesara	06 Oct 2004
I see my post has been deleted too! Ive never thought of myself as a trouble-maker, but I find it kind of exciting! Kind of like being called into the principal's office for the first time; that rushing feeling of proud rebellion coupled with fear at what mommy and daddy are going to say.... Really Marion, thank you for deleting my post; as you said, it totally detracted from the topic of the thread and I am kind of embarrassed now at my ranting and raving of politicians and their evil, evil, ways! And for those of you who enjoy doing political readings; please do share your insights on these two interesting candidates. I would be very interested in what you find! Maybe I will actually try it myself....

Lee	06 Oct 2004
Just a few quotes from the Forum Rules: "Respect for members also extends to the moderators. Aeclectic Tarot's moderators are volunteers and often have to deal with challenging situations and differing views when maintaining our community, and the vast majority of the time they do a great job. Any concerns or complaints about a moderator's decisions, actions or behaviour should be sent directly to administration for handling, rather than posted for public discussion." And: "Forum administration reserves the right to delete, edit, close or move any thread or post, at any time." These are Solandia's rules, and we're all Solandia's guests. Personally, I don't understand how any reading on any topic could be objective. We all see the cards through the lens of our own thoughts, feelings, personality, biases, prejudices, etc. The entire reading process is based on our concious and subconscious minds making interpretations and decisions and weaving a story from the cards. How could it be completely objective? -- Lee

Kissa	06 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Lee [bpersonally, i don't understand how any reading on any topic could be objective. we all see the cards through the lens of our own thoughts, feelings, personality, biases, prejudices, etc. the entire reading process is based on our concious and subconscious minds making interpretations and decisions and weaving a story from the cards. how could it be completely objective? [/b] Oh thank you, Lee! I was trying to figure out a way of saying that and you said it just perfectly. We are not machines, they are feelings involved in everything we do at every minute of our lives. I don't do readings for others because I am afraid I would tell them what I feel like and the reading shouldn't be about myself but themselves. So I only do readings for myself and my closed ones because we are involved together. When I do a reading, it helps me focus on the best way to solve most often a relationship problem, sometimes just helps me focus on what's best do do in any domain. Reading for others can have such an impact on them, I am not willing to take that kind of responsibility. Regarding the moderator's job and Marion seemingly being called hypocrite, well... I am extremely shocked. I have the most profound respect for the moderators' job, volunteering job, tiring and demanding. I am sorry to see that the boards light on fire as soon as politics (US elections mostly...) are discussed. I don't think any of us will change their mind and their vote after being attacked. On the opposite. The only way you can do something about politics is voting and being engaged in all kind of civil actions. Regarding political readings, it is a weird topic to be read about imho. I don't think Tarot or any kind of oracle or anybody can predict the future so I am most sceptic about political readings. Then again, everybody does what they want with their cards. Peace, fellows Tarot users/holics/readers/collectors/... Kissa

Diana	06 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Kissa I don't think Tarot or any kind of oracle or anybody can predict the future so I am most sceptic about political readings. Then again, everybody does what they want with their cards. Kissa: If they do not predict the future... what exactly DO they do? (apart from "pre"-dicting the past and the present, I mean). If I couldn't read the future with my Tarot cards, I would not see the point in reading them. I know all about my past. And a lot about my present.... What I want to know is how to change my present, if it needs changing, in order to give me the best future possible. And I can only know about that possible future if the Tarot tells me about it. It puzzles me no end that anyone can say that the Tarot does not predict the future. :confused: :confused: :confused:

Macavity	06 Oct 2004
Private forums can indeed make up their own rules... S'fine by me. :P But I think it reasonable to object *IF* posts are deleted without informing the user? I think one becomes more circumspect, as a result... That said, a mutual agreement to delete is fine by me - Been there, done that! (Tacit) communication is important. }) Macavity P.S. I recall one forum, where the thread originator was intially allowed to delete the WHOLE thread, if s/he felt like it! No thread lasted more than five postings. :D P.P.S. I understand efforts were made to better handle this "difficult" thread. And, based on my (far too?) long experience of RL "user support", one can but empathise with... {{{Marion}}} ;)

Alta	06 Oct 2004
Hi darwnina, I deleted a block of posts and yours was in the middle. Didn't notice that until this morning. It should get put back some time today. MT and Mesara, sorry to do that without due notice (which I have belatedly sent), things were a little hairy at my house last night and I got interupted before I could finish completely. Best, Marion

MeeWah	06 Oct 2004
Darwinia: Humble apologies for the inadvertent removal. Your post has been returned to its place :) Edited to add: Whilst this may be a bit off-topic, given the tangent & questions raised thus far acknowledgements in order. That is: sincere gratitude to Lee for the eloquent insight & explanation of "the other side" (moderating view) of the matter. & to Macavity also for the thoughtful contribution.

