Question about Strength & Justice
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 17 Nov 2004, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| damfino |
17 Nov 2004 |
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On the Marseilles Tarot, Strenght is the card 11 and Justice is 08. But in the Rider-Waite deck, Justice is 11 and Strenght is 08.
So my question is... does this difference affects at all the deck or the readings? I'd asume that the meaning and symbols on the card are the same, but I'm wondering if the difference in the position of these cards on the deck obeys to a certain reason, or it's just a detail with not much importance...
Thanks in advance :)
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| jmd |
17 Nov 2004 |
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For many of us, the sequence of the cards in order, as well as the numbering used intrinsically, is important.
For example, if one is used to working with the cards, there develops over time a natural inkling as to what is to follow Justice, and what precedes it.
For other people, it does not seem to be of great a concern.
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| Rusty Neon |
17 Nov 2004 |
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damfino ... There's no need to get hung up about the order of Strength and Justice or the order of any of the major arcana cards. The order has varied over time. For example, see the major arcana orders in the Viéville Tarot deck from the 17th century at this link:
http://www.tarotpassages.com/vieville.htm
Justice is 7, Strength is 9 :)
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| damfino |
17 Nov 2004 |
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Interesting stuff indeed. Thank you! :)
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| jmd |
17 Nov 2004 |
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Whether the Vieville is a good example, or instead a poor example, of a Tarot, will depend precisely on whether both imagery and order are deemed to be reflected in the deck.
What the deck shows is that there is no point in history during which we can point and say: at this time, only one pattern existed which has 78 cards as we generally know them.
To my eyes, and though I like the Vieville for both its historical and its individual merits, it deviates (or antedates the standardisation, according to some) from the impulse of Tarot.
To point to variations - and it should be remembered that many decks, both early and more recent, have no number - only highlights that there are various views, not whether those views have merit.
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| Diana |
18 Nov 2004 |
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The sequence of the cards is very important. The 22 Major Arcana tell a "story". They are an Initiatory pathway. If one meets Justice after the Chariot, or whether one meets Strength, leads us onto different paths.
The final destination therefore will not be quite the same.
It is wise to ponder on which road we wish to take. It will obviously reflect on who we are, and our individuality and the way we view the world, ourselves and the whole universe itself.
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| Rusty Neon |
18 Nov 2004 |
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The sequence of the cards is very important. The 22 Major Arcana tell a "story". They are an Initiatory pathway. If one meets Justice after the Chariot, or whether one meets Strength, leads us onto different paths.
The final destination therefore will not be quite the same.
If the only numbering difference were as between 8/11 Strength and 8/11 Justice, the final destination would still be the World card but via a different route. Yet it's interesting to ask: Would the World card's experience to the journeyer be different because of the route differences along the way? Interesting to ponder. Perhaps it depends on the nature of the journeyer and what influences occurred along the way. Sometimes the route differences may matter; sometimes they might not. Sometimes the lessons at each stop can be interdependent, sometimes not.
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| Diana |
19 Nov 2004 |
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Rusty Neon: Some people say that it is not the destination that counts, but the journey.
Because anyway... we all end up dead, right? As soon as we are born, we all have our final destination written on our foreheads. "You are going to die", it says.
What we do until then is up to us. (Maybe...)
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| divinerguy |
24 Nov 2004 |
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Rusty Neon: Some people say that it is not the destination that counts, but the journey.
Truer words have never been spoken. The result is not the goal, because the result is simply the point at which the journey concludes.
The Fool's journey is one of learning and growth. What the Fool learns along the way is far more important than merely getting there.
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| Rusty Neon |
24 Nov 2004 |
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The Fool's journey is one of learning and growth. What the Fool learns along the way is far more important than merely getting there.
I agree wholeheartedly.
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| jmd |
25 Nov 2004 |
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For newer members who may not have read Diana's wonderful description of the journey through the twenty-two Majors, it is available on Aeclectic's main section:
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| Rusty Neon |
25 Nov 2004 |
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The Bateleur [magician] doesn't do the journeying. If any figure in the major arcana is to do any journeying, it is the Fool. The Fool is the only figure in the major arcana who is depicted as walking. The Fool goes in turn through the 21 trumps and shares time and experiences with the persons portrayed in those trumps.
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| jmd |
25 Nov 2004 |
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I personally agree that in some sense, the Bateleur does not indeed do the journeying. Neither does the Fool.
Each rather depicts the progressive unfoldment that the journey takes each of us on: we are the travellers, the individuals who, slowly (and for some of us, perhaps this journey is slower than for others) metamorphosise through a cycle of transformation.