MeeWah	06 Oct 2004
That said, as an individual & as a reader I do not see a problem with politics as a reading subject nor with predictive readings. Readings can contain an *inadvertent or unintentional predictive quality*; however, this is *my personal opinion based on personal experience as a reader*.

Lee	06 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana It puzzles me no end that anyone can say that the Tarot does not predict the future. :confused: :confused: :confused: Hi Diana! People use Tarot for all sorts of things. Many members here use readings as a method of self-exploration and to get a new perspective on situations, rather than specifically wishing to predict the future. -- Lee

Diana	06 Oct 2004
Lee: I am aware of that. I use it also for other things than not predicting the future. I am just very surprised to hear that people would think that it does NOT predict the future.... whether they use it for this purpose or not is another matter. I think there are so many examples of the Tarot having predicted the future that I can't see how one could deny that fact. Do you see what I mean? It's not what people use it for that I am questioning. It's the not believing that it can predict the future that astounds me.

Lee	06 Oct 2004
You're right, Diana, I didn't read your post carefully enough. I do think, though, that whether Tarot can predict the future is something that will often be in the eye of the beholder. I think it has a lot to do with one's general worldview and isn't so cut and dried. It's not like a scientific experiment where something either is true or isn't, with nothing in between. It's kind of like whether one believes that there are UFO's. To some, the evidence will be irrefutable. To others, it won't be. -- Lee

Kissa	06 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana It puzzles me no end that anyone can say that the Tarot does not predict the future. :confused: :confused: :confused: and it puzzles me that anyone can say that anything/anyone does predict the future. :confused: :confused: :confused:

MuffinTops	06 Oct 2004
Tarot is a guide. We have complete control over our future by the choices we make.

SFGMaster	06 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by Diana It puzzles me no end that anyone can say that the Tarot does not predict the future. :confused: :confused: :confused: Originally posted by Kissa and it puzzles me that anyone can say that anything/anyone does predict the future. :confused: :confused: :confused: I expect most of the difference is merely in what we take the word "future" to mean. In most cases, nothing can definitively "predict the future" insomuch as the "future" is not "set in stone" and can be changed by the application of free will. (There are cases where no choice will affect an outcome, in which case we can see more clearly what the future *will* be in regards to that subject.) That said, the Tarot is well-proven to be able to help us to explore the potential outcomes of situations which lie in the present, even to the extent of shedding light on events which lie outside our control. And, those outcomes which the present has the potential to become can also be referred to as "the future." So--I believe the answer to the question "Can Tarot predict the future?" depends on *your* answer to the question "What is 'the future'?" ;) --:TKNC

Anna	06 Oct 2004
I don't know what I beleive when it comes to predicting the future with Tarot. I've had expereinces of making accurate predictions, but, the people I've predicted for have KNOWN of my predictions... I wonder, would those things have happened anyway? Did the knowing of them actively create them? I'm trying an experiement this week in the reading exchange. I've done 4 readings predicting what the week ahead will be like for 4 kind voluenteers! I haven't told them what my predictions are yet, Floracove has an email of my readings, she's kind of like a witness :D She will post the readings next week. Its going to be really intresting to see what happens!! I'm not intrested in whether I am right or wrong really. I am intrested in how the results of the readings and the feedback will inform my beliefs, and what they will tell me about whether or not the tarot can be used to predict the future accuratly. It may be the first of many experiments :D :D Appolgies if people are fed up of hearing me harping on about experiementing, it seems that every post I write this week is on this subject one way of another! Maybe I have been watching too much Star Trek?