Prior to the very first thread that eventually became the study on the Atouts of the Marseille (that itself became a separate area in the Forums), a post I made in the following thread indicated the same:
Of course, this very thread is about the importance of the positioning of Justice and Strength - but the question may very well be expanded to each card and whether they have a specifically appropriate order in the sequence of integration or spiritual ascent.
For myself, I do indeed consider the ordering of importance when Tarot is considered not so much for reading purposes, but for its own sake. In readings too, however, part of our own background understanding will become reflected in the very sense as to what normally precedes and succeeds the individual card - and thus develops an important consideration.
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| noby |
28 Nov 2004 |
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From what I've read of others' opinions and reasons for associating these two cards with 8 or 11, and from my own personal thoughts on the topic, I think as with many things about the tarot, each stance is valid, and it's really a matter of one's way at looking how the Major Arcana relate to one another and/or any other sets of symbols one associates with them.
My personal take is that Strength feels right as VIII, and Justice feels right as XI. That's my guiding factor, because even though in my reasoning, I think that these placements work better with patterns of relationship I see in the cards, I can also argue the opposite.
:OL :SL :CL :WL
The most important way of looking at the placement of the cards for me is seeing how each card relates to the other cards around it, and how the cards work when they are grouped. I see lots of dynamically opposed dualities which form a seamless unity in pairs of cards in the Major Arcana, especially the early part.
For example, I see The Magician and High Priestess both as being involved in the apprehension of subtler layers of reality, and I see the Magician as reflecting manipulating and acting on that awareness, and the High Priestess as silently receiving and cultivating that awareness. They must function together - the Magician cannot act without the awareness of the High Priestess, and without the action of the Magician, the High Priestess' wisdom is impotent. Similarly, the Empress and the Emperor reflect the female/male duality of creation, the duality of fertility and potency. New life cannot be created without the participation of both. The Hierophant and Lovers both reflect the development of values, the former reflecting those which come from the outside, and the latter reflecting those which come from the internal apprehension of one's own experiences.
So now we come to The Chariot and its complement. In my opinion, I think Strength provides a better counterpart to the Chariot than Justice. I see the Chariot as representing strength generated by active force and domination. We need the energy of the Chariot when we need to actively put our foot down, take action, and sort something out that has become a mess. I find that Strength forms a nice complement to the Chariot. Whereas the Chariot represents outwardly directed force, Strength represents power generated from within, from the taming and directing of one's inner forces and resources. Strength is the power of gentleness, the yielding of a blade of grass which bends with the winds of a storm and survives, whereas a huge and rigid tree can break in the same storm. Seeing both cards as a pair helps me better understand the nature of strength, power, force, and mastery. There are two different kinds of strength, two approaches, and both are needed at different times, but to truly be strong, one must draw from and apply both.
From here on out, I see the cards as working in groups of larger numbers (save the last two cards, XX and XXI, which I also see as a pair). I see IX, X, and XI as a three-card sequence. When we actively seek solitude and inner contemplation of the nature of life (IX), if we persist, we will come upon an understanding of the subtle web of laws and forces which shape cause and effect in the universe (X). This insight informs our understanding of justice and how to apply that understanding (XI). Another way I see it is that X and XI reflect two different ways of understanding cause and effect.
Next, I see XII-XIV as a group. The Hanged Man (XII) reflects the sudden shift in perspective and sense of frozen time that comes with transformative insight. Death (XIII) reflects the death of old habits, cycles, and ways of seeing. Temperance (XIV) reflects the active work which must be done to completely incorporate this change so as not to fall back into old habits. The balance and liberating insight which comes from this process is only preliminary, though, and will lose its momentum if not constantly applied and maintained.
Next, I see XV-XIX as a group. The Devil (XV) reflects ignorance, addiction, and conditioned behavior all related to the buildup of a thick, crusty ego. The Tower (XVI) reflects the demolition of this fortress of ego which must occur for one to be able to break out of these patterns of ignorance. The Star (XVII) is the feeling of nakedness, openness, and flow which comes after the demolition of the ego and its defense mechanisms, but the work is not yet completed. The Moon (XVIII) reflects all the demons and illusions which can arise from the subconscious when we have unlocked the doors of our defenses. We cannot complete this part of the journey until we confront, receive, and accept all of these demons; otherwise, we begin building ego-fortresses again. If we do complete this work, we emerge into a state of wise innocence, with the radiant inner clarity of one who has done away with the ego and released all of one's blocks in the Sun (XIX).
Judgement (XX) and World (XXI) reflect the rebirth that results from this process. On the one hand, we are completely reconciled with our past (XX), and on the other, we are totally joyous and open to the present (XXI). The World is a state of completion and balance which does not need to be actively maintained as it was in Temperance. At this point, we have reviewed our wisdom and integrated it (XX) so that a state of balance is just naturally generated from within (XXI).
:OL :SL :CL :WL
Of course, these groups can be further reduced in some cases, or further conglomerated, depending on what one is looking at or looking for. I sometimes see the Hermit as a card reflecting the beginning of a journey to a state of realization, the cards before it having reflected forces which shape earlier development and that which compels one onto a quest for meaning. I think that one must develop inner strength which radiates from within before one can be able to set out on the long and difficult journey which begins with the Hermit.
Of course, one could see the cards in a similar way but argue differently. For example, one could argue that after one reaches the state of the Chariot, where one has realized some level of mastery as presided over by the ego, there is still a sense of something missing. Where is the justice (VIII) in the world? This question sets one on a path of discovery, and the initial insight into the way things work (X) gives one a sense of inner strength (XI) which allows one to go deeper in this journey and let one's world be turned upside-down (XII). One could argue that questions of justice come early in life, and how can one find strength from within without having yet taken the inward course of the Hermit?
:OL :SL :CL :WL
So I can see both ways of assigning these numbers to these cards as valid, and I gain wisdom and insight into the cards and their messages by examining both possibilities. However, when it comes down to it, I like Strength as VIII and Justice as XI better. I like the pair that Strength forms with the Chariot, and I like seeing Justice and the Wheel of Fortune as different insights into the nature of the world and our role in it as gained by the inward journey of the Hermit: there are things which come about in the complex web of cause and effect which we can usually do nothing about (X), but there are some things we can do something about (XI). I also like this because to me a sense of what we can do, and a sense of justice, is often the focus of early journeys of contemplation we take as teenagers or young adults. The more subtle levels of the journey come later on.
:OL :SL :CL :WL
So I say your favorite way of assigning numbers to the cards will only come from what makes sense to you on a personal level... there is no "right" or "wrong" way in my book. And I think reading and thinking about the ways other people group the cards and see the relationships and "spaces between" them can help us develop our own ways of grouping and seeing the cards and their relationships.
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| noby |
28 Nov 2004 |
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Another thing... I think it's an interesting exercise to add the digits of cards which have double digits together, and then relate the card to the card with the number its digits add up to. I at first felt this was a somewhat arbitrary exercise, but I get the impression that the folks who designed the tarot, particularly those in occult groups who re-designed the tarot (Waite and Coleman-Smith, Crowley and Harris, etc), ate this stuff up with a (golden?) spoon.
When you add together the digits of the Star (17), you come up with 8. I personally see a much stronger relationship between Strength and the Star than I do between Justice and the Star. Strength and the Star both reflect a quality of radiance which comes from within, which comes from letting go and having a sense of "flow" rather than forcefully directing things.
Then, when you add up the digits of 11, you come up with 2, the High Priestess. While one could certainly draw correlations between the High Priestess and Strength (as I posted before, people can use the same methods to come to different conclusions), I see a certain "coldness" and "distance" in both the High Priestess and Justice that speaks of a certain relationship between them. I think the RWS High Priestess looks like she might give the warm, bubbly RWS Strength girl an annoyed "look of doom"... :laugh: Justice and the High Priestess don't look like they'd give you a hug. They are stern and serious whereas there is a quality of lightness to the Star and Strength. Also, at least in the RWS, Justice and the High Priestess are both seated, while Strength and the Star are both on their feet.
Of course, I repeat, one could use this same system and way of looking to come to the opposite conclusion. I certainly don't think my assignments for these cards reflect the "one right way" any more than anyone else's does. One could argue that both the Star and Justice employ balance of some sort, and reflect the result of two different revelations. One could argue that the High Priestess and Strength both represent an intuitive, inner quality, etc, etc...
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| Rusty Neon |
28 Nov 2004 |
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Another thing... I think it's an interesting exercise to add the digits of cards which have double digits together, and then relate the card to the card with the number its digits add up to. I at first felt this was a somewhat arbitrary exercise, but I get the impression that the folks who designed the tarot, particularly those in occult groups who re-designed the tarot (Waite and Coleman-Smith, Crowley and Harris, etc), ate this stuff up with a (golden?) spoon.
When you add together the digits of the Star (17), you come up with 8.