MeeWah	06 Oct 2004
Quote: Originally posted by SFGMaster ...(There are cases where no choice will affect an outcome, in which case we can see more clearly what the future *will* be in regards to that subject.) That said, the Tarot is well-proven to be able to help us to explore the potential outcomes of situations which lie in the present, even to the extent of shedding light on events which lie outside our control. And, those outcomes which the present has the potential to become can also be referred to as "the future." So--I believe the answer to the question "Can Tarot predict the future?" depends on *your* answer to the question "What is 'the future'?" ;) --:TKNC SFGMaster's well-expressed thoughts echo my own to an extent. I am addressing the side comment "...no choice...affect[ing] an outcome..." & "What is the future". I tend to see in *the now* or that more colloquially known as "the present". The now is a cumulative body. Embodies "the past" (including the far past) & contains the potential/the possibles, colloquially known as "the future". Commiserate with the concept that all time is now in spirit; no space or distance in spirit (hence why one can read at a distance or without physical contact). The concepts of time, space & distance of man's world, all of which have their place. On the predictive quality regarding politics or other subject, my view may be slanted based on experience. The audience is free to draw its own conclusions or not as the case may be. I tend to see visions or images unfold with or without the cards. There is a knowing which may or may not be accompanied by images that does not depend on personal knowledge per se, but on that which comes with a certainty that brooks no argument nor denial. As there have been too many instances of far-sight which manifested, I can only avow its existance. As in the case prior to the U.S. presidential election 4 years ago. There had been some discussion & I think readings on the elections to which I had not paid much conscious attention. I was not looking to do an actual reading but idly sort of shuffling the Robin Wood, during which foresaw: 1. That George W. Bush would win. In my mind's eye, I saw the Robin Wood Emperor as him, sitting on a throne in a fog-enshrouded atmosphere. 2. That he would lead us to a bloody & protracted war in the Middle East, the likes of which will be compared to the Vietnam era but in its way, far worse. The only thing I could not see was *the circumstances leading to war*. I was horrified--mainly because I saw the difficult position the U.S. would find itself in the global community & the demands made upon its people. The fears for relatives & friends in the military who never expected to see war conditions & the human toll altogether--but I digress. Btw: *This in no way is a statement of my political stance which is so not dependent on party lines. Nor is it intended to be critical of Pres. Bush or his party* but to serve as an example. In some instances, I do not speak of certain things I see within a reading context or otherwise. This is not about with-holding information--the subject of another discussion in this forum--but about sensing the appropriateness for a blanket statement that may not serve well, not be heeded ahead of its time or otherwise inflict a dubious effect. Some of ye may ask who am I & what kind of reader am I to make such judgement calls, to apparently ignore the free will of the client? These are not "the norm"; usually also accompanied by a literal inability to express certain things or a figurative force preventing me from expressing same. Whatever the qualification may be, I trust in that guidance & heed the silent prompt--acquiescing to a wisdom that is greater than mine. I do, however, note it or file as an addendum with the reading. In the instances where there is feedback over time, I am able to determine the accuracy of the reading or confirmation of other qualities, at which time I may be able to elaborate further for the benefit of the client.

Nevada	06 Oct 2004
Dan, I have the same problem with objectivity, but I read for myself and husband anyway, because . . . sometimes they are so spot on it blows my mind. And in silly ways. For instance, the day my car was ready at the shop I drew all these cards in my morning reading that had wheel images on them. I recall that it was Thoth and two of the cards were Wheel of Fortune and 4 of Wands--Completion, which has a wheel with the wands as spokes. Of course I knew my car was in the shop, but didn't know it would be finished that day. I thought it would take longer. As soon as I saw those cards I thought, "Maybe I'll get my wheels back today." It's just sort of fun for me to see how personal readings turn out. So that's how I approach them, simply as an aside that may entertain and may help--or not. I try not to place too much importance on them. I find that even with politics or news events I sometimes have too much subjectivity. Still I found myself doing readings about Scott Peterson and Michael Jackson, as well as the presidential race. Maybe I'll do one on Mt. St. Helens. :D I certainly have no choice or control over that, and no one lives very near it, so I won't be overly worried that anyone will get hurt. Nevada

jmd	07 Oct 2004
A previous thread which discusses objectivity in reading that happens to also arise out of political considerations is the thread simply titled: Objectivity in readings In that thread, I probably oversimplify my view a little by writing that 'objectivity occurs when one is able to properly penetrate the object under discussion, and reflect an understanding enriched by appropriate living concepts'. Of course one brings to the reading (as one does likewise to simply looking at a tree) one's background knowledge, developed powers of observation, one's view of the world, etc.. This does not mean that one is prevented to perceive the situation at hand objectively, but rather that one will be aware that the situation at hand may be objectively perceived with limitations: there is always more to the situation, and one needs to be careful as to how much closure one places given what is presented. This is the difficulty of clear interpretation and of understanding the cards presented. In the example I gave on the Democrat's USA Candidate selection, the cards were given quite amazingly clearly - and one, if looking at these with 20/20 hindsight, may also see how the candidates were presented. What one needs to be weary of are the jumps we often do wish to make that go beyond the evidence presented - whether in the form of Tarot, or in any other field of investigation.

The Politics and Tarot thread was originally posted on 04 Oct 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.