In the tarot literature, there is a variation on this as well. Given that the trump cards are often numbered with Roman numerals instead of Arabic numbers, the following variation is possible: Instead of Theosophic reduction of a trump's Arabic numbers (as you have done), one can lop off the X or XX of a trump's Roman numerals and compare that trump to the corresponding lower-numbered trump.
e.g., The Star's Roman numeral XVII would reduce to VII, so that Star could be compared with Chariot.
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| MeeWah |
28 Nov 2004 |
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Noby: Congratulations are in order for your masterful understanding & communication of Strength & Justice. That they mirror my perception of them & others of the Major Arcana does not hurt, but this is first time I have seen such a clear & defining essay that encompasses those two cards & the others preceding their relationship.
It makes sense to me that Strength precedes Justice, just as an understanding of the conceptual of 8 is prerequisite to that of 11. They are also aspects of the same energy.
8 is two circles poised one on top of the other & thus together. 8 represents the concept of "as above, so below". An understanding the spiritual values represented by the top circle of 8 is learned through the lessons & experiences of the material/moral values represented by the bottom circle of 8. The result is the Strength of character that leads to the advancement.
11 is two 1's side by side, a paired union of opposites standing together. 11 is the first of the master numbers representing mastery on the physical plane--using the knowledge, experience & wisdom gained from the primary numbers. Justice is a union of the dual forces which commands an impartial wisdom, free of the material/moral prejudices inherent within 8.
As in many concepts, the individual understanding is what makes each journey unique as the former is a defining influence as to the latter direction & path.
Ultimately, it is all about the journey & the destination is almost an afterthought.
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| MeeWah |
28 Nov 2004 |
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Btw: that my initial exposure to Tarot was via the RWS tradition may influence my preference, but that is also based on the prior exposure to numerology, before cards.
I use Cosmic Tribe & the Nigel Jackson which are ordered 8-Justice & 11- Strength & rely on their numbers, not their titles. Learning to use the Marseilles (Grimaud) & Thoth, which are also of that order & use the same approach. Being familiar with both orders can only enhance & broaden the view.
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| jmd |
29 Nov 2004 |
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If one utilises imagery on a deck that already assumes a particular sequence, then it is indeed likely that the way it incorporates the depictions will somehow follow their preferred sequence.
In the Waite/Colman Smith [wcs] deck, I agree that it appears as though Justice forms part of the second half.
This is, however, precisely part of the argument as to the importance of sequence and ordering, in the very patterning the cards make.
Rusty Neon has already pointed out what is certainly my own preferred 'pairing', with the 'X' showing exactly what the X (tenth) card depicts: a reversal and ongoing motion. The relation that exists, then, and apart from the sequential one, with VIII can be seen to be with XVIII the Moon.
With regards to sequence, if one carefully observes how from VII (the Chariot) to VIIII (Hermit) there is something of a drawing away from active engagement, one can see how Justice fills the space (amongst other ways, of course). Likewise, from X (Wheel of Fortunae) and XII (Hanged Man), an incredible inner Force or Strength is needed: here one is really called upon to explore one's own resources in meeting the forces of destiny.
One's intellect may of course re-order any of the cards and justify any arrangement - or at least give any sequence meaning (after all, this is precisely what we do in a reading). This is a different question, however, to what, if any, is a sequence that not so much makes sense (they all can) but reflects a particular ascent and integration as one engages in the journey.
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| noby |
29 Nov 2004 |
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Thank you, MeeWah! I love your ideas about another way of looking at the numbers... It made me think of the connection between "8" and the infinity sign (which is depicted on Strength in the RWS, among other decks). Strength depicts a power which comes from an inner fearlessness and openness. Like the Star, it depicts a quality which arises from an inner nakedness, and a state of flow which comes from having released inner blocks. It is a state of equilibrium which comes from giving as freely as one receives. I think the shape of the eight, and the infinity sign, is another way of illustrating this endless cycling of energy that holds and does not lose power as long as there are no blocks along the way. Just as the two ones resemble the upright sword on the RWS Justice, as well as the two upright pillars, which clearly resemble "11" - a firm stand, as you say. Impartial, unyielding, not tipped one way or the other.
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| VegasGeorge |
29 Nov 2004 |
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Yes! It is the journey that's important. The "destination" (enlightenment) is a moving target, an ideal of perfection that is only theoretically obtainable. But, Diana is also correct, the Major Arcana tells the story of the initiates' journey. So, the placement of each card in the series is important. Which placement you prefer is a function of how you see yourself taking that journey.
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The Question about Strength & Justice thread was originally posted on 17 Nov 2004 in the Talking Tarot board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Talking Tarot, or read more archived threads.
